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Which ZMC with a Sumiko Blue Point MC? (Read 219 times)
Kirk
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Posts: 12
Which ZMC with a Sumiko Blue Point MC?
12/25/21 at 19:57:21
 
Santa thought I was a good boy this year and gifted me some sweet vinyl.  I think I want to step up my vinyl game with a ZMC.  I am not sure which ZMC I need with a Sumiko Blue Point MC?  Specs below:

High Output Moving Coil
Mass & Dimension
6.3g, 11 x 16.9 x 27.8mm (WxHxD)
Stylus
0.3 x 0.7mil Elliptical
Cantilever
Aluminium Pipe
Coils
High-Purity Copper
Internal Impedance
135Ω
Load Impedance
47kΩ
Frequency Response
15Hz – 35kHz
Output Voltage
2.5mV @ 1kHz
Channel Separation
30dB @ 1kHz
Channel Balance
<1dB @ 1kHz
Compliance
12×10-6cm/dyn @ 100Hz
Capacitance
100pF – 200pF
Vertical Tracking Angle
20°
Tracking Force Range
1.8g – 2.2g
Recommended Tracking Force
2.0g
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SE84UFO2, modern Klipschorns, Cambridge Audio CXN V2 (Modwright), Rega Planar 3, Sumiko Bluepoint MC, Schitt Mani, GR-Research and Decware cables
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Archie
Seasoned Member
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Posts: 2514
Re: Which ZMC with a Sumiko Blue Point MC?
Reply #1 - 12/25/21 at 23:43:22
 
For a 2.5mV output cart you don't need a ZMC.  I use the ZMC1 with my 0.4mV MC cart and a ZP3.  You're in a bit of a "no man's" land though since it's on the low side, for the ZP3, anyway.  At that output you might need a pre-amp after the phono stage if you don't already have one.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Edsonic
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Posts: 46
Re: Which ZMC with a Sumiko Blue Point MC?
Reply #2 - 12/27/21 at 00:11:34
 
The cartridge info specifies a 47kΩ load impedance, which indicates that it's meant for going into a MM phono preamp (which are [almost] all 47kΩ input). The ZMC2 @10X / 20dB gain (between TT out and phono pre) would present a load of 470 ohms for the 135 ohms DCR of the Sumiko cart. The ZMC1 input would present 117 ohms. No bueno.

There is no phono pre or preamplifier listed in your sig, so we don't quite have the whole picture, here.

A phono pre with 48dB or higher gain would do, but not many MM pre's do that. In the case of a (more typical) MM phono stage with 38-44dB gain, a head amp might be the way to go. Here's one I've come across that I think would do the job well for reasonable money:

https://hagerman-audio-labs.myshopify.com/collections/phono-preamps/products/pic...

Set the gain to 12 dB and input impedance to 47 kohms. You would then have a plentiful ~ 10mV going into the phono preamp from the Sumiko cart.

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Archie
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Posts: 2514
Re: Which ZMC with a Sumiko Blue Point MC?
Reply #3 - 12/27/21 at 00:42:24
 
That's a cool little device that just boosts the signal?  If it's truly transparent then get one for sure.

What does it mean that its output impedance is 300 Ohm though.  If you use it before the ZP3 doesn't it need to be 47k Ohm?
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Kirk
Verified Member
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Posts: 12
Re: Which ZMC with a Sumiko Blue Point MC?
Reply #4 - 12/27/21 at 00:51:15
 
This is all great info.  I am learning.  I've been pretty much exclusively streaming, but would like to hear how far I can take vinyl.  I currently have a Schitt Mani https://www.schiit.com/products/mani sitting between the TT and the UFO2.  My vinyl sounds really good, but I am cursed with a desire to push the envelope.
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SE84UFO2, modern Klipschorns, Cambridge Audio CXN V2 (Modwright), Rega Planar 3, Sumiko Bluepoint MC, Schitt Mani, GR-Research and Decware cables
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Archie
Seasoned Member
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Posts: 2514
Re: Which ZMC with a Sumiko Blue Point MC?
Reply #5 - 12/27/21 at 00:55:22
 
I don't see what your amp is but when I first contacted Steve about upgrading my system with a ZP3 he told me that my amp was my weak link and that I should upgrade that first.  Be careful though, I ended up dumping my entire system for what I list in my profile!   Wink
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Edsonic
Verified Member
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Posts: 46
Re: Which ZMC with a Sumiko Blue Point MC?
Reply #6 - 12/27/21 at 01:07:18
 
Quote:
That's a cool little device that just boosts the signal?  If it's truly transparent then get one for sure.


Yes, it is intended for use in providing gain for both low output and high output MC carts. This can also be useful for some Grado and Soundsimith and other moving iron carts.

I think it's a great option for those with a LOMC who can't yet afford a good step-up transformer, to tide them over in the meantime.

Hagerman seems to have a pretty good reputation and positive commentary and reviews for their SS and tube phono preamps, all at very reasonable prices.

I would think that this separate unit with its own power supply, etc. would be an improvement over the first gain stage of more than a few MM/MC phono preamps out there.

-- The input of the Piccolo2 can be set for different input impedance, including 47kohms. The 300ohm output of the device is going into the 47kohm input of whichever MM phono stage, making for well over the standard minimum 10:1 ratio of input impedance of load (second device) to output impedance of the source plugged into it. For reference, MM carts have much higher output impedance but are still comfortably within the minimum ratio. (E.g., Ortofon 2M Black- 1.2kohm DCR; AT VM520EB- 800ohm DCR, output impedance @ 1,000 Hz- 2.7kohms).
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Kirk
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Posts: 12
Re: Which ZMC with a Sumiko Blue Point MC?
Reply #7 - 12/27/21 at 02:17:52
 
So you guys think a pre-amp (ala CSP3) would be better suited to sit between the UFO and TT?  No SUT needed?  I would like to get the Schitt Mani out of the signal path to simplify if possible.
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SE84UFO2, modern Klipschorns, Cambridge Audio CXN V2 (Modwright), Rega Planar 3, Sumiko Bluepoint MC, Schitt Mani, GR-Research and Decware cables
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Edsonic
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Posts: 46
Re: Which ZMC with a Sumiko Blue Point MC?
Reply #8 - 12/27/21 at 03:47:55
 
Your SE84UFO2 and Klipschorn make a great combo, and will make full use of the effort and $ to improve elsewhere.

You can't lose the Mani just yet, since it's your phono preamp (and it does have 47kohm input and a 48dB gain setting). The DW CSP3 is a line stage preamplifier, no phono stage within. You would plug the Mani into the CSP3. As it is, you're using a lot of gain in the 84UFO2 if the Mani is plugged straight into it. Though it might sound counterintuitive at first blush, using the CSP3 for most of the gain after the Mani (and lowering the amplifier volume) might result in lower noise overall. Everyone I've come across in these forums who has run phono pre straight into amplifier reports that the sound is much improved by inserting the CSP3 inbetween phono stage and amplifier.*

As funds allow, you would eventually want a cartridge upgrade (preferably a good low output MC (LOMC), and if sticking with Decware, that into a ZMC2 (10X/20dB) or ZMC1 (20X/26dB) step-up transformer, and that plugged into the  ZP3, -> CSP3 -> 84UFO2.

If I could do only one or two items at a time I would get the CSP3 first, because that plays better with the phono pre and amplifier. The LOMC, SUT, and new phono preamp would all have to come essentially at the same time, so that's a wallop to the wallet to save up for.

OTOH, the Mani can accommodate some LOMC's with its 59dB gain H(igh) setting, but there is only one input impedance for LOMC  @ 47 ohms. LOMC's with DCR higher than 5-6 ohms (of which there are many) might not sound at their best into 47 ohms. But there are a number of good and very good LOMC's w/ DCR at 5 0hms and below.

If the cartridge I wanted fit the latter description, then I would get the CSP3 first (for much improved overall gain structure), then the low DCR LOMC cart, then save up for the ZMC + ZP3 to replace the Mani.

*Except for one person, who's name I can't recall. He doesn't use any preamplifier.
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Archie
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Posts: 2514
Re: Which ZMC with a Sumiko Blue Point MC?
Reply #9 - 12/27/21 at 06:14:07
 
While waiting for my ZMC1 several years ago, I was able to use my 0.34mV MC cart with just the ZP3 and CSP3 by cranking the CSP3 to maximum.  In that case I did amplify noise quite a bit but it shows what a CSP3 can do.  With your 2.5mV cart a CSP3 will boost the signal out of the phono pre up to enough voltage to allow the UFO to play at it's maximum potential.  Without a boost your UFO will be hobbled.  I'm not sure what the math on you combination is but with my cart, a 20X boost from my ZMC1 and the 42dB gain from my ZP3, I'm still only about 1 volt out of the ZP3.  My ZMA needs 2 volts for it to reach full potential volume wise so my CSP3 is still very important.

The CSP3 also adds heft to the sound, especially with gain riding.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Arpin
Verified Member
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Put a great stereo
in every space.

Posts: 23
Re: Which ZMC with a Sumiko Blue Point MC?
Reply #10 - 01/03/22 at 08:04:27
 
The Schiit Mani has a 48dB mode that is enabled by setting Gain1 to H and Gain2 to L. Try this first. Should solve your entire problem.

And save for a ZP3 or CSP3. Maybe when Steve builds the ZP3 there could be a way to adjust sensitivity slightly lower?
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Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

Panasonic multibit, Verum, Etymotic, Elac, Pioneer, Schiit
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