Hey Safebelayer,

When you said you "100% agreed" with Spyder1's snarky comments, that got me thinking you agreed in general with him. Your more personal explanations I got too, but the theme appeared pretty close... Sorry if I got that wrong. It did get a little weird for me when you both had instructions for how you want me to be different than I am in my writing, presumably since you are not interested, or are unwilling to use your time to try to learn from my stories as I tell them. That is just fine with me if you are not up for reading my posts, but that you are advising me how I should think/post I find a little bizarre.

I am also sorry it is difficult to hold attention and interest enough to read my admittedly long running posts. But as you know, it is hard to get into the deeper stuff that can help create a more enjoyable musical experience without meaningful context. Sure we can pass around quick opinions posing as "facts" but do you ever learn much from them??? And like I alluded to earlier, I do this deeper posting in part because I had to struggle so much in the past, and made loads of mistakes in starting to find my own musical path... a big reason for this being that many posts generally did not go much past the surface back then.

If we really want to get good sound, clearly it takes deepening knowledge and experimentation. Otherwise, without a lot of luck, with fastlane cursory involvement, we will still be buying loads of tubes, cables, wires, front ends.... more or less staying full blown players on the perpetual audio merry go round. Since this is not my thing... other than the occasional tube, wire, or parts needed to take experiments deeper, it often takes months, or even years for me to buy something new. I just keep making what I have better instead, and learn a lot from this which you really can't learn in many other ways. So just hoping to help others figure out their own paths with less mistakes, based in real experience and real theory, and hoping to support more enjoyable musical experiences.

I get it though... in this world of texts, facebook, and hyper anxiety, including hyper time anxiety, thoughtful discussion is more and more often shunned. Being a bit of a throwback myself, I do find this conceptually defeating, that a post that might take 15 minutes or so to read is too long to settle down enough to try to learn from.... especially if it might present real potential for enhancing the music! But that is of course me.

I guess (hope) I will always reject cultured anxieties that tend to keep people hyper-reactive and unable to "take the time" to learn and grow more optimally, and in turn, to do more optimal work with less mistakes. Tricky times for sure, but to me that makes it all the more important to try to solve.

And my final apology, these posts take a lot of energy and thought to put together, and though I will keep your thoughts in mind, I am not inclined to go to more work than I already do on my posts in order to provide you with a summary.


Thanks Joman,

And I am sorry to hear we may be losing you, but I get it.... I guess you noticed you are not seeing a lot of Lon and I these days either... as well as a number of other thoughtful posters who are becoming more absent...

I too am sorry to see this forum that once stood above many others in terms of respect and passing realer information, degenerate with the influences of glib/anger/hatred/fear patterns promoted in culture by so many these days. I have been reluctantly coming around lately if I felt like I could contribute something meaningful, but, fewer and farther between for me. I almost quit a number of times so far over the last year or so, but I learned a lot from this forum and I guess I still feel a little more reciprocation is a good idea with hope it may grow healthier again.

But when getting on the forum is a bummer too much of the time, eventually, I can imagine myself growing totally over it. Over time, as you are aware, many of us have tried to "fight" sort of typical forum degeneration with relative respect and care for one another, while nurturing the forum's support of making audio better! But this has become harder and harder to hang with and I am sorry to hear that you too seem close to giving it up. As we all can see, the vibe of a healthy forum is innately fragile with so many people involved, and without respect for the cause of audio and each other, I guess there is likely little real hope for healthy forum survival.

So take care John and please keep up the deeper music study you are always in!

Will

Quote:


No sweat at all. Its very simple:

1. My original stance was based on 2 internet articles and nothing else. I had no personal experience with cryo tubes, other than one GZ32 in those days. I noticed no differences in my CSP3, then again I couldn't make anything close to a valid comparison because I had no other GZ32 rectifiers. So, in effect I was merely stirring things up and being a smartass. Every once in awhile it's fun to have a bit of a jolt here instead of sleepwalking through the day.

2. Indeed, Steve's input on Wathen Cryotone made enough of an impact that I ordered a few [5AR4, 6SN7, 12AU7 long plate, ECC88's]. The CSP3 received the full complement, the ZR2 got the 12AU7 long plate. I previously had a 1958 Mullard GZ34 fat base, 1944 RCA VT-231 gray glass, and a 1969 Amperex 6922. [No, I didn't bother to take the iterative approach, I want to hear full impact or go home]. Within 30 secs. I noticed a whallop of a difference, made me sit straight up. Everything was smoother with more detail, top to bottom. No sharp edges anywhere. Clarity very noticeably increased. All that in itself helped check off my goal.....Now this is with a Chinese Line Magnetic 34ia integrated [preamp bypassed] that's been temporarily sitting in ever since the Taboo Mk 4 simply had to go....I can't wait for the Torii MK 5 to arrive for some more Wathen influences.

Brad

Scott, Nice post.  

I, too, appreciate the valuable posts from Will and have benefitted from his perspective and experience.  Occasionally, I have printed out his entire post, which aids my focus and understanding - though it impacts my ink supply.
 
Your post was said so well, concise and supportive without shading anyone that I wanted to say thanks.

Thank you, Will for helping some of us on the fringe catch a glimpse of the inner glow.

I don't always take the time to read longish posts, but yours, I do.
I am rewarded if I can grasp even a bit of what you express.
Light a candle and bless those who live by Cliff's Notes, because they often miss the best parts.

Honestly, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

***If I wanted to read someone's "Dissertation," I'll do a GOOGLE search!

Thank you Old DD, I am glad these experiential stories and thoughts can be useful!

Safebelayer, I get your idea, but also guess that is how your forum might be. Probably not mine though, especially when you can skim a long post to see if there are things you are interested in, or not read it at all. But I get what you were trying to convey.

And especially for Spyder, it sounds like I am somehow abusing you by writing as clearly and informationally as I can... And I don't get it... Do you feel like my making a more inclusive and complete post is forcing you to take maybe a quarter hour of your time to read it? As it has been said, if you don't want to read a long post, or if you do, isn't that up to you? Couldn't it just be letters on a virtual page if you don't want to devote your time to see if there are some useful ideas for you?

For me it is good to write. In the context of a writing thought process, stuff often comes out of mind that I had not fully explored or integrated. So I learn while writing, while hoping whatever discoveries I find might help others find their own discoveries.

Also for me, a more complete and natural musical experience is "medicinal" and "healing." And pretty much all of us old audio heads who have dug into putting together extra good system/rooms know, it can take decades of effort to find musical beauty that is realer, more fulfilling, and more entrancing across recordings.... So I hope we can help each other to get there easier. The basis of this forum to me.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are disputing about what I said.

safebelayer,

Show some respect. Will is a talented and giving person, imparting wisdom on those that are willing to receive. If you are not interested then don't take part.
Too many immature people joining and staining this forum.

JD

Some people are in a hurry and some are not. And sometimes the same person is in a hurry and other times not. There is no right or wrong here.

It is possible to put together a great system in a short span of time and with limited funds. I can certainly speak to the limited funds part (as I buy most of my components used). I enjoyed my early system immensely. However, as I have learned more and more over the past decade, my system has gotten better and better. Hobbies do take time and that is part of the fun.

We don't have to agree with everything, but decorum and kindness are always welcome.

As a side note, if one is looking for a non-tracking browser and search engine combo, I recommend Brave and Duck Duck Go. Cheers - Scott

Hey Scott,

What did you have before the Denafrips Ares? How do you like it compared to vinyl playback?

Safebelayer,

Seems like our incompatibility in communication abilities and preferences are not just in how we put words together, but perhaps also in what the words mean to us. And especially within the very specific context of this forum.... potentially very high quality audio, where the same word can give a little different impressions than in other contexts. Relative to very high quality audio, words that express exceptionally real, complete and entrancing feeling musical experiences, to me, have a flavor that can fit musical experiences well, and mean a lot. Or they can be over-used in contexts that are more superficial seeming, and have little meaning.

So I guess I am not talking about how "fulfilling" a system can be coming from little or no historical reference to real sound in great music rooms where most every aspect of the music is present... like great performances in great sounding chapels and churches.

I am also not talking about very high end systems that can cost 100k or more and sound pretty bad in a bad room/setup.

That said, I have heard of people putting together very resolving and real systems (based on deeper audiophile standards) pretty quickly, but usually with very well thought out gear (that is often costly), and a room very well designed for bringing out that particular system (also often pretty costly).... And these choices made and implemented by people who have enough experience (decades usually) to pull this off. And even then, to get entrancing, complete, balanced and real sounding music across recordings is a notable rarity in my experience...

Then there are the many more of us who go along as we can, trying to build up an exceptional system and room over time, in part as a means to get more from less cost, and hopefully making it better and more complete as we go. My path for sure. And yes, my first steps into Decware's inner space and smooth detail were revelatory, but my system and room now are way beyond that in lots of important ways, and especially in terms of most things I put on working very musically and feeling complex and complete.

Look at Steve's development threads.... on my... so verbose.... and oh my, if he can keep making stuff that sounds that much better to him, why do that if there is not more to find, more to make the musical experience more fulfilling, more real, more captivating. I find we humans tend to stop trying if we think we "are there." And if we are still trying in higher end audio, it is probably still not complete, not fulfilling, not entrancing enough for us, so we seek more. And of course, in a broad sense, what that means to a person can vary, but in the world that we are in in this forum... hopefully less so.

So in my world of language and audio, and that of my most serious audio buddys, I hold to this line as real:

"And pretty much all of us old audio heads who have dug into putting together extra good system/rooms know, it can take decades of effort to find musical beauty that is realer, more fulfilling, and more entrancing across recordings...."

I have always been able to get some recordings to sound good once I got into pretty nice stuff in the 80s, but to get system/room resolution, space, speed, with all the subtle balances, to be as good or better than music in really good rooms, and entrancing across lots of recording styles... still working on that... but getting there.

WILL,

TLDR.  

If you're going to write to someone specifically, who has expressed that brevity is appreciated, how does it make sense to do otherwise?

TLDR eh? Just ignore his posts then if they are too long to read. Will's posts are one of the reasons I come to this forum.

Though I don't come as often as I used to.  TATS. (Too argumentative/aggressive to stay).

Okay, to bring this around to cryogenic treatments again, I'm using the Cryotone 6SN7 and have managed to "manage" the brighter than neutral (by my standard) sound by changing others in the tube complements and by using the Cryotone 6P15 tubes Steve supplied them. The latter have finally opened up and they are a bit richer than the "stock" which helps to alleviate the 6SN7 tone. And a pair of Westinghouse 0B3 are giving them just the right support as well. I also added an Audio Magic M-1 fuse in my regenerator which all the cool kids over at the PS Audio forum are trying out and have to say that is the best (and most expensive) fuse I've ever used and the nice icing in the system cake here.

So. .. as this all seasons in and settles in I'm getting the benefits of the Cryotone tubes and a tone signature that is almost just right. When I pop in my other favorites I get a bit better tonal balances, but a bit less clarity and dynamics, so there's always trade offs.

Next week or possibly this weekend. . . I'm going to swap out the Tesla regulation tube 0A2 variant I am using for the input tubes with a pair of RCA 0B2. I haven't messed with these input tube regulation tubes for over a year, maybe near two. It's time, and that may be the "ticket." One never knows, do one?

I have been working on my system for going on three decades. . . and it gets incrementally better as Will notes. And . . . I think the Sarah 300B when it arrives moons from now (this week I am going to write a check to pay off my house so that will help it be financially possible in the future) there will be new sonic mountains to climb.

Will, just keep on sharing your insights, they are invaluable to many of us here on the forum. I have benefited immensely from your deep dives and years of experience.

FWIW, I am enjoying a few of the Cryotone tubes in my 25th Anniversary modified CSP3. Should be receiving a pair of OA3 regulator tubes to try out in the Zen Mystery Amp next week.

Enjoy the ride folks and insights of others.

HK

Hey Will,

Though I’ve been posting here for only a couple of years, I’ve been soaking in your thoughts and ideas for many years.  Guys like you have motivated me to continue moving my system forward a little bit here and little bit bit there.  I’m even thinking about popping the hood on my CSP3 and doing some tinkering……..we’ll see.

Anyway, thanks for all of your outstanding posts over the years.  

I was seriously considering petitioning Steve on the possibility of adding a new section on this forum, “The Crying Room”, where feelings reign supreme and are the determinant of outcomes.

Unfortunately not a good idea though.

I find thin skin beyond exceedingly annoying and actually a threat to national security, as it is what it is.

Brad

Quote:


In that direction, an alternative most pertinant to the situation obtaining on the forums in the last year or so would be to have a "Romper Room for young teens with behavioral issues - who are in fact just ill mannered grumpy men."

Those chafing under the tyranny of adult civility and social decorum, those who are so directly 'in touch with their inner 13 yr. old brat,' would have a place to go where they can carp and whine and shoot spitballs and throw chairs to their puerile heart's content, with out suffering the annoyance of having others in the audience telling them to sit down and be quiet, because the rest of them are trying to pay attention and learn something.

Hey Joseph,

Sorry, Ive only tested the 5AR4 in my CSP3. I had liked the Mullard GZ34 fat base for its liquidity particularly in the midrange, so it was reasonable to follow up with the Cryotone 5AR4. I did purchase a pair of Cryotone 5U4G’s, but I have those set aside for the arrival of the Torii.

Thanks for asking, again I’m sorry I can’t answer this one.

to those that choose to "argue" about opinion's - it's an OPINION and everyone is entitled to their own!  If you don't agree - OK, but that doesn't make either party right or wrong - it's an "opinion".

the other point some folks on this forum seem to miss from time-to-time, is that there are no absolutes when it comes to "hearing" (or most things for that matter).  
Hearing is a "perception".  And furthermore, it is an individual perception.  Everyone hears a little bit different and has different bias', priorities, things they consider important, specific things they listen for, etc.  This alone insures that we are not all going to hear the same thing.  You can not tell somebody that they do not hear something, if they think they do.  If they think they hear it - they do.  You cannot tell them they don't - it's a perception.  And there are just as many reasons why double-blind testing is not 100% reliable as there are reasons for justifying it.  It's kind of like an "eye witness".  History, statistics and facts have shown time after time, that eye witnesses are very unreliable.

And as for cryo treatment... it is a real science.  It has been used for years (and still is) to treat gears and other metal components in internal combustion engines, transmissions, axles, etc. as well as countless other components.  The before and after results of cryo treatment can be documented under a microscope.  Vacuum tubes for sure have metal components in them, along with glass and various materials for the base.  I'm sure they are subject to the same "changes" when they are cryogenically treated.  Does it make them sound different?  Only the individual listening can answer that question.

I suspect, that a lot of the mistrust and bad rap given to tube cryo treatment, is due to outright lies about actually having cryo'd the tubes and/or the cryo treatment was not done properly.

You can't just dip a component in a vat of liquid nitrogen for a few seconds, pull it out and say it was "cryogenically treated".  The component being treated has to be brought down in stages in a controlled manner; x amount of time at x temp, then lowered another x amount and held at that temp for a certain period of time until you reach the desired negative temp.  Same thing applies when the component is being brought back up to room temperature - it must be done in a controlled fashion over some period of time.  And the process is different for each component being treated - if it is to be done right and produce the desired alteration to the metal involved.

In the case of vacuum tubes, to be ideal, there is likely a different process for each tube type, i.e. 6922, 12AX7, EL34, KIT66, etc. because each has different amounts of various metals.  Developing the individual process for each tube type and the actual process of cryo treating takes time and time = $$.

I bought a ton of tubes from Ron at Cryoset before he passed on.  I have only had 1 tube, purchased from Cryoset go bad prematurely.  One time  I tried to engage Ron in the discussion about cryo treatment on tube sonics.  Ron was too smart to fall into that trap!  He did tell me one time, that he believed cryo treatment weeded out bad tubes that might have bad or weak joints.  As for what I would hear... well I would have to decide that for myself.  Ron was a smart man!

So take a chill pill dudes and dudettes.  If somebody starts a thread with "everybody who fell for that...... is an idiot".  They're obviously looking for a fight/argument.  It's so easy to be argumentative and combative in virtual space - much tougher to do when eye-to-eye and toe-to-toe.  We should all honor that person by politely ignoring their post and not responding at all - they'll get the message eventually...

Cryo treatment.

It's a process that affects the structure of metal and affects the other non metallic parts. I think we all agree with that, yes? Steve directed us to a study that explains the process. Btw, saying something is a science doesn't make it fact, just that something is being observed and conclusions drawn (generally, as a best guess). Hopefully we can all agree on that too.

What certainly is not fact is whether it improves anything in the vacuum tube arena. This is the science. We are individually experiencing/observing the sound and durability. It's perception. To that end, this thread and others, are useful to this listener to the extent whatever is stated resonates with me. Thank you to each person who has contributed their experience. Unlike our venerable leader, no one claimed expertise, just personal experience. Great stuff.

Maddog, I believe this thread did not start with "whoever fell for the cryo craze is an idiot." It started with just a question.

Has anyone directly compared the cryotone 6922 to an amperex 7308 or equivalent Mullard? What was your experience with sound differences? What type of sound presentation do you want?

Thanks

Awesome! I look forward to reading about your observations. Have you ever tried the nos SED 5u4c? I find it gives clarity and richness.

Thanks