Forums - How much better is the sound with a pre?

Verified Member

Posts: 14

How much better is the sound with a pre?
02/13/22 at 02:33:36

Hello fellow Decwear lovers

I received my se84UFO in early December and I love it. The thing that surprised me the most was the grip it had on the bass, including the dynamics. Drums sound incredible that's for sure.

I have a Auralic Altair G1 streamer, and it's the only input device that I use.... Exclusively streaming Tidal. I have that hooked up directly to the Decwear amp without a pre-amplifier. I never thought I would actually need a preamp because I will only ever stream on this system. But now I'm curious as to what to expect from a sound improvement.

Could anyone be kind enough as share their own personal experience as to the improvements I could potentially expect to hear. How good is the Decware volume attenuator anyway? Is it just basically something to get you by?

Thanks so much for any input.

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hdrider

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On the path with
Decware.

Posts: 695

Re: How much better is the sound with a pre?
Reply #1 - 02/13/22 at 16:34:42

AudioNumber3- When I bought our Rachael amp, i added the four input option trying to not use a pre-amp. It worked fine most of the time but I felt that the option of channel balance was something I had to have. Ended up buying a CSP3 off of a forum member, sent it to Steve for the warranty (and base change) and now personally wouldn't consider being without it. My main focus was records (ZP3 & ZMC1 are tough to beat) and CD/music DVD's. I set up Pandora for my bride mostly as background music, I don't stream at your level. I do use it to research new music I read about, but if I like something I'll buy the records/CD's. Sound Improvement...adding the pre allows a lot more control of what is referred to on this forum as ''gain riding'' and of course channel balance. Adjusting the input level and output level and and overall volume is priceless in terms of adjustability. You can get really OCD about all of this, or just kind of set and forget and it still always sounds amazing. The ability to roll different tubes in the Decware gear has allowed us to expereince music & video like never before. I will also be interested in what others chime in with. Keep us posted on your direction and where you end up. Happy listening, Chris.

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CSP3, Rachael, ZP3, ZMC 1, Sony ES Bluray, Schitt Bitfrost DAC,Sota Star TT w/ FR-64, Hana SL Low Output Moving coil, Omega 7XRS Mk 2 walnut, DeepOmega 8 sub, Morrow Audio PH3 and MA3 IC's, Gamma Electrostatic phones.

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chapsjon

Seasoned Member

Posts: 185

Re: How much better is the sound with a pre?
Reply #2 - 02/14/22 at 04:17:52

Chris nailed it! There are some on the forums that have talked about times that direct connection with no pre-amp is better. I do run this way on my second system, but it is really for economic reasons.

Riding the gain is real. Somehow, it enables one to find a sweet spot of gain at any volume. Maybe even more important is the channel balance. The CSP3 gives complete control over L/R input gain, L/R output gain, and master gain. The combination of these provides tremendous ability to customize your sound in a way that works best with your source, room, etc.... Many cannot place speakers equidistance from side walls, for example. A CSP3 allows you to adjust for best sound with multiple variables.

The "bad news" may be if one has OCD. For some, it may distract from the music because they are always fiddling to get it right. For others, fiddling is part of what they love about this hobby. And for still others, they have the ability to make adjustments I mentioned earlier, but then leave it alone.

I'm not going to go so far as to say a CSP3 or pre is a must. For me, it's not. Decware amps sound great without a pre. However, once you've experienced the added possibilities, it is difficult to go back to not having them.

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LR:Mini Torii+Wright WPP100 phono, CSP2+SE84UFO, Pioneer Exclusive M4, Accuphase E-303,Graham Slee Jazz Club, Technics SL-1200MK3D Grace F-8 & Nagaoka MP-110, Yamaha NS-1000M, KEF Reference 101, Sony SS-5050
BR: SE84C+, ZP1 phono, Decware 945
JVC QL-7 Shure V15

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Audionumber3

Verified Member

Posts: 14

Re: How much better is the sound with a pre?
Reply #3 - 02/14/22 at 15:02:15

Thanks so much guys for your response. I've never heard of gain riding before and I've been an audiophile lurking on forms for quite some time.

To be honest though, I'm not sure I understand the whole gain ridng enough to convince me to put an order in and wait the two years to get one. I have my own dedicated stereo room, and I can position the speakers anyway I want. Also I have panels on the walls, some absorption on the ceilings and so on. What I'm saying is, I can definitely change things to my liking more than most can...

My streamer also has a crazy number of adjustments that I can make. I can independently adjust the volume on each Channel and even add millisecond delays for time compensation. Along with a full eight filter parametric EQ.

I guess what I'm looking for is, what sound characteristics can I expect from a good preamp added to my system. More slam? A more dense sound? Increase soundstage? Stuff like that....

Probably the thing that bothers me the most about this preamp is the fact it doesn't have a remote. Being a person who streams 100% of the time, and also enjoys listening to playlists and trending songs.... A remote control is pretty important. I've even tried looking online for some sort of separate motorized controller that could turn the knob for me from my seating position...LOL. I haven't found anything like that so, maybe I should invent one.

Again guys, your input is greatly appreciated.

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Lon Seasoned Member "Love without guts is worthless!" Philip K. Dick Posts: 23464	Re: How much better is the sound with a pre? Reply #4 - 02/14/22 at 15:45:04 I would say the biggest sonic advantages are tailoring density of the sound and the dynamics of the presentation.
Back to top	HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1 IP Logged

lazb Seasoned Member Posts: 374	Re: How much better is the sound with a pre? Reply #5 - 02/14/22 at 16:36:12 Decware switch box available with remote now! be fine with pre. ZTPRE available with remote volume control, too.
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Archie

Seasoned Member

Posts: 2731

Re: How much better is the sound with a pre?
Reply #6 - 02/14/22 at 17:24:51

Weight, density. I'm not sure if these words convey what I mean but it's a sort of know it when you hear it kind of thing and don't miss it until you have it and lose it kind of thing. Other Decware gear may offer something similar but it's still a 2 year wait. Or do you research and watch for used gear. It come up but goes fast.

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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.

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Doug

Seasoned Member

Posts: 274

Re: How much better is the sound with a pre?
Reply #7 - 02/14/22 at 17:39:37

My CSP3 provides the following…….

Improved sound staging in every important category; width, depth, height,
location of performers, etc.
Flexibility to tailor sound with tube changes; I’m currently using a
Mullard e88cc input, Russian 6n1p output, Sophia Electric 274B Aqua
rectifier
More natural/real sizing of instruments and singers
Increased dynamic capability of entire system
Timbre of instruments closer to real
Ability to significantly alter density of music on the fly
Allows for balance adjustments to compensate for room issues and hearing
deficits
These are a few of the most notable benefits of having a CSP3 in my specific system. Though the CSP3 is the only Decware product I am currently using, it is a fundamental part of my set-up that I would hate to be without. The CSP3 is the oldest individual component in my rig, which actually says a lot, as I have no problem changing out components.
Hope this helps.
Doug

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Jay’s CD2T-Mk3
Denafrips Pontus II
ZROCK2 25th Mods
CSP3 25th & Custom Mods
PAP Quintets with Voxativ 1.6
First Watt J2 or Cary 300SEI
driving Voxativs—no crossover
LFD NCSE driving 15” Woofers

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Audionumber3 Verified Member Posts: 14	Re: How much better is the sound with a pre? Reply #8 - 02/14/22 at 17:57:19 You guys truly are awesome, thanks so much for all the input. I definitely have some things to think about. I should probably just order one now, just to get my name on the list.
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Audionumber3 Verified Member Posts: 14	Re: How much better is the sound with a pre? Reply #9 - 02/14/22 at 23:14:45 Well, that didn't take long. I placed my order! Now I have like 5 years to make up my mind if I want any upgrades.... Thanks again guys.
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Tony

Seasoned Member

"Life without
..music is
inconceivable"
A.Einsteln

Posts: 622

Re: How much better is the sound with a pre?
Reply #10 - 02/15/22 at 01:04:30

Hey ...#3, I have been waiting for ten months for my initial order, but a lot of unexpected opportunities presented themselves over that period. As a result, that initial order has changed a lot.

I picked up some great used equipment over the months. People in this community take good care of their equipment, and a good deal will come up every so often.

I bought an older CSP 2+ and a ZStage. Both were in perfect shape. Keep your eyes open for a pre-owned CSP 2 or 3. However, you have to be ready to buy as they sell quickly once listed in the classifieds.

Also, if you are worried about the unit, you can have it sent back to Decware by the seller for a check-up and a reissue of the lifetime warranty to you for a reasonable fee -- if you need it.

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chapsjon

Seasoned Member

Posts: 185

Re: How much better is the sound with a pre?
Reply #11 - 02/17/22 at 03:44:56

I have been fortunate to acquire all current Decware gear used. I am now on the waitlist for SE84UFO w/ anniversary mods.
All used Decware I bought was purchased through this forum, well cared for, and very pleasant transactions. Obviously, I can't speak for all sellers, but my experience has been good.

Over several years, I have been fortunate in what I've found and purchased, but I have also missed out multiple times. My advice is if you see something you are interested in, move fast on the first PM. You can always ask questions if you are uncertain, but at least your now "first in line." Smiley

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LR:Mini Torii+Wright WPP100 phono, CSP2+SE84UFO, Pioneer Exclusive M4, Accuphase E-303,Graham Slee Jazz Club, Technics SL-1200MK3D Grace F-8 & Nagaoka MP-110, Yamaha NS-1000M, KEF Reference 101, Sony SS-5050
BR: SE84C+, ZP1 phono, Decware 945
JVC QL-7 Shure V15

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Dr3wman

Seasoned Member

Posts: 250

Re: How much better is the sound with a pre?
Reply #12 - 04/20/22 at 05:19:24

I have a Torii MKV (with Anniv mods) due sometime this summer, and have also been wondering what I should add next and how the CSP3 25th might help.

I'm also considering the ZROCK2. I think there are a lot of variables, and some here have hinted the CSP3 might be a waste with the Torii. But I like the discussion of greater potential sound stage and "gain riding".

Given how long the wait looks to be at this point I might just order both. Luckily I will have the Torii for that time.

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Torii MKV/25 mods
PS Audio Stellar Phono Preamplifier
Technics SL-1200GR w/ Nagaoka MP-200.
KLH Model 3 speakers..
Sonos connect.

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DancingSea

Seasoned Member

Posts: 477

Re: How much better is the sound with a pre?
Reply #13 - 04/24/22 at 04:32:45

Granted my bowl of soup is a little different than most in that I'm using a solid state integrated amp in power amp mode. But I can't speak highly enough about the CSP3/ ZR2 combo. The gain settings on the CSP3 were not something I ever thought needed, struck me more as a curiosity. But what a difference they make to the overall presentation. All preamps should have such settings and I'm baffled why they're so rare.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, my favorite part about the CSP3/ ZR2 combo is the heightened emotional connection to the music. I realize that comes across cliche, but it's so true. And I'm not sure why or how the 2 pieces have brought that about. I can't say "well, the soundstage is better so I feel more emotionally connected." It's not about any one particular sonic trait. I'm beginning to think the tubes perform some sort of voodoo! But listening these days is more enthralling that it has ever been in my 25 year audiophile journey.

Last night I listened to the SACD of Grant Green's "Green Street" for the first time under the new Decware regime. It was outrageously good.

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