Speaker cables are easy but ICs look to be more complicated with the small wires and soldered connections.

Wow, JC.  That sounds very cool. Bet it sounds fantastic!

Very cool Geno. So when you get the cables (a couple of weeks?) you'll have everything you need to fire up the balanced connections?

Yep, a few weeks on the cables. I think that is all I’m waiting on to make it happen.

Thanks again for bringing this to light, and helping me to understand it all. You too Lin.

Best,

Geno

Don't thank me , thank Steve. He designed and built the amps and put the picture in the manual about how to do this. All I did was post about it on a message board.

I now have my two amps running as fully balanced monoblocks (just a month ago, I did not even know what that is, much less, how to set it up )

I can't believe that this is not talked about more, especially by Steve, so that folks know about this type of connection. The sound quality improved by 20% with this configuration. Truly amazing. And this is with a Super Zen on one side, and a Spud Kit on the other. I ordered a second Zen to replace the Spud, and I know this will make it that much better.

A special thanks to CA and Lin for their guidance with this - I am a music guy, and not technical at all. It took time for me to understand the process.

And thanks to forum member Arpin, for jumping in to volunteer to make the special XLR to Y-RCA cables. He even threw in a complimentary set of speaker wire. He is a proponent of Solid Core wire - both copper and silver - and after I got all of this in the line up, I can see why. I am using the solid core copper for my speaker wire, and it is outstanding! It is as good or better than the 10 awg version of Steve's 8 awg Styx cable that it replaced. And the XLR copper cables he made are much better than the ones I had made by Signal Cable.

He has been trying to persuade me to try the solid silver instead, including solid silver connectors. He says that quality jumps way up. As good as the copper is, I believe him. I'll prolly end up going for it.

This stuff is highly recommended. For those looking for real quality interconnect and speaker cable, at a reasonable cost, get in touch with Arpin. He has it going on.

Thank you Geno for the positive feedback. Super glad that everything is working out. I was hoping that another audiophile would hear what I'm hearing. Geno has a really nice setup (saw and heard some of it on YouTube) and it was nice to swap notes with someone else with a strong ear that isn't family or close friend.

The speaker wire thing was a real mind-boggler for me. I already was able to hear some major differences through my headphones and interconnects with solid silver wire, so I started fantasizing about doing solid silver wire to my speakers. To get the right gauge I figured I'd need 12gauge for my power output. The main problem I had was that I just didn't want to spend $800 plus dollars on silver wire without knowing if it would sound better. And that's just parts cost to me. If I were to buy that gauge from some of the people out there I was looking at around $1600 to $2500. A giant pile of money for wire... But the more I listened to my solid core interconnects and headphone cable, I started to get desperate. I wondered if I could get some decent copper. Turns out the answer was yes. I found out that I could get 10ga copper wire with solid copper bananas and tubing for an all in parts cost of around $120. And I definitely had $120. So I purchased all this stuff on eBay and AliExpress and when I hooked it up, it was like a miracle of sound occurred. Solid core wiring isn't very subtle. And anytime a thinly plated jack, plug, or connector is replaced with solid silver or copper, or just omitted, the conductivity is increased by around a factor of 5 at that junction point. And it is just an obvious difference. After hearing this I decided to have some "fun" and purchased hundreds of feet of 99.9% copper wire of all different gauges and different tubing gauges. In my bedroom I was using silver interconnects, but replaced them with copper interconnects, connectors, jacks, and replaced all of the internal wiring of my bedroom amp and ElacB4 with 16ga copper for output and 22ga copper for input signal. I did one upgrade at a time, even one Elac at a time. It was stunning. Totally inverted all my years of hifi sales experience and listening experiences on ridiculous systems. The goal was to see just how viable this solid core wiring theory was. I replaced all the wiring on my home theater system, interconnects to subs, inside the subs, inside the speakers with all air gapped solid copper. Took me about two months, but after each experiment I wanted to go further and further. My wife was really starting to wonder about my mental health, as was I frankly. I've been making this stuff for gifts and pay for my friends and family. Once they hear it, they immediately put the stranded "stuff" in a box never to be seen again. I like the wiring look quite a bit, especially as I've been using transparentish teflon tubing, so you get that metallic glimmer as you walk by, reminding you that magic things lay in store when you press play or drop the needle.

So what I sent to Geno at no charge was 16ga 99.9% copper wire inside 12ga teflon tubing. Based on his setup of just 2W per channel, I knew that he had quality binding posts that he could do direct connections to the bare copper, which according to the theory is supposed to be best. I use that same cable bare without bananas on my bedroom amp which is around 8W output.

Having been an audiophile since the 90s and having sold wires to customers (of which I always encouraged to buy entry level Audioquest since I wasn't a believer of expensive cables) I realize the horror show that is consumer audiophile wiring. So I have zero plans to be a competitor of AntiCables (which is solid copper but contact encased). Going the route of AntiCables, which I've never heard... the theory says this: that his wires should eliminate the major source of time smearing caused by quantum tunneling across the strands (which induces a phase shift and subsequent smearing and cancelation effects), but that contact encasing he uses will create a sort of dielectric effect exactly where the current is flowing, which is mostly on the surface above 1500Hz. That dielectric effect is causing the current to ever so slightly drag on the surface relative to the interior current flow and would sound like a gradual and gentle time smear rather than the fuzzy time smearing you hear with stranded wire. I like AntiCables' choice of single contact point Eichmann bullet style connectors (that's what I personally use) BUT I use the solid silver only versions. They cost more, but holy cow do they sound amazing. And the goal of solid core wire theory is to avoid any plating of any kind if possible. One thing I haven't tried but intend to is a solid copper bullet style. Someone in Taiwan is making these so I'm wanting to grab a few and test those out on my copper only interconnects.

Sorry, I keep writing these ridiculously long replies about what almost feels like a magical fantasy in my head. But you guys have been really respectful which I appreciate. At this point I'm just looking to help out people on a one-to-one basis and vow to never make a "hifi wire company" because I don't want to grow a company over ten years and then go bankrupt. As a hifi salesperson I was that excessive talker guy. You know the guy. Would rather talk for two hours to another audiophile and not make a sale than talk to a plebeian and make a sale. I managed to do pretty well over the years, but my favorite part was the talking

Okay... I really have to get to work now.

Sent response by email.

There is a lot going on, let me see if I can help.

Bi-amping vs monoblocs: Both involve 2 amps and 2 speakers. Monoblocs refer to using a single amp to power a single speaker vs. a "traditional" stereo amp that powers both. More on this below. Bi-amping typically refers to using one amp (generally low power tube) to power high frequency drivers of both speakers and another (generally high power SS) to power the bass. IMO this sounds good in theory (if you have the right speakers) but is a PITA in real life and I'll have no more to say about it, but of course other might have different opinions. Note also I consider "bi-amping" different than using a dedicated subwoofer amp for a low frequency driver, but I'm always up for a semantic discussion if it is important.

Monoblocs with UFO amps can be done two ways: balanced or single ended, see page 17 of the UFO manual for details on the connections. But note that the diagram is for the balanced connection, explanation of the single ended connection is in the text. Both require a special cable. For single ended you need an RCA -> 2x RCA splitter. Essentially you use both the L and R channels of a stereo amp for either the L or R channel coming out of your ZRock. The splitter goes at the amp end and is very short so you still only need one pair RCA cables from ZRock to amps.

For balanced you need a XLR -> 2x RCA splitter. Balanced is essentially a 4 channel signal (+ and - phases of both L and R channels) so you use the L and R channel of a stereo amp for the + and - phases of either the L or R channel coming out of your balanced DAC. This maintains the balanced signal all the way to the speakers, rather than using e.g the ZBit to convert to single ended before you amplify.

For me, I like the idea of maintaining the balanced signal all the way to the speakers, and I like the idea of monoblocs close to the speakers with very short speaker cable. That is why I choose the balanced monobloc option. But others have different wants and needs.

CaJames explained the difference well. Tony I think your looking for these,:
https://www.decwareproducts.com/product-page/se84-bridging-kit-without-sleeves
HTH
John

CAJ, your eplanation was so exemplary, it opened many questions.
In fact this entire thread has brought one main question to my mind. I hope someone has an answer or at least some guidance.

Now I will start by admitting that I do not own a balanced (indoor, polite) source, yet, and so most of what I would like to have clarified is purely academic at this stage of my "sitting and listening" adventure.

As an old school sound reinforcement guy, I am fully aware of what balanced lines do for a sound system, so there's not much clarification needed there.

I also must admit that I do not own any new Decware amps. Mine are both from the 2004 era, a few serial numbers apart, but very early generation. SE84C variety.
I have LOVED them since I got them and they have served me well, to make the most understated comment possible.
I use them set for mono (with what you have called single ended) for ages, basically since about '06 when I acquired my second.

At one point, I had three and actually I used a traditional bi-amped configuration (no need to explain any of bi-amping, tri-amping, quad-amping, etc. to me either. And YES, you are correct, using a subwoofer amp to enhance low frequencies is NOT bi-amping. Period!) with one amp in stereo driving my full rangers, 8" and the two others each set for mono operation driving two fifteens per side for lows. It sounded great! I used them that way for many years.

However, I gave my newest one to a friend who had suffered a housefire and lost everything. I also helped him a bit by giving him a set of some kludged Valencias I built, SAE pre, turntable and a few more audio gadgets and some media and cabling to get him up and going again in his new home.

So, I now have two old Decware SET amps, I use in mono mode.  Super simple as you reflected before.

My question is concerning the use of the amps in a balanced scenario, where the input to the amps is configured as in the UFO manual you mentioned and the speaker output is taken across the two positive terminals, instead of the two amp channels being run in series as in the way mono operation was originally posed, with the jumper from negative to positive on the amps speaker terminals and the speaker output signal taken from one positive on one channel and one negative on the other channel.

This old way works fine, BTW. I have used it for ages and even at ridiculously low impedances at one time.
Now I just use the two amps in mono driving my two F15 Lii Audio drivers, nothing else.

Sometimes, I have a McIntosh amp driven from the speaker outs through a custom impedance matching cable I made up for "high level" output to line level McIntosh input for powering a subwoofer system.
SO, no real affect there to worry about.

My question is, when I finally acquire a balanced source, create the proper signal cable, do I then parallel the two negative speaker outputs and take my speaker signal from the two positive terminals?
Is that how I maintain the balanced signal all the way to the speaker terminals?

I know in troubleshooting solid state amps in the past which had mono configurations built in and specifically designed to be balanced from front end to speaker end, they all had a similar arrangement, with the mono configuration requiring that the speaker output come from the two Positive speaker outputs.

Is this a characteristic of balanced signal consistency or is this type of connection a part of how the amplifier is designed internally?

I mean I want to go full balanced in the near future, but the last thing I want to do is blow my beautiful classic, old school SE84Cs!

Any help would be appreciated.
I do not yet own a balanced source, but I'm gathering all the information I can, before I have to call Steve and take him away from his important work for my annoying little questions.

Quote:


As far as I know the answer is yes. The cable breaks out the + and - phases of the balanced signal and then you use the L and R channel of the stereo amp to amplify each separately. When you run the + output of both channels to the speaker they get differenced across the actual driver(s) and since 1 - (-1) = 2 you get twice the voltage gain relative to single ended where you difference the signal to ground, in addition to all the common mode noise rejection that is important in pro audio. Modern DACs add another (potential) advantage. A balanced DAC will actually do a separate conversion for each of the 4 phases of the signal, so when you difference them you also cancel out a bunch of digital artifacts in addition to the noise your cables have accumulated.

I'm not a Decware historian but my understanding is the UFO transformers specifically have a floating ground that improves performance in either single ended or balanced mono, but since you're happy with your current setup I don't see why you wouldn't be happy with balanced. Of course talking to Steve about this would eliminate any uncertainty.

If you are serious about doing the balanced thing I would also consider sending your amps in for an update to UFO status. Another frequent poster (Dominick) did that with with his old SE84 and was very pleased with the results.

Quote:


Yep. I went into some detail about this in my follow up with DD but to me the key point is an electrical signal has to be relative to something. For a single ended connection that is ground, and a single ended cable carries the signal and ground. With balanced the signal (the positive phase) is relative to its mirror image (the negative phase) i.e. when the positive is at 1 volt the negative is -1 volt. And a balanced connection has 3 components: + , - and ground. When you difference the + and - phases, either with a ZBit or across the speakers you get twice the voltage gain (because 1 - (-1) = 2) and stuff like common mode noise and (if you have a balanced DAC) digital artifacts cancel out.


Quote:


I had forgotten about the Decware cables. Those are single ended, and if they are long enough, everything you need to connect e.g. your ZRock to your amps. I bought short splitters like these:

https://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Female-Audio-Video-Adapter/dp/B09YHDWVG8

and then used a regular RCA cable when I needed a single ended connection to my UFOs. Many name brand cable companies make similar and much nicer splitters.

Steve keeps threatening to make the XLR -> 2x RCA splitters but I've yet to see them

Hi Randy.

What is your present speaker setup?

Palomino and I are both using a bi-amped setup - full-range drivers, matched up with bass drivers.

The main amp drives the full-rangers, and a sub amp (ex. Crown XLS 1002) drives the bass drivers.

RCA's plugged into each input at the subwoofer amp, and the other ends connected to each MAIN AMP positive speaker terminal.

This configuration works well.

Best,

Geno

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I'm not currently running speakers that need to be bi-amped, but I'm intrigued by the Tekton Perfect SET 15, which can be configured for bi-amping. I have several tube amps (a 45 and a couple of 300B) that I could use in combination, but I may have to finally break down and buy a Crown amp for the woofers, if I decide to try the Tektons. It helps to know that others are making it work.

Randy