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Tube selection for se84ufo (Read 4329 times)
dalza1
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Tube selection for se84ufo
04/17/21 at 20:37:23
 
Hello everyone!

A little background before I get to my questions.

I owned a SE84cex from 2005-2007. I absolutely loved it, but sold it due to changes in my living arrangements. I have been waiting 13 years to own a Decware amp again. I just got notification that my new se84ufo will be shipping next week, so I don’t have much longer to wait!

My modest system is comprised of:
- Homemade Caintuck Audio Lii 15 open baffle loudspeakers (thank you again Randy! … you’re help was invaluable.)
- A Sony HAPZ1ES audio player
- Decware se84ufo
- My cables are all homemade using Duelund DCA16GA tinned-copper wire

I have read through the threads on tube complements numerous times, but still can’t figure out what direction to go in; there is just too much information and too many options for me to wrap my head around.

When I owned the SE84cex, the tube combination I preferred was the following:
Input tubes: Jan 6922
Output tubes: JJ Electronic EL84
Rectifier tube: RCA 5Y3GT

(I also tried the JAN Cetron "Potato Masher" 5R4WGB and the Jan Philips 5Y3WGTA, but liked them less than the RCA 5Y3GT)

What I remember liking about this combination was its lush yet fast sound. It threw a fantastic soundstage and had a gorgeous midrange. I found this combination exciting, but never fatiguing. Detail, to my unexperienced ear, was exceptional. This is the sound I am looking for today.

I am looking to recreate this same experience today with my new amp, but as the se84ufo is considerably different than the se84cex I had many years ago, I don’t know if the tubes I used 13 years ago will give me the same results. Which is why I’ve come to you all for guidance and recommendations.

For the time being, I am going to stick with the stock input and output tubes (although I might reorder the same set of input/output tubes I had many years ago just to do some experimenting). Today I am interested in finding a good NOS rectifier tube.

So, my question is, for the type of sound I described above, what rectifier tube would you recommend? My budget is about $125 max.

My second question (request) is, would it be possible to give me a link to where I can buy the tube you recommend? I know this is asking a lot, but there are so many similar tubes with similar names that it gets confusing … not to mention the differences in the same tube and manufacturer but with slightly different manufacturing dates!

Any input/recommendations would be greatly appreciated Smiley
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piezoman
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Re: Tube selection for se84ufo
Reply #1 - 04/17/21 at 22:38:52
 
Fast, liquid, detailed....Mullard GZ34 fat base, 1959 production and earlier.
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will
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Re: Tube selection for se84ufo
Reply #2 - 04/18/21 at 01:00:54
 
Hello dalza1.

Exciting times ahead!

Your system and room likely different, and the amp you are getting having evolved, I would think sorting through burnin and learning your new sonic baseline with tubes Steve sends might be wise.

Since in the past you preferred a RCA 5Y3GT, warm yet detailed, but relatively less powerful and softer than many rectifier types, so less bold/dynamic   ....and since you liked it over a Jan 5Y3WGTA (maybe Sylvania?), which are electronically similar to the RCA, but more rugged, so probably more rigid, clearer, extended sounding.... cooler and more forward feeling.....   And since you did not prefer the 5R4WGB..... the 5R4 type more powerful in presentation than 5Y3s, having good detail complexity and space, but more intense, fast, articulate, spacious, and the W (potato masher) base making it tend to a little smoother and warmer for the 5R4G type, it is still a 5R4...

Based on these assumptions, I think it is hard to guess if you would like Mullard GZ34s, even the earlier ones, or anything else in particular without a frame of reference from using your new amp in your room. They are one of the faster, more resolving, open and punchy rectifiers in general, having their own seductively fine detailed and warmish sound, but probably more like a more refined and dynamic variation on the 5R4WGB sound .... and with more dynamic power, notably bigger and more expressive of everything they do than 5Y3s.

I don't know what Steve is shipping with the Zens now, but I think I recall recently his shifting to Russian 5U4G ST types (5C3S), and as I recall, they have a more powerful feel than the RCA 5Y3, but somewhat similar overall detail complexity, space and warmth within that. You might really like it, or whatever else Steve ships. And of course he is shipping different inputs now too....so overall a different amp and different tubes than you had.

I use a lot of qualifiers above for the reasons you mention....types, company, vintage creating a lot of variability, but these are overall impressions I recall from using these types. I guess I am just imagining it might be good to get a feel for the amp with the nice tubes Steve will ship, giving you a baseline to work from if you feel inclined to refine to tastes???
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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dalza1
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Re: Tube selection for se84ufo
Reply #3 - 04/18/21 at 10:00:55
 
Thank you for your recommendation piezoman ... the Mullard GZ34 fat base was on my list, but it sells for around $250 from what I've seen, which is considerably over my budget today, but something I will keep in mind for the future ...

Thank you Will for your thoughtful reply. I agree with you, and my plan is to get a feel for how the se84ufo sounds, in my room, with the "factory" tube complement. Your description of the different tubes, and tube families I've tried, is very helpful. Perhaps my preference is more for the warmer 5Y3 sound over the more spacious/airy 5R4. I know it's impossible to say before actually listening to them all in my system, but there are time and budget constraints to take into consideration. This is what makes choosing tubes so complicated!
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tomy2
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Re: Tube selection for se84ufo
Reply #4 - 04/18/21 at 14:12:27
 
I don’t have enough posts to provide a link but if you search Dubstep girls  5AR4/5R4/5U4G Rectifier Review/Comparison on Head-fi there is quite a few tubes they review that can be helpful.
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dalza1
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Re: Tube selection for se84ufo
Reply #5 - 04/18/21 at 14:20:45
 
Thank you Tomy2. Yes, I am familiar with and have read dubstepgirl's review of rectifier tubes; it is an excellent resource. If memory serves me, she used a Woo Audio amp to evaluate these tubes. Although it is a great guide, I'm hoping to get people's experience with the se84ufo paired with Lii 15 Caintuck Audio style baffles.
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tomy2
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Re: Tube selection for se84ufo
Reply #6 - 04/18/21 at 15:39:43
 
I hear ya. Congrats on waiting for the zen triode. I’m kicking myself for not getting on the list last year when the wait wasn’t nearly as long. Looking forward to any tube rolling thoughts you may have.
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will
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Re: Tube selection for se84ufo
Reply #7 - 04/18/21 at 17:58:40
 
I figure the tube preferences might be similar as years ago, or pretty different. Everything effecting everything, including the sound of the current iteration of the SE84 amp, using different wires, caps, transformers, etc, likely this amp will be similar but different. Perhaps relative to this, 5Y3GTs used to get a lot more play on this forum, but I hear about them more rarely now... guessing in part because amps, speakers, DACs, cable preferences, etc, tend to evolve.

So I am thinking that if we get a sense of what we want, based on the characters of the tubes we have — to punch the amp/system/room up, tone it down, make it warmer or tighter..... more or less spacious....more or less bass weight, etc, going from a known tube set, it gets easier to figure out other tubes that might help go in the direction we want to go. Though all amps and systems make a rectifier sound differently, I find each rectifier has sonic characteristics that influence any system/room baseline...not the same, but similarly when comparing one tube's tendencies to another.

And one system, say like you are putting together.... Caintuck Lii Baffles and a current SE84UFO, compared to another system with exactly the same speakers and amp, will likely sound pretty different. All the variables of different rooms influencing the system/room frequency balance, basically EQing the system; impedance setting choices on the amp; some sources being more or less resolving or more or less warm; wires and cables from ICs, to speakers, to power cables all influencing the whole and therefore rectifier sound; system power; vibrations management.........any one of these can be pretty powerfully influential right? And all together.....!@#$%^&

As an example, I tried NOS WE 16 gauge wires your Duelunds were modeled after, and in my system and room I was amazed at how lean the bass became, changing the same system to a very different system. Just by going from a resolving bigger gauge speaker cable to good sounding, but light gauge WE speaker wires, the whole balance changed. Had I stayed with those wires, my choices in tubes would have been pretty different.

I liked things about the WE mids textures and complexity though, so I beefed them up adding gauge with a conglomerate of wires that complimented each other, creating sonic characteristics I was seeking. One objective was to musically find a way to carry the WE sound qualities, while making them better sounding to me, not with just more bass, but more resolution in general also. And part of this was coming up with a just-so gauge that was ideal for my system and room frequency balance. I ended up using the WE wire, some soft annealed pure silver in oversized teflon, and some soft annealed pure copper in oversized teflon, with a just-so twist patterns (by sound). Can't recall exactly, but I think I ended up with about 12 gauge.

Had I stayed with the 16 gauge wires, I might  have liked late 50s fat base GZ34 over my preferred GZ32s at the time. But with my system/room balance, using "more normal sized" cables that I thought had more complete complexity and balance, the GZ34s were just overstated. And though I always like nice 5Y3GTs on first impressions, in my setup, they too always end up a little lean, a little dynamically flat. So here, I need something in between. And maybe similarly to you, in my setup I have not preferred the ruggedized Sylvania rectifiers because they are a little "too good," a little rigid and overly clarified for me. Yet Bendix ruggedized 5Y3 variants sound really good here, quite clarified across the spectrum, but richer, with more textures, more complete decays, more complexity.....  Yet I can't keep them in here, 5Y3s just ending up too low powered for my setup and tastes. But these personal preferences, based on my system, do not influence how I try to help people find good tubes for their system/room. Any of these could be potentially right for another system depending on the baseline tubes and sonic changes wanted.

So, to me, when I hear people say tubes don't convey well across systems, I don't think it is as much the tube qualities and characteristics, but more system/room differences. Also the different ways we describe and interpret descriptions of others obviously varies. Alternately, it seems easy to make descriptions with the underlying feeling that if we like a tube a lot, others will....which can be part true, some tubes being exceptional for many people. But personal interpretations about a given tube are too often overly influenced by the assumption that if it works great "for me," it is a brilliant tube in every system....not taking into account that all systems are different in tone, resolution, room modes, bright or dark, some frequencies exaggerated by room, and others cancelled, etc, etc.

So though it is all pretty tricky, I feel like going from a baseline, and describing what we want different is a good start. Then, along with looking at overall popularity of a tube, by looking at the comparative differences in tubes toward our sonic goals, chances of getting tubes we will like might be better.

My take anyway.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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dalza1
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Posts: 30
Re: Tube selection for se84ufo
Reply #8 - 04/18/21 at 20:54:25
 
I agree there are many factors which can impact the sound of a system, and I am going to have to wait and hear what the new amp sounds like in my listening room and see how I like the stock tubes before making decisions about rolling tubes.

That being said, from my experience many years ago with the se84cex, the rectifier tube has a strong impact on the sound of the amplifier.

I don't like an overly aggressive sound or sound with too much high frequency energy. I do love detail, soundstage, speed and lushness. I am hoping to find a good NOS rectifier that, when paired with the Caintuck Audio Lii 15 inspired speakers I have, will give me this type of sound.

I'm sure there are other members of this forum who use this same combination. Your thoughts would be welcome Smiley
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dalza1
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Re: Tube selection for se84ufo
Reply #9 - 04/20/21 at 20:29:57
 
Hi Tomy2,

It might be a while before I have any feedback on tube rolling ... I had to wait about 6 months for my amp ... my advice is just order it and forget about it ... you'll have a nice surprise a few months down the road ...
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