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03/29/24 at 06:34:37 




Poll
Question: Which one will be more special?
*** This poll has now closed ***


Biamp:SuperZenx2 (poly bypass) CSP3 (poly bypass)  
  1 (20%)
Bridge:SuperZenx2 (poly bypass) CSP3 (poly bypass  
  3 (60%)
Zen Monoblocks x2 (base) CSP3 (base)  
  0 (0%)
Rachel (silver,copper bypass) Zstage  
  1 (20%)




Total votes: 5
« Created by: Arpin on: 06/28/21 at 18:37:31 »

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Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens (Read 22307 times)
Arpin
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Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
06/28/21 at 18:09:53
 
I’ve long been interested in biamping speakers but have always found that it is simply better to just move up the quality ladder and get one amp that costs as much as the two lower amps.

Everything I’ve read about Super Zens has deeply excited me as to the pureness and transparency available with them. And it got me thinking that a low powered biamp setup could be quite subtle and deep at the same. I am aware that the speakers will not necessarily have more Watts and that sounds just fine to me. This system I’m planning is going into a study/library and will be used principally for low level midnight listening or background to reading during the day. I’m not sure which speaker I’m going to settle on but I’m considering getting a specially upgraded Pendragon with solid core wiring on the inside.

I was considering using one Zen each for the left and right channels so that I could have a simple way to set the balance in the room. I was also looking at doing a CSP3 as the preamp which conveniently can be ordered with two stereo outs which seems perfect for biamping.

I’m wondering if anyone has tried this approach before and how it compares to bridging the Zens or just going with a Rachel?
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Arpin
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #1 - 06/28/21 at 18:21:53
 
Another option that seems to be relevant would be a pair of Zen mono blocks. I’ve read great things about these as well in the forums.

So any feedback on comparisons between Zens biamped, Zens bridged, a Rachel, or Zen Monos. With everything I would use a CSP3 except for the Rachel which I was thinking about a Zstage for my multibit CD player.
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Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #2 - 06/28/21 at 18:36:46
 
Great suggestion. I have a pair of the SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with the 25th Anniversary Mods and I'm completely enamored with them. I have no experience biamping at all.
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Arpin
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #3 - 06/28/21 at 18:37:31
 
Here is a quick poll that I’m hoping will give me some insights from the most experienced Decware fanatics in the world. I’m looking forward to becoming one myself.
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #4 - 06/28/21 at 21:20:50
 
I finally unboxed my Zen SE84UFO and attached it to corner horns.  Are you sure you need two amps?

I can easily exceed 90 db in a pretty large room.  Granted corner horns have over 100db sensitivity but I'm completely rethinking my plan of bi-amping them.  (Not that its out of the question just questioning the need)

If you really want two amps I would think that bi amping would be a better
as you are reducing the work load of the amp.  I have bi- amped both of my previous systems and was very please in the sound over a single amp.
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Arpin
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #5 - 06/28/21 at 22:55:34
 
Very cool to hear that you’ve done bi-amping and thought it was quality. That’s what I’m searching for. Something elusive in sonic signature. Whenever I’ve heard bi-amped systems they have usually offered something extra that is hard to nail down but remains obvious in comparison to a single stereo amp.

I’ve never enjoyed bridging for main speakers as I can always (hear) a reduction in SQ. Although, after reading comments by Steve and others on this forum perhaps the Zens buck that experience fundamentally.

Did you build your own corner horns from Steve’s plans?
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Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #6 - 06/29/21 at 04:07:31
 
I have two UFOs that I’m using as balanced monoblocs. They sound fantastic and I couldn’t be happier.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
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Arpin
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #7 - 06/29/21 at 05:52:37
 
Balanced monoblocks! Wow. Very clever. I suppose that the balanced configuration increases fidelity and presence? Any other kinds of sonic differences?
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Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

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Dana
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #8 - 06/29/21 at 06:15:53
 
Building corner horns is way above my skill set.  I bought an old pair of Speaker Lab SK horns (a Klipschhorn clone).  When I bought them I had all these plans of replacing all the drivers, horns and crossovers but the more I listen to them with just the one Zen amp I'm just floored with the sound. i think I just lucked out and the shape of my listening room just enhances the sound. My plan now is to wrap the mid range horn with car vibration mat and switch out the old capacitors and resistors with the same values but new better quality and see what happens.

The amp really magnifies changes.  Amazon just delivered two $35 10 AWG power cables for my amp and the DAC and power cables do make a difference,  who knew?

Can a 2 watt amp put out too much bass?  

This amp and speakers together are about two weeks old and just seem to get better with the amp burning in and minor changes like cables so I until I can get my arms around what I'm hearing I all my 40 years of  preconceived notions about stereo my not be valid.






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Tom Waits:
And the newspapers were fooling,
And the ash-trays have retired
'Cause the piano has been drinking,
The piano has been drinking
The piano has been drinking,
Not me, not me, not me, not me, not me
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Arpin
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Posts: 41
Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #9 - 06/29/21 at 07:10:51
 
Well I completely understand having long standing notions totally upended. This is why I’m actually understanding what Steve has been doing over here at Decware. I’ve been an audiophile since the 90s, have/had friends in the business both on the importing side and retail side. I worked part time (discount) at two stereo shops in California, hung out at probably every single hifi shop in the Bay Area. And I never considered cables that important.

This all changed when for fun I decided to solder together a $25 solid silver cable with silver plated RCAs. What I then heard on my main system after 20 years of ownership blew my mind. The difference wasn’t even close. I threw out all my interconnects and replaced everything ($400 of Chord RCAs) with DIY silver cables. On a lark, I decided to see what would happen if I replaced my speaker wire with 99.9% solid round 10 gauge copper inside Teflon tubing. It was unreal. I’ve replaced every cable I own with solid core DIY and continue to have my mind blown daily.

So when I noted that Steve was making his own silver cables and used point to point wiring I totally got it. He has been listening to the sound not the critics. Steve is likely going to be a legend. My guess is that his amps will be spoken of for decades to come. Maybe longer.

I must own a Decware system.
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Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

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CAJames
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #10 - 06/29/21 at 15:17:04
 
Quote:
Posted by: Arpin      Posted on: Today at 05:52:37
Balanced monoblocks! Wow. Very clever. I suppose that the balanced configuration increases fidelity and presence? Any other kinds of sonic differences?


For me, I just think balanced sounds better, more detailed and dynamic. And with 2 UFOs I have very short speakers cables and keep the signal balanced all the way to the speakers. I think differencing the balanced signals across the speaker terminals maximizes that advantages of a balanced signal path.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Arpin
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #11 - 06/29/21 at 16:47:16
 
How do you run a balanced signal to the regular SuperZen and how do you then send a balanced signal to the speakers. I’m assuming that the speakers just take unbalanced inputs.

Would it make sense to just do a SuperZen Select with balanced inputs or is there something a little more interesting/special happening with your approach?
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Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

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Arpin
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #12 - 06/29/21 at 16:53:23
 
I saw that someone voted for a Rachel with copper bypass and Zstage. This was going to be my initial approach to setting up a Decware system until I started reading Steve’s development thread on the 25th Anniversary Amp. And then reading how people described even the “entry level” SuperZen really made me ponder things.

I bring it up because if I were to do a Rachel topped out with upgrades does it offer anything sonically (not loudness wise) over a SuperZen with poly bypass.
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Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

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CAJames
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #13 - 06/29/21 at 17:36:59
 
Quote:
Posted by: Arpin      Posted on: Today at 16:47:16
How do you run a balanced signal to the regular SuperZen and how do you then send a balanced signal to the speakers. I’m assuming that the speakers just take unbalanced inputs...


Look on page 17 of the UFO manual:

https://www.decware.com/newsite/SE84UFO-MANUAL.pdf

and it explains how to wire the UFO for balanced operation (also bridged "regular mono"). Basically you need a special XLR to 2xRCA cable and use the L and R channel of a stereo amp for the + and - phase of a balanced channel. The speaker input doesn't care whether the signal is relative to ground (unbalanced) or the negative phase (balanced).


Quote:
Posted by: Arpin      Posted on: Today at 16:47:16

...Would it make sense to just do a SuperZen Select with balanced inputs or is there something a little more interesting/special happening with your approach?


I'm doing something different, maintaining the balanced signal through the amps all the way to the speakers.

The balanced inputs use a transformer to difference the balanced signal and make it single ended before it is amplified. Decware also sells the the ZBIT which does the same thing in a self contained package so you can put it anywhere in you signal path. And a lot of people around here like that, but I prefer keeping the balanced signal balanced to the speaker. Note also buying a second UFO for this purpose isn't that much more $$$ than the Zen select with the XLR input and you get some extra watts as a bonus.

Of course this really only matters if you source is truly balanced, like if your DAC does seperate conversion for the + and - phase of each channel. Just because a component has XLR output (or input) doesn't mean the signal is actually differential.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Arpin
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Posts: 41
Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #14 - 06/29/21 at 17:47:35
 
Got it. Very cool.

Yeah, I don’t have any balanced sources and not sure if I’ll ever go that way, but if I did have balanced sources this approach seems to be one of the more interesting approaches I’ve seen to balanced. This approach of using a SuperZen in a mono balanced way keeps signal purity all the way through to the speakers. I’ve always been uninterested in balanced previously precisely because there seemed to be no clean way to run a balanced signal to a speaker. This would be worth hearing.
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Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #15 - 06/29/21 at 17:48:39
 
Hi Arpin, Here's something that is not in the poll-
I'm using two mono blocked Zens on my woofers
,and a SE34I.2 stereo amp for the tweeters.
Similar output wattage with ability to adjust output for each amp.
The 34 amp is a little softer than the zens which are a little more punchier.
Works great for my system.
Although I should state that my pre-amp (Supratek Dual Cabernet) has two outputs, one driven by a 101d and the other a 6h30. I use the triode 101d for the SE34i.2 and the 6h30 for driving the Zens.

I took the SE34i.2 amp out a while ago, as I was going to sell ,and ran the speakers with the mono-blocked zens.
Tried both outputs from my pre (101d and 6h30) and the magic or whatever its called went away, so right back in it went and have no desire to sell the SE34i.2 amp now.

Just something different to think about!   TISH
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Arpin
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #16 - 06/30/21 at 22:09:45
 
The variety of ways to utilize these amps is pretty amazing. It's hard for me to think of a single hifi amp in this price range (or really any price range) that has the flexibility of Decware amps. SuperZen, Rachel, mono blocks, etc.

I appreciate all of the responses I've gotten so far on this thread.
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Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

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Geno
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #17 - 09/26/21 at 18:07:16
 
CA,

I’m considering getting a second SE84UFO, and running them as monoblocs - but I’m a bit confused about exactly how to accomplish this, technically challenged as I am🤨

I’ve attached Steve’s example from the owners manual, but isn’t the drawing incorrect? It shows the single wire running from negative to negative on the amp, and positives on the amp running to positive and negative at the speaker.



Also, he mentions a separate Y cable. Isn’t this the altered XLR cable as it connects to the amp inputs?

Also, did you rig this XLR on your own, or do you have it made, and by whom?

To further complicate things, I’m running a biamped setup now, using a subwoofer amp to drive bass drivers. This is accomplished by running a single wire (with resistor in line) from each positive speaker terminal to the sub amp. What would I do differently there? I guess a second sub amp - one for each channel?

Sorry for the twenty questions, but this is WAY above my pay grade😵‍💫

Thanks for the help,

Geno
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
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Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
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Re: Vertical bThe i-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #18 - 09/26/21 at 18:50:39
 
The description for mono with 1) and 2) is not the same as running them balanced which is illustrated using xlr to rca.
Follow the written instructions for mono series operation.
Follow the illustration for balanced operation with balanced xlr source.
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #19 - 09/26/21 at 19:00:35
 
“I see” said the blind man. I was trying to look at the example shown as all and the same. Thanks Lin. You and CA are definitely the tech guys, as far as my opinion goes anyway.

Best,

Geno
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Geno
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #20 - 09/26/21 at 19:03:28
 
But, what about having the special XLR to 2-RCA cable made? I’d want to pursue the balanced version.
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Lin
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #21 - 09/26/21 at 19:33:51
 
Anyone that makes cables can do it.
Premade ones that I have seen (1 xlr to 2 rca) just split the signal like a Y connector.
XLRs have a positive, negative, and ground, the + and - need to be separated.
As shown, run positive and ground from XLR to one rca, run the negative and ground from XLR to another rca.
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Lin
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #22 - 09/26/21 at 19:39:36
 
What amplifier are you using to run the subwoofer?
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #23 - 09/26/21 at 20:48:27
 
Lin,

I’m using a Crown XLS 1002.
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Lin
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #24 - 09/26/21 at 21:24:53
 
Geno,
You have 2 bass drivers and are using the Crown in stereo?
Seems to me you would keep it the same way, one off of each side/tube amp.

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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #25 - 09/26/21 at 22:28:22
 
Yep. Two bass drivers driven from the Crown.


Seems to me you would keep it the same way, one off of each side/tube amp.


One more stupid question. How would I wire this? One positive speaker terminal on each amp - one from each amp to left/right inputs on the sub amp? Or would I need to Y each Zen so that I’m coming off of both positives from each amp to inputs on the sub amp?
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Lin
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #26 - 09/27/21 at 00:04:45
 
In the diagram you posted, one positive speaker post goes to your main speaker positive, the other positive goes to the main speaker negative. One amp, one speaker. You can no longer look at the binding posts and think in terms of red is positive and black is negative.

The reason for this is because of the way they are wired at the input, one side (output tube) is the positive half of the signal and the other side (output tube) is the negative half. Now one red post is positive (same side as positive xlr signal) and the other red post is negative.

Positive post from left amp to left rca in on the Crown.
Positive post from the right amp to the right rca in on the Crown.

Hope this makes sense.




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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #27 - 09/27/21 at 00:15:17
 
Hey Geno,

Just getting caught up with this. I run my UFOs as balanced monoblocks, and yes, pretty much anyone who makes cables can make the the XLR -> 2x RCA splitters. I actually made a pair myself but they were pretty rough. I got a pair from:

http://signalcable.com/index.html, just send him an email explaining what you want. I think it was $99 for a 5 foot pair.

Also https://www.ebay.com/itm/124295003300?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=42518590... does really good work in my experience.

The pro tip is to ask specifically for the + phase to be the red RCA, that way you know which speaker terminal is which. See below re: your subwoofer amp.

As Lin says, you don't want to get off-the-self cables, they don't do what you need. I wish Decware sold these cables, that would make it lot easier (and maybe sell more amps...). The way I think about this is you are using the L and R channel of a stereo amp for the + and - phase of a balanced mono signal.

What is your source? This only matters if your source is truly balanced, and not just a single ended signal on an XLR output. I think the balanced monoblocks are fantastic, and if you pursue this you're going to be very happy.

About your subwoofer amp, you just need to know the + terminal on the side of your red connector (pro tip above) is the same as the positive connection on your current speaker and other + terminal is the negative/return/black connection.

This can be kinda confusing, but soooo worth it. Let me know if you have any other questions.


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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Lin
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #28 - 09/27/21 at 00:21:56
 
One source is a Cambridge streaming unit, I can't find any specific information, but Cambridge calls the XLR out "balanced".
He also lists a turn table, R2R, and a ZBIT.

The benefit is lessened with non balanced sources (TT/R2R).
Wiring them mono would work just as well.
Passive bi-amping with 2 UFOs is a waste of money IMO.
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #29 - 09/27/21 at 01:49:26
 
You guys are great. I really appreciate your help!

We have a horse of a slightly different color on the Cambridge DAC. It has been modified by Dan Wright of ModWright. If I’m reading correctly, both RCA’s and XLR’s are balanced as part of the mods. I’ve included a photo. Look at the numbered items to see what’s included:



So, I still need the y cable, but I can use either the RCA or XLR out of the DAC?

Also, is a picture of the back of the Crown sub amp:



I guess the real question is, how much will I benefit from this, as I listen to albums and R2R almost as much as music files? I don’t use streaming services at all, but just play files from my NAS to the DAC via WiFi.

Sorry it took me so long to respond. I had to get my presentation together☺️
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #30 - 09/27/21 at 02:04:26
 
I play CDs and files (and a few LPs) and I know nothing about streamers, and literally just saw the modwright page that you posted. So yes, it looks like your Cambridge is in fact "fully balanced."  If you want the balanced connection you need the XLR splitter to your UFOs.

But if that isn't your primary source then it's a tough call about how much you benefit. For me personally, I really like balanced, and my preamp (a Woo Audio WA22) is fully balanced as is my DAC. I also really like monoblocks for the short speaker cables and separate power supplies, so the balanced UFOs were a nobrainer for me (in fact that is the reason I went with them). I didn't do it for the extra watts, but it seems like they are a happy bonus when I get a chance to crank things up. So I'd say there is a benefit, but whether is it worth it to you is your call.

Of course, it is possible that once you hear how good your Cambridge sounds through a fully balanced connection you will start listening to it more !
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
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Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #31 - 09/27/21 at 02:48:04
 
Thanks again, CA and Lin.

All of your input gives me food for thought.

Very best,

Geno
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #32 - 09/27/21 at 02:49:12
 
The extra watts are only 3 dBs, a little bit, but not much.

I think* what people probably* notice** most with mono SE84 amps is the output impedance is cut in half, which means less speaker frequency response modification from the amp.

* I use think and probably in this post because I realize I could be completely wrong Smiley
**even though most probably don't know this fun fact
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #33 - 09/27/21 at 02:53:06
 
Conventional mono operation gives you some benefit with all sources.
Just sayin' Smiley
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #34 - 09/27/21 at 03:32:51
 
I agree Lin. Based on our exchanges, that may very well be the way to go.

The thing that I have not mentioned with all this is the fact that I have fallen in love with an 18 wpc 1969 SS Sansui Integrated Amp that I acquired. It sounds so right with my open baffles.

I was really hoping that another Zen might give me a bit more headroom as well as the clarity.
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #35 - 09/27/21 at 03:54:46
 
If you don't already (and you can), place your amps where they are easy to swap in and out.
Keep what you have and enjoy them for what they do. Cheesy  
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #36 - 09/27/21 at 04:00:55
 
I’ve been doing exactly that. Totally different sound, and I do enjoy both. The Sansui just has that extra “something”.

Blasphemy on this Decware forum, I know, but…
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
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SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #37 - 09/27/21 at 15:27:48
 
Quote:
Posted by: Geno      Posted on: Today at 04:00:55
I’ve been doing exactly that. Totally different sound, and I do enjoy both. The Sansui just has that extra “something”.

Blasphemy on this Decware forum, I know, but…



Since you bring up blasphemy... and I mean this in a totally nonjudgemental way, cuz everyone has her or his own priorities and tastes... but its funny because for as long as I've been on this site my impression is some folks are putting in a bunch of time and effort to make their Decware amps sound more like.... 300B amps. Not that there is anything wrong with that. .
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #38 - 09/28/21 at 00:33:08
 
I do get what you mean, though in my case I move the system towards sounding more like . . .the classic system I grew up with, which was a Dynaco tuner, preamp, amp and AR Turntable in a really wonderful cherry wood cabinet that had 12" ElectroVoice full-range speakers built in. As my system is necessarily housed and placed in a similar way in my "negotiated" listening space (all components on a Samson Ver. 3 rack and the HR-1s pretty darn close to either side of the rack) I guess that is why I am leaning to that sort of presentation, though the room pretty much shapes that as well.

What I love about the system sound I have now is that more than ever it sounds like the best of solid state and tube to me. I get the body and dimensionality of tubes, but without the slow richness; I get the dynamics and punch of solid state but without the edge and grain. And things disappear enough that I become engrossed in the music and just keep spinning discs. . . and finding more discs to introduce into the system. I never thought life would be this good in this particular way. It is, and I'm grateful.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #39 - 10/13/21 at 03:37:31
 
Well guys, I found another SET amp to pair with my Zen, and will setup the balanced connection.

I have 2 candidates to make the needed XLR to Y-RCA cables. Both know exactly what I need, but neither seem to be in much of a rush to give me a price. The other amp will be here Thursday, so I don’t want to have to wait very long for the needed cables.

The plan is to use the tube amps primarily for balanced digital play from my DAC, but I can swap to a standard connection pretty quickly. I have 3 vintage solid state amplifiers now that I will use primarily with my phono and R2R play.

I never thought that I’d be able to enjoy solid state after listening to Decware tubes for the last close to 4 years. But there is a synergy between the SS amps (Early 70’s Sansui & Pioneer) and my Lii Open Baffles. It is a nice flip side to a very special audio coin, the other side being my tube setup.

So, over the next few weeks, as this all comes together, stand by for probable stupid technical questions, and I thank you in advance  :)
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #40 - 10/13/21 at 18:35:25
 
I'm surprised no one is in a hurry to sell you custom cables, but I guess a lot of things surprise me these days.

Looking forward to your updates in any case.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #41 - 10/13/21 at 18:46:44
 
Hey Geno. I can make you some custom cables that might explode your brain. They aren’t super pretty, but they work! I’ll post some photos of some of my “interesting” work when I have a chance today.

I use either solid 3N copper (very affordable) or 4N silver and I can fill you in regarding connector options.

What solid core does is eliminate time smearing caused by quantum tunneling between strands. It sounds bizarre but I can tell you that time smearing seems to equally effect bass and treble. Connector and jacks quality also matters. I’ve tried every option and combination on a wide variety of systems so I’ll be able to diagnose the best solution for you based on your budget.

And frankly speaking, the SQ gains from solid core 3N are as amazing as the solid core 4N silver. The main difference to me is really nuanced. Silver has some benefits associated with a higher prevalence of options vs copper connectors and jacks. The solid silver connectors and heavily plated jacks definitely sound better.

PM me if you want to have simple wire sound leagues better than any stranded wire ever could.
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Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #42 - 10/14/21 at 01:51:51
 
Thanks Arpin. PM sent.
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #43 - 10/14/21 at 19:39:49
 
I found someone to make the XLR to Y cables. Attached is a description. You choose termination type at each end. Female XLR at one end and male RCA’s at the Y end. They said balanced, but I want verification. This is from Morrow Audio.

 

Thanks,

Geno
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #44 - 10/14/21 at 21:25:20
 
Here's an example of some of my "handy" work. It's not the most beautiful thing to look at but it is pure solid silver Eichmann bullet to solid 24ga 4N silver, to rhodium plated 3.5mm. It cost around $50 in parts excluding time to make. I'm fundamentally lazy but the SQ on this stuff is next level.
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IMG_9597.jpg

Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #45 - 10/14/21 at 21:26:55
 
That file size was clearly too big.
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IMG_9597_001.jpg

Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #46 - 10/14/21 at 21:37:02
 
Arpin, I sent you a PM yesterday about possibly making a pair of Balanced XLR to Y-RCA cables for me.
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #47 - 10/14/21 at 22:13:27
 
These look a bit like my DIY speaker cables I made out of soft 14 ga solid silver.  They use Teflon tubing around the wire with the two leads gently twisted together and covered in a mesh sheath.  I started with bare ends but I eventually soldered on Cardas solid copper bananas.

I terminated the tubes and sheath with waterproof heat shrink tubing to keep out the air.  I like them and not hard to make.  I used a recipe from a DIY site.
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ZP3 (25th A Mods)
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #48 - 10/14/21 at 22:16:10
 
Geno, the Morrows will just be Y splitters with the same signal going to both rca plugs.
What you need will be custom and you will need to communicate with them on construction.
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #49 - 10/14/21 at 22:18:30
 
replying presently. It's a long message and I'm doing some research into parts as I type.
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Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #50 - 10/14/21 at 22:57:15
 
Lin,

That's what I thought, and why I wanted verification. Thank you!


Archie,

Those look pretty cool, but I don't trust myself trying to make anything like this. Thank you very much for the info!


I've been in contact with Arpin, and he may make a pair for me.

Thanks all for your help and suggestions on this.

Geno

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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #51 - 10/15/21 at 01:17:44
 
Speaker cables are easy but ICs look to be more complicated with the small wires and soldered connections.
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #52 - 10/15/21 at 11:20:11
 
Well my system is tri amped, I am using the UFO amp on just the mids and nothing could be better!!! My speakers started out as Klipsch Corner horns, they have been modded and upgraded with 2" BMS drivers, full tractrix wooden horns and Fostex tweeters.... I have reached then end of my search  for audio Nirvana, my system has been setup this way for about 3-4 years now and I will not be changing it anymore...
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #53 - 10/15/21 at 21:21:04
 
Wow, JC.  That sounds very cool. Bet it sounds fantastic!
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #54 - 10/17/21 at 01:47:57
 
A lot has happened with me on this balanced monoblock project. I finally got CA’s recommended cable guys, SignalCable, on making me a pair of the proper cables. And also, forum member Arpin has been gracious enough to offer to make a pair too. I will have an old fashioned shoot out between the two ☺️

Also, I just bought a used Spud Kit amp to use along with my SE84. The Spud sounds pretty similar to my Zen. I have enjoyed listening to it very much the last few days. It will do nicely for the other channel. I ordered a second Zen the other day, but the Spud may be nice enough that I can possibly cancel the Zen order on down the line. That’s one good thing about having as long a wait time for Decware components. There had to be something positive about the wait time🤯
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #55 - 10/17/21 at 16:43:58
 
Very cool Geno. So when you get the cables (a couple of weeks?) you'll have everything you need to fire up the balanced connections?
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #56 - 10/17/21 at 19:08:20
 
This is going to be fun. My home brew solid core vs non solid core. And here’s the best part. It’s going to be 22awg solid copper 3N vs 22awg stranded copper. I’m doing gold plated XLR connectors to gold plated RCAs. It should all be done within two weeks.

Given my personal experiments with stranded vs solid core I think /hope/ I’m going to win this show down. So far my experiments have been only with friends and family though, so not exactly an unbiased test. Granted, many of who have taken the experiment have been very skeptical. Which, has been my stance until recently since I’ve got a lot of small test cases in which I’ve narrowed down my experiments to changing just one component at a time.

Also props to Geno for going for it. This is really what audiophilia is all about. Trying out different approaches for the best sound.

I have a bedroom system composed of some bargain basement hifi equipment. A LM1875 chip amp, Elac B4, and a Panasonic SL-NP500 with original issue power adapter. I’m running 16ga solid copper wire between the binding posts. I made a 22ga copper 3.5mm to copper plated RCAs. That sounded amazing vs my basic interconnects. So then I opened up my chip amp and unsoldered three runs of stranded signal wire and resoldered with solid copper airgapped in Teflon. Then because that sounded so much better I reluctantly opened up my Elacs and pulled out all the stranded and replaced it all with 16ga solid copper. Results have been incredible and absolutely everything improved.
Cool
Big thanks to Geno on this.
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Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

Panasonic multibit, Verum, Etymotic, Elac, Pioneer, Schiit
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #57 - 10/17/21 at 19:08:58
 
Yep, a few weeks on the cables. I think that is all I’m waiting on to make it happen.

Thanks again for bringing this to light, and helping me to understand it all. You too Lin.

Best,

Geno
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #58 - 10/17/21 at 19:15:58
 
No. Thank you, Arpin. I really appreciate your willingness to do this.

You may end up the Decware forum resident cable dude.

But don’t thank me - thank CA and Lin. They brought this all to light.

I am really looking forward to hearing the results😎
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #59 - 10/17/21 at 19:29:10
 
Don't thank me , thank Steve. He designed and built the amps and put the picture in the manual about how to do this. All I did was post about it on a message board.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #60 - 10/17/21 at 20:03:49
 
The Decware forums are fantastic. There are so many honest and earnest people on this forum that it is just a breath of fresh air. It seems like Steve's amps, speakers, and personality have really created a focal point for so many like minded explorers of music and sound reproduction.

At times I just enjoy reading through old forum posts on topics. A wealth of information from so many people.
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Exposure Super XV, Exposure CD (original), Rega Planar 3 (1986 - solid silver rewire), Dynavector DV20XH, Neat Acoustics Mystique II, DIY solid silver interconnects, DIY solid copper speaker wire.

Panasonic multibit, Verum, Etymotic, Elac, Pioneer, Schiit
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #61 - 11/03/21 at 19:47:51
 
I now have my two amps running as fully balanced monoblocks (just a month ago, I did not even know what that is, much less, how to set it up Shocked)

I can't believe that this is not talked about more, especially by Steve, so that folks know about this type of connection. The sound quality improved by 20% with this configuration. Truly amazing. And this is with a Super Zen on one side, and a Spud Kit on the other. I ordered a second Zen to replace the Spud, and I know this will make it that much better.

A special thanks to CA and Lin for their guidance with this - I am a music guy, and not technical at all. It took time for me to understand the process.

And thanks to forum member Arpin, for jumping in to volunteer to make the special XLR to Y-RCA cables. He even threw in a complimentary set of speaker wire. He is a proponent of Solid Core wire - both copper and silver - and after I got all of this in the line up, I can see why. I am using the solid core copper for my speaker wire, and it is outstanding! It is as good or better than the 10 awg version of Steve's 8 awg Styx cable that it replaced. And the XLR copper cables he made are much better than the ones I had made by Signal Cable.

He has been trying to persuade me to try the solid silver instead, including solid silver connectors. He says that quality jumps way up. As good as the copper is, I believe him. I'll prolly end up going for it.

This stuff is highly recommended. For those looking for real quality interconnect and speaker cable, at a reasonable cost, get in touch with Arpin. He has it going on. Smiley
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #62 - 11/03/21 at 23:03:57
 
Excellent! I’m really glad you’re happy with the balanced connection.
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #63 - 11/04/21 at 01:05:09
 
Thank you Geno for the positive feedback. Super glad that everything is working out. I was hoping that another audiophile would hear what I'm hearing. Geno has a really nice setup (saw and heard some of it on YouTube) and it was nice to swap notes with someone else with a strong ear that isn't family or close friend.

The speaker wire thing was a real mind-boggler for me. I already was able to hear some major differences through my headphones and interconnects with solid silver wire, so I started fantasizing about doing solid silver wire to my speakers. To get the right gauge I figured I'd need 12gauge for my power output. The main problem I had was that I just didn't want to spend $800 plus dollars on silver wire without knowing if it would sound better. And that's just parts cost to me. If I were to buy that gauge from some of the people out there I was looking at around $1600 to $2500. A giant pile of money for wire... But the more I listened to my solid core interconnects and headphone cable, I started to get desperate. I wondered if I could get some decent copper. Turns out the answer was yes. I found out that I could get 10ga copper wire with solid copper bananas and tubing for an all in parts cost of around $120. And I definitely had $120. So I purchased all this stuff on eBay and AliExpress and when I hooked it up, it was like a miracle of sound occurred. Solid core wiring isn't very subtle. And anytime a thinly plated jack, plug, or connector is replaced with solid silver or copper, or just omitted, the conductivity is increased by around a factor of 5 at that junction point. And it is just an obvious difference. After hearing this I decided to have some "fun" and purchased hundreds of feet of 99.9% copper wire of all different gauges and different tubing gauges. In my bedroom I was using silver interconnects, but replaced them with copper interconnects, connectors, jacks, and replaced all of the internal wiring of my bedroom amp and ElacB4 with 16ga copper for output and 22ga copper for input signal. I did one upgrade at a time, even one Elac at a time. It was stunning. Totally inverted all my years of hifi sales experience and listening experiences on ridiculous systems. The goal was to see just how viable this solid core wiring theory was. I replaced all the wiring on my home theater system, interconnects to subs, inside the subs, inside the speakers with all air gapped solid copper. Took me about two months, but after each experiment I wanted to go further and further. My wife was really starting to wonder about my mental health, as was I frankly. I've been making this stuff for gifts and pay for my friends and family. Once they hear it, they immediately put the stranded "stuff" in a box never to be seen again. I like the wiring look quite a bit, especially as I've been using transparentish teflon tubing, so you get that metallic glimmer as you walk by, reminding you that magic things lay in store when you press play or drop the needle.

So what I sent to Geno at no charge was 16ga 99.9% copper wire inside 12ga teflon tubing. Based on his setup of just 2W per channel, I knew that he had quality binding posts that he could do direct connections to the bare copper, which according to the theory is supposed to be best. I use that same cable bare without bananas on my bedroom amp which is around 8W output.

Having been an audiophile since the 90s and having sold wires to customers (of which I always encouraged to buy entry level Audioquest since I wasn't a believer of expensive cables) I realize the horror show that is consumer audiophile wiring. So I have zero plans to be a competitor of AntiCables (which is solid copper but contact encased). Going the route of AntiCables, which I've never heard... the theory says this: that his wires should eliminate the major source of time smearing caused by quantum tunneling across the strands (which induces a phase shift and subsequent smearing and cancelation effects), but that contact encasing he uses will create a sort of dielectric effect exactly where the current is flowing, which is mostly on the surface above 1500Hz. That dielectric effect is causing the current to ever so slightly drag on the surface relative to the interior current flow and would sound like a gradual and gentle time smear rather than the fuzzy time smearing you hear with stranded wire. I like AntiCables' choice of single contact point Eichmann bullet style connectors (that's what I personally use) BUT I use the solid silver only versions. They cost more, but holy cow do they sound amazing. And the goal of solid core wire theory is to avoid any plating of any kind if possible. One thing I haven't tried but intend to is a solid copper bullet style. Someone in Taiwan is making these so I'm wanting to grab a few and test those out on my copper only interconnects.

Sorry, I keep writing these ridiculously long replies about what almost feels like a magical fantasy in my head. But you guys have been really respectful which I appreciate. At this point I'm just looking to help out people on a one-to-one basis and vow to never make a "hifi wire company" because I don't want to grow a company over ten years and then go bankrupt. As a hifi salesperson I was that excessive talker guy. You know the guy. Would rather talk for two hours to another audiophile and not make a sale than talk to a plebeian and make a sale. I managed to do pretty well over the years, but my favorite part was the talking Cheesy

Okay... I really have to get to work now.
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #64 - 11/04/21 at 16:21:41
 
Arpin. I'm gonna need another 100 ft. of the copper speaker wire. I have to get my solid state amps fixed up too!

Just one long piece, and I will cut it to the lengths I need.  If it's easier to make, two 50' pieces will be good.

Thanks,

Geno
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #65 - 11/04/21 at 17:41:49
 
Sent response by email.
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #66 - 07/31/23 at 15:16:11
 

Elsewhere, I recently responded with interest to a discussion on bridging two UFO25 amps into a monobloc. I started searching around, which brought me to this location. I read the posts from mid-2021 and wanted to discuss the topic again.

The monobloc/bi-amping concept is new to me. I had seen it referred to a few times but had yet to give it much thought. Even now, some of the posts were a stretch. I threw my hands up more than once, shouting at the cat that this monobloc idea made no sense. However, after reading more, I think I am getting it. For example, I concluded that I could do this and integrate my ZBit and Zrock2 into the chain, but I still seek confirmation of that conclusion.

As I have found some answers to my initial questions, I'll ask one here that has me hung up. In a bi-amping illustration, Steve shared a diagram depicting the connection between a DAC and the two amps. The cables used, I assume, were XLR to RCA. In my case, I would go from DAC to ZBit via XLR cables, ZBit to Zrock2 via RCA cables, and then ZRock2 to amps via RCA cables. If that's right, the next step is where I need clarification. I would need to split the two RCA cables coming out of the ZRock, then with (2) more pairs of RCA cables connected to each amp.  

Does that sound correct? It sounds like many cables, so I wonder if I'm on the right track. Also, since it does not conform to Steve's diagram, am I missing something?  

Thanks for your assistance to those who might know or have some ideas.
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #67 - 07/31/23 at 16:29:02
 
There is a lot going on, let me see if I can help.

Bi-amping vs monoblocs: Both involve 2 amps and 2 speakers. Monoblocs refer to using a single amp to power a single speaker vs. a "traditional" stereo amp that powers both. More on this below. Bi-amping typically refers to using one amp (generally low power tube) to power high frequency drivers of both speakers and another (generally high power SS) to power the bass. IMO this sounds good in theory (if you have the right speakers) but is a PITA in real life and I'll have no more to say about it, but of course other might have different opinions. Note also I consider "bi-amping" different than using a dedicated subwoofer amp for a low frequency driver, but I'm always up for a semantic discussion if it is important.

Monoblocs with UFO amps can be done two ways: balanced or single ended, see page 17 of the UFO manual for details on the connections. But note that the diagram is for the balanced connection, explanation of the single ended connection is in the text. Both require a special cable. For single ended you need an RCA -> 2x RCA splitter. Essentially you use both the L and R channels of a stereo amp for either the L or R channel coming out of your ZRock. The splitter goes at the amp end and is very short so you still only need one pair RCA cables from ZRock to amps.

For balanced you need a XLR -> 2x RCA splitter. Balanced is essentially a 4 channel signal (+ and - phases of both L and R channels) so you use the L and R channel of a stereo amp for the + and - phases of either the L or R channel coming out of your balanced DAC. This maintains the balanced signal all the way to the speakers, rather than using e.g the ZBit to convert to single ended before you amplify.

For me, I like the idea of maintaining the balanced signal all the way to the speakers, and I like the idea of monoblocs close to the speakers with very short speaker cable. That is why I choose the balanced monobloc option. But others have different wants and needs.
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #68 - 07/31/23 at 19:26:46
 
Above, CAJames said:

There is a lot going on, let me see if I can help.

Thanks for the clarifications with Bi-amping and monoblocs, then with balanced and single-ended monoblocs.  

I want to start with a balanced monobloc configuration.  I can see in Steve's diagram how this is illustrated, going from DAC to amp 1 and then to amp 2.  I cannot see where the ZRock and ZBit placement would fit into this chain.

There must be splitters coming out of the ZRock that go to Amp 1 and then to Amp 2.

Would the balanced monobloc configuration eliminate the use of ZRock and ZBit?

My answer to myself immediately is that it can't be correct. However, I did think you were implying that with to ZBit.

Tony
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #69 - 07/31/23 at 20:02:07
 
CaJames explained the difference well. Tony I think your looking for these,:
https://www.decwareproducts.com/product-page/se84-bridging-kit-without-sleeves
HTH
John
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #70 - 07/31/23 at 20:28:00
 
Quote:
Posted by: Tony      Posted on: Today at 11:26:46

...Would the balanced monobloc configuration eliminate the use of ZRock and ZBit?



The short answer is yes. What the ZBit does is convert the balanced signal to single ended. So once you put a ZBit in front of your amp(s) you no longer have a balanced signal and can no longer do the "balanced monobloc thing." The ZRock is single ended so you can't use it on a balanced signal. It may be possible to use 2 ZRocks with the XLR -> RCA splitters and maintain your balanced signal but that is highly speculative on my part.

Let me ask you this: are clear on the difference between balanced and single ended audio signal? I don't want to sound patronizing, or launch into (yet another) monolog if it isn't needed. But I'm sensing that might be important information you are missing.
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #71 - 07/31/23 at 20:41:58
 
CAJ, your eplanation was so exemplary, it opened many questions.
In fact this entire thread has brought one main question to my mind. I hope someone has an answer or at least some guidance.

Now I will start by admitting that I do not own a balanced (indoor, polite) source, yet, and so most of what I would like to have clarified is purely academic at this stage of my "sitting and listening" adventure.

As an old school sound reinforcement guy, I am fully aware of what balanced lines do for a sound system, so there's not much clarification needed there.

I also must admit that I do not own any new Decware amps. Mine are both from the 2004 era, a few serial numbers apart, but very early generation. SE84C variety.
I have LOVED them since I got them and they have served me well, to make the most understated comment possible.
I use them set for mono (with what you have called single ended) for ages, basically since about '06 when I acquired my second.

At one point, I had three and actually I used a traditional bi-amped configuration (no need to explain any of bi-amping, tri-amping, quad-amping, etc. to me either. And YES, you are correct, using a subwoofer amp to enhance low frequencies is NOT bi-amping. Period!) with one amp in stereo driving my full rangers, 8" and the two others each set for mono operation driving two fifteens per side for lows. It sounded great! I used them that way for many years.

However, I gave my newest one to a friend who had suffered a housefire and lost everything. I also helped him a bit by giving him a set of some kludged Valencias I built, SAE pre, turntable and a few more audio gadgets and some media and cabling to get him up and going again in his new home.

So, I now have two old Decware SET amps, I use in mono mode.  Super simple as you reflected before.

My question is concerning the use of the amps in a balanced scenario, where the input to the amps is configured as in the UFO manual you mentioned and the speaker output is taken across the two positive terminals, instead of the two amp channels being run in series as in the way mono operation was originally posed, with the jumper from negative to positive on the amps speaker terminals and the speaker output signal taken from one positive on one channel and one negative on the other channel.

This old way works fine, BTW. I have used it for ages and even at ridiculously low impedances at one time.
Now I just use the two amps in mono driving my two F15 Lii Audio drivers, nothing else.

Sometimes, I have a McIntosh amp driven from the speaker outs through a custom impedance matching cable I made up for "high level" output to line level McIntosh input for powering a subwoofer system.
SO, no real affect there to worry about.

My question is, when I finally acquire a balanced source, create the proper signal cable, do I then parallel the two negative speaker outputs and take my speaker signal from the two positive terminals?
Is that how I maintain the balanced signal all the way to the speaker terminals?

I know in troubleshooting solid state amps in the past which had mono configurations built in and specifically designed to be balanced from front end to speaker end, they all had a similar arrangement, with the mono configuration requiring that the speaker output come from the two Positive speaker outputs.

Is this a characteristic of balanced signal consistency or is this type of connection a part of how the amplifier is designed internally?

I mean I want to go full balanced in the near future, but the last thing I want to do is blow my beautiful classic, old school SE84Cs!

Any help would be appreciated.
I do not yet own a balanced source, but I'm gathering all the information I can, before I have to call Steve and take him away from his important work for my annoying little questions.

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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #72 - 07/31/23 at 21:25:20
 

The short answer is yes

That one statement helps a lot.

I kept going back to figure out how to put the ZRock2 back into the chain. I thought you implied the removal of ZBit. Yet, those options seemed so "un-Decwarian" to me; I kept thinking I was missing something.

I do not feel "patronized," so explaining what may seem basic is appreciated. An excellent example of my level of understanding is that I could not imagine that a balanced monobloc would exclude those other components (ZRock), so I was conflicted.  

From my reading, I understand the difference between balanced and single-ended audio signals and their benefits to some extent. Similar to common-mode rejection, I thought.

"In a balanced connection, the two conductors carry the audio signal in the opposite phase - meaning any noise that one conductor picks up cancels out by the noise that the other conductor picks up."

Cables like John suggested help to complete the picture.



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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #73 - 07/31/23 at 21:34:32
 
Quote:
Posted by: Same Old DD      Posted on: Today at 12:41:58

...My question is, when I finally acquire a balanced source, create the proper signal cable, do I then parallel  the two negative speaker outputs and take my speaker signal from the two positive terminals?
Is that how I maintain the balanced signal all the way to the speaker terminals?



As far as I know the answer is yes. The cable breaks out the + and - phases of the balanced signal and then you use the L and R channel of the stereo amp to amplify each separately. When you run the + output of both channels to the speaker they get differenced across the actual driver(s) and since 1 - (-1) = 2 you get twice the voltage gain relative to single ended where you difference the signal to ground, in addition to all the common mode noise rejection that is important in pro audio. Modern DACs add another (potential) advantage. A balanced DAC will actually do a separate conversion for each of the 4 phases of the signal, so when you difference them you also cancel out a bunch of digital artifacts in addition to the noise your cables have accumulated.

I'm not a Decware historian but my understanding is the UFO transformers specifically have a floating ground that improves performance in either single ended or balanced mono, but since you're happy with your current setup I don't see why you wouldn't be happy with balanced. Of course talking to Steve about this would eliminate any uncertainty.

If you are serious about doing the balanced thing I would also consider sending your amps in for an update to UFO status. Another frequent poster (Dominick) did that with with his old SE84 and was very pleased with the results.
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #74 - 07/31/23 at 21:56:57
 
Thanks, CAJ!

That helps a lot. It makes more sense the way you phrased the set up.
In fact, I feel a little thick for not seeing that at first.

I am in the market for a balanced out DAC, so nothing crazy just yet. I have to take small steps, due to budget concerns.

I also feel that turntables are naturally balanced out from the tonearm, but single ended after most phono stages have their way with the signal. I have seen a few balanced phono stages that are out my price range.
I mean I have to use that kind of money for my next car.

I have also considered (ages, now) sending mine back to Decware for updates and just have not found a way to do so yet.

I have loads of gear, but nothing that touches these babies. I know there is better and someday, that will happen, but for now this is the best I have.
Even my highly desired vintage McIntosh can not get there. I only use the McIntosh for my subwoofer amp.
I have been told that five watts up top and a thousand watts down low is like wearing an extreme mullet haircut.
Grin

Not an historian either, but I have read in Steve's words that all ZEN SET amps were desgned with a floating ground from the beginning.

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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #75 - 07/31/23 at 23:03:31
 
Quote:
Posted by: Tony      Posted on: Today at 13:25:20

"In a balanced connection, the two conductors carry the audio signal in the opposite phase - meaning any noise that one conductor picks up cancels out by the noise that the other conductor picks up."


Yep. I went into some detail about this in my follow up with DD but to me the key point is an electrical signal has to be relative to something. For a single ended connection that is ground, and a single ended cable carries the signal and ground. With balanced the signal (the positive phase) is relative to its mirror image (the negative phase) i.e. when the positive is at 1 volt the negative is -1 volt. And a balanced connection has 3 components: + , - and ground. When you difference the + and - phases, either with a ZBit or across the speakers you get twice the voltage gain (because 1 - (-1) = 2) and stuff like common mode noise and (if you have a balanced DAC) digital artifacts cancel out.


Quote:
Cables like John suggested help to complete the picture.


I had forgotten about the Decware cables. Those are single ended, and if they are long enough, everything you need to connect e.g. your ZRock to your amps. I bought short splitters like these:

https://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Female-Audio-Video-Adapter/dp/B09YHDWVG8

and then used a regular RCA cable when I needed a single ended connection to my UFOs. Many name brand cable companies make similar and much nicer splitters.

Steve keeps threatening to make the XLR -> 2x RCA splitters but I've yet to see them

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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #76 - 08/02/23 at 09:22:52
 
Hey CAJ,

Unfortunately I have to agree with you about bi-amping being a PITA in real life. I have tried the tube amp on the uppers/mids, with a SS amp on the woofers. Couldn't get it dialed in. Then I tried two tube amps, one on the uppers/mids, one on the woofers. Couldn't get it dialed in. I even tried using a sub amp on the woofers. Nope. Every time that I've tried it, I end up with a jumper between the binding posts, and going with one higher-powered tube amp for all drivers. If someone else has found success with bi-amping, I'd appreciate a hint on how to set it up.

Randy
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #77 - 08/02/23 at 21:52:09
 
Hi Randy.

What is your present speaker setup?

Palomino and I are both using a bi-amped setup - full-range drivers, matched up with bass drivers.

The main amp drives the full-rangers, and a sub amp (ex. Crown XLS 1002) drives the bass drivers.

RCA's plugged into each input at the subwoofer amp, and the other ends connected to each MAIN AMP positive speaker terminal.

This configuration works well.

Best,

Geno
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #78 - 08/03/23 at 04:19:00
 
We are also successfully bi-amping in a similar manner.

Dual stereo outputs on our CSP3 are feeding two SS amps—a First Watt J2 (which, by the way, sounds very much like a high end SET tube amp) that drives a pair of Voxativ 1.6 drivers on open baffles with no crossover, and a LFD NCSE that drives the eight 15” PAP OB woofers that are cut off at around 100 hz with a single coil per side.  It seems that the CSP3 with dual stereo outputs may be the key player in our system.  It has made the entire rig extremely un-fussy and easy to operate.

I will admit however, that previous bi-amp attempts (prior to getting the CSP3) were quite frustrating.  We even had a First Watt B5 active open baffle crossover for a year or two, but just couldn’t get the system dialed in.  Now, with the CSP3 directing traffic, our bi-amped system takes us to musical paradise on a daily basis.
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Jay’s CD2T-Mk3
Denafrips Pontus II
ZROCK2 25th Mods
CSP3 25th & Custom Mods
PAP Quintets with Voxativ 1.6
First Watt J2 or Cary 300SEI
driving Voxativs—no crossover
LFD NCSE driving 15” Woofers
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Bottlehead
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Re: Vertical bi-amping with two Super Zens
Reply #79 - 08/03/23 at 06:42:59
 
Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I'm not currently running speakers that need to be bi-amped, but I'm intrigued by the Tekton Perfect SET 15, which can be configured for bi-amping. I have several tube amps (a 45 and a couple of 300B) that I could use in combination, but I may have to finally break down and buy a Crown amp for the woofers, if I decide to try the Tektons. It helps to know that others are making it work.

Randy
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