Hey Dancingsea,

First thoughts.... Since you don't seem to want many of the features the CSP3 offers, including concerns over confusion with its adjustability, adjustments there to offer nice tuning tools to best improve a system and room, I am wondering if the CSP3 is right for you.

But I have answered your earlier questions I hope and maybe this will help.

Dancingsea said: "I'm a little confused about what's the "front", and what's the "back".  Is the master CSP3 volume knob the front?  And the two right and left channel output adjustment knobs?, pot?, the "back"?"

If you bring up the CSP3 image on a browser window, it might be easier to get??? And actually, there is an image on the product page that points to each tube spot and adjustment pot with descriptions.

But what I was talking about... normally the CSP3 is set up on a rack or whatever with the master gain in front (toward you) and the RCA inputs and outputs in the back (away from you). So when I am talking about the front, I am talking about the front of the pre as you would look at it in use. From this view, first, in the front middle, is the master gain pot with a gold knob in the current pic.

As the name implies, the master pot adjusts the gain levels to everything in the basic sound development path, the smaller pots, the signal tubes, signal caps, resistors.... not an expert, I gather that more gain in a traditional sense changes the output signal/sound qualities. While volume in the traditional sense would ideally just change the volume level, the loudness, and without changing the qualities of the signal/sound. It is the gain adjustment/sound aspects of the CSP3 I am most using.

Pot is short for potentiometer, which is a continuously variable resistor. They variably resist the amount of voltage allowed through the pot based on pot adjustments. With less resistance resisting the voltage, more voltage is let through. And the way pots we use are made, no resistance = wide open, theoretically letting all the voltage available get past the pot to feed the circuit beyond the most voltage. Then the resistance to the voltage increases as the pot is turned down, and all the way down, it is functionally fully resisting the voltage so the pot is "closed." If you think of this relative to a volume pot, meant to effect just the volume of sound allowed through the pot, maybe that makes sense?

Then moving back from the master pot toward the tubes, are the small R/L pot pairs, in this case with no knobs on them, so you adjust them by turning the silver colored pot shafts.

The first set of small pots we have been talking about relative to settings are in front of the first tube (the input tube), and they adjust the gain into the tube circuit as well, but with R/L balancing abilities, having one for each channel. And these pots have steps that sort of grab some, so are good for set and forget. Behind these, looking the same, are the output pots, that if I recall correctly are after the tube stage and before the output RCAs.

Dancingsea said: "My situation is sort of the opposite.  I prefer not to live without a remote control for volume.  I can control volume with the remote on two different Marantz devices.  The SACD 30n, or the Model 30 integrated amp (which can be run with the integrated preamp off if desired).  Therefore, in terms of volume control, the CSP3 is the odd man out.

Should I then set the CSP3 to "wide open"?"

Sorry, since you mentioned the possibility of the CSP3 for "volume," I stopped thinking about what a high priority a remote was for you. And as you know I prefer to use the CSP3 for sound adjustment, and not for volume. So I described my take on the traditional use of a pre for volume.... not as a recommendation, but to describe how one might use it for this purpose.

I don't know what running the CSP3 wide open would do with your system.

But I personally do not prefer any of the Decware gain stages I have very close to wide open, and like them less wide open...too much for me. And my guess, they are designed this way.... the best sound  somewhere in the middle, and this allowing leeway to tune that sound for more or less of it. So you can get the benefits from the intended sonic effects, then tune to better balance your system with those effects... Adjustability allows for finding the best sound enhancement in each particular system and for particular tastes.


But it sounds like adjusting by sound is not necessarily your thing, especially if there are a lot of adjustments to tune together. So if this is correct, you might want to just go with the ZRock2 for now. It would likely seem simpler and pretty intuitive to you. Turn the knob and hear the change. Or flip a switch and hear the change. And only one tube also, so less to worry over in adjusting with tubes... I suspect if you like your ZBox, you will really like the ZRock2, and it will likely enhance your experience by adjusting your signal in ways it seems you are after, making it more lucid and rich, and being able to beef up the bass in the balance to tastes. It still depends on adjusting by sound though, to me critical for optimizing the sound for different systems or system changes.

For example, I am testing a brighter USB cable going to my DAC, and put some more translucent/clean sounding feet under it. And all else the same, my system got a little too clean and lean for my tastes, even a slight touch tinselly on top. So knowing shifting the balance a little toward bass might solve that, I upped the ZRock2 pot a little, and the sound got a little fuller, warmer, more dense, and more lucid, allowing me to enjoy and benefit from the new cable and feet.

Or, if you did get your CSP3, you could forget about the adjustments that confuse you and use it in a more-or-less set and forget way. You would have to explore the initial setup and would still have to trust what you hear while doing that setup... adjusting according to tastes in order to more fully utilize its potential to make your system better. But once set up, you could just use the master gain for fine tuning.

Or, perhaps having set it up and realizing what it can do, and having learned some by hearing what adjustments do, you might feel empowered to play with adjustments further, like fine tuning using the small pots and tube rolling to get more of what you want. Considered this way, without getting caught by voltage and gain and volume intricacies, it is pretty simple too. And though the sound influences would be different, once the rest is pretty right, you could just turn the master pot until you find your favorite system sound. So it could be used pretty simply with more optimized settings other than wide open!

That said, I don't think the CSP3 is meant to be very euphonic. Though you could tube it to be more warm and euphonic, to try to go more this way, I think you would have to get into tube rolling. But to me the design is more about musical transparency, lucidity, density, liquidity, dynamics, weight.... basically making most of what is coming in more powerful, more complete with the right settings... So a consideration.

Will, funny, I never considered trying my ZR2 without my CSP3 although I've done the opposite.  I think it's a good suggestion if someone has enough source voltage -- which I really don't.  I might have to try that sometime.

I generally find that I don't miss a component until I put it back in.  That sounds weird but we are generally dealing with "great, greater, greatest."  I did take out my ZR2 and I thought I would leave it out until I eventually put it back in and love it again.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that for me, every one of Steve's components has been an improvement.  The only way to stop adding components seems to be to stop trying new ones!  lol

This thread and so many others lead me to think we are all so different, with different rooms, components, tastes and even hearing and perception of sound.

Above Brad says he felt he sometimes wanted more power with a Taboo Mk IV and highly efficient speakers in a near-field listening situation. I am using the same Taboo Mk IV with less efficient speakers and filling a very large space and not running out of power and listening as loud as I'd like! And after living with Toriis Mk II and Mk III for many years I have come to really appreciate and prefer the sound of the Zen amps and the Taboo, they seem more natural and less "hifi" to me--I didn't realize that til the Taboo Mk IV came into my life and then I moved from Torii Mk IIIs to the SE84UFO3 Monoblocks and that impression was even further realized.

Maybe I don't find I need more reserve or headroom because I use the PS Audio regenerator (in this living room system with the Taboo it's the lowly Power Plant Premier) or whether it's because of the multiple drivers in the HR-1. . . but I come to very different conclusions with the same amp in a larger room.

I think it IS very important to have an amplifier and speaker combination that works for your room, sources and tastes. And that's not easy to find "cold" . . . but when you do there's a relaxation and satisfaction in listening that IS easy to recognize and enjoy. I hope we all can get there, and stay there!

Will wrote:

Quote:


Thanks for all the great tips!  I'm looking forward to trying them hands on.  The part that I imagine/ guess that is unusual in my case for Decware adherents is that I'm using the CSP3 with a class D solid state amp.  Granted, my amp was just rated Class A by Stereophile, which makes me pretty fancy (g).

The 25th Anniversary CSP3 looks amazing.  I'm still dipping my toe in the tube world.  I began over 20 years ago when an Ah! Tjeob CD4000 (has 2 output tubes) bested an Audio Refinement (YBA) CD player.  Had that for 16 years.  As mentioned, auditioned an entry level PrimaLuna Prologue power amp, and didn't like it.  Then in the past year, added the ZBox.  So my tube experience is far more romantic than actual.  I believe the CSP3 (and ZR2) will open an entirely new door of tube experience and exploration.  The PL experience, which granted is a very small sample size, makes me think I prefer the SS amp side mixed with a tube preamp.

I've read soooooo much about tubes.  Yet experienced very little.  Tubes hold a fascination for me.  Just got a 1960's Mazda 12AU7 from Brent Jesse for the ZBox.  I love the old box, and the idea that something older than me can play such an interesting part in my current stereo.

To Infinity And Beyond!

Thanks Will.  Sorry for the confusion.  Because I'm just dipping my toe in the tube waters, I'm not yet ready to commit to the expense of something like the 25th Anniversary CSP3.  I really "ought" to just get either the ZR2, or the CSP3.  Which is what I would ordinarily do, one at time.  Live with the ZR2 for 6 months and see what that gets me.  The waitlist, and my ability to skip it thanks to the ZR2 order, pushed me to get both.

I'm also angling for some new speakers thus am content with the base models.  Once the Decware stuff is here I would've spent a lot on an entirely new system over the past year (except speakers).  I'm thinking a speaker upgrade ought to come before going head over heals into the Decware universe.  Who knows, the CSP3 might be too soft sounding for me?  I honestly don't know what to expect.  I might be "where the heck is the magic"??  

You guys are doctoral level Decware owners and really know your stuff.  I just graduated from tube high school and am visiting the Decware campus before enrolling.  So to speak.

Mahalo Nui Loa!  (fancy thanks in Hawaiian)