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Returning Fan of Decware Products (Read 41200 times)
Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #150 - 09/08/22 at 20:32:32
 
JBz, I totally understand and I have some of those same worries from past friends with Larger than average troubles to get through.

Thanks for keeping her in your thoughts. That's what matters most.
Smiley

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Lon
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #151 - 09/08/22 at 20:42:12
 
That's fantastic. Like you, I have been lucky in love, if I've been lucky in anything at all. My wonderful second wife is like yours--she has a huge generous heart, has handed out money to strangers who were in tears, she drops anything to help someone. And for some reason she loves me as no one else ever has, she is an entertainment center who dialogs with me, sings for me, dances for me. . . we're a great match and enjoy interacting with each other. I feel sorry for so many I know who don't want to hear their wives talk, want to be out with others instead, expect their wives to be servants, are basically unhappy in relationships. I had one unhappy relationship that I was glad to quickly extricate myself from, and two very different but happy marriages.

I hope your wife continues to get stronger and healthier every day.
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Mannytheseacow
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #152 - 09/09/22 at 02:23:46
 
Glad to hear things are still on the up and up, Dirtdawg. Made my day.

Cheers to good wives, Lon. Maybe it takes a bad relationship to make one appreciate a good relationship… but the best we can do is hope everyone finds what we’ve found.
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Lon
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #153 - 09/09/22 at 13:42:44
 
Absolutely Manny, I would wish everyone the happiness I have had in marriage. I came to marriage late, age 35, and I was okay alone, but I know that I am so much better with someone and giving to someone, and am so happy to have had two opportunities--especially grateful for the second one, it's harder to find this sort of love at age 60 than 35.
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BicycleJoe Lo-Fi
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #154 - 09/09/22 at 14:53:48
 
Same Old DD, Well done,

Let us give thanks. Turn on your love light, let it shine.

Janis Joplin and the Grateful Dead,


https://youtu.be/RmPkgSIkUeM?t=107 Lo-Fi 480p


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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #155 - 09/09/22 at 15:17:25
 
Like you Lon, I have been married twice. The first try did not take, fully. It was amazing and everything I ever wanted at first.
I had married my high school sweetheart at an early age and as we both matured over the following years, things happened that were untoward in keeping with what either of us had promised.

I had promised to stay home more, but live music performance and eventually just the sound company I started had a hold on me that I HAD to follow.

You know when you are playing poker and you feel you have to draw four cards, just to see if you can save your ante? That is how it was after a couple of years. I was drawing four cards at every shuffle.
I had to just allow her to find her own way and after a while things just became untenable. I let my high school sweetheart go.
She was a wonderful woman but I was not in a place to give her what she needed from her prince charming.
She deserved more than a man who was gone all the time building a business.

I went on alone and eventually met my current and for all time wife. We had worked together in photography. Sound jobs were drying up or changing too fast for me to keep up without huge investments.
I took out my cameras and began photographing all my contacts.
I have two album back credits to my name, but most of what I did was promo shots on location, one thing many photographers at the time feared to even try. Hell, I went out to peoples' barns and took shots of real life instances.

Emmy Lou teaching a kid how to milk a cow or Reba fishing Old Hickory in shorts her Daddy would not approve, Dan Seals trying on hats in a place that had never stocked the hat he was looking for, Gatlin war dancing in a rage trying to make his brothers understand why the mix won't sell, etc.
It was all location shots. I sold a few.
I began to make a decent living again. I stuck with it.

I met this art school graduate who was teaching a class on portrait photography. I knew "everything there was to know" about cameras, lighting, composition, but wanted to make people look better in my work.
I signed up for instruction and found my future.
She became my wife, who I have talked about so much lately.

We were so much alike!
On our first real date, we were out to eat and I had one of those Tennessee quart sized iced teas to drink, which she clumsily dumped in my lap after about ten minutes. As embarrassing as it was for her, the incident endeared her to me more than she knew. I have never stood up so fast in my life or since.
Again, she's just like me, a little clumsy at times.
It worked out!
Now, thirty two years later, we're still together with both of us being as clumsy as each moment in time calls for, but together.
She is the smartest person I know and it can be scary how freeking chill she can be in an emergency situation. I thought I was cool under the gun, but she has a second state she enters when the need arises.

I did give up on being gone with the sound reinforcement business and only dabbled a bit since the late '90s. She knows my friends are important  to me and I like to help when I can.
I built a lot of big bass cabs in our old garage and she tolerated all of it and just shook her head, "Why would anyone need that kind of thing?"

Live music, baby! Live music.

I had not meant to ramble so far and wide, but I'm leaving it.

Lon, I also have empathy for many friends who have not found a partner, keep trying and keep on not getting there for some reason.

Manny, all is good, here.
We've been warned that her system will take about four to six months to be normal again, all strong and able to fight infections the right way.
So it will require diligence to keep things going the right direction.

If there is anything good to say about Covid it might be that we have been in a mode where sanitizing the entire house constantly gave us a warmer upper for what comes next for us.

Anyone who has ever succumbed to toxic shock or septic shock (both deadly without severe interventional medical measures. It means that a bacterial infection has entered the bloodstream and can now affect every organ in the body - even her heart and lungs were at risk during the worst of it) will be susceptible to a relapse for several years.


Another public service announcement portion, here:
I have been using a BP monitor for my own health for about ten years due to mine being extremely high without medication. Bad news for this old dawg, but manageable.
After seeing how we could not break her fever, I should have taken her BP, which was dropping rather severely and I did not know.
Most of us are not doctors, but put this info in your bag of tricks in case you have a family member with fever for two days.
The infection from her kidneys had begun to compromise her heart muscle function.

Just another heads up guys about how fast these things can go way wrong.

We are good for now and no fever. She is getting tired of me wanting to check it everyday!
Grin






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Lon
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #156 - 09/09/22 at 15:28:43
 
Thanks for that back story DD, it's great to know how you found your soulmate, and great that you've both weathered this storm, together.

I met my first wife on what was both our first days at the University of Chicago, though it was 17 years later before we romanced and married. Then I lost her to cancer and that halted my dream of growing old(er) with her and having that late life peace. And then when I was in my second year of full-time plus overtime taking care of my parents and my Mom dying I was able to find the girlfriend of a coworker I so admired at the end of the 'seventies before I left for Texas in '80. I had not seen her in 34 years. . . she had just been divorced a few years and didn't want to have anything to do with any man. . . but I never knew that she admired me as much back then as I admired her and in six months of occasional pestering I talked her into going to dinner with me. . . and then we were inseparable. I needed someone very much as my Mom went through her final months, and there she was, and she's been with me for the hurdles that came for my Dad as well, and she's my best friend and just such a positive force for good. We're on the same page as far as family, philosophy, politics, spirituality . . . it's a blessing to have someone at the center of my life again.

Happiness is what makes life worth living. I wish happiness for all. And for those of us on this forum, music is a part of our happiness. Enjoy some sounds today!
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #157 - 09/09/22 at 15:29:35
 
Thanks, Joe!

We have so much for which to be thankful, even without some massive trauma showing us how it could have gone. I say, find thanks and expore it.

I am more of a silver lining person right now than I have ever been.
Smiley
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Lon
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #158 - 09/09/22 at 15:34:43
 
Wow, Pigpen and Janis. Can you imagine how intense that relationship was? Didn't last long but I'm sure it burned bright with passion, both loving and angry.
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #159 - 09/09/22 at 15:41:22
 
Lon, I remember you having a really rough time with the losses which stacked up against you fairly quickly for a while.
I can not imagine the toil you both went through with your first wife's cancer.
You kept things close to your vest, but we had shared enough side story to where some of us knew what you were going through in a millimeter sized sense, anyway.

Sometimes we get through things with and without knowing what we think we need to do next.

I am not sure, but I am probably going to be "silver lining" guy for a good while after all this. I am blessed.
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Lon
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"Love without
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #160 - 09/09/22 at 15:45:28
 
Yes, keep that silver lining inside out and wear it out. My life has taught me to enjoy as much as I can, be as positive and kind as I can, because nothing is given, and much is taken away. We are made with love and we are here for love and those that love and are loved are the happiest. I'm so glad that you and Ms Dawg are on the other side of this incident. And that you know how to get through things together. . . they don't really teach you that in school. Wink Here's to a healing weekend ahead.
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #161 - 09/09/22 at 16:13:27
 
As much as I want to celebrate and probably get too much going, this will be a week end of rest for all. I have not mentioned much about them but our kids are still in rough shape over all this.
Not sure my son, the older, gets the full picture, but my daughter feels the full impact of the fact that she almost lost her mom a couple of weeks ago and she is still trying to "do everything" she can to help. I applaud her instinct!

My son is a bit like like me, more of a Marmaduke in many ways. His kindest efforts often "break things," but he does not show his internals much. He is struggling in his way.

It's time for a little more rest before we celebrate the best outcome possible.


Life is good!

Smiley Smiley
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #162 - 09/09/22 at 16:43:38
 
We have been sharing some music, Lon, but to her needs, TV or Roku steaming is fine. Convenience wins in her book.
I have been using my Denon AV receiver with the small Klipsch living room system for most of it. It's OK for movies.
Not what I seek for music, other than the company.





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Lon
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"Love without
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Philip K. Dick

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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #163 - 09/09/22 at 17:04:11
 
My wife would rather watch than listen as well. Which makes music that much more special to me, and "my" thing.
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #164 - 09/12/22 at 12:55:43
 
I know I had said I was going to give the F15s a full try, but after the second time bringing the actual 42" by 33" baffles into the room, I am convinced that they are just too damn big for any amount of comfort left for living in this tiny room.

I am so close to mounting them.
But, I am toying with the idea of scaling them down to 36" tall. I know, it seems as if I am pussing out, but these are so damn big and I don't have a big room. Big Betsy might be more of a big gal than I can support!
Still waffling here.

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HockessinKid
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #165 - 09/12/22 at 14:42:31
 
FWIW, Caintuck Audio's smaller sized magnum hardwood baffles (1.5" thick) work just great in my 13.5' x 15.5" listening room. Steve even pointed out that the soundstage height of Randy's baffles did not suffer. May be worth considering.

HK
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #166 - 09/13/22 at 01:16:54
 
Kind of where I am going here, HK.

Thanks!

It's not the height as much as the width that is a bit much. I have already routed out the place for the driver.
My plan is to do a little math scaling and place a cardboard face to keep my driver center and just make the baffles a bit smaller overall.

I know the larger baffle is better and if I had the space, even bigger than Big Betsy would be the direction I would go.
When you're down to four close walls though, something's gotta give.

If I remember correctly, these dimensions that Steve published were scaled up from Randy's Betsy Baffles.
I should be able to go back some and find a fit for my room.
Hopefully, still in keeping with some of the Randy magic I have heard about.

Thanks, Pal! I am kind of committed to this DIY thing for right now.
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #167 - 09/13/22 at 13:11:19
 
I took a break last night from my F15 baffles.
I have not mentioned in a while how cool my little Fisher amp came out after getting it back togather.
It really has a pleasantly warm sound from an SS design, made in '72. This is the one I got for free at a yard sale because it was blown. I fixed it. It works great! It is what it was meant to be again.

I have pulled out my biamp/quadamp Crowns from my garage mono stack, eliminated four of the 15" now only using four, kept the two 18" and two horns and the four bullets. Replaced everything electronic with just the Fisher 90WPC receiver.
Lots of series and parallel drivers ending at 10.6 Ohms for the old Fisher to drive in stereo.
It is still a mono stack, being that all the speakers are touching in one small corner, but now driven by just this one receiver. It allowed me to ditch many cable and adapter connections.
Now it's just Bluray player to Receiver to speaker cables. Computer on a seperate input if I want to use a hard drive.

I bundled a couple of caps to end up with a First Order cross to the horns, dropped them down quite a bit with resistance. I might add a coil to roll off the lows when I get to looking closer at them.
I no longer have a "voicing" option from an electronic crossover.
Really the only thing I have lost is a little LF I had using a low cross point between the 18s and the 15s. Now they are all series parallel. There is plenty of OOoomth just from the radiating area advantage.

I have a tone control on the Fisher if I find myself wanting some help with a certain recording, but I am going to use it this way for a while at least.

I was using my Technics TT for a while but for the second time, it has quit turning. Irritating!
It's actually considered a DJ table (1210) which I installed a nicer AT cartridge, but it sounds fine when it works.

So this will be my garage "radio" for a while. It has a big healthy sound to it already without much tweaking, yet.
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #168 - 09/17/22 at 21:55:57
 
I have put power to my F15s in a 36" tall baffle.

They need some break in time!

They sound thin and tinny compared to my other speakers I have enjoyed for so long, now changed for the better a couple months back.

Even the 8" Visatons, now about 12 yrs old, completely blow them away for clarity and substance!

When I was keeping a sound reinforcement system going, I would usually buy ten or twenty drivers at once and set eight or ten on the floor with a ten or fifteen Hz signal for a week before I deployed them to "real life" just to break them in some before the Big Game began.
I got the need for "break in" in the '70s!

One of my old retired Phase Linear 700 suffered this duty most of the time. I just let them burn for a week or two at high excursion using what ever sine wave frequency did not rattle too many things in the shop at the time. Then a couple of nights at near half power with pink noise. Ready to ROCK!

I did not do this with these drivers and honestly, they need some time to break in before they can show me something. I had the time, but I have been distracted a bit from what I think should have  been fun time.
All is good.

The upper end surprises me. Such non beamy highs coming from these things is almost unsettling. SO far I hate them! No authority below 1KHz. Kind of sound castrated.

It feels like a step backward to me, but I am not so naive to think that they should impress me right out of the box. They might need to be moved some more.

Kind of wish I had not wasted a month with them just sitting in a box, but shown the same respect I had for my old JBLs. Let them rip on the floor for a while and then give them a listen.


In keeping with an open mind, I am still ready to be impressed, but not there yet.

I have about four hours on these new drivers, so more to come.
I just have no way to bring them up to snuff more quickly these days. I will just have to continue as they are for a while until they loosen up some.
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Mannytheseacow
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #169 - 09/18/22 at 01:26:32
 
Hmm, mine blew me away right out of the box, and only got better with age, DD. I wonder if it’s the synergy with your amp? What are you driving them with?
Before I sold my Hegel I would connect it to my f-15s once in a while to remind me what my zkit could do that the Hegel couldn’t. The f15s haven’t been as impressive with other amps in my collection.
I suppose that’s part of the suspense and expectations you get when you hear rave reviews about stuff though, too.
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #170 - 09/18/22 at 01:37:11
 
I am using two old Mono'ed SE84Cs from early stage '05 manufacture.

I have used those amps below two ohms with two 15" and a full range per side for ages. That sounded fine! (Have you ever tried Visatons?)

Recently, I have taken one of the 15s from each side off and driven it with a seperate amplifier, bringing the load on the Zens closer to 4 ohms. Man was that awesome!

Anyway, I am not saying they sound bad, just castrated. I also understand that they are brand new and it is too early to judge them fully.
Besides, I am comparing them on their own with a dual fifteen plus eight inch full range per side set up.
I am biased. I miss the full spectrum.

Give me a week or two or three and maybe I'll see the light.
They just seem weak to me right now. Efficient, but tinny. Small transistor radioey compared to the richness I have been used to to hearing for so long.
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jec3504
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #171 - 09/18/22 at 02:23:43
 
Hey DD,

Broke mine in on my SS amps. They need some break in time to shine. Think cables play a big part with these speakers. What rectifiers are you using in your amps? Have some thoughts on that as well.

Joseph
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Mannytheseacow
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #172 - 09/18/22 at 02:28:50
 
I haven’t tried Visatrons, DD, but reading your delight with them over and over on this forum makes me want to give them a try. It’s somewhere on my to-do list.   Smiley

I agree Joseph, tubes and cables both made a difference with them too.
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #173 - 09/18/22 at 02:56:33
 
Taking a hint, Manny, I might hook them up to my McIntosh for a few days and show them some gumption when the house is mine.
Good suggestion.
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #174 - 09/18/22 at 03:24:28
 
Joseph, I bought two dozen from a member here of the Sovtek 5Y3GT a few years ago. I have those in both amps right now.
I won't say they are great but very dependable and seem to be quite similar in use. I know I had said I was shy on rectifiers before, but it was because I only had several of one kind.
I actually prefered my old RCA 5U4Gs, but pricey now. I originally bought them for $40, now over $150 per.

I won't change more than one thing at a time, though, trying to sort things.
I am not changing my amps, except to change them out for a different amp, temporarily, which I AM contemplating.
I just two months ago ripped everything to the bones and I love what happened.

I will need time to find what I am looking for in this set up.
The uppers with these drivers is amazing and I am going to give them a go.
Probably going to beat the crap out of them in the near future as I break them in.
When the house is mine.

Everyone at work and me alone, I intend to see these drivers move. The Zens can not make them move. My McIntosh can make them move! ... or these and twenty more at the same time. I have seen it happen.

Kind of following your line of thinking, Joseph.


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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #175 - 09/18/22 at 10:58:41
 
You have the F15s in a 36" baffle and you are not getting any bass? That's surprising. I would give them a bunch of time with music playing. I do recall them taking many hundreds of hours to really sing. However, 10-20 hours should be plenty to show you what direction they're going.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #176 - 09/18/22 at 16:21:39
 
Everyone is right.
I switched over to my McIntosh amp after my last posting and left them going all night playing an old rock mix from Tidal.
I placed a sofa cushion leaning in front and behind and two thick blankets over them and stepped out to determine how much power I could get away with and let them "soak" all night.
Close to twenty hours now and there is a remarkable improvement already.

However, I am home alone right now and have them really cranked to about fifty watt peaks, rockin' out and they actually sound much better than the first few electrons were doing. No more cushions!

I hear some bass! I am still most impressed with the high frequency range these fat boys put out. And it sounds nice!

Still not abusing them, just for the next two hours, while the ladies are gone shopping, these drivers will feel my love, which is building.

These are some of the most stiffly suspended speakers I have ever seen.
What I am hearing now with massive power behind them, they sound really good, but I am bumping around on foot. It is too loud for me to sit casually and give them a close listen.

It's almost like when you launch the first boat you ever built into the water, you keep it lashed to the dock, because you don't even know if it floats yet. And if you're smart you lash things up at an angle to keep any damage to a minimum.
That is where I am.
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Mannytheseacow
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #177 - 09/18/22 at 17:10:35
 
Glad to hear they are rounding out for you, DD.
As a quite opposing experience Friday night I was streaming Emancipator’s Baralku https://open.spotify.com/album/6QAzFh5hipRH2Ix5F6PFA4?si=ahzwaBjcRoqFWRnMCdZESQ I kept turning the volume down and it just kept getting better and better. 2 watts and about 55 db and the bass was so deep, focused, and beautifully sublime. A door opened up to another dimension and I just fell in. It was wonderful to be so fully immersed in the music and not destroying my ears. I’m just blown away with how much LF extension these f15s can give with little power and low volumes.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #178 - 09/18/22 at 17:50:06
 
YES!
Manny, I want to get back to that. I listen late mostly and not very loud at all, since most of the house is asleep or trying to be when I have MY Magic Time.

Ladies have returned home from shopping and after cooling the power jets and helping with the grocery load, I am sitting just listening and I have to say that, after a little over twenty hours, these drivers have changed dramatically.
Still very stiff and constrained, but no longer sounding weak or transistor radioey.

If they continue to move in this same direction, I think I might just learn to love them.
As I mentioned, I wasted a month when I could have been burning them in, but sometimes real life distracts from easy fun times.

On that other front, everything is still running strong and clear sailing ahead for now!

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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #179 - 09/18/22 at 17:51:29
 
Yes, 2 Decware SET watts and high efficiency speakers and low volumes makes great sound and enjoyable listening. I think lower volumes do not excite many room modes so less outside interference in your listening space.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #180 - 09/19/22 at 11:57:19
 
Glad they are opening up for you. They should keep evolving for a while.

For many years I've been a proponent of giving the drivers a workout every couple of months. Get some hearing protection and let it rip.

Once upon a time I threw a raging party. The music was being served up by Watt Puppy 7s driven by VTL MB450's. 2 or 3 tubes blew during the party, we were playing loud. A few days later I was blown away by how good the stereo sounded. The speaker had 1,000 hours of them easy. Now I find it a good practice to get the drivers pumping from time to time.

Quote:
A door opened up to another dimension and I just fell in.


Such an amazing experience! Activating a different level of consciousness. If someone hasn't experienced something similar it's a tough one to convey. I like your description.

Lazb, I agree. Keeping the volume low keeps the room distortion low. If it hasn't been experienced it's a hard one to wrap your head around. The 2 watts thing really messed with the mainstream understanding... until it's experienced, then the floodgates open.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #181 - 09/19/22 at 17:05:38
 
Thanks, Groovy.

I have actually moved them out to my garage/shop for some more exercise and replaced my normal speakers for listening.
Approaching around forty hours (I did not start a stop watch) they are sounding a little better than at first. Still really stiff and hindered, but a little better.

I pulled the wires from my mono stack and hooked these F15s up to my garage '70s Fisher receiver and brought up the bass tone control some. I have them about three feet apart, but they are "imaging" some. The sound is quite a bit larger than the distance between the drivers.
So far so good and I did this so they could just play all day and night without my worrying about keeping any workers up with my overnight  "noise."


I might lean toward your theory about giving our speakers some pasture time once in a while.

An analogy: my grandfather used to have horses pull his feed grain carts during harvest all day when I was a kid. He had a big truck, but said that the truck contaminated the grain for livestock feed and preferred the horses still. This was '63 or '64.
After a full day of pulling the huge carts the first thing both horses would do, after being freed from the yokes, was to just rip and run for half an hour or more.  
Lather themselves up and then find the water and damn near empty the trough over a few minutes. Then roll in the dirt for a while and do it all again. Pulling the cart (like listening low to our speakers) was work, but running was fun!
My cousins and I had the job of currying out the dried mud from the lathered up horses and putting them to barn for the night.
Thankfully we do not have to curry our speakers after letting them run a bit.
Grin

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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #182 - 09/20/22 at 12:44:44
 
Steve said, " ... no one needs response out to 40kHz listening to Black Sabbath."

This might be the most True Statement ever made.
I'm not just talking about two generations of popular internet traffic on any forum, anywhere, but going back some to before books were available to the masses and when writing was done on soft clay with pointed sticks.
Maybe even back to when naked guys filled reeds with charcoal to blow a negative image of their hand on a cave wall.
This statement strikes me as just that true!

/absurd humor

I was buying some reel to reel tapes in good faith back then of my favorites.  
I got home one day to find that my Steppenwolf "Monster" and "Steppenwolf Seven" were sold at 3&3/4 IPS.
They came in a the same box as the ones I had been buying at 7&1/2 IPS, but, inside there was half the tape and smaller reels.
The industry kind of slipped this in on us.

I became a more careful buyer that day.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #183 - 09/20/22 at 13:22:57
 
I have to say these F15s have changed by huge amounts since I first heard them.
With almost three days of near constant use, including some high power use, I am hearing some much more balanced tones coming out these.

The last time I bought Fostex drivers they seemed to settle in to "pretty good" after one day.
Not so with these F15s.
But this morning, I am hearing some bass. In fact I cut the Fisher (burn in amp) tone controls back to flat and I believe these drivers are settling in nicely.

My tainted experience, using literally hundreds of (similar to each other) factory fresh JBL drivers over the years, which reach designed specs in a couple of days, has possibly set my hopes for these a little higher than it should have been.

BUT, we are making progress. I like them now and I hated them at first. I'm not getting anymore "headache" frequencies in the mid bass from trying to push them too fast.
I'm going to give them until the week end with constant music going through them and allow them another visit into the house and a closer listen.

Thinking about tuning in a radio station with some of the ridiculous fake boosted, ringing bass Hip Hop, but I will have to do that when I'm gone.
I would actually rather listen to pink noise than that, although some of their commercials are funny as hell.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #184 - 09/21/22 at 11:31:42
 
DD,

That's a cool story you shared. Be careful not to say put out to pasture though Cheesy !

I usually use the music I like to listen to when breaking in speakers. I will throw in a specialty burn in track from time to time.

I use the XLO burn in track it's the only one I have.

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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #185 - 09/22/22 at 05:26:23
 
Hey DD,

With a nice triangle set up in your listing room. Play around with the toe-in. A nice comfortable volume they should sound like your wearing room size headphones. Read somebody describe them like that. I would agree. They sound good turned up in a larger room, but not needed to perform in an intimate setting.

Found a good rectifier from ebay you might want to try if you get the itch. Good alternative to RCA 5U4Gs. Tung Sol Type 80 all in $21.71 a pair. They looked like they were never used. Don't think I would buy any high dollar tubes from ebay, but very happy I gave it a try.

Keep a eye on the classifieds, some spectacular members might have some good RCA 5U4Gs for sale.  

Good luck sir
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #186 - 09/22/22 at 12:47:26
 
Come on, Groovy, I'll bet you have a history or maybe stable half full (if you are like me and can never part with things easily) of decent speakers you have "put out to pasture" over the years.
I think we all do.

Taking your advise, though, because I might be "tarred and feathered" for some of my choices. As much as I would like to like my Klipsch, I find them to be some of the most fatiguing speakers I've heard and I find them to be skiddish and peaky.

I had forgotten about the XLO test disc, but I can't find mine. Don't even remember which version I own.
I took that Alien Halloween part off YouTube and made a CD of just that and played it with boosted bass on repeat for two days, thanks to your recommendation.
I wrapped them loosely in bubble pack and threw my new lawnmower box over them to tone it down some and just let them make noise.

These are coming together nicely. I hear LOTS more bass with music playing!

This morning I did a "free" (not free, still mounted) resonance test and I am at 78Hz and 82Hz for "free resonances" with them sitting out on my sawhorse table in mostly open air. I did that before sun up and I hope no one noticed.
That is not to specification, yet, though.
I believe these should have a Fs of about 50hz, if I can recall correctly.

I was not exaggerating when I said that my mono Zens could not make these diaphragms move with 5W. I had to put about thirty watts into them to see any cone movement when I first hooked them up.

They are a lot different now, but I still think more time with some power up is in order.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #187 - 09/22/22 at 13:22:12
 
Thanks for the heads up Jec!
I would love it if you could share a link to the eBay listing with which you had good luck in purchasing.

I have an armload of ONE kind and four more I have acquired recently, but without leaning too far into avarice, I want more choices as I move forward.

I am still breaking in these drivers out in my garage/shop for now. I plan to invite them back into the house this Saturday or Sunday.
They have loosened up a lot!

Testing some this morning, I know I am no where near where I need to be, but I mentioned they are actually sounding more smooth and very nice above 100Hz. I like what I am hearing, just using a bluray player and a '70s reciever to burn them in.
In fact, if I was willing to use a woofer system that approached 100Hz, I might really like these. Actually, I DO like them. I am getting there.

My current set up I am using my low woofers below 45hz and getting a rich full sound.
I have added a second amplifier and an electronic crossover, though. Not so simple and Zen.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #188 - 09/23/22 at 05:05:18
 
Quote:
Thanks for the heads up Jec!
I would love it if you could share a link to the eBay listing with which you had good luck in purchasing.


Wish it was that easy. I would buy 5 more sets. After our conversation back in August found these on Ebay auctions. I was the only bidder. Nice tubes worth the money. Heads up if your looking for a reasonably priced rectifier. Some listed on ebay for double the price. They look a little worn out. Kind of a crapshoot. Need to find a good source.

1957 Tung Sol "ST" formed, black plates type 80's. They are matching date codes of 322752.

Sorry about not having a better source. Keep your eyes open, they are nice sounding 80 rectifiers.

Joseph
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #189 - 09/23/22 at 15:35:20
 
Don't be sorry. You've given me reason and direction to continue my search.

Thanks.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #190 - 09/23/22 at 15:50:57
 
Starting yesterday afternoon I set my laptop next to my F15s and played 4K Audiophile Heavy Bass tracks from YouTube on repeat. Just four compilations but heavy drums and even some LOW synth bass on one of them.

I had them facing each other, wrapped in about six layers of bubble pack with a big box over them and bricks on top of the box. Not much sound escaped and I just let them play music instead of noise.

Curiousity at its best, I "unpacked" and set them up to see where I am.
Holy crap!  They sound great!
Shy on lows still, but not testing anything today, just giving them a listen is intended for later on.
I put the YouTube playlist back on for a while.


Back inside for some pop sounds for now with family.
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Mannytheseacow
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #191 - 09/23/22 at 23:42:00
 
You certainly get an E for effort, DD. Actually an A+. The f15s start rolling off at 50hz and really become almost nothing below 40hz. At least that’s my experience in my room. I’m not keeping track but I’ve easily got 1000 hours on mine. They definitely need a sub or W15 if you want that room shaking bottom; the f15s don’t do that.
But if you position them properly, sit back with your beverage of choice (or not) and chill in front of them, holy smokes they are great.  I listen to a wide variety of music, from ethnic to classical, metal, jazz, punk and hip hop… even with electronic music I really don’t find them lacking because the sweet spot is just so good.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #192 - 09/24/22 at 14:08:45
 
Manny, I have always had an impatient bone running the length and width of my soul.
Not always an advantage, but in keeping up with the Big Boys, that effort I make has proven to be a benefit over time.

I can't just sit and listen to shitty sounding speakers, awaiting the moment when they come together as a gestalt or something I can finally enjoy.

I have tried many ways and found that forcing uncooperative drivers into spec requires making them eat what they throw up.
I know that sounds more like the whip than the carrot. But, when you have a set of drivers that do not move, they need to move and then move more.

At first, I was seriously put aside by the fact that even Beatles fluffy bass tracks could not make these drivers move at all with my Zens.
I even tried to move them with my hands, but the cones are so light and delicate, I began to worry that my thumb would punch right through the paper before they moved a millimeter.

This was a bit new to me.

I listened to them more carefully last night and they are smooth, detailed,  extended and very dynamic, all of which must happen before they can even get in line for me.
Drums on these drivers sound really good and vocals, even reverb in recordings is all coming to life.

Today is another family day and I have ribs slow smoking on the grille, so not so much listening, but they are still playing bass heavy music.

I want to see that resonance frequency closer to the 50hz specification. There is only one way to get there. Power.

I am sticking with these "heavy bass" Audiophile Hi-Res YouTube tracks for today to present them with power and hopefully end with more movement.

Sorry for typos. I tried to respond quickly so I can get back to my fire.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #193 - 09/25/22 at 06:04:09
 
Not much change since this morning on the F15s, but I faced them toward each other again for the night, about a half inch apart. Covered them.

I have about a week on them, now.
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On the path with
Decware.

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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #194 - 09/25/22 at 15:35:37
 
DirtDawg- Drivers Schmivers...on to more important things. What were you smoking and how did they turn out??? What is your smoker set up? Old skool or modern set up with minute by minute updates to your phone? I love these lengthy posts that get deep into this hobby but had to interject a sharp turn. Keep the saga coming sir and happy retirement / listening. Chris
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #195 - 09/27/22 at 11:37:49
 
SOUNDSTAGE
DETAIL
SPECIFIC, STABLE PLACEMENT OF INSTRUMENTS
SMOOOOTH SPECTRUM RESPONSE
CRISP AND EDGY DYNAMICS
REVERB WITH AIR
VOCALS WITH BREATH, BREADTH AND EVEN LIP MOVEMENT

Sorry, but I get bogged down trying to use typical "audiophile" terms like "fluidity" and such since some of that is not how I think of music enjoyment.
Rather, I internally ask myself, does it sound REAL?

I am hearing all of this and after just over a week from hating these F15s, I am falling quickly for their charms.

I am getting there!
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #196 - 09/27/22 at 12:24:13
 
“does it sound real” is my only objective. I’m there! I knew you would fall for the F15s in time. Never heard the F15s…I have the 10” Crystals. Looking forward to an introduction on the 7th.

Smiley
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #197 - 09/27/22 at 12:47:03
 
Hi, Chris,

Enough fun stuff, back to real life now, eh? Good call.

I use an ''old skool'' Weber kettle grille. I have one of those gimmicky looking devices that can hold six racks of ribs in an upright on the sides fashion, greatly increasing (triple) the number of racks you can smoke at once.
I also use two of those little baskets which hug the sides of the kettle and contain the charcoal next to the edge allowing much more control of temperature and the entire center can to be used for indirect heat.
I keep the fire going with a little wood added as needed to the fire. This time I used peach wood.

When we found that we were losing our old house to the city expansion project, one of the things I wanted to take with me was the large, overgrown, done producing well peach trees that were twenty years old. I cut them down and moved the wood for just this purpose. Hey! Priorities! I left shelves, installed speakers and even some appliances, but NOT my trees!

My Weber has a thermometer built in, but I do not trust it fully. I use a free standing one inside near the meat. I use a large cookie sheet directly under the meat to catch some of the drips for making gravy later. This also shields the meat from the direct heat more fully. Below that on the fire grid I place a cake pan which I keep full of water to ensure nothing dries out over a six hour slow smoking cook time. This also helps in keeping the temperature more constant.
I do the same when I cook a brisket that requires twice as long to cook fully.

This week end I had said it was a family time. It worked out great.
I have a (favored) nephew who has moved to Alaska this past spring, in the thick of it still that far north, but they have settled now.

My wife's brother and sis-in-law, parents of the nephew, were planning a trip to Alaska in June. A week before they had planned to leave for the largest trip they had ever made in their lives, their pick up truck was t-boned by a quarry truck, injuring them somewhat.
The truck rolled and stuff, but I think the "million air bags" in modern vehicles saved their lives.

Now they are well on the mend and making the rounds to all the family. My wife has five brothers. She and three others live here in town still where they grew up. Kind of late to be heading to Alaska this year for a casual drive, so they have put off the trip until next spring.
I hope. That's the talk.

Anyway, I smoked six large racks of pork ribs for the Welcome Meal and they were fabulous!

If your question was rhetorical, sorry, but I like talking about grilling meat.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #198 - 09/27/22 at 13:00:01
 
JBzen, as I said, "does it sound real" is the ONE question that is constantly hurled around my mind when assessing anything in my sound systems over all these years.

Any time I am trying to figure if something sounds "better" I still impose that standard upon my judgment. Yeah, these cables have more highs, but is it REAL?

By the introduction on the 7th, do you mean attending Decfest, where you'll get to hear the real ones done right?
I look forward to more about how others are using and enjoying these drivers.
As I usually do, I had not heard them (I bought my first Zen amp in '05 sight unseen, because I was curious to know what was going on here, then I bought two more) and I just jumped in one day. OK. I have to hear this for myself. What is all the talk about here?

I notice lots of folks have these drivers set up in various ways.
To me, such a "forgiving" component that still offers the user great pleasure speaks volumes about that component.

I had to see and hear for myself. I like what I am hearing, now.
I will opt for a subwoofer system of some sort before I am done, but for now they are playing raw and naked and sounding really good and REAL. AND, that is me using a mock up of MDF/plywood sandwich baffles, 2 1/4'' thick with construction lumber bases.

I am considering an "H-Frame" Linkwitz style of sub system. I have never built one for myself, although something similar. I worry about all his (Linkwitz) talk about equalization, though.

If I am to introduce more electronics again, I might modify the Betsy format and add my floor slam ideas to my subwoofer system.
That was the best open baffle bass I have ever had, but again, not so simple.
Not so Zen because adding more components moves me away from total Zen.

One of the reasons I think it works so well is because I am projecting the lows in two angles compared to the one way duo-cardiod patterns of standard dipole propagation.
It is not an inverse Blumlein, because I am only using and offering one plane of differential, but it does make a huge difference.
I think, adding an H Frame sub woofer system, I will need two to maintain a stereo presentation, "sideways" will offer that third plane of differential.

I have to say again, that the idea of floor slam in close listening rooms came from one of Steve's papers. I just adapted it to my room. The advantage came from, I think, from offering the room two planes of cardiod patterns which both enhance the good and nearly cancel unwanted room modes and nulls. If it seems like I am repeating myself, it is because I am repeating myself.
Grin
There is something to this.

I am not saying I am onto anything new, just finding ways to adapt the concepts to my small space.
I'm not convinced that there is anything new, yet.
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SE84Cs Mono'ed, Lii Audio F15 OB, W15 "H" Frame Subwoofer, McIntosh MC2500, Lazarus Pre, Dual TT, Ortofon, Kleenline Iso Power, Revox, Crown R-R, Pioneer Elite Digital Source
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JBzen
Seasoned Member
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Posts: 1343
Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #199 - 09/27/22 at 16:02:38
 
SODD,

I think looking for "floor slam" by adding subs to the F15s in the ZF15L configuration is going to muck-up the "does it sound real" aspect.

Yes the 7th refers to Decfest starting date this year.

John
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AMC CD8b>XO3>Cambridge CXN2>ZDAC>ZBOX>braided silver/occ> Zrock2>CSP2+>SE84 milflex copper 25th>9AWG silver/copper braid>lii Crystal 10 in Huijgen cabinets. Ortofon 2M Black>JVC QL-F4/Otari MX5050B2>ZP3. Isolation. AC filtering. Room treatment.
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