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Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware (Read 11355 times)
Sai
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Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
03/18/21 at 05:55:06
 
Hi! I’m new to the Decware scene. From my research, it sure looks like I’ve landed at the right place to buy my first ever tube power amp. My current setup is the following:
Nottingham Analogue Space 294 TT, AllNic H-1202 tube phono stage, Rogue Audio RP-7 Pre, First Watt J-2, Zu Soul Supreme (coming soon, currently own the Zu Omen DWs but with the Druid MK IV drivers). Also own an Aurender N100H and a Denafrips Ares II DAC.

Current listening room is 14x12 with 10’ ceiling. But want this system to eventually work in a larger 17x15 or so media room in the future.

I like to listen to a varied type of music. From Rock, Pop, Electronic, to Cou try, and folk.

I placed an order for Zen Torii MK IV with KT66 tubes and the Anniversary mod. My question though is would a pair of Super Zen Triode Anniversary Edition amps work well and be loud enough, with dynamics. Also, any thoughts on pros and cons from folks who have heard and owned the two?

Appreciate any feedback from y’all! Loving the sense of community here amongst Decware fans! Thanks!
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Zu Soul Supreme V, Torii MKV 25th Anniversary Mods, Rogue Audio RP7, Aurender N100H, Denafrips Ares II, Nottingham Space 294 w. Shelter Harmony MC, AllNic H-1202 Phono
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GroovySauce
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #1 - 03/18/21 at 13:24:58
 
Sai, Welcome to the forums.

I've had the UFO25TH, ZMA-25th and Toriii MKIV-25th in the same room and system this month.

A single UFO25TH and the Zu speakers will play very loud! I have a DIY pair of Lii Audio F15 + W15 speakers. I'm guessing 91-95db. The UFO25TH had the power to pressurize the room very well,  giving a good gut punch when the music calls for it.

The Torii MKIV is my amp, the other two I was borrowing. The Torii is my favorite of the 3 amps. I'm guessing I have some bias because it's mine.

All three amps are very good However, For me the Torii has the right balance of control, space, tone, and rich harmonics. I really like the reconstructive feedback control and the ability to lower the treble a little bit as well.

The UFO25TH doesn't have the control in the bass, lower mid bass that the Torii and the ZMA have. It's still really good in the bass department though. It does have a cohesiveness to the music that is pleasing and hard to describe.

Both are fantastic choices. I prefer the Torii MKIV, is it a better amp? I wouldn't say that, it's different.

When Steve talks about an out of body listening experience, the Torii is the ticket for me.




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Maximus NEO TT|ViV Rigid Float TA | Phasemation PP-200 or Hana ML | Sutherland Little Loco MK2 | Innuos ZENith MK3 | LampizatOr GA TRP | EMIA Remote Autoformer | Add-Powr Sorcer x4 | Snake River Audio Cables | PAP Quintet 15 1.6 Voxativ |Torus AVR15|AF Treatment
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Lon
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #2 - 03/18/21 at 14:02:20
 
I actually think with your speakers in that size room you could choose any single amp in the lineup and have great sound.

My experience has been a little different that GS's. . . . I have had the 27th amp Steve built, then converted to Rev. A, a modded C amp, a Select, a pair of the SE84 Monoblocks he used to build, an SE34 integrated, a Torii Mk II, a Torii Mk III, a Taboo Mk III, and now own a Taboo Mk IV and a pair of SE84UFO3 Monoblocks both with the Anniversary mods.

I started off with the 2 watt Zen amps, then fell in love with the Radial speaker designs and found I needed more power, but as time has gone by both these speakers became more efficient and I found that I loved the sound of the smaller amps much better than the sound of the larger amps. My recommendation since you will have such efficient speakers would be to get the SE84UFO25 with the Anniversary mods. The Anniversary mods transform these amplifiers giving the sound density, heft, body. Welcome to the board and to the long wait for an amp! Whichever amp you choose, consider adding the Anniversary mods. I wish I could have had these two decades ago!
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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CAJames
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #3 - 03/18/21 at 18:10:03
 
I agree you'd probably be fine with a single UFO25 with your setup. But, just FWIW, I'm using 2 UFOs configured as balanced monoblocks in a smaller room with 95 dB Omega speakers and the sound is fantastic. I can't really compare one amp to two for a variety of reasons, and didn't buy 2 because I felt I needed more power, but during the times when do crank it up I'm glad I've got a couple extra watts. So, while you'd be fine with one I'm here to validate you if you want two anyway.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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will
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #4 - 03/18/21 at 18:49:18
 
It was really interesting to me reading these first responses. With different ultimate thoughts for which amp was favored, I think all three make sense. But for simplicity. I will comment mostly on the first two posts... though the context of speakers were notable for all three.

My other main thought was how much the 25th mods influence what we experience with these amps, likely an important consideration in looking at impressions. I hope I have this right Lon, but I am thinking your segue back to low power was 1st in difficult listening circumstances....like a small space and having to listen near field? Then, in your next rooms, didn't you start to integrate the 25th mods then? Just wondering, since your systems now have a number of pieces made with 25th mods, as well as 25th modified older pieces, how might mods, room changes, and listening habits (in your somewhat newly-married life) influence comparisons to your MKIII Torii without mods?

As I recall Steve's impressions from mods on the Torii IV, I am pretty sure he said the Torii improved exceptionally compared to others at the time, and that he may not of made the Mystery amp had he known how far he could take the Torii IV with mods??? Sorry, I can't figure out how to easily find the post that comes to mind in those long mod threads, so my words, but this is the gist of what I recall.

Just thinking that I can certainly imagine how you would prefer modded low power amps over modded higher power ones. But also we know non-modded amps are really quite different from modded ones, so wondering how that might effect impressions of a given amp.

I have not heard Steve's modifications, but my Torii IV modifications include a different but similar version of power supply and input resistor upgrades, while upgrading other areas as well, and the results are mind bending to me. My wife is more science oriented in training, and her mind works much better than mine at conservative and careful analysis with percentages. She stopped counting quite a while ago as my collective mods to Torii, CSP3 and HR-1s went to 2-2.5 times better than the pretty tuned up stock system for refinement of sonic values and enhanced musical experience. Sounds crazy, but I am talking refinements that make it more like real music, and how do we gauge those...part of why I am not good at percentage statements. But whatever, power supply and resistor mods effect lots across the spectrum, improving and refining most values we can attribute to more refined sonics, and to more complete musical experience.

The other thing that occurred to me was speakers. I have heard variations of both, F-15 baffles (Groovy), and HR-1s (Lon), from online representations at Decfest and on demo recordings Steve has made... Not perfect but pretty nicely indicative of the differences. And I own HR-1s, so feel relatively confident saying these speakers have similarities, but quite different ways of conveying music. To me they are both good, but notably different flavors. And I don't know how Groovy's DIY F-15 baffles compare, but imagine, set up with bass supplementation, it is at least in the neighborhood of Steve's big baffles??? But to me the HR-1s reflect different sonic choices, giving a rounder, softer, and "warmer" overall feel than Steve's baffles. Basically I find the F-15s faster and "clearer" feeling than HR-1s, while still being harmonically rich and complex....And my preferences put me somewhere in between for my HR modifications.

Anyway, I suspect speaker and other differences could easily influence one's amp preferences...the HR-1 warming up and softening the low power amps, and the Torii IV beefing up and warming F-15 baffles? I will be interested in you all's thoughts, but if this seems real, then how would these ZUs play into this equation?

When I compared lower power amps in my room, with a nicely tuned, but unmodded Torii, my rooms are bigger, contributing, but with my more clarified and faster HR-1s, I really missed the power from the Torii. And not just for volume, but for how the Torii pushed the small drivers harder, as well as the Torii being tonally more weighty, bigger, fuller in my live sounding room, while still having excellent fine detail and space.

If I had the F-15 baffles, though I can't guess which I would like better in my room without hearing them, I imagine that signature would have influenced my amp impressions in pretty big ways. Online and listening to recordings, I really like the sound of Big Baffles and the 25th Zen, noticing a musical clarity and speed with really nice complexity, and not noticing a lack of weight or "power." But those are big, fast, musical and efficient drivers, actively contribute to making a big, impactful sound.

Just a few thoughts to add to the conversation. I can imagine a modified Torii, or modified monos, or the 25th Zen all sounding great though with efficient speakers.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Lon
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #5 - 03/18/21 at 19:07:38
 
Actually Will, to clear things up my move to lower-powered amps preceded my recent move of the main system to a long, narrower space about 2/3 the volume of the previous living room-dining room area that now houses my main system.

I was using the Torii Mk III and then I bought a Taboo Mk IV which I was going to use as a headphone amp but hooked up the HR-1s to and BOOM there was that single-ended sound I hadn't realized I had missed from my first decade of Decware life. The sound was over 90 percent what I wanted from the Torii Mk III with that extra special "togetherness" that I hear from the smaller amps. Steve suggested that what I needed to bridge that gap was a ZROCK2 . . . and I got one. . . and he was right.

Then Steve came up wtih the 25th Anniversary amp and had modded the SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with the Anniversary Mods and I had an intuition that the Monoblocks with the Mods might be the amps I had sort of been craving. . . I ordered a pair. . . and they were, just so satisying--detailed, articulate, dynamic. Then I ordered a CSP3 with the Mods, and was using a ZTPRE to ZBIT to ZROCK2 to CSP3 to Monoblocks chain in the big room. . . until my wife's objections to the Mapleshade racks and what she saw as a "science experiment" (her opinion of the aesthetics of the Decware components) became incessant and insurmountabled and I moved the main system upstairs to this room 2/3 the size and built the audio/visual system in the larger room around a ZBIT, ZROCK2, and a Taboo Mk IV and a CSP2+ that I had both had upgraded with the Anniversary Mods, hidden behind a rustic "etsy-sourced" cadenza/TV stand that she loves and got me to buy. (In neither room would I say I am listening "near field"--I sit about ten feet back from the speakers.)

So I still have a low-powered Taboo Mk IV in my biggest room and the Monoblocks in the other, and my two Torii Mk IIIs and my Torii Mk II are long sold. . . and I have to confess I thought I might miss them a lot. . .and I don't!
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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CAJames
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #6 - 03/18/21 at 19:43:04
 
Quote:
Posted by: will      Posted on: Today at 18:49:18

... I really missed the power from the Torii. And not just for volume...



As usual Will gets to the core of the issue. IMO (and this very much just my opinion) there is a difference between an amp/speaker combo playing "loud" and playing "well." For me, my experience is there is a real difference  between the quality of the sound, particularly at high volumes, when the amp has a lot of extra power in reserve. I said above I can't really compare a single UFO to both in my system, but what I did do is play both at half power by only using one phase of the balanced signal. And the system sounded good, and played loud, but not as good as at full power. Obviously more was going on than just cutting the power in half, but the results were consistent with my experience going back a long time. Again, JMO, and it is almost the opposite of what Lon likes, so it just goes to show how different we all are. And yet Decware works for all of us, which is pretty cool.

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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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will
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #7 - 03/18/21 at 20:22:14
 
Thanks for the update Lon, and sorry for my misunderstanding. I am still a little confused though. When you said: "my move to lower-powered amps preceded my recent move of the main system to a long, narrower space about 2/3 the volume of the previous living room-dining room area that now houses my main system," I think I recall this move in your current house. Vague, but what I thought I was remembering was a place you were staying when you first moved back to Ohio to help your family, and your enjoying using a small Zen amp near field with your HR1s there???

None-the-less, it sounds like you switched from your Torii III in your current house to a Taboo IV/ZROCK2, the Taboo without mods......and not getting into modifications until your monos??? If I got that right, it sounds like you were comparing an un-modded Torii to an un-modded Taboo (with a ZROCK ultimately), and though not quite the same as comparing modded to modded, this clarifies one of the thoughts/questions I had.

Interesting indeed how the Taboo felt like it gave you 90% of the Torii, and adding the ZROCK2 bridged that gap and more!


I am just always amazed at how everything effects everything in our resolving systems, and how complex that really is.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Lon
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #8 - 03/18/21 at 21:15:24
 
Will, When I first moved to Ohio nearly 8 years ago and set up my systems my Torii was not acting entirely right after the trip in the UHAUL, and I sent it back to the mothership, also taking the opportunity to add the bass controls. To tide me over I first bought a DAL Audio chip amp from their shop which was 3 miles from my place. A nice amp, but I just missed tubes. So I bought a C amp offered on the forum modded by Eddie Vaughn. In that town home my listening, to the Torii Mk III and the DAL Audio and the C amp (and then for two years with the returned Torii) was near-field. When I got the Torii back I rotated the C amp around to my upstairs system, my parents' place for a spell, and then to my present home which wasn't my present home yet, but my (then future and now present) wife's home replacing a Sony receiver that she was using and we both thought the C amp was a better sounding choice with either her Sony speakers or my ERR or HR-1. When I moved in to this house, I put my main system into the living room/dining room. When I did get the Taboo MK IV and set it up, and then when I did get the Monoblocks, still in this room, I did compare both to the Torii Mk III, using ZROCK2 and CSP3 with the mods. I had put it back in several times to see how it compared, and to see whether I needed to keep it. I just preferred the Monoblocks, even the Taboo--I just seem to prefer the single-ended topography to the push-pull--I just feel closer to the performance with the littler amps. No, the Torii was unmodded, but it did not make sense to me to send the Torii in for mods just for comparison, figuring I was not likely to keep it. And as for "head room"--with the ZROCK2, the ZBIT, the CSP3 (and in the other system ZROCK2, ZBIT and CSP2+) I can get all the volume I need and more (can't stand to listen to it all the way up, way too loud) and I feel these amps control the HR-1s very effectively.

So. . . I have compared more than once and I like the lower-powered signature better. . . and I don't envy other amps any longer.

I hope it's not too confusing. I did listen near-field to both the lower powered and the Torii amps, and in large rooms with both.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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Sai
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #9 - 03/18/21 at 22:13:37
 
To start with, I really want to express my gratitude for your opinions and for sharing your experiences with me. I feel humbled that you would take the time and effort to answer my questions.

It sure is a conundrum, but thankfully, it would appear that one would not go wrong choosing between the Torii Mk IV, SE84UFO25, Taboo Mk IV, ZMA, or SE84UFO3 mono blocks. Frankly, choosing any of Steve's amps for that matter!

In my opinion, for me I'm going to end up choosing between a pair of SE84UFO25 amps, and a Torii MK IV with Anniversary Mods.

The Torii MK IV (w. Anniversary Mods) would definitely be cheaper than a pair of SE84UFO25s. Also, the higher wattage may give me options to choose a slightly lower efficiency (gasp!) speaker in the future without any worry. That said, I find it hard to believe that I would ever choose anything less than 91 db @ 1w, 1m.

The SE84UFO25 sounds like it would be the "end game" from a dynamics, pace and musicality perspective for my current setup and listening room. It would be the more expensive option if I were to buy a pair.  There would be no issues with loudness, dynamic headroom, and enjoyability whatsoever.

However, if the speaker and or listening room were to change significantly I would need to address that. My guess is, in this situation, I'll likely build the system around the SE84UFO25 because I would love it so much! I think it would likely work for most of the rooms that I might use it in as well.

No matter what though, the Anniversary Mods on offer, and other mods seem well worth the price!
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Zu Soul Supreme V, Torii MKV 25th Anniversary Mods, Rogue Audio RP7, Aurender N100H, Denafrips Ares II, Nottingham Space 294 w. Shelter Harmony MC, AllNic H-1202 Phono
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will
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #10 - 03/19/21 at 01:10:49
 
Lon,

I think I got that Smiley

But still am not clear if you compared a non-modded Torii III to a nonmodded Taboo IV. And based on the unbelievable authenticity and "realness" of the sound I have gotten from modifications to my Torii IV, even with your excellent listening skills, it is hard for me to imagine comparing an unmodded Torii III to a modded pair of SE84 Monos or modded Taboo IV as a particularly realistic comparison...

Having auditioned several Decware low powered amps, and owning a SE34.2+ for quite a while, in my system/room my modifications of the Torii made it sound quite a bit more refined and musical than unmodified single ended amps I tried. And the Torii has way more oomph, something I actually need for serious listening in my biggish room with 92.5 dB speakers. So I just can't use a lower power amp here without getting more efficient speakers anyway.

Related, certainly not the same as being there, but from what I can discern listening to Steve's SE84UFO25 on his recorded videos, I would not be surprised if I preferred my seriously refined Torii. But I have upgraded most wires and parts, mainly one position at a time, and none staying without giving a notable overall improvement. And I found what I started with, the stock MKIV notably more refined than my stock MKIII.

Though likely having many similarities with the Decware 25th modded Torii IV, mine is not the same, so I can't comment clearly on Steve's mods more than to suggest mine have been profound... But this experience makes it really easy to imagine Steve's modifications having transformed the original MKIVwith musical refinements that further diminish push-pull versus single ended questions.

And even if I were to prefer the SE84UFO25 with direct comparisons, the SE would not be powerful enough here unless I got more efficient speakers, likely useful information for perspective buyers and folks like Sai's evaluations.

That said, the combination of my ZBIT, CSP3 and Torii, all seriously modified, the sound is so unbelievably beautiful, I am just not looking anyway....though you do have me considering a ZROCK2 again!

My main point though, especially with 25th modifications, modifications that continue to refine as Steve works them, comparisons and decisions seem considerably more complex than without the mods to me.... the modified amps, and the SE84UFO25 created "modified," taking them all into new territory.



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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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will
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #11 - 03/19/21 at 01:15:14
 
Sai,

Sounds like you are on a good track in thinking this through. The only thing I would add is relative to some points about loudness you are already looking at.

I couldn't find the efficiency of the Soul Supremes, but if they are high 90s, and with the rooms you are talking about, it does seem likely that about any of the Decware amps you mention could work.

But as you are clearly considering, with these lower power amps, speaker efficiency and room size and characters are notably more important than with more powerful amps. And for me, being on the border was not a good thing, loving the SE34 sound, but distortion too much of a concern in my room and with my speakers. And though not on all recordings, it was on enough to be a burden for me. So I replaced my pre-Rachel amp with a Torii based on my particular circumstances.

My loudest listening is in my dark room, during late-night serious listening. And with my Torii toned down some power-wise due to tube choices... and in this extended-space room (quite a bit more volume than the larger room you mention)... and my speakers rated at 92.5 dB — I can get plenty loud for me, but I do approach the edge of max headroom. This is with loudness averaging in the ±80 dB area and most peaks into the low/mid 80s, but with occasional peaks on some recordings up around 90 give or take. I could get louder with more forceful tubes, and/or with either the CSP3 or ZBIT alone, the combination of both with my Torii introducing distortion a little lower. But much louder would hurt for me, and I love this combination of pre stages and tubes, so am quite content.

Not to say this experience necessarily has bearing on your circumstances and needs, but it did for me, and might for others.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Lon
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #12 - 03/19/21 at 01:20:38
 
I DID compare a non-modded Taboo Mk IV to the Torii Mk III which I have never heard modded. That was what got me started back on the single-ended instead of push-pull journey. The Torii did have more in the lower frequencies BUT it had a harder nature to the rest of the spectrum. The ZROCK2 managed to level that playing field. In comparisons between the Torii and the Taboo and Monoblocks, the former at first non-modded then modded, in the same room(s) I just kept feeling excited and grounded by the lower-amplifier signature.  The presentation was so much more "natural" to me than the Torii's, and the detail was in a tapestry rather than highlighted hifi-like. And I do not have a need for more power for the rooms I have and I don't think I'll be having any other rooms to play in for decades to come. It is hard to explain how a fundamental difference in the topology has reached me and moved me, I just fell out of love with the push-pull sound.

I am under the impression the OP doesn't need more power than an SE84UFO25 might deliver either in his present room with his present speakers.

I'm sure a modded Torii is a wonderful thing. . . but I don't think it will alter the signature character I have decided I prefer. And so I recommend that as I know how great the sound is.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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will
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #13 - 03/19/21 at 13:28:40
 
Your impressions make sense to me Lon. Smooth detail complexity in open space, and associated "natural" qualities that come with these, are critical to me for a deeper musical experience..... more complete harmonic information.... textures...clearer and more complex decays and room sound.... This was probably the main reason a few parts changes, and a few power supply bypass experiments put me on a many year exploration with bypassing and other small value cap filtering, while exploring more resolving parts throughout. By nature, clarifying, speeding things up, and associated, resolving subtle smearing... with supportive part choices, musically refined revelation of space and a "fabric" of detail complexity continue to seduce.

Also, I have experienced lower power amps being too quiet in my situation after pretty authoritative recommendations implying they would likely be loud enough. So I have gotten more detailed in talking about it.

So I don't mean to discourage lower power amps, not at all. It is just that the "buzz" over them on this forum is strong, and rightfully so with Steve's ongoing innovations and designs. But my experience implies the validity of trying to be clearer on how an amp will work with given speakers and in given room sizes.... hopefully with measured loudness levels in relation to room size and speaker efficiency to at least help get a sense of meeting preferred listening level needs. At the same time, it seems clear that with the right very efficient speakers, I would not have had some of the issues I have had in this room.

So I am not recommending a Torii either. I am just suggesting that a modified Torii IV is a notably different amp from a stock Torii III, and that it is likely a good option if there are real concerns over power, now, or due to suspected potential changes, and/or preferences for a Torii or ZMA signature.

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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #14 - 03/19/21 at 13:53:49
 
Okay. But in my shoes I just don't want to not recommend the single-ended low powered amps as I found their intrinsic nature to be fundamentally more to my liking after more than a decade of push-pull, and as it seems that the speakers this inquirer has should be sufficient that adds to my perceived need to make that recommendation. That's all. It looks as if this inquirer has a handle on the parameters and can make an informed choice due to input on this thread.
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #15 - 03/19/21 at 15:43:15
 
Lon hit the heart of the matter, single ended vs push-pull are fundamentally different.  Steve’s designs seem to let the beauty of differences shine.

It then comes down to personal preferences. My brother and I are both audiophiles so for many years we have compared gear together. We rarely both agree on what one we would choose for ourselves. We do agree on what is better across the board and what is not pleasing. We have enough experience to know which component or change each other will put their money on.

I love air and space, closing your eyes and being transported to another location. I’m also very sensitive to high frequency energy, I’ll give up a little spatial information if it’s “hot on top”. Solid bass foundation allows the spatial information in the recording to flow free. This applies to real life acoustic spaces example a cathedral or 2 mic recordings, it also applies to synthetically created spaces inside a computer, think Yello. Ranking the amps in the sense of space in my system. 1st Torii, UFO, ZMA. Tube selection might change this ordering. I did use the same input tubes across all of them.  

Based on the above paragraph, which would be better single ended or push-pull for me? I say with that limited information it’s impossible to say. It comes down to so many factors of personal preference.

I’m not looking to have a second system, knowing myself, eventually I will have a second system. When that comes the UFO3-25th monos are on the short list.

The Zu Soul Supreme are 101db 1W, 1m http://www.zuaudio.com/s/SoulSupreme-1A_CS-mj5d.pdf

Sai, either way you will have a great amplifier(s).
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #16 - 03/19/21 at 17:20:28
 
Well, those are efficient speakers!

GroovySauce,

I wonder if you have time to write down some more comparisons from your amazing opportunity to spend time with these three amps in your room? Perhaps mention the common tubes used, and also touch on differences you attribute to Steve's modified push-pull amps versus the single ended SE84UFO25???

It would be cool in the context fo this thread, and I know I would love to hear more on comparisons/impressions if you have time and the inclination!

Thanks,

Will
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #17 - 03/20/21 at 14:00:00
 
I’ve given a highlight of the Torii MKIV I’ll do the same for the UFO25th and ZMA. I didn’t sit down to compare the amps I just wanted to enjoy music, So these are impressions that stuck with me, not detailed analysis of the differences. I've been living with the ZMA for months. I had the UFO25th in my system for 2 days last weekend. My Torii was sitting in it's pelican case in Asia since last March and I just received it 4 days ago.

My brother and I are planning sometime in April to spend some more time with all three amps. Hopefully it works out as I’m sending my Torii back to the mothership to get converted from 230v to 120v soon. This brings up an important point, The Torii and ZMA are wired for 230v and running through a 120v to 230v step up transformer, It’s a $40 unit. I’ve found power to be a very important part of the system, so keep that in mind.

From time to time, there is a song or a part of a song that really grabs you, especially when it has a realism that startles you. Taking me back to being a young one, playing with my toy cars, stopping to listen as my mom played the piano. I was brought back to that sound, the startling and authoritative way the lower octaves on a piano can catch you off guard. The ZMA captures this, lays down the low frequency foundation in an effortless way. The speed, attack and decay are all there. The silence between the notes is almost agonizing as you wait for the next one. It also has a delicacy when needed.

I used cohesiveness, Lon used togetherness when describing the Decware SE84 amps. Both of these descriptions are accurate and don’t do it justice. There is a magic with the UFO25TH that is hard to define. Imagine trying to describe chocolate to someone who never has tasted it before. That is similar to describing the way music flows from this amp.

Input tubes: Electro-Harmonix 6922 gold pins
Power tubes: PP amps, GL kt66. SE84, unknown 6P15P
Rectifiers: Torii, Winged C 5u4. SE84, Tubestore preferred 5AR4
Inverter ZMA: 6n1p unknown brand
Voltage: All three used Westinghouse 0A3. Torii, RCA 0c2

If we do get all three amps together again. I’ll write a more in depth about the differences between the amps in a new thread.
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #18 - 03/20/21 at 15:24:32
 
Nice! Thanks.
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #19 - 03/20/21 at 17:31:51
 
Thanks GroovySauce, and looking forward to more one day!
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #20 - 03/30/21 at 01:40:28
 
Quick update, even if it's not great news for comparisons.

I sent my Torii MKIV 25th back to get converted from 230v to 120v. I also asked to have the caps replaced with the MiFlex caps. So it will be a difference of the caps and the amps, not a "clean" comparison.

I will say this. I've been listening to the ZMA and thinking how did I choose the Torii MKIV over this? I'm not saying it's better! I'm still loving the Torii MKIV, they are both just so damn good! The point is all 3 amps are fantastic! I'm happy to have any one in my system.
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #21 - 03/30/21 at 03:44:39
 
Lon, Will, and GroovySauce. Thanks so much for your input on the ZMA, Torii Zen MK IV, and the SE84UFO25, and SE84UFO!

In the end I ended up sticking to ordering the Torii Zen MK IV. I see this as a huge step up for me even though it may not have all the magic of a SET amp as a push-pull amp.

The way I see it, I will probably love it. It takes away from the angst of whether a couple of watts would do just fine for me. That said though, I know a few years down the line, my curiosity will get the best of me, and I will end up probably also end up buying one of the SET amps.

I'm just happy that with the Zu Soul Supreme, the entire line up is fair game as a pairing!

Now if time could just fly by so I could get my Torii Zen Mk IV, it would be real swell! I'm literally on the last page of the waitlist  :)
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #22 - 03/30/21 at 19:10:37
 
Hey Sai,

I am glad you feel like you ended up with a choice you like. With all the amps so good in their own ways, especially with speakers that are so efficient, deciding is no doubt challenging!

Thinking or the Torii versus SE, with five tube sets, each of which being amazingly useful for subtle or fairly serious adjustments, there are sort of countless ways to adjust your sound with tubes. Also, a number of adjustments the amp allows with switches and potentiometers.... And how different feet, cables, power, etc influence the signature and sound.....  All Steve's amps allow notable sonic adjustability, but the Torii MKIV may be the most adjustable. And though it has a distinct signature that will always be there, I think you will find you can make a lot of different flavors within that as a means to tune to your system/room and preferences.

Of course, that does not make it "better." And I personally have not heard it with seriously efficient speakers, but here, I find I can tune it to have a real-music feel, and with a notable potential for "oomph."

Good luck with your wait, and with integrating your new amp and new speakers in your system/room!
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #23 - 03/31/21 at 04:56:44
 
Thanks so much!
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Re: Decware Amp Suggestion - new to Decware
Reply #24 - 01/13/22 at 06:35:17
 
Sai, did your Torii Mk IV arrive yet?

Very curious to hear how it sounds with your Zu Soul Supremes.
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