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New CSP3 Mystery (Read 6540 times)
DancingSea
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New CSP3 Mystery
02/07/22 at 00:04:30
 
As mentioned elsewhere, the new CSP3 and ZRock 2 have arrived.  I'll write more later about the sound.  

Here's a mystery.  On several well known recordings, the right and left soundstage is reversed by the new gear.  

For instance, on Garcia/ Grisman "Friend of the Devil" (MoFi SACD), for as long as I've listened to that recordings, when facing the speakers, Jerry's guitar is on the left, and Grisman's mandolin is on the right.  Now it's flipped, Jerry is on the right, David on the left.

Getz/ Gilberto "Girl From Ipanema" (Analog Productions SACD), the vocalist has always been on the left, now she's on the right.  On the Japanese SACD, the vocalist is on the right normally, but now she's on the left.  Same deal with Kenny Burrell's Midnight Blue "Chile Con Carne", Kenny is on the opposite side.

All of the above has been the same through multiple systems, and now is reveresed.

I've triple checked the cable connections.

For simplicity, let's focus on Garcia/ Grisman's "Friend of the Devil" from the MoFi SACD.

Now for the experiments.  I have a 15 year old ZBox, which I've been using for the past couple of years.  Removed the new ZRock 2 and CSP3, and hooked up just the ZBox, like before.  David is on the right, and Jerry's guitar is on the left - as I understand it should be.

Replaced the old ZBox with the new ZRock2, and all is normal.  Grisman on the right, and Jerry on the left.

Replaced the new ZRock2 with the new CSP3.  Everything flipped.  Jerry on the right, and Grisman on the left.

To my thinking, this reveals the CSP3 as the culprit.

Even tried switching the red and black cables on the CSP3.  First on the input.  Then on just the output.  Then on both.  In every scenario involving the CSP3, Jerry's guitar is incorrectly on the right, and Grisman is on the left.

So what the heck does all this mean???

Is the CSP3 supposed to flip the soundstage right to left?  It sounds quite good, but bothers me that these very well known, reference recordings are being flipped by the CSP3.

Any ideas?

Thanks
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Archie
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #1 - 02/07/22 at 00:16:16
 
It's got to be a wire crossed somewhere.  I have a test LP that runs through test to see if all external wires are connected properly (which you seem to have done).  With a cartridge it's easy to switch wires at the headshell and swap channels to a similar effect.

Sad to say, if I'm right, your CSP3 will need a trip back to the factory.   Sad

Obviously, contact Steve to make sure it's not user error.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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DancingSea
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #2 - 02/07/22 at 00:24:01
 
Thanks Archie.  It has to be something messed up in the CSP3.  I've repeated the experiment several times.  The CSP3 is flipping things around.

Just getting it repacked is going to be a feat unto itself.  It came double double boxed.  But it took me a third box just to store all the packaging that was in the inner CSP3 box even with the inner box having no CSP3 in it!

Sound is quite good, but this flipping issue has to be screwball.  

The ZRock 2 sounds good, though it came with the incorrect knob.  

I'll cal on Monday and get the ball rolling.  Bummer.
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Lon
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #3 - 02/07/22 at 00:34:52
 
I don't understand how just switching the red and black on the output of the CSP3 doesn't reverse the channels (correcting them) and then giving you the left and right you had before. I have found in the past that on one of the components left and right are wired in reverse so to speak and just swapping red and black corrects that. I can't imagine how one can reverse the channel locations on the jacks and NOT move the channels from one side to the other, but I guess it's possible.

I had a ZROCK2 I had to send back because the bypass reversed the channels. Can't really compare the EQ to the bypassed sound in that case with just one set of output jacks.

Hope you can sort it out without sending it back.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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Lin
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #4 - 02/07/22 at 00:42:13
 
Just be glad if it has a delay/mute on start up for use with your solid state equipment.

A few days ago I was testing a CSP2 and smoked 4 Fostex FE107E drivers (bi-pole speakers) that I have had for a long, long time. Cry
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Archie
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #5 - 02/07/22 at 00:43:44
 
Lon, I wondered that too.  

DS, read the manual closely and go step by step.  I remember once I'd plugged one of the output cables into the mono RCA and didn't notice for god knows how long.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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DancingSea
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #6 - 02/07/22 at 01:26:33
 
Lon wrote:

Quote:
I don't understand how just switching the red and black on the output of the CSP3 doesn't reverse the channels (correcting them) and then giving you the left and right you had before. I have found in the past that on one of the components left and right are wired in reverse so to speak and just swapping red and black corrects that. I can't imagine how one can reverse the channel locations on the jacks and NOT move the channels from one side to the other, but I guess it's possible.


I was also surprised that switching the red and black input/ output cables on the CSP3 made no difference to Jerry's location.  I switched the input only, then the output only, then both.  But I think this part isn't so important.  Bottomline is that when connected properly (red to red/ white to white) the soundstage is reversed and needs to be fixed.

Far be it from me to know what the heck goes on inside any of the gear I own!  My best guess is that the RCA connector on the CSP3 are ok, and the switched wire is somewhere else inside.  But that's based on zero knowledge of internal wiring topography.

But given that the same red to red/ white to white cable connection worked as expected in terms of Jerry and David's locations via:

1) SACD 30n --> Model 30
2) SACD 30n ---> ZBox --> Model 30
3) SACD 30n --> new ZR2 --> Model 30

But has reversed right to left soundstage if the CSP3 is involved in any fashion, makes me think it's some wire deep inside the CSP3.  It can be nothing else.  For me, that the 3 arrangements above, and every other stereo I've owned, all have the same Garcia/ Grisman soundstage placement and the CSP3 flips, means the CSP3 is not right.

Archie, I did read the manual.  For RCA connections, it seems very straight forward.  Red goes to red.  White goes to white.  As long as red isn't going into white, then all is good - just like every other piece of stereo gear.  And at no point were red and white mixed up originally.  I only switched them as an experiment.

Will Decware pay for the return shipping?  I've only had the unit 24 hours.  Shipping to and from Hawaii is no joke.

Another oddity is that I have the dual volume controls.  When I turn the right channel all the way down, and turn the left channel up, the left channel volume behaves as expected.  The left speaker gets increasing loud.

But if I turn down the left channel all the way, and slowly turn up the right channel, the right channel never gets all that loud, even turned up all the way.  Noticeably different than the volume increase on the left channel.

I double checked the gain controls, both are set at the same +6 clicks.  Turned them both all the way down, and raised again to +6 clicks each.

Hopefully Steve can shed some light on Monday.

I realize these sorts of issues can happen, but it's still disappointing to have waited a year and have a significant issue right out of the gate!  I'll be sure and send Steve a copy of the SACD DSD files for him to test track 4.

Do any of you have the Garcia/ Grisman MoFi SACD?  On Friend of the Devil, isn't Jerry's guitar on the left, and Grisman's mandolin on the right - and Jerry's voice in the middle?  When the mandolin first kicks in, it has always been firmly to the right in my experience.
 
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Archie
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #7 - 02/07/22 at 01:55:42
 
DS, give Steve a call as he is the master trouble-shooter.  In my experience, Decware will cover shipping both ways if the item is faulty.  Hopefully it's just a brain-cramp on your end, although it's seeming less and less likely.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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DancingSea
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #8 - 02/07/22 at 02:26:28
 
Thanks Archie,

I repeated a definitive test with the CSP3 and the Analog Productions Getz/ Gilberto “The Girl From Ipaneme”. The vocalist ought to be on the left. Way left, like left of the left speaker.

I tried it with the cables connected correctly, red to red, white to white for both input and output.  And switched, red into white, and white into red - and switched the output cables.

In both cases, the vocalist is on the right - the opposite of where she should be.  Like 10’ off!

The ZRock 2 is super though. Could be happy with just it.  Though in my system with only 18K input impedance on the Marantz, there’s probably an 8 db of lost volume due to the input impedance being too low. My ZBox fixes the mismatch.

I certainly don’t need the CSP3, but wiring snafu aside, I really like it.  The main benefit I’ve seen are the gain output knobs and the dual volume. It does a great job of room correction.  Not yet clear how the CSP3 tubes are contributing to the sound. The ZR2 is a more obvious effect.

And I LOVE how the CSP3 looks.  Sort of a steam pump meets Sideshow Bob (Simpson character - the cables coming out on top reminds me his hair).  It contrasts nicely with the city slick look of the Marantz stack.

Cheesy

My initial listening this morning was with Dave’s Picks 41, a new to me Grateful Dead show.  Didn’t know the recording well enough to pick up on the soundstage issue.  For those first 2 hours, the ZR2 + CSP3 sounded amazing!
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Lon
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #9 - 02/07/22 at 02:45:09
 
I don't understand what is going on and Steve needs to be contacted.

Do you get the same results, reversed channel output unchanged, if you reverse the INPUT cables on the CSP3?
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DancingSea
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #10 - 02/07/22 at 03:33:05
 
Lon, yes, it’s reversed no matter how I connect the CSP3.  Input or output, or both -  connected properly or with red into white, and white into red.

I did not change how the other end of the cables are connected to the source and amp.  Those ends are both connected correctly.

Has to be the new guy!
Grin
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Archie
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #11 - 02/07/22 at 06:26:57
 
Quote:
But if I turn down the left channel all the way, and slowly turn up the right channel, the right channel never gets all that loud, even turned up all the way.  Noticeably different than the volume increase on the left channel.


This kind of slipped by but it seems to indicate that something else is wrong too.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Lon
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"Love without
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worthless!"
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #12 - 02/07/22 at 13:32:42
 
Here's hoping that Steve can get this sorted without a trip back to the "factory."
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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JBzen
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #13 - 02/07/22 at 14:45:52
 
Try switching the tubes around to see if it changes anything.

John
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DancingSea
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #14 - 02/07/22 at 18:57:18
 
Thanks for the idea to switch the tubes.  I rotated the smaller tubes all to new sockets, but no improvement.

Double checked the dual volume control issue, and that turns out to not be an issue but was instead specific to the Garcia/Grisman in which each player sort of gets their own channel.

Double checked the reversal issue, trying the CSP3 alone, and the ZR2 alone.  The CSP3 remains the culprit.

Attempting to catch Sarah by phone, 2 strikeouts so far - will keep trying and report back from Oz once the wizard has offered his advice.
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Lon
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #15 - 02/07/22 at 19:12:32
 
What happens if you connect up the CSP3 and then reverse the input right to left on your Marantz?
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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DancingSea
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #16 - 02/07/22 at 19:29:57
 
Just got off the phone with Steve.  We did some tests.  First we unplugged the white cable on both input and output.  That left only the red cables connected on both input and output.

Hit play.  There was no sound.

Then we took the red output cable and connected it to the white output socket.  Now sound came out of the right channel.

Steve quickly concluded that this meant it had been wired incorrectly.  He gave two options.  I could live with it and connect the left channel in the same crossed up way.  Or return for repair at their expense.

I opted to return it.  By God, have waited this long, what's a couple more weeks to get it right? Will box it up and ship today.

It took Steve all of a couple of minutes to diagnose the issue.

Somehow it made it through both construction and quality control without being detected.  C'est la vie.

They were very easy to deal with.  Because I live in Hawaii, I have to pay the shipping myself but Sarah will reimburse.  And luckily, I don't have to go to the end of the line!  It will receive a one day turn around.

All good!

In my own tests, I didn't cross wire as Steve instructed.  I just switched the red and white cables on the input, and did the same on the output.  The cross wire part exceeded my technical knowledge of being something to do.
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JBzen
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #17 - 02/07/22 at 20:34:08
 
Good deal! I believe this could have been overlooked by QC with the beehive activity that is surely going on in Peoria. Wonder if some tech is going to be short on payday!

John
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DancingSea
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #18 - 02/07/22 at 21:17:07
 
I’m thinking flogging is appropriate.  

They have nets installed outside the Decware factory windows, just in case the tech tries to jump
Cheesy
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Archie
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #19 - 02/07/22 at 21:25:01
 
The silver lining for the rest of us is that Decware learns and rarely makes the same mistake twice.  Steve's customer service is the best.  While perfection isn't available (never possible) he makes things right!   Smiley
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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HockessinKid
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #20 - 02/07/22 at 22:38:28
 
Glad to hear Steve was able to diagnose the problem. Yes it's a pita, but you'll have your CSP3 back in no time. Enjoy your other toys in the mean time.

HK
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Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Audio Technica AT-OC9XML cart + Modwright PH 9.0XT phono OR Modwright modded Cambridge CNX V2 > CSP3-25th Ann. preamp > ZMA-25th Ann. amp > PI Audio UberBUSS > Caintuck Audio Lii15 Magnum speakers > Snake River Audio & ZenWave cables
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DancingSea
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #21 - 02/08/22 at 00:12:26
 
It’s all good. She’s out the door and due in East Peoria this Friday.

They also put the incorrect knob on the ZRock 2.  Hopefully they can right the ship!
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Geno
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #22 - 02/08/22 at 00:32:10
 
Well, alls I know is that this ought to be good for a second t-shirt at least… 🙈🙉🙊
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DancingSea
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #23 - 02/08/22 at 00:43:32
 
Haha!  Yes, an "I survived the first T-shirt" T-shirt!
Cheesy
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Coyote
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #24 - 02/11/22 at 19:01:26
 


I am glad to see that Decware is having your back and will fix it up.
I wonder if it is just a wire to be reconnected itf a local shop could not fix this for you and save all this shipping back and forth??

So the T-shirts are real! I LOVE it!!


Cheers,

a.

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My modest system:
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Marantz 2235.
Schiit Mani.
Technic SL23.
Thorens TD160 MKII + SME III tonearm. Ortophon OM10.
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DancingSea
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #25 - 02/11/22 at 19:17:53
 
Local shop, hahaha, that's a good one.  I live on Maui.  Nearest qualified local shop is 2500 miles away in SoCal.  But I want Steve to give the CSP3 a full diagnostic to make sure everything else is A OK.  And with the lifetime warranty, I'm guessing Steve prefers to do it.

Fingers crossed that they'll sneak some sort of upgrade into my CSP3 as compensation.   Roll Eyes  
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Lin
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #26 - 02/11/22 at 23:46:38
 
Coyote wrote on 02/11/22 at 19:01:26:
I wonder if it is just a wire to be reconnected if a local shop could not fix this for you and save all this shipping back and forth??


Yes, there are a couple local places that could fix it if they were willing.
It would be worth it to buy soldering equipment and learn to DIY if an older or second hand piece.
Totally understand not wanting to do that with something brand new.
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DancingSea
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #27 - 02/16/22 at 19:43:10
 
Spoke with Sarah on Monday and my returned CSP3 is on the bench and receiving medical treatment.  Does anyone know if with a return they will send another shipping confirmation email? Or is that only with new orders? I don't want to bother Sarah with such a neurotic question.  I keep eagerly checking my email in hopes it has shipped!
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HockessinKid
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Re: New CSP3 Mystery
Reply #28 - 02/16/22 at 19:50:21
 
You'll get a shipping confirmation when repairs are completed, Steve QC's it, and it gets boxed up. No worries.

HK
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Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Audio Technica AT-OC9XML cart + Modwright PH 9.0XT phono OR Modwright modded Cambridge CNX V2 > CSP3-25th Ann. preamp > ZMA-25th Ann. amp > PI Audio UberBUSS > Caintuck Audio Lii15 Magnum speakers > Snake River Audio & ZenWave cables
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