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Interesting Article (Read 4855 times)
RJR
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Interesting Article
05/28/21 at 20:23:44
 
Here is an interesting article, https://www.soundstagesolo.com/index.php/features/286-how-audio-writers-are-kill...

Here is an excerpt, "Outdated technologies: It’s fashionable in high-end audio to tout the superiority of technologies that debuted even before rock ’n’ roll was invented: single-ended triode tube amplifiers with rated power output of around 10W, often paired with super-efficient speakers that employ full-range drivers with whizzer cones, or strange-looking, hand-made horn drivers. These claims of superiority are not backed by controlled listening tests, only by the emotionally appealing yet utterly ignorant claim that “simpler is better.”

If audio writers who praise these products asked mainstream speaker designers why they don’t make super-efficient speakers, they’d learn that with efficiency comes compromises—in frequency-response linearity, dispersion, distortion, and power handling. Few highly efficient speakers achieve a respectably flat frequency response and broad dispersion. And many of the primitive tube amps that are typically used to drive them have very high output impedance, which will interact with a speaker’s impedance to change the sound in ways the speaker’s designer didn’t anticipate and likely wouldn’t condone."

I am now wondering if I should doubt my system??  Just kidding.  If possible, I look for good recordings, regardless, I just listen to music first, then the equipment.

Take care.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Interesting Article
Reply #1 - 05/30/21 at 01:59:06
 

Quote:
If audio writers who praise these products asked mainstream speaker designers why they don’t make super-efficient speakers, they’d learn that with efficiency comes compromises—in frequency-response linearity, dispersion, distortion, and power handling. Few highly efficient speakers achieve a respectably flat frequency response and broad dispersion. And many of the primitive tube amps that are typically used to drive them have very high output impedance, which will interact with a speaker’s impedance to change the sound in ways the speaker’s designer didn’t anticipate and likely wouldn’t condone."


No, they would learn that with efficiency comes challenges, of which no math guy is up for so long as there are amplifiers with 100's of watts.  Always take the easy way out and show the world how smart you are with complicated crossovers while ignoring the real issues, which are the cabinet and driver choices.

Haha, efficiency has an effect on dispersion... that's a good one.

Tube amps can have higher output impedance because efficient drivers are low compliance, low mass and have linear motors.  

Actually tube amplifiers have output transformers which block back EMF from the loudspeaker keeping the response free of frequency response distortions.  Try measuring a solid state amplifier into a loudspeaker instead of a resistor and see how flat it stays as you increase the power...

These people have no problem tanking the efficiency of a speaker by as much as 10dB to try and force it to have a response it doesn't want to have.

Think of it this way:  Pretend the speaker was a car.  It was efficient cruising down the road with 35 hp.  Then pretend they added lots of breaking and lots of weight so now it takes 350 hp just to go down the road.  That means if you want to accelerate you better have at least 700 hp.





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bokat57
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Re: Interesting Article
Reply #2 - 05/30/21 at 02:44:10
 
You Tell 'em Steve

Tell them where the bear shit's in the buckwheat !

Thanks  
Bob
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JBzen
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Re: Interesting Article
Reply #3 - 05/30/21 at 10:48:02
 
Quote:
These claims of superiority are not backed by controlled listening tests, only by the emotionally appealing yet utterly ignorant claim that “simpler is better.”


A bunch of crap above. I observed a lot of 'controlled' listening tests and always was amazed at what subjects picked as the better 'sound' or more like picked a narrow segment of sound that they liked. Therefore the statement above should be more inline with truth if rewritten as:

These claims of superiority are not backed by controlled listening tests only by the emotionally appealing connection with the music; citing “simpler is better.”


John
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EdwardT
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Re: Interesting Article
Reply #4 - 05/30/21 at 14:55:38
 
Too many critics listen with their eyes on spec sheets rather than listening in real world environments with their ears.
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CAJames
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Re: Interesting Article
Reply #5 - 05/30/21 at 15:40:20
 
I'm a "math guy" by training and this is what I say: no one over bought a Stradivarius or a Rembrandt or a Chateau Margaux based on measurements, specs or "math" and I'm not going to buy audio gear based on any of that either.
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RFBurns
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Re: Interesting Article
Reply #6 - 06/15/21 at 21:57:24
 
A dear friend of my (RIP Roy) was truly "a math guy" and a speaker designer...His feelings were always simple is better in crossovers and cabinets.. If you can perfect those, then the music will come alive. He was right...

My experience (for what it's worth) has always been that the reviewers/"listeners"/etc fall into a couple of categories...1.  "if the specs look good (e.g. 0.00000001% THD) then it's perfect, and everyone needs to buy it immediately", 2 "This system was reviewed by XYZ magazine/reviewer and 'they' stated it was the best they've ever heard, thusly I got it..." and 3. "I want my music to truly move me emotionally and physically...and whatever system makes me do that that is 'the' system for me".

I fear that most of the "audiophile" community (again, from my humble experience) falls into categories 1 & 2, and most of them don't even know what category 3 truly means... I do know the folks on this forum get category 3, that's why we have systems that barely make 5W of power and have speakers that are 90+ db efficient...It's a "human" connection to the musical medium that makes us appreciate the Music....afterall we listen with our ears to music, we don't listen with our ears to specifications and measurements...

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maddog07
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Re: Interesting Article
Reply #7 - 07/21/21 at 17:55:43
 
lets not forget that hearing is a "perception", and an individual perception at that.  And though all our hearing "mechanisms" are similar, none of us hear exactly the same.  The shape of each of our ear pinna's are different and impacts "how we hear" for one thing.  And we all have different biases and preferences.  

I have a group of audio friends that I've had for decades.  We frequently get together just to listen to music and audition new equipment, etc.  Over the years of listening to music and various gear with this group, we have found that all of us, nearly always can "identify" what sounds different between one component and another.  The interesting thing is that we Never ALL agree on which is better.  This is where the differences in each individuals hearing, perception of the sound, preferences and biases comes into play.  Think of it this way; if a person "likes the sound" of a particular system, component, combination of components, etc.  Can you tell them that they don't?  I think not.  If you think the sound you hear is good and you like it - nobody can tell you that it isn't good and that you can't like it.  
Measurements are secondary to listening.  Measurements only tell us if the component is doing something electrically that it shouldn't, or might cause premature failure, etc.  I for one am convinced that all the measurements have not yet been invented, that can objectively determine if a given person will like the components sound, let alone that everybody will like the sound of the given component.  

And "age" has a huge impact on what a person "can" hear as well.  Everyone knows that as humans age, hearing diminishes.  Environment over time, has a huge impact on this and even genetics plays a role.  I have never worked in a noisy environment like a factory, or been around persistent loud noise in general.  I've been to a few loud concerts in my younger days, but not a lot.  However, at age 61, I recently had my hearing tested, and above 8khz, my hearing starts going south at a pretty good rate.  So that means, that a system with some objectively measured  "excess" energy in the upper couple octaves is likely to subjectively sound "better" to "me".  But likely to sound "bright" to a younger person, or a person with better upper frequency hearing.
So lighten up everybody - if it sounds good to you - it is good!  It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks - or hears.
;D
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Stefan
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Re: Interesting Article
Reply #8 - 07/22/21 at 02:12:24
 
I like the variety. I love all 3 different systems that I have, IRS Beta with 600W amps, Tannoy Cheviot's with 2.5W Triod25thAnn, ERRx with 25W Torii IV. They all sound different (and of course the different rooms add to that) and some music I prefer on one system vs another, but they all can make me enjoy listening to music. I even sometimes like to listen to headphones  :)
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SteveB
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Re: Interesting Article
Reply #9 - 07/22/21 at 02:34:11
 
I can see myself listening to the spec sheets. They would make a delicate rustling noise in the breeze. I can also imagine a wonderful crackling sound as they burned.....
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metropolis7
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Re: Interesting Article
Reply #10 - 07/22/21 at 15:50:53
 

I think the problem stems from the idea of there being "The Absolute Sound", and the logic that follows that idea.
The "Absolute Sound" is a platonic ideal that can't be realized in the real world.
I think it's an enticing idea for a lot of people, like a recipe to rely on.
For myself, when I re-examined my priorities and realized I just want a system that sounds good to me and gets me excited to listen to more music  (and looks nice Smiley, everything became very clear.
The Decware ZP3 was the pill. Like, yes! That's the sound I want more of, grain free, lively, dynamic, and present.
It's nice to be done with pissing contests and upgrading. What's the point? That can't be what life's about!
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Re: Interesting Article
Reply #11 - 07/23/21 at 02:10:30
 
If your foot is tapping, you have some stupid A grin on your face and you are thinking about four or five songs down the road that you want to listen to, you bought the correct gear. Thank you Steve, Team Decware, Louis @ Omega and all the magical music I listen to daily. Bag the reviewer, Bag the adverts, your body and soul will tell you when you did right. I like reading the mags, still subscribe (miss you Art Dudley),  but NO purchase decision is based on a magazine review. Trust your ears, feet and soul. They will not steer you wrong. Happy listening, Chris.
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Re: Interesting Article
Reply #12 - 07/23/21 at 12:57:46
 
Chris, all you said and when the music takes over your consciousness - not the gear - your search has ended.

John
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Coyote
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Re: Interesting Article
Reply #13 - 08/02/21 at 20:05:21
 
The premises of the author, on some of what high-end audio is, appear incorrect to me and therefore so are his conclusions.

But interesting read!

As for reading the spec sheets, I think many "audio writers" confuse quality in both design and components, with audio quality. The spec sheets only gives you the first two.

Maybe perhaps if someone is very astute and can "imagine" how the spec of one component would interact with the spec of all other components in the system at all different frequencies and at all different db and in different situations by reading a few spec sheets, he/she might get an idea of the audio that will result from the components. But I am certainly not at that level and I do not think many are.
I am thinking here of Beethoven being able to "hear" and compose the 9th symphony in his head while being deaf, how many Beethoven do you know?

But all this is also leading us astray since what I hear and what you hear are not the same thing and what I like and what you like are not the same thing.

The point of listening/reproducing music is to be pleased by it, right? Right.

An analogy (for me) in playing with HiFi audio gear is sailboat racing, but it could be applied to other situations.
When building a team I always suggested do not worry about speed. Speed will be the result, concentrate on technique, on working with each other, on feeling how the boat is sailing. Doing maneuvers is like a dance not a fight, be a ballerina not a street tug.

It always worked, while others were pushing harder and harder and started breaking gears, we would get better and better and the boat faster and faster.

The first Watt, Hi efficiency speakers, components that enhance each others... Be more nimble, work with each other, not more forceful.

So that is the quest, putting together something that is more satisfying, to me.

WoW, my first "philosophical" post here! Smiley

Cheers All,

a.




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Doorman
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Re: Interesting Article
Reply #14 - 08/03/21 at 00:00:56
 
Yup, and doesn't it say somewhere that bumblebees can't possibly fly ?
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