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New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!! (Read 12379 times)
Steve Deckert
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New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
12/13/20 at 04:13:34
 

I now have the updated reference speaker from Lii Audio with the new 'Silver 10 drivers', a replacement for the prior 'Crystal 10 drivers'...

OMG

I feel relatively comfortable saying it's the best sounding full-range crossoverless speaker I've heard to date. It's in a whole new league now.  

This is with 52 minutes of low volume play time so far.  Yes I said minutes.  And see, this is how it always is when something is super right... it sounds that way even without break-in.   Rare, but real.

I'll update this thread as I get more listening time in over the holidays and post some pics.  Meanwhile you can see them on the Lii Audio website.  

https://www.lii-audio.com/product/one-pair-10-inch-full-range-drivers-and-cabine...



-Steve
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Steve Deckert
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #1 - 12/13/20 at 04:32:00
 

I can't believe what I'm hearing.  Everything sounds so real.  The body and weight and midrange bloom and nuts detail in the top end is just insane.  

In fact right now I'm listening to 'AVRATS' on 'Converging Vegetarians' by 'Infected Mushroom' and realizing it's the best highs I've ever heard!  Just amazing.  Never heard a tweeter this good, and then the bass part came in and I literally gasped.

Damn, this is going to be a good Christmas season!

Steve

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Steve Deckert
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #2 - 12/13/20 at 04:45:49
 
The imaging is insane as well.  Speakers on the long wall about 7 feet between the speakers.  Soundstage is 27 feet wide, the width of the room.  Can't tell where the speakers are and everything is so pin point focused it's almost disarming.

So there, I've captured my first impressions, during the first magic hour or two when your mind only hears what's different before it readjusts and everything melts into the new norm.  First impressions are everything in my business of designing stuff.  When it smokes your brain in the first hour instead of torment you with false promise, you know it's real.

The bass of these speakers that I've bragged on in the past has just taken on a new quality and depth that is just - rare.  If the world could get a subwoofer to sound like this everyone would think it was some kind of new technology.  

2 watts literally makes the concrete shudder and the whole building breath during low bass passages, all at a normal listening volumes.  It's so natural... never heard a full-range point source that dropped below 30 Hz with so much weight it moves the whole room.  It's so fast.  So fast.  Sounds like the Acoustats that I own with the 5000V direct drive servo-charged tube amps connected directly to the panels.  It's that kind of fast.

Speaker should probably have been named the Lii Audio Holy Grail.

Steve
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ovs-audio
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #3 - 12/13/20 at 07:38:56
 
Nice, its a copy from musical affairs, with phy drivers.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #4 - 12/13/20 at 07:44:41
 
Wow, Steve, that's high praise, coming from you. I'm wondering how you would compare these new speakers to the Zen Master Series with the Lii Audio F15 drivers. Your comments lead me to believe that maybe the new ones go higher and deeper than the open baffles. Am I reading that right?
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #5 - 12/13/20 at 13:05:23
 
BH,
I love Steve's enthusiasm on the new drivers. His endeavors are great two way open ended entertainment, I treasure. He got me wondering on this one now...damn it! I was set on using the F-15s in open baffles and he pulls this out of his hat! But, and you know there is a but...any speaker in a box leads to a tiny room within a listening room. It will need treatment to overcome the limiting space just like the listening room. Double trouble in my view.
After some thought, the F15's are still a go in open baffles for the Zen setup. Open baffles give a real reproduction of music and leave the listener just the room to deal with in treatments. F15s are light and fast with plenty of area to reproduce the lows without augmentation.
John
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HockessinKid
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #6 - 12/13/20 at 13:13:24
 
Wow, Lii Audio has come out with another winner. Sounds like the new Silver 10 will occupy extended listening time at the 2021 Decfest.

Regarding the F15 open baffle set up, I found that the stock driver terminals really restricted the treble response. Removing them and inserting KLEI copper terminals just opened up the higher end.

Yes it needs to be done carefully and voids the driver warranty.

I hope that Lii Audio has changed out the driver and speaker terminations on there new speakers, it was the only weak link on the F15's I found.

HK
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #7 - 12/13/20 at 13:39:34
 
Those are pretty in the dark wood.
46.85" tall and  23.62" wide, pretty big too.

I guess I like them like my women, dark and tall, lol.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #8 - 12/13/20 at 13:39:46
 
'Lil audio strikes again!
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JBzen
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #9 - 12/13/20 at 16:34:13
 
HK, note taken.
Thanks.
John
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esewell
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #10 - 12/13/20 at 22:13:59
 
This is very interesting.  I am about to pull the trigger on a new pair of drivers.  I am considering Audio Nirvana Super 8 Plus alnico ($1,495 per pair), Lii Audio Silver 10 ($1,199 per pair), and Cube Audio F8 Magus ($2,800 per pair).  Has anyone heard or compared these speakers?  Thoughts on the Silver 10's predecessor, the Crystal 10, also would be appreciated.

For reference, I am currently using Audio Nirvana Class 8 Ferrite drivers, which I like very much.  But I am ready to move up!  And I just got my first tube amp, a SE84UFO2, about 2 months ago, and I am loving it.


Ed
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #11 - 12/14/20 at 02:13:18
 
Wow, those look awesome.

I'm 450 miles away.  Hope for a better 2021 and Decfest opportunity!
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Steve Deckert
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #12 - 12/14/20 at 16:36:09
 
ovs-audio, it's actually nothing like the Musical Affairs speaker.  The Lii cabinet has a bottom, has a tuned duct in the rear.  Classic 4th order design.

Bottlehead, yes that's the advantage of a large cabinet - they go much lower than the Zen Master Series open baffles featuring the F15 driver.  Much higher as well.  Significantly faster.

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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #13 - 12/15/20 at 01:26:12
 
esewell,
I am attracted to the new Lii Silver-8 @ $400 pair. But not as much Bass as the 10 inch.

Brian
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #14 - 12/15/20 at 22:35:11
 
Brian,

  Have you heard the Lii Silver-8?  Do you have any idea why the Silver-10's cost three times as much as the Silver-8's?

Ed
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #15 - 12/16/20 at 02:12:47
 
Do they offer grills to protect the speakers from little hands of my kids?
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #16 - 12/16/20 at 03:07:15
 
Lii audio does not offer grills. Parts Express does. A pair of waffle mesh grills and mounting hardware will cost you less than $20. It may affect the sound quality, but small finger holes and rips would be worse.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #17 - 12/16/20 at 06:09:54
 
Despite only being phone recordings, these are some of the best speaker demo's I've done.  Flipping the room 90 degrees and putting the speakers on the long wall like most people will have to do gives a more accurate representation.  In the case of these speakers, it fills in the mid bass that was lacking in the previous demo of this same cabinet.  

The sound is incredible.  It's as big as the room.

You are listening to a 3000.00 pair of speakers that sound like 30,000.00 speakers.  Driven by a single 2.3 watt Zen Triode amplifier. $1295.00 for that.  This is by far the most impressive speaker for a Zen Triode amplifier - ever.


https://decware.wistia.com/medias/kzvsynuo8m

https://decware.wistia.com/medias/z7flz5oaul

https://decware.wistia.com/medias/wggo0jalkh

https://decware.wistia.com/medias/ev7ot3voum

https://decware.wistia.com/medias/ldl90odcn3

https://decware.wistia.com/medias/vcs6fsm5mq

https://decware.wistia.com/medias/uzehdabmnd

https://decware.wistia.com/medias/gkbf5k9oiw

MAKE SURE you wear headphones, or you won't hear what I hear!!!
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #18 - 12/16/20 at 12:02:09
 
Sounds great Steve. Very detailed and full bodied. Love the kick drum on the 2nd track. Very good vocals from the Temptations. Violin track is detailed and rich...as well as the acoustical guitar track.
Kitty cat is aroused! That's a good sign.
Not convinced those would play well in the Charoit though.
Cheers!
John
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #19 - 12/16/20 at 13:37:02
 
Steve,

      I have been very interested in these speakers for some time now but have reservations with the size of my room. It’s relatively small at 10’x12’ and wonder if these would just not work in that amount of space. I’m currently using the alnico Betsy baffles with great success but would like to upgrade to these eventually. Any insight is much appreciated.

Thanks
Adam
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Steve Deckert
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #20 - 12/16/20 at 18:01:36
 
In a 10x12 space I believe it would be challenging compared to a larger room.  To get the sound I am hearing you would have to put diffusers on all four walls bass traps in the corners and have a dedicated listening chair in the exact correct location and with all that it will feel somewhat like a head vise system whereas with the open baffle, the rear wave washes the walls and makes the room sound bigger than it is.  My advise is stay with what you have, save these for a bigger room.

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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #21 - 12/16/20 at 19:18:10
 
I have been intrigued by these speakers (the complete build available from Decware not just the drivers).  Could these be used on the short wall of a 19x12ft room with speakers very close to corners (7.5ft ceiling height)?  I would not be opposed to adding some GIK bass traps if needed.  That is about the only way I could get a speaker of this size granted permission for the living room Smiley
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Steve Deckert
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #22 - 12/16/20 at 20:22:28
 
Hi Jeff,

Yea, I think that would probably work.  Since these speakers have a large duct instead of a port, they tolerate placement to the walls better.  Also the speakers are not mid-bass heavy so as you can hear in the videos up against the wall the response is ideal.  Worse case is you would have more bass than you're used to., but again with traps even that can be overcome.

BTW, welcome to the forums!

Steve
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #23 - 12/17/20 at 00:46:40
 
Thanks Steve for sharing these recordings! Does indeed sound fantastic even with this smartphone recording. I like the fuller mids compared to the crystal 10 recordings.
I'm looking for a new speaker for my new living room next year, big room with open to the 2nd floor, and this one is in the top 3 of my speakers to listen too:).
Is one SE84 enough do drive it loud levels in large rooms, or would you recommend having two of them in mono configuration?
Also, looks like your cabinet is not the new one with the upgraded wood and high gloss finish, correct?

Thanks for spending the time to review and test these speakers even if someone else built them  ;) , highly respect that!
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #24 - 12/18/20 at 13:14:05
 
thank you for the response Steve ... are there less issues with the finish on the latest model?  I believe you had mentioned at one point the finish is not perfect but good at the price level.  also how does the Silver 10 compare to the Crystal 10 driver?  Do you ever offer demo speakers for sale from Decware?  $3k is still a lot of $$$ for my budget (healthcare workers are not paid what they should be!)
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Steve Deckert
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #25 - 12/18/20 at 16:48:28
 
The original cabinet design used MDF and my pair did in fact have a couple small cosmetic flaws as a result.  Now they are being made from solid plywood with a heavy lacquer finish so I'm sure they will be fine.

This pair may become available this winter or in the spring... however they would only be sold to someone who can come and pick them up.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #26 - 12/19/20 at 02:19:40
 
esewell
Hello Ed,
No, I have not heard any of the Lii speakers.
I thought perhaps the extra cost for the Silver-10 and Crystal-10 is a premium for buying the top model.

Brian
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #27 - 12/19/20 at 02:55:46
 
They are more expensive than the other speakers but, compare cost to sound and they are very inexpensive!!
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #28 - 12/20/20 at 15:49:28
 
I wonder if anyone has made any of the speakers they they show plans of on their website?

Maybe I can look into some of them next year.

https://www.lii-audio.com/dt_gallery/
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #29 - 12/20/20 at 16:17:37
 
I’ve been following posts about these on FB...Torn between Cornwalls and these, i know, i know, totally different sound signatures...
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #30 - 12/20/20 at 16:28:34
 
Donnie,

I had made the Crystal 10 enclosure before putting them into an open baffle. I added more bracing and the whole cabinet still vibrated like crazy. The low end output also dropped off like a stone off a cliff. I would say 60-70hz it went straight down.

It did give me a taste of what the C-10 were about and made me very excited about putting them in an open baffle, which is very nice.

For a driver of the C-10's caliber I say that box design let's it down.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #31 - 12/20/20 at 21:11:53
 
Groovysauce,

           What type of OB did you use them in?

Thanks
Adam
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #32 - 12/20/20 at 23:14:52
 
Adam,

I started to copy PAP Trio 15 style.



That project is in another country, so it's on hiatus for now.

Here is a messy picture as far as I got. W15's are planned for those 15" holes.



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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #33 - 12/20/20 at 23:23:28
 
Nice. I look forward to your impressions once finally finished!
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #34 - 12/31/20 at 20:24:04
 
This is very interesting news.  I thought the Crystal 10s were my end game speaker drivers but if I can simply swap these in for the Crystal 10s without changing anything in the build, it is tempting to try them.  The question is going to be cost vs improvement in sound quality.  

For what it's worth, I found that the W15s were very easy to match with the Crystal 10s in a single baffle build.  I am sure a speaker builder with more experience could do better but I am thrilled with the results. Here is a link with a picture of them:


https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1593281669
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #35 - 01/02/21 at 06:04:58
 

UPDATE

The new Silver 10 drivers in the updated reference cabinets have been paired with the new TORII JR.ver2 for the past two weeks.  This is an incredible synergy let me tell ya.  Wow.  

Last week I had really good Tungsol Kt66s in it, and this week, some inexpensive NessTone EL34's for some contrast and damn, I don't know which actually sounds better because the sound of this amplifier on these particular speakers is so disarmingly good...

Well anyway, I have been really getting off on the combination and tonight just to really top things off I added the ZROCK2.  What this device does to the midrange tonality, overall weight and sparkle without ever even a hint of an edge is simply amazing, no magic!

This combination is the very definition of liquidity and intoxicating musicality.  It almost doesn't matter what you play, you just find yourself cheesing big time because it sounds so completely right and did I say complete?  When you have bass performance this low and with this much definition and tone you find yourself looking over your shoulder a lot because you feel like your doing something illegal.

So there you go, affordable dream system:  Lii Audio Reference Speakers delivered to your door for around 3K.  This particular amp around 2.5K, ZRock2 with mods around 1K and a Cambridge CXNv2 DAC/Streamer about 1K... preamp completely optional.

These speakers paired with these electronics is the definition of audio nirvana.  It leaves nothing.  You will have no subwoofer in the house. Interestingly, while a TORII JR.v2 is a lot more power than a Zen amp, I am not hearing any difference in power at my room filling listening levels.  It's just the wonderful tone and musical animation this amp seems to have now with the new bias and other mods.  But I could swap back in the 2.3 watt Zen Triodes and be just as happy. What can I say, the sound is just glorious.  It's so rich and deep and colorful and focused. You would think by now I would get used to it, but as you can see I obviously don't.

It always feels like the first time.

Interestingly I was going to start this post with the realization that when the sound is good, life is good.  I feel good, my mood is good, time slows down a bit.  But when sound is just OK, life seems to be just OK.   When I think about how much money and blood I've put into my '72 muscle car over 25 years and divide the hours by this kind of joy, the comparison is really bleak.  I should have spent that money on this -- a long time ago.

God I love this hobby, and because I can share it the pleasure is greatly multiplied!  There is no question at times like this that if presented with the unfortunate choice of losing you eyes or your hearing, I would have to keep my hearing.  My ears are my eyes.

Boy talk about getting sidetracked... the motivation for writing this was the ZROCK2 and the shear magic it brings to high resolution speakers.  It is the king of transparent tone.  Dripping liquidity.  Scale and weight.  Dimensionality and musicality.  I marvel at it now more than ever.  If I ever built this into an amplifier or preamplifier it would be so unfair.

Happy New Year!

Steve


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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #36 - 01/02/21 at 12:17:14
 
Hold on a minute, Steve. Are you implying that a ZROCK will fix the CXNv2 shortcomings?

Your enthusiasm as well as others on this forum is infectious! It makes me want to jump in the car and head west for a listen. Then east for another!  But, being stuck in the middle going no where is the reality at this time. Damn Covid19...this is not my vision of retirement.

John
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AMC CD8b>XO3>Cambridge CXN2>ZDAC>ZBOX>braided silver/occ> Zrock2>CSP2+>SE84 milflex copper 25th>9AWG silver/copper braid>lii Crystal 10 in Huijgen cabinets. Ortofon 2M Black>JVC QL-F4/Otari MX5050B2>ZP3. Isolation. AC filtering. Room treatment.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #37 - 01/02/21 at 13:57:07
 
Sounds great Steve. I also would love to transport over there and hear this setup!

Quote:
Interestingly I was going to start this post with the realization that when the sound is good, life is good.  I feel good, my mood is good, time slows down a bit.  But when sound is just OK, life seems to be just OK.


It is the same for me and sometimes a little scary how related the musical quality and life quality are for me. When things are a little off with a system change, around the edges of finding the beauty balance, but not there, I don't usually notice it until I solve it. Then I notice the contrast, the clarity and openness of mind lifting me out of an imbalance that is a little convoluted/confused...a little dull, thick, edgy. Lively balance in music is frequency medicine for sure to me.


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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #38 - 01/02/21 at 14:26:44
 
I go agree with the system and mood connection emphatically! I was in the middle of a capacitor order to upgrade the ZKIT1 for anniversary mods and went down to the Chariot to see if all would fit. That turned out good. Then doing a listing session to check if my choices of capacitors would bold well with the system, I moved some 1312s around and now listening to Holly Cole with lovely results. What a difference moving a couple of diffusers make. I'm in a very upbeat mood now and can't wait for the capacitors to arrive.
Oh! Thanks Will for your great interpretations of sonic differences in capacitors.
John
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #39 - 01/02/21 at 17:21:30
 
Quote:
Oh! Thanks Will for your great interpretations of sonic differences in capacitors.


You are welcome John. Mind you, I have not gone all the way up the cost ladders with some companies, or even tried some of the more costly companies. Luckily, I find you can get the good idea of a cap with bypasses, so less costly to test, and low value caps can awaken further interest (or not) in most cases for me. As examples, I stopped at Mundorf Supreme Silver/oils, Silver Gold EVOs, and Supreme EVO Oils, Clarity MAs, Rike S2, Audyn True Copper max...Duelund I have tried Jam, Tinned-Copper and Silver bypasses, and just now burning in on my Frybaby 2 are less costly .022 JDM Tinned-Copper that I will try in the Torii signal path. Overall, using a revealing, but warmish, dense, and big sounding Torii MKIV, CSP3, and HR1 system, I have not been as impressed with Duelund as I expected. They do a lot right, but when it is as powerfully stated as these tend to be, to me, they dominate the sound with their character, which is so worked out intellectually they seem a little contrived...too right, not like a "no cap" sense I get more from Miflex Copper Oils. But this is a limited sampling, mostly using them in signal paths...and I hear from a friend with good ears that they are great in mid crossovers, where I have done limited experiments with Duelunds. Some day. Guessing they might be much better in systems that need more density and musically resolving warmth. Others on the Frybaby just now are Jantzen Alumin Zs, and Arizona Cactus Reds. I have not tried any V-Caps, though I keep putting some .01 Odams in my cart to try as coupling caps and probably power cap bypasses. There are more... but I wanted to be clear that when I talk about my cap impressions, they are not based on all-inclusive testing.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #40 - 01/03/21 at 17:31:50
 
For a DIY build, are there dimensions (schematic) for this cabinet on Lii's website?
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #41 - 01/03/21 at 17:36:30
 
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #42 - 01/03/21 at 22:26:43
 
Thank you Donnie. I am considering building this cabinet against building a sealed enclosure for the Lii 15. Sonic differences, etc...
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #43 - 01/03/21 at 22:47:27
 
You must have some mad woodworking skills!  Those bends look really hard to do.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #44 - 01/03/21 at 22:51:28
 
Well, I might be able to pull it off, but it would be a challenge. That is another reason I am considering the Lii 15 cabinet instead, for ease of build. Just wondering about the sonics of a Lii 15 with enclosed cabinet. I can only find info on the Lii 15 open baffle.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #45 - 01/03/21 at 23:09:30
 
If a cabinet can improve on the F15 OB then that would be worth having.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #46 - 01/04/21 at 17:52:40
 
Steve, I am very interested in these speakers. Is there any way you could do a bit of a review using a SE34I.5?

I would love to here your thoughts on 6 watts per channel vs the lower and higher rated output amps you have tested!

Thanks!!!
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #47 - 01/04/21 at 18:18:42
 

I can tell you that at the full bodied listening levels I've tested them at I hear no difference between the 2.3 watt and the 20 watt TORII, so anything in-between will fall into the same category.  You'll only hear the basic signature of the tubes and amplifier itself change from one to another.  

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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #48 - 01/04/21 at 18:33:25
 
Thanks for the quick response Steve!

That makes sense. I feel I'm at a cross roads with my setup now. Do I carry on with my Altec 605B's or move them along and go for the Silver 10's in those beautiful cabinets!

The other thing I was thinking was trying the F-15 in the Altec 620 9 cubic foot cabinet?

I'm open to suggestions!
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #49 - 01/05/21 at 04:09:17
 
F-15 in your already existing Altec 620 cabinets is only a $400 trial.
That seems like a good plan to me. So far as suggestions go.

Do you like the sound of these cabinets? Do they have an annoying echo or other flaw?  If it is only a question of size, I think 9 feet is enough internal volume for this speaker.

That is not based on math, only on it seeming big enough.

Probably not the most useful answer, but if I had the money for the experiment, that is what I would try.


Best wishes, Brian
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #50 - 01/09/21 at 04:04:42
 



As I spend more time with these improved Lii Audio Reference Silver 10 speakers on the long wall of my listening room I am experiencing some interesting things...

Probably the most notable is that they keep sounding better as the weeks tick by.  No surprise there, but actually that is something I never get used to.  It always seems amazing to me each time and probably always will.

Secondly, I am finding myself developing a trust that I haven't had before with a speaker with the possible exception of my corner horns.  The trust is coming from I guess the simple fact that they keep making everything else sound less by comparison.  The other night I even did a comparison with the corner horns, a 30+ year reference for me, and they sounded inferior.  Didn't see that one coming.

The tonality of the midrange is just so juicy, and let's be honest, juicy is not the first thing that comes to mind when describing hyper sensitive full-range crossoverless drivers.  The bass is the best I've ever heard from a moving coil speaker with the exception of the Imperial Horns.  But that's not actually true, because the Imperials use a 15 inch driver that in most cases is not as fast as the 10 inch Lii Audio Silver Reference.  

The efficiency of these is making it meaningless to go from the TORII JRv2, to an SE84UFO, to an SE34I.5 to a ZMA, etc., because you hear no difference.  The dynamics are the same as is the weight as is the volume.  Sure you could crank the larger amps up louder but you'll be well into the knee point of the listening room so the sound will only get worse.

When I listen to master tapes it is always on headphones, usually closed back at first and then a more relaxed pair of LCD2's.  To get a similar reference from speakers in a listening room is exponentially more unlikely to happen for about a million reasons, but surface it to say you get your best of the best set up the best you can and go for it.  I have been finding that these Lii Audio speakers are closer to the headphone reference than any other single driver speaker so far and the big reason is the extended response in both the treble and the bass and the fact that it is a single driver with no crossover like a headphone.  These speakers are like headphones for your room.

The treble is wonderful.  It's in ribbon tweeter category. Almost the best part maybe. The bass is lower than shit and can easily turn your room into a disco tech with only two watts if that's what's on the recording, or reproduce a cathedral pipe organ's giant pipes with absolutely convincing reality. Which means there is no music it can't faithfully and completely reproduce on both ends.

And perhaps that's the magic behind the midrange -- framing it at both ends like that just makes it into ear candy on a Decware amplifier.  It's so good I had to get out the FRX2 drivers the other night in the ZOB open baffle cabinets, which certainly isn't a fair fight since the Zen Open Baffle rolls off an octave higher.  But it was the midrange I had to hear so I set up an AB test between them and the FRX were faster sounding and the ZOB/FRX combo imaged better, it was very satisfying but without the bottom octave just wasn't a fair fight.  Over time the ZOB started to sound thin compared to the lii.  The midrange of the Lii sounded more organic.

It actually makes me want to hear the FRX2 in the Lii Audio Reference cabinet.  Maybe some day.

These speakers are wrecking me.  I am hearing sound that is better in the room than ever before with any speaker combination except perhaps the Imperial SO's paired with the ZOB/FRX2. And that is with non-anniversary gear.  I haven't even heard these with the SE84UFO25 yet.  Saving that one for one of those nights when I need a really good buzz.

Steve


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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #51 - 01/09/21 at 05:51:30
 
As a followup to the original cabinets without the internal bracing and damping and the crystal 10 drivers this new version is in a completely different league.  Congratulations to Lii Audio for a job well done.  A job that I recognize as only achievable through genuine passion for audio vs. passion for profit.

Steve
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #52 - 01/09/21 at 13:21:56
 
Quote:
It actually makes me want to hear the FRX2 in the Lii Audio Reference cabinet.  Maybe some day.


If you do, might as well try the silvers in ZOB. I would be interested on your take of that combo.

John
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #53 - 01/09/21 at 15:13:05
 
I now have speaker envy.

My list of items that I envy keeps getting longer and my time left on earth keeps getting shorter.

There must be a balance somewhere!
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #54 - 01/10/21 at 12:02:21
 
How about an upscale DNA with the silvers Donnie?
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #55 - 01/11/21 at 01:22:33
 

JBzen said:
"might as well try the silvers in ZOB. I would be interested on your take of that combo."

I would like to hear Silver 8 in the NFX speaker. Or read a review of it.

Brian
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #56 - 01/11/21 at 11:31:09
 
Silver 10's have a lower FS and smoother high end response than the 8's. The size and frame differences of the two dictate the responses. Why Lii used different frame designs on the brothers is baffling.
John
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #57 - 02/07/21 at 08:52:42
 
Tempted. If you buy the drivers alone, you’re a good chunk of the way toward the cost with that beautiful cabinet.  Currently listening to Silver 8’s in Foster BK-20 folded horn DIY flat pack. (Driver slightly to big for opening...two minute fix with 1/8” rabbet bit).
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #58 - 02/07/21 at 21:24:28
 
How do you like the Silver 8's in the folded horns?  How do they compare to other speakers you have owned?
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #59 - 02/08/21 at 00:50:08
 
Hi esewell. Just posted a reiview. I love them!  Haven’t listened to my jbl4367s for some time. Maybe hook them back up in a week for comparison to these.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #60 - 11/01/21 at 19:46:09
 
I bought a pair two weeks ago.  I am having a local speaker builder make me a pair of Liionidas Open Baffle speakers using plans Lii provides.  The baffles are built and the speakers are installed.  My builder tells me they sound nice but the Silver-10s have a 9db dropout between 5khz and 7khz.

Anyone else measure this?  He said it's both drivers and he feels it's because of the whizzer cone.  I'm wondering now how they'll sound.  I have almost $3k sunk into this build.

Thanks.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #61 - 11/01/21 at 19:52:42
 
Do you have the details on how he is measuring them?
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #62 - 11/01/21 at 20:25:01
 
I'm not sure but will ask.  It was in an anechoic chamber he built.  He uses that to spec out the crossovers.

He told me he didn't think I would hear it but that sounds like a big dip to me.  The 12" Lii woofers measured pretty flat until the point they'd natural be crossed over.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #63 - 11/04/21 at 18:36:53
 
I don't know why the Silver performed so well for Steve, but my builder basically described the Liionidas (Lii Audio open baffle build listed on their website) as awful.  Here are his quotes:

"Mids (vocals, guitar) are good but missing some detail.  This is due to a 10" driver trying to move as fast as a smaller midrange dome.  This is called transient response or driver reflex quickness.  Highs are a bit lacking due to the dip in response at 5-7KHz which is a critical area for crisp highs."

Maybe they're just not great in an open baffle.  I bought a pair of 8" Silvers as well.  Funny enough they sound way better in free air than in a box.

Uggh, good money wasted.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #64 - 11/04/21 at 18:55:55
 
Do you mean Steve's in the barrel baffle?  As I recall he said they needed a ZROCK2 to work properly.  The specs of the 10" Silver Reference drivers don't lend themselves to open baffle use.  I asked about using them early on in Steve's Big Betsy design thread.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #65 - 11/04/21 at 19:07:33
 
Thank you.  I'm getting the impression they're not great in an open baffle.  Yet, Lii audio sells this exact build.  You buy the speaker frame from them ($2600) and the 10" and 15" drivers.  I just had a local guy build it instead of buying it from them.  From Steve's description it sounds like we're talking about two different drivers:

The treble is wonderful.  It's in ribbon tweeter category. Almost the best part maybe. The bass is lower than shit and can easily turn your room into a disco tech with only two watts if that's what's on the recording, or reproduce a cathedral pipe organ's giant pipes with absolutely convincing reality. Which means there is no music it can't faithfully and completely reproduce on both ends.

That's not what we're hearing or how the silver measures. but I know Steve's not wrong either.


The frequency response of the Silver, as I described before is terrible, IMHO.  Down nearly 8db between 5-7khz.  My builder wants to convert it to a 3-way.  I'm more inclined to try and find a 10" driver that will work better.  I need to research or at least ask for suggestions on that.  I can't afford to just buy $1200 drivers and have them not work.  Fortunately, I have many pairs of speakers.  I just wanted to try something different.

Thanks again.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #66 - 11/04/21 at 19:42:46
 
p.s. thanks again for the Zrock suggestion but the design is not bass shy.  The 10" is down 8db from 5-7khz.  If anything it needs a boost.  I need to rethink the whole build.   Sad
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #67 - 11/04/21 at 19:47:15
 
are you disappointed because of the way the speakers sound to you or because your friend told you they were down in response in the 5 -7K area?
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #68 - 11/04/21 at 19:53:11
 
I haven't heard them yet.  He said they don't sound great.  Obviously I can't say for sure until I hear them but he's been building speakers (for a living) for more than 20 years.  His exact quotes don't sound promising

Bass is great though missing the deepest octave as open baffles will do.
Mids (vocals, guitar) are good but missing some detail.  This is due to a 10" driver trying to move as fast as a smaller mid-range dome.  This is called transient response or driver reflex quickness.

Like I said, it doesn't sound like anything that I will be able to use in my main system as is, especially because I've got really good commercial speakers in house now.

Highs are a bit lacking due to the dip in response at 5-7KHz which is a critical area for crisp highs.  "Whizzer" cones do their best a reproducing highs, but nothing beats a fast silk dome or ribbon for pure speed.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #69 - 11/04/21 at 19:54:27
 
I don't have the Silvers, but have been using the Crystals for several years now, and could not be happier.

The Crystal 10's are in their own baffles, and are paired with W-15's in their own baffles. The Crystal's are powered by the Super Zen and the bass drivers are driven by a separate subwoofer amp w/ crossover and volume settings.

It's golden for me...

There is a fairly significant break in period for both drivers.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #70 - 11/04/21 at 20:09:54
 
Did your builder,use the crossover that comes with that setup from Lii audio? I have that speaker set from Lii and its way better than good.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #71 - 11/04/21 at 22:48:41
 
No.  He built his own after measuring the drives in an anechoic chamber.  He's been building crossovers he designs from scratch using a computer program for many years.  I have the Lii xovers.  They were kind enough to send them to me when I bought the drivers.  I can try those too.

I have to believe the main issue is the extreme frequency imbalance of the Silver 10.  If there's a large suck-out at 5k I don't know how any crossover compensates.  I am certainly open to suggestions.  I've got $2500 in this so far.

Thanks for the reply.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #72 - 11/05/21 at 00:11:53
 
ih,

Why don’t you post the results of your speaker builders measurements on the Lii Audio Facebook page. Leon and some of the other guys on there should have responses for you. They are sticklers for measurements, and Leon’s tests resulted in his crossover set up. They will have an answer for you.

Geno
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #73 - 11/05/21 at 00:28:12
 
I'll get pictures and post them.  Maybe they have some ideas.  Thanks for the idea.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #74 - 11/05/21 at 03:03:16
 
I received a pair of Silver10’s in the Reference cabinets and I would agree with Steve, having owned a pair of Magnepan 3.7’s the high end is on par with the Maggie’s. At first I thought the speakers sounded pretty flat, so I bought a pair of super tweeters to see if they would extend the highs. One night I was playing with the output on the tweeters and didn’t realize I turn the darn things off. After more listening I’m thinking I absolutely love the midrange of these speakers, and yes- that’s after owning Magnepan’s, and I’m really liking what the super tweeters are doing for the top end, I could be very happy with this setup. Then- I went to adjust the tweeters again just to see if I could fine tune it some more and realized the things were turned off. After laughing my ass off I realized I’m going to make my pocket book very happy by getting a refund on these tweeters. This is my first single driver speaker, and all I can say is I’m glad I found them. Currently I’m running them with a 25th ZMA and no ZRock, and I’m loving it.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #75 - 11/05/21 at 03:13:18
 
I'm going to get freshly calibrated response measurements tomorrow that I will post.  Both drivers measured nearly identical.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #76 - 11/05/21 at 15:49:00
 
Here's the measurement on the Silver 10. The Silver-10 was removed from the crossover and directly measured by itself in the baffle. Both drivers were virtually identical.  Not good.  Someone mentioned posting this on Leon's Facebook page.  If I can find it I will.  I'm wondering if this is just a bad batch of drivers.  I'm not here to argue but I can't see how this can possibly sound good in anyone's build with this frequency response.  I'd love some insights from people on this forum that I know are way more knowledgeable about this stuff than I am.

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Silver-10_LMS_Testing_2.jpg

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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #77 - 11/05/21 at 17:08:49
 
ih,

Post it here, and ask very specific questions, and give details about your setup.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1027619577444972
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #78 - 11/05/21 at 17:20:46
 
I have a similar setup to Geno's and these speakers have been my go to for the last two years.  Prior to that I changed speakers or speaker configurations about every two months.  I did add a upfiring tweeter to the mix in the last 6 months but other than that, its remained unchanged.

Sorry if I missed it but are your drivers broken in?  Took a long time with mine.

Edit: I have also measured these drivers (in baffle) multiple times and don't recall a dip in that region.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #79 - 11/05/21 at 17:33:10
 
I'm confused by that whole plot.  That's for a "full range driver?"  It looks terrible in so many critical areas that I'd suspect the measurements are way off.  Or the application is faulty.  Or I'm just too ignorant to understand it.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #80 - 11/05/21 at 17:44:37
 
Yes, for a full-range driver.

I would very seriously doubt the measurements are off.  The guy is an electrical engineer.  He builds speakers for a living. He's been doing it for many years. When I went to see him two weeks ago to drop off the drivers he was working on a pair of Tannoy Westminsters for a friend of mine.   He has a 3000sq ft shop with his own anechoic chamber.

He said the driver sounds like it measures.  Here's his e-mail verbatim:

Attached are photos of my LMS System measurements of the Silver-10 driver in a semi-anechoic chamber.

The Silver-10 was removed from my crossover and directly measured by itself in the baffle.

- The LMS System had both Internal and External Calibrations performed just before testing.
- Tests were made with a calibrated microphone at 1-meter / 2.83V input.
- Both normal and gated responses were taken and found to be identical above 1KHz.
  (purple curve is normal output, cyan curve is gated output)
- These are "raw" measurements with no smoothing or any other filtering applied.

Sensitivity agrees with documented value at around 98db.
But you can clearly see the dropout between 5.7KHz and 6.7KHz.
And the response climbs (and squeeks) above 8KHz before giving up.
So the response is +/- 8db from 1KHz to 13KHz.

Also, it is physically impossible for a 10" full-range driver to play much higher than 12KHz.
That's just audio physics and you can clearly see the response dives down to the noise floor above that range.
The top end of this driver is 13KHz.  But thankfully, we can't hear freqs. much above that.

There's also a large dropout at about 950Hz, but I had the 15" woofer and my EDC crossover take care of this.

I have measured many "whizzer cone" full-range drivers and this response is typical and expected.
I welcome an independent audio lab to confirm my measurements.

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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #81 - 11/05/21 at 18:08:24
 
Hmmm.  I'm a complete rookie when it comes to measuring but I don't show that dip in my chart.  If anything, I have a dip between 6-7K.  And my roll off is around 14K, not 12K.  These are Crystal 10s though.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #82 - 11/05/21 at 18:24:44
 
My guy said the same thing re the Crystals.  He said to me yesterday:

1) "You do realize the Liionidas build was using the Crystals?"  I did not.

2) "There is a freq response curve for the Crystals on the Lii website.  It is much flatter than the Silver measured."  I didn't know that either.

I just figured since Steve (and others) liked the Silver I should use the best Lii driver in the build.  I'm going to see if Lii will switch them for me.  I signed up for the Facebook group but I have to wait to be approved.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #83 - 11/05/21 at 19:18:12
 
I did hear the Silvers at Decfest and liked them, but not enough to consider upgrading.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #84 - 11/06/21 at 00:39:04
 
The Silvers are the new and improved "flagship" too.  Lii's curves don't look anything like what your guy got but I certainly never measured my F15s.  I'm pretty sure I don't hear above 13 to 14 kHz so no problem for me there but I'm pretty sure I'd hear so many and such big dropouts if my F15s were far off of Lii's curves.  All I'm trying to say is that I have a certain amount of trust in Lii's measurements so maybe your Silver drivers are defective?
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #85 - 11/06/21 at 00:44:18
 
I'm thinking they could be defective as well.  I posed the question on the Lii Facebook board.  I know I don't hear above 13khz.  He tested me when I was in his shop.  Even hearing 13khz was a stretch for me.  I guess this is normal for middle aged people.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #86 - 11/21/21 at 01:39:45
 
It did take at least 50 hrs for mine to get to the point that they really started to sound good. Before that they sounded pretty flat, and I was thinking I made a big mistake.  I've found they do need to be set up correctly to get them to sound their best, especially for the top end to shine. Although they aren't the most fussy speaker I've ever had, they are at their best when a little time is taken to get them in the right position. This is the first pair of single driver speakers that I've ever owned and I am very impressed with them. These are by far the best speakers that I've owned. They are the most coherent from top to bottom, throw an enormous soundstage, and are the most transparent of anything I've heard. They produce a lot of detail that I've never heard before. They have absolutely no issues filling my 18 X 36 room with beautiful music. Just wish I could put them on the long wall, but they still impress being where they are.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #87 - 11/21/21 at 03:19:00
 

Quote:
I have measured many "whizzer cone" full-range drivers and this response is typical and expected.
I welcome an independent audio lab to confirm my measurements.


expected is a dangerous possibility.

The Crystal 10 is flatter.  The Silver has a presence peak.  I will do some gated measurements in my room and see if we see the same result.

Steve

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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #88 - 11/22/21 at 01:09:04
 

I measured both the Crystal 10 and the Silver 10 this evening.  Here are the results:

CRYSTAL 10



SILVER 10




It's been my experience that when you have sharp dips AKA missing response, it's not because the driver has decided that on those notes that it's just not going to play anything... rather it is a measurement anomaly usually with microphone / speaker placement.  We know that sound is coming out of the driver at these frequencies and at the same basic loudness.  To test this you can simply dial your frequency generator into the frequency of the dip and according to those measurements you should hear almost nothing.

Even if those giant dips were there, you wouldn't hear them anyway because the reality is that the gaps are smoothed out during music playback. Even if the dips were a symptom of phasing... the only way to get a clean dip would then be to play a clean sign wave at that frequency.  With music being many frequencies any subsequent phasing issues are going to be drastically different than when playing a single sine wave.  

More people ruin the hobby for themselves by getting sucked into the rabbit hole of specifications and measurements without the experience to bridge the gaps and discrepancies between what we hear and what we measure.  Without that, the measurements are counter productive.  Also, doing measurements correctly is less likely to occur than doing them incorrectly, so you have misinformation multiple levels deep.

Getting wound up over the frequency response of your loudspeaker is almost ridiculous without first measuring the listening room and taking necessary steps to correct the response of that.  Picture the worse frequency response you've ever seen posted for a speaker... an untreated room, especially a smaller one, is guaranteed to be twice as bad...  a good analogy would be perfectly flat speaker response is like a shiny new boat that because of it's specs will surely go effortlessly fast over the water.  An average room in your home used for speakers is like at least 2 large holes in the bottom of the boat.  The shiny new boat didn't perform any better than the dirty old boat because they both have large holes in the bottom.

Steve

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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #89 - 11/22/21 at 02:31:23
 
I’m so glad that you did these measurements Steve. And your explanation of the results sums it up nicely.

Thanks,

Geno

*Edit*  Steve, I hope you don't mind, but I copied and pasted the measurements and your explanation on the Lii Audio Facebook page. There was quite a bit of back and forth about this, and I wanted the "measurement" folks to see your explanation.

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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #90 - 05/04/22 at 13:23:59
 
Geno, I know this is an older thread, but wondering if you ever resolved this issue.  Do you still have the Silver 10s in an OB?  Have you measured them in your listening room.   If so, how do they measure and sound?   Any modifications or adjustments to improve them?  Thanks.
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #91 - 05/04/22 at 14:41:51
 
Quote:
Getting wound up over the frequency response of your loudspeaker is almost ridiculous without first measuring the listening room and taking necessary steps to correct the response of that. 


The sentence above brings to mind the old adage "Does a bear shit in the woods."

I use to measure speakers, build a box, and crossover the two or three drivers. Never heard a finished one that wowed me and that includes others built by accomplished builders. Moved to single full range drivers and never looked back. Haven't touched any measuring equipment since except to measure my room for treatment purpose.

John
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #92 - 05/04/22 at 16:23:52
 
John-

In your speaker building adventures, from whom have you purchased your full-range drivers?  

I have been considering building my own speakers from the kits offered by CSS audio - but they are not single driver speakers.

While CSS audio certainly makes the process much more user friendly, I wonder if a driver from Lii audio and a cabinet flat pack/cabinet design from elsewhere might make more sense for a Decware amp.

* I too have a  largely untreated room......... unless you count couch, chairs, and rugs over hardwood.......and room treatments will not ever be wife approved*

Andrew
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Re: New Reference speaker from Lii Audio !!!
Reply #93 - 05/05/22 at 10:06:48
 
Hi Andrew,

I've built these http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/jordan-vtl/ as my first full range speakers. They are very musical. Used them for 20 years as the main audio speakers before utilizing as rear surrounds in the HT system.
Currently using Lii's 10 inch Crystals in these cabinets https://i.ibb.co/PrY2Ry7/20220505-045258.jpg
I am in the process of downsizing to Lii's 8 inch Silvers in Steve's HDT cabinets.

John
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