Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
04/19/24 at 21:56:10 




Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Digital Streaming and Volume Wars (Read 2301 times)
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 6246
Digital Streaming and Volume Wars
06/21/21 at 04:57:20
 


Coming from the perspective of a mastering engineer, like Dave McNair of McNair Mastering, you perceive music from the non-limited masters of the actual recordings. Your reality is that 16/44 digital sounds fine. And it's a legitimate reality. Where it gets weird is when you take those masters and limit the dynamic range for CD, or even more for streaming to maintain your hierarchy in the volume wars of todays artificial perceptions.

As I have become involved in High Fidelity Sound Labs, a label that releases first generation digital an analogue masters with no limiting...  I really don't hear streaming sound they way I'd like it. This is because the streaming on Tidal and Qobuz and the rest contains more limiting than was on the original CD's and when I compared what we are releasing with what's on Qobuz,  it was 13.8dB.

So of course if I would stream one of my masters, I have to turn up the volume on the preamp or amplifier a whole bunch and then when the playback of that recording was over and it went back to Qobuz or anything else - the volume would blast you out of the room, not to mention sound thick and unrefined.

This is also a problem because of gain structuring - the ratios of the volume settings of the source, preamp and input gain controls on the amplifiers are optimized for a certain level. You can't change the level by 13dB and expect it to still work right.

So for streaming all my digital files both from my hard drives and from Qobuz or Tidal, I have been using Roon's volume leveling feature with surprising success.  It speaks volumes to Roon's technology.  It takes the 16 or 24 bit file or stream and converts it to 64bit floating point to do the volume leveling without any jitter or artifacts.

As you stream music, you can see what the volume leveling feature is actually doing.  For example the song I'm listening to right now has -6.4dB of volume leveling, meaning there was approximately that much limiting.  (limiting is artificially turning up the volume by doing it digitally in the recording)

So as each song comes on, the volume is the same, but those songs with the lower numbers, like our masters, at 0.8dB sound hugely dynamic and transparent, while the higher number songs like -9.2 or even 11.1 sound dull, thick and far less transparent.

Setting up the volume leveling in Roon to -13.8 or so has made a world of difference in the enjoyment of digital music streamed from either the hardrive or internet.

Ironically, the less limited stuff (that would normally be 10dB or more quieter and always sounded petite...) now has the most dynamics and balls and the stuff that was artificially volume enhanced with gross limiting now sounds quieter and duller. HA! Take That!

As is should be.  If this setting was standard on all digital playback gear it would almost instantly reverse the volume wars to where people would be trying to record the quietest, widest dynamic range possible.  It would become a dynamic range war instead of a volume war, and how sweet would that be - and why the FK didn't that happen instead of this?


Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
EdwardT
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 365
Re: Digital Streaming and Volume Wars
Reply #1 - 06/21/21 at 14:01:16
 
“and why the FK didn't that happen instead of this?”

Because so many musicians went to their mix engineer and said “I want my release to be as loud as this one” and then handed over a highly compressed recording. Because limiters and compressors are seen as interchangeable tools when they are vastly different, both in operation and final result. And because dithering down to 16 from 24 just kills the dynamics while the quality reduction from 48k to 44.1k is audible. The difference between a 196k recording and 48k recording is breathtaking yet it’s all reduced to a criminal 44.1k to make it “fit” on a cd.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
HockessinKid
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1090
Re: Digital Streaming and Volume Wars
Reply #2 - 06/21/21 at 14:02:19
 
Great information and guidance for Roon lstening Steve. Per your suggestion I have set my Roon volume at -13.8 via DSP settings. Now for some critical listening.

HK
Back to top
 
 

Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Audio Technica AT-OC9XML cart + Modwright PH 9.0XT phono OR Modwright modded Cambridge CNX V2 > CSP3-25th Ann. preamp > ZMA-25th Ann. amp > PI Audio UberBUSS > Caintuck Audio Lii15 Magnum speakers > Snake River Audio & ZenWave cables
  IP Logged
CAJames
Seasoned Member
****


"I've run every
red light on memory
lane."

Posts: 1652
Re: Digital Streaming and Volume Wars
Reply #3 - 06/21/21 at 18:52:44
 
Quote:
Posted by: Steve Deckert      Posted on: Today at 04:57:20

...Ironically, the less limited stuff (that would normally be 10dB or more quieter and always sounded petite...) now has the most dynamics and balls and the stuff that was artificially volume enhanced with gross limiting now sounds quieter and duller. HA! Take That!...



Really not ironic at all when you think about it. Because in order to crank up the level (volume) you also need to compress the dynamic range. That is my biggest objection to the "volume/loudness wars:" they have taken all the dynamics out of recorded music. If it was just loud I could deal with that, but there is also no quiet, and that is a much bigger problem. At least for me. Also why I'm not interested in streaming.

Back to top
 
 

[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
  IP Logged
CAJames
Seasoned Member
****


"I've run every
red light on memory
lane."

Posts: 1652
Re: Digital Streaming and Volume Wars
Reply #4 - 06/21/21 at 19:01:13
 
Quote:
Posted by: EdwardT      Posted on: Today at 14:01:16

... And because dithering down to 16 from 24 just kills the dynamics while the quality reduction from 48k to 44.1k is audible. The difference between a 196k recording and 48k recording is breathtaking yet it’s all reduced to a criminal 44.1k to make it “fit” on a cd.


In my experience it is much more about the recording process itself than the data rate. I have plenty of 16/44 discs and files that sound remarkable, because they were well recorded, edited and mastered in the first place. Even from the dark ages of early digital in the late 70's and early 80's. Better than some contemporary hirez recordings. Or put another way there is nothing wrong with 16/44 that a good recording engineer (and a good DAC) can't fix.

Back to top
 
 

[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
  IP Logged
EdwardT
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 365
Re: Digital Streaming and Volume Wars
Reply #5 - 06/21/21 at 21:00:30
 
I totally agree that the recording and mixing engineers are the biggest factor but dropping from 144dB to 96dB is still a huge diff in dynamic range.  That said, current loudness wars have reduced dynamic range to paltry digits and really taken the artistry out of performances.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
bokat57
Ex Member



Re: Digital Streaming and Volume Wars
Reply #6 - 06/22/21 at 12:07:30
 
Thanks Steve for the tip.

I never used the Roon volume leveling but I tried it last night. I set it at 14 and I liked the result.  (Qobuz at 96 khz hi rez )

My initial impression was it made for a more relaxed, pleasant presentation.  Easier to listen to, it seemed to soften the sound a little.

I am looking forward to continuing my evaluation.

Thanks
Bob

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print