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Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server (Read 8502 times)
Tony
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Re: Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server
Reply #50 - 12/08/21 at 20:04:04
 
Again for interested folks, I found this video that was helpful.

The video, titled "How To Get The Best Sound From Your Digital System,"  from smallgreencomputer.com answers some of my questions about the Sonore hardware and hookup.  It also raises a few new ones.  It looks like a lot of parts (that may be related to a Roon hookup), and the cost is not stated.  

For those of you in the know, does this approach to improving digital audio make sense?

Here is the corrected video link:  https://youtu.be/iwtzN5spDUg
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Tony
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Re: Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server
Reply #51 - 12/14/21 at 19:50:14
 
I was able to investigate the option presented in this video a little further, and the cost is about $2000.  The optical Rendu plus their suggested power supply alone was just over 2K, but there may be a few ways to reduce that price. Still, the media converter strategy first offered by GS was about $100.  It is hard to imagine a return of investment that would justify the additional expense presented in this video.
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lobo
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Re: Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server
Reply #52 - 12/14/21 at 22:45:00
 
I doubt my ears could tell the difference, between that setup and your cxn v2.
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GroovySauce
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Re: Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server
Reply #53 - 12/17/21 at 14:42:26
 
Tony,

I'm not an expert, based on my experience the video does outline a legitimate way to setup an audio network. I would use it as a guide of one approach, it can be modified with different products. Key points being optical isolation, low noise power supplies and clean side / dirty side of the network.

When it comes to how much of a change you will get per $$$ spent that is a difficult one.

Lobo,

I find that we often underestimate our senses. We create a block for ourselves and doubt our abilities. When we relax and let it be, it might be surprising how much we can perceive. I find it much more difficult to "listen for a change" vs relaxing and paying attention to what shows up.

When I listen for the difference I find I will hyper focus on one area and miss out on other areas. When I relax and let impressions show up that is when I really find the distinctions between changes.

The difficulty is trusting what shows up, if we are drawn to a change and start logically assessing it, doubt shows up and makes us unsure.

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Tony
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Re: Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server
Reply #54 - 12/19/21 at 19:49:02
 
Hi GS, from your suggestion above:

"...the video does outline a legitimate way to set up an audio network. I would use it as a guide of one approach. It can be modified with different products. Key points being optical isolation, low noise power supplies and clean side / dirty side of the network."

Focusing first on improving the power supply to the TP-Link media converter you introduced at the start of this topic, might that lead to improved (cleaner) signal processing? The power cable included with the media converter seems of minimal quality.

The video suggests a pretty high-priced replacement power source that is too expensive for me. A search of "low-noise power suppliers" resulted in many choices. Might you or someone following this question have a suggestion of one or more alternative low noise power sources to consider?  Also, would I need to buy two or just one low-noise power source - that one placed at the clean side of the conversion?

Finally, reading off the TP-Link power supply itself, it states, "Output: 9V - 0.6 A" is that what the replacement power supply should display, or is there some other match I should look for so that once installed, everything works together?

Thanks, Tony
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GroovySauce
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Re: Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server
Reply #55 - 12/20/21 at 15:45:56
 
Adding a better power supply (Teddy Pardo) to my TP-link on the clean side did improve things.

One lower cost option is the ifi iPower. It’s a SMPS with some circuits to reduce noise. The test results are very compelling. I don’t know what the results would be using that on the clean side TP-Link media converter.

I would stay with the rated voltage, make sure the power supply can provide the same or more amps.

The more I play around with audio systems the more I find everything makes a difference. So putting a better power supply on the dirty side, I say does make a difference, however! Is that the weakest link? Will it be audible in the current state of the system? The second question is harder one to answer, until the change has been made.

My guess is, a better ethernet cable on the clean side will do more than a fancy power supply on the dirty side.
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Tony
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Re: Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server
Reply #56 - 12/23/21 at 01:18:09
 
Two things:  

I added the ifi Power to my T-P Link Media Converter, and it sounds terrific.  I need more time to determine if it sounds better than the previous power cable, as my current system sounds so good these days that it's hard to give credit to where credit is due.

The other thing to share is that Small Green Computer just released a 3-minute video on how to connect two media converters to your system. An excellent visual/demo of the concept behind this topic.  

Here's the link:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5F8B-e3TZw



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GroovySauce
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Re: Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server
Reply #57 - 01/02/22 at 12:53:34
 
Tony, Have you swapped out the PS back to the supplied one? Any observations?

Small Green Computer is doing a good job making to the point and clear videos.

I bought a used Optical Module. The older version, not the Deluxe. It is better than the TP-Link. It's also multiple times more money than the TP-link. Used Optical Module sell for over $200.

With my setup I can disconnect the ethernet from the system completely and listen to files. Going to the Optical Module has closed the gab between no cable and cable significantly. Playing files from the SSD is still superior to streaming from Qobuz. The Optical Module improved Qobuz playback a little bit.

The TP-Link and Optical Module are not compatible. I have a Mikrotik router that has a slot to add an optical unit, I bought a Finstar module that  is compatible with the Optical Module.

What I noticed is that there is a tenseness that goes away when adding the Optical Module. Similar to being in the kitchen and the refrigerator turns off, a sense of peace and calm comes over you, a relaxation.

I have an Uptone EtherRegen on order which I should be receiving in February.
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MrDerrick
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Re: Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server
Reply #58 - 01/03/22 at 03:55:20
 
GroovySauce,

The more Ethernet cabling you can remove from your audio LAN the better off you will be.

Or make every effort possible to keep as much of the Ethernet cable as far away from your audio equipment as you can.

You are moving in the right direction with the Sonore opticalModule, feed it with the best power possible, it makes a difference.

Try to keep the B side of the EtherREGEN as close as possible to your server/endpoint, to keep the Ethernet cable as short as possible.

I am guessing that you will feed the A side with fiber from the opticalModule.

Try to use Ethernet cables that do not have the shield connected at either end, I use the Ghent JSSG Ethernet cables.

The only Ethernet cabling that is in my audio LAN is 20 meters away from my equipment, I am fiber to my STi9 and renderer.

With the new gen 2.1 enhanced USB hardware installed in my KTE May I can once again use the Sonore Sig Rendu SE.

Unfortunately, while the EtherREGEN with master clock worked wonders with the MeLE NAA, it does not with the Sig Rendu at 1.4/1.5 MHz.

The Sig Rendu NAA at 1.4/1.5 MHz without the EtherREGEN & master clock surpasses the MeLE NAA with the EtherREGEN & master clock.

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GroovySauce
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Re: Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server
Reply #59 - 01/03/22 at 14:20:20
 
MrDerrick, I'm going to try the EtherRegen and the optical module in a few different configurations. I did get a CAD Ground Control and an After Dark Ground box  (still waiting on the After Dark) I really like what the CAD unit bought to the system. The EtherRegen has a convenient grounding post so that will be in the mix too.

That's interesting about the master clock not working wonders with the Rendu. It doesn't surprise me though. I found the MAY KTE DAC to not benefit from the Innuos USB reclocker. It sounded different, not better.

Seeing that ethernet for me is 70-80% of the time just for control of the server to select tracks / albums I'm not as worried about messing with clocks. It might help when streaming Qobuz.
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Tony
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Re: Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server
Reply #60 - 01/08/22 at 00:01:03
 
From above, GS asked:

Tony, Have you swapped out the PS back to the supplied one? Any observations?

Happy New Year, everyone.    

I waited for a time to sit and listen carefully for any differences that I could hear between my new "ifi" power supply and my older generic one that power the T-P Link Media Converter discussed above. I did not expect to hear that much difference going into the comparison as I was pleased with how my system sounded before installing the "ifi" power supply and then again after. However, the direct comparison of the two did reveal differences in favor of the "ifi."

I listened to three tracks that I know very well, and the fidelity was improved in each when listening with the "ifi" power supply. The differences were at times subtle and at other times substantial but consistently discernable. I could hear the improvement, specifically in the bass. Descriptors like more resonance and fullness come to mind. The improvement was pleasurable.

The second track featured male and female vocalists, and the difference between the two power supplies was unclear when they sang together. However, the bass introduction to their song was better with the "ifi."  

The third track featured piano and strings, revealing the most difference in SQ. The bass notes from the piano and then the higher pitch notes of the violin both sounded better. Less so for the cello, although it did sound fuller.  

This reasonably priced (about $100) power supply improvement to the original T-P Link Media Converter strategy discussed above worked well for me.    
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kulafu
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Re: Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server
Reply #61 - 01/08/22 at 14:55:07
 
All, excellent topic and thread....I stream 100% using HQP and Roon.  Like GS, I have purchased the EtherRegen that will be mated with my Ultrarendu along with a DIY System Optique upstream of the EtherRegen.  I am limited to PCM 768K and SDM 256K (using MAC Mini M1).  Anything higher, I get the stutter and periodic dropouts.  Question, with the addition of the EtherRegen and the Optical DIY, will I be able to achieve PCM 1.536MHz and DSD 512K?
Bob
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MrDerrick
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Re: Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server
Reply #62 - 01/09/22 at 18:01:26
 
kulafa,

If you do not go over 705.6/768 KHz PCM you will be fine.
I am not certain on SDM/DSD rates.

What I found was that 1.4/1.5 MHz is right on the edge of what the EtherREGEN can handle, with my equipment configuration.
1.4 would work 95% of the time, 1.5 was a no go.
Also, my few SDM files that I convert to PCM would not play at 1.4 PCM.

That is with the combination of equipment that I use, your equipment may not produce the same results, I hope that It works for you.

From what I gathered through my correspondence with JS and conversation with Alex, there are several factors to consider.
Flow control and pause packets have to play nice with HQPlayer and NAA FIFO.
A side Gigabit 1000 speed and B side Fast 100 speed crossing the mote.
I thought 100 speed was enough, but it may be some other bottleneck in my chain.

The optical Rendus require Gigabit speed ( systemOptique ), I don't know if the UltraRendu requires Gigabit speed, I had to go B -> A.
I even tried dual eRs, A -> B -> B -> A

Keep in mind that 1.4/1.5 PCM was not an option until recently on any DAC!

But there is hope that the next generation of little black boxes will support 1.4/1.5 and beyond.

For me 1.4 PCM with eR and clock was very good with the MeLE NAA.
The Sig Rendu still performed better without the eR and clock than the MeLE with the eR and clock and could do 1.4/1.5 without issue along with SDM -> PCM conversion.

The new 2.1 enhanced USB hardware for the May enabled me to once again use the Sig Rendu as NAA whose SQ is superior to the MeLE as NAA.
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kulafu
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Re: Removing Network Noise From Your Streamer / Server
Reply #63 - 01/09/22 at 22:11:46
 
Mr. Derrick, I currently am having no problems with PCM 768K and DSD256 (ASDM7ECvs/polysinc-gauss-xla) except from when the Roon Music is >96K rate and above.  For my ears, I prefer the PCM.  This hobby and love of music listening is fun and a great learning experience.  Thanks for sharing.
Bob
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