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New Torii MK V (Read 10806 times)
Kirk
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #100 - 08/07/21 at 17:58:58
 
Hey CAJames.  Not necessarily looking for more watts.  I am relatively new to this game and still recovering from the shock and awe of SET+Khorns in my room.  I am mad at myself for missing out on this sound for far too long.  

I am coming off of a solid state amp connected to bookshelf speakers.  I should have made this plunge long ago. Can't help but wonder is there still more being left on the table?  Would a Torii or ZMA take me to yet another place?

(writing this and was just startled by Lindsey Buckingham's guitar on Never Going Back Again  wow)
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Dana
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #101 - 08/07/21 at 18:54:10
 
I too just discovered the corner horn UFO connection. It is magical
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CAJames
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #102 - 08/07/21 at 19:32:11
 
Hey Kirk,

If it really isn't about watts then I would say this (although others are much better equipped to go into detail than me): the higher power push-pull amps are different, but certainly not "better." Some prefer the PP sound while but others of us prefer the SET sound. It think it is fair to say with the right speakers the SETs are the last word in speed and transparency and frequency extension so if that is what you are looking for I don't think you can do better than what you have now, except see below. But there are plenty of threads throughout the forums on those differences.

However, there are maybe some other things you can do to get even better performance without switching amps. Did you get your amp with the anniversary mods? If not I would say it is a no-brainer to send it back to Decware for the update. That will absolutely get more out of your K-horns. (Or instead of getting a higher powered Decware amp get the 25th anniversary edition UFO, which would really take it to the max). The other option would be to explore tube rolling. Again there are many threads on this topic and, just like with everything else in audio, you can spend as much $$$ as you want on heritage tubes but many of us have found we can really customize the sound to exactly our liking with just the right tube set.

I don't know if this was helpful or just confusing but good luck with your quest. Finding Decware is a great place to start (or finish).
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Tommy Freefall
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #103 - 08/07/21 at 19:33:56
 
Kirk, my experience is similar to yours. Wished I had become aware of Decware twenty years ago.
I lost a lot of years with inferior hifi systems.

If you truly don’t need the extra power, the 25th Annivery Zen Triode might be the preferred upgrade path.
IIRC, Steve declared that it is the best amp he has built.
I would love to have it, but for my room and speakers, it is not enough wattage, even if I combined two of them.
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Geno
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #104 - 08/07/21 at 20:40:11
 
Well said, CA. The anniversary mods take it to the next level. I had mine done and could not be happier.

Tube rolling will further refine the sound. And quality speaker cable and interconnects bring out the very best the amp has to offer. Everything in the chain matters.
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CAJames
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #105 - 08/07/21 at 20:54:48
 
Great point Geno. Decware electronics absolutely rewards your investment in every part on the signal chain: quality front end and spearkers, interconnects, speaker cables, room treatments , power conditioning and even (dare I say it) fuses.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
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Kirk
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #106 - 08/07/21 at 21:19:00
 
Great advice all.  Thanks so much.   Smiley
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safebelayer
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #107 - 08/08/21 at 02:09:19
 
Steve,

In an earlier post within this thread, you noted a possibility of doing a mod to the IV pertaining to the bias resistors...I think. Is that for the benefit of imaging and/or liquidity? Also, the bass response you're getting from the V, is that circuit related? Can this be accomplished in the IV now via a mod?

What specific tubes (brand and type) are you using in the V?

Thank you
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Steve Deckert
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #108 - 08/12/21 at 02:50:57
 

A bias resistor mod - it is a possibility but I will need more time to be sure it has the same effect as it appears to have in the MK5.  If it makes a difference we'll offer it.  No time soon however, we will wait until things slow down a bit.

So far the testing in the MK5 has been with some inexpensive Chinese tubes which get dark and gassy in a few days, but sound quite good.  Then I put ElectroHamonix in it, and they have more top end sizzle and more bass thump.

Tonight I compared it to the ZMA to see which amp sounds better.  The ZMA sounded better.  So I put the particular set of tubes from the ZMA into the MK5 and now it sounds so close I will have go back and forth a bit to figure out if that's actually the case or if was the tubes.

The bias meter and switch set up is working so well I am loving it.  It's nice to see the total milliamps that the output tubes are drawing at a glance as well as the various combintations.

We are starting production on the amp now, hoping that the custom meters arrive before the amps hit QC.  If not it is possible to ship with non-colored meters like in the pictures I've posted, so it will be the customers choice to wait or take the more generic meter when that time comes.

My intension is to ship it with Russian EL34 or KT66, perhaps either.  Will depend on supply.

Steve



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piezoman
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #109 - 08/12/21 at 03:09:01
 
Steve,

That's all really great news.

I look forward to your final determination and more detail on what you're hearing between the ZMA and Torii MK 5.

Brad

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Steve Deckert
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #110 - 08/12/21 at 05:00:55
 

By having both amps on for the same number of hours, and by using the same tubes in both I got a fair comparison between the two, except it wasn't a fair comparison because the ZMA has many hundreds of hours on it and the MK 5 is just passing about 200.  More importantly the ZMA has anniversary mods, and the MK5 does not.  The ZMA with anniversary mods is in almost a different league.

So we will have to wait until we have one with anniversary mods and burned-in to make a second comparison.  My guess is in the final analysis the ZMA will always win because it's power supply design is direct drive with almost 10 times the energy storage.

It's a joy to listen to on edgy or articulate speakers because it has no edge and leads the way in articulation.  

The difference between 20 and 40 watts is only 3dB, and the TORII's would be better at driving low impedances while the ZMA would be better with higher impedances so the scale can tilt either way between the two depending on speakers used.  

Hope that helps.

Steve

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Steve Deckert
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #111 - 08/12/21 at 05:32:04
 

We'll you should know I couldn't just let it lie there... right?  

I put a quad of Genalex KT77's in the TORII MK5 to see what would happen for the guy who wants to spend a bit more than an EL34, and dammit now to be 100% sure the ZMA is actually better I have to compare one more time...

The piano notes are harder and more lifelike with these tubes and the bass is more refined, flatter.  Really nice sounding tubes in this amp which is no surprise.

Honest to God I couldn't tell you which amp will win with it's own favorite tube compliments in the end once they are both anniversary modded.  The fact that this amp is cathode biased and has better output transformers means it is not impossible to beat the ZMA, but the ZMA power supply is so over the top that even against all that it may well still win.

Ahh, amp wars.  Brings back memories.  It's how Decware was started.  No, actually it was the process that built the confidence to start Decware.

Pitting one amp against the other and pulling out all the stops for each trying to be the best sounding.  It's how the Zen amp was developed.  Four years of taking two Zen amps and modifying each in a never ending battle against each other.  That is btw the secret.  Build an amp.  Like it.  See if you can build another just like it, that sounds just like it.  See if you can do it a 3rd time.  This proves the layout.  Then take one and put it in service in the garage and take the other two and listen to them to be certain they are identical.

Once this has been confirmed after months of burn-in, you take one and start to mess with it in an attempt to make it sound better than the other one.  If you succeed and it stays that way for a month or two, then it becomes the new champion.  You now take the looser, and see if you can refine it in such a way as to beat the present champion.  It's a lot of fun and immensely enlightening.  Like I said, this went on for almost four years before the first one was actually sold and then as we got past the first 25 amps, customer feedback refined it to another revision and another and another and another and another.

Any time you are the creator of two amps and are listening to them one against the other in the center of your universe with all your tools and toys and parts inventory only seconds away from the listening chair...  wonderful things can happen.  And interestingly in this entire process a computer or calculator is never used or needed because it is always faster to just solder-in and listen to 8 different value resistors than it is to model their effect on the circuit.  Trust your ears.  My guess is most spice models go through several revisions, at least 2 or more.  In that four years I went through 111 different variations of the same amp via amp wars model. All the while I had the original in the garage to bring back in for reference to see where I have taken things.

People think it's about parts, or about circuit superiority, or power, or whatever, but in reality it's about how many different revisions did you actually build and listen to in a treated listening room on no less than 10 pair of reference speakers.  If you build an amp with only one pair of speakers you will be sadly disappointed when you take it to your friends house and it sounds like crap...

So as I listen tonight to the non-anniversary modded TORII MK5 with different output tubes against the ZMA is the MK5 has more presence and is a bolder sound. The ZMA is more polished and refined. I don't think Anniversary Mods are going to reverse this behavior.  If anything it should push it harder in the other direction. That could well make the UFO transformers suddenly take things to a more lucid level making this amp sound more real.

I have to say the Russian interpretation of the British sound in this KT77 is really good.  More weight and depth, but still that wonderfully flat and honest take on things.  Very nice.

I can see this is going to become an ideal tube rolling amp. I sounds great on KT88's too and now curiosity is going to kill the cat...  

I think KT77's will be the upgrade tube for this amp in the shopping cart if we can keep them in stock.

This is a good example of one of the advantages of a cathode bias amps... one of the many advantages so long as you can live with lower power.  A ZMA can't use the KT77 because it bias too cold for the window I set in that amp.  Fixed bias amps have windows that limit the tube choices to protect the user from melting tube plates by setting the bias too high.  A Cathode bias amp is self regulating so the KT77 in the TORII MK5 bias up to 50 mills where it is happy.  In the ZMA it only would adjust up to 30 mills.

And of course on 100dB speakers like the ZF15L Zen Master Series Baffles I am listening to tonight, there is zero difference in perceived power between the two amplifiers at any volume I could possibly stand to listen to.


Steve



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Archie
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #112 - 08/12/21 at 06:43:14
 
What tubes are you running in the ZMA?  I suspect KT66s.  Have you ever tried 7027As?
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Steve Deckert
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #113 - 08/12/21 at 06:53:46
 

N.O.S. 7027 are my favorite.  Extreme resolution and dynamics beyond belief.   I was running KT88 in the ZMA and then TORII MK5 for the comparisons.  I have my ZMA modified to bias the KT88 at 60 mills.

Of course I haven't tried them yet in a MK5.

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Archie
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #114 - 08/12/21 at 16:45:23
 
I can't afford NOS 7027As but the Tungsol version seems nice.  I'd love to hear your impressions of that tube.  It's not expensive and could easily be supplied if so desired.  I bias mine at 64 ma.
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piezoman
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #115 - 08/21/21 at 04:48:04
 
Steve,
Now that you have the Holo May DAC, with its revelations do you expect to make any more changes to the MK V down the production line?

Also, about when do you anticipate the MK V be officially announced and the main website updated?

Brad
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GroovySauce
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #116 - 09/10/21 at 12:17:07
 
Steve, I ordered a pair of GL KT77's a few days before I read you really enjoyed the KT77's and are considering offering them as a premium option.

I've had 2 quads with a bad tube in a month. First 1 tube went bad in 3 weeks. Second quad from a different seller 1 tube went bad in 2 days.

Both cases the tube started to rattle, the tube rattle then was transmitted through one channel.

Is this common with the GL KT77's or a string of bad luck?

I've never had an issue like this with the KT66's, The KT77's do sound much better with my setup.
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yostjacob
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #117 - 10/12/21 at 15:05:51
 
Quote:
I want you all to know that the hellish feeling of trying to fix something that you can't find anything wrong with happens many times to all of us as we put together your amplifies via this painful process. Circuit boards eliminate this. You can see why Decware amplifiers sound like Decware amplifiers. It takes real men to face this dragon on a regular basis and always come out victorious because there is no other choice.


Ha!  Back when I did field work.  My basic project was 5 days.  The first day was introductions and physical work.  The 2nd and 3rd day, was the configuration work that I had carefully planned the week before.  The 5th day I did all of my customer turn over work.

But the 4th day....  The 4th day is what I called frown at it day.  There will be something, something, that surprises you.  And it had to get solved the 4th day.  Maybe the 4th day ran all way to the 5th day.  But it had to get solved.  Maybe i had to completely start over.  Maybe the manufacturer had a "feature" I had to work around while on site with the customer looking at me.

Its that day when we earn our pay.

Good luck soldier.  I look forward to the one you make for me.
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Dr3wman
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #118 - 10/14/21 at 22:37:51
 
In terms of the silkscreen.... is there an example of what that might look like?

The photos of the current MKV.......is that with, or without? I am not sure if it was already mentioned.

I have an MKV on order and am trying to decided which direction I want to go when I reach out to Sarah.

Thank you!
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piezoman
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #119 - 10/15/21 at 00:46:04
 
Dr3wman, see Steve's post #60 on page 2 of this thread. That is the silkscreened top.

I too have a Torii MK 5 on order, but opted for the non silkscreened top. The tech simply does the build with the top upside down, with the silkscreened side facing downward.

Brad
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Dr3wman
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #120 - 10/15/21 at 00:52:23
 
Brad -

Thanks very much.  I thought that was what Steve may have meant, but wanted to make sure I wasn't misreading/misinterpreting.


Andrew
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Torii MKV/25 mods
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will
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #121 - 10/15/21 at 02:45:46
 
Having master gain attenuators, I don't have experience with right and left gain knobs. And I might prefer the volume pot screens a little subtler, but I imagine I might really like the functionality for helping to set each side's gains to match when doing volume changes, which I do frequently... or to easily maintain differences of a notch or whatever if R/L balancing for tubes or room ever came up. So I guess if I were ordering one, I might follow Steve's alternative thought, and try to find a knob that covers most of it, but leaves at least the number marks for reference.

It might take a few experiments to find one that calms the look nicely while looking like it was meant to be there.... part of the design, but I bet this is possible.

Some thoughts anyway.
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yostjacob
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #122 - 10/15/21 at 17:21:50
 
My plan is to use the stepped attenuators and count the clicks.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #123 - 10/31/21 at 03:12:34
 

The TORII MK5 Owners Manual is here:  https://www.decware.com/newsite/TORIIMK5.pdf






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Dr3wman
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #124 - 10/31/21 at 03:26:41
 
Gorgeous! Stellar work, I can’t wait for my mine to arrive.
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Torii MKV/25 mods
PS Audio Stellar Phono Preamplifier
Technics SL-1200GR w/ Nagaoka MP-200.
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Geno
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #125 - 10/31/21 at 03:58:31
 
Beautiful Steve!  Is the white, rope looking, speaker cable the new stuff you’ve been working on?
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
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ZLC Power Cond.
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Tommy Freefall
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #126 - 10/31/21 at 04:01:07
 
What a beast!
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Torii MkIV w/ 25th ann mods
Rachael SE34I.5
Benchmark AHB2
ERRx
ZStage, ZRock2
Tascam CD-240
Border Patrol DAC
Benchmark DAC3 HGC
Bluesound Node
Zu Audio Mission speaker cables
Decware I/Cs
PI Audio MiniBUSS
Zenhead, Grado 325e
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piezoman
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #127 - 10/31/21 at 04:13:39
 
Quote:
 Gorgeous! Stellar work, I can’t wait for my mine to arrive.


Same here! Gonna be late summer next year
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Dr3wman
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #128 - 10/31/21 at 04:16:41
 
Me too!! Haha, I’m in the 550’s.
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Torii MKV/25 mods
PS Audio Stellar Phono Preamplifier
Technics SL-1200GR w/ Nagaoka MP-200.
KLH Model 3 speakers..
Sonos connect.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #129 - 11/01/21 at 01:45:45
 

Quote:
Beautiful Steve!  Is the white, rope looking, speaker cable the new stuff you’ve been working on?


It is the wire I am trying to beat ZSTYX with.  I'll start a thread on it when I have useful information.

Steve

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