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Cable selection (Read 3741 times)
rockrubber1
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Cable selection
10/31/20 at 17:02:01
 
I have a cable selection question about Decware interconnects, whether to purchase with gold or silver ends.
I just ordered a Torii Jr, Zrock and ZSB switch, all with the standard gold jacks and anniversary mods.
Is it best to order the Decware Audiophile grade interconnects with gold connectors or is it ok to move up to the silver reference with the silver connectors? I'd really appreciate your insight.
Mike
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DPC
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Re: Cable selection
Reply #1 - 10/31/20 at 17:57:23
 
Hey Mike,

I'm by far no expert on this issue.  That said, I do have both of the Decware ic types and the silver speaker wires and am very pleased  with all of them.

I'm quite sure you will get some better advise from others.  
Good luck and congrats on the new equipment.

Dennis
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Archie
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Re: Cable selection
Reply #2 - 10/31/20 at 18:09:44
 
I have all Decware silver interconnects which I like but be aware, the ends are plated at best.  I'm not even sure the plating is silver.  True silver connectors are very expensive.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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canonken
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Posts: 151
Re: Cable selection
Reply #3 - 10/31/20 at 19:36:05
 
If I am not mistaken, even if silver plating on the connectors, this is a 'better' mode for signal transfer.  I've also been told (by a fancy brand that sells a lot of silver cable) the black oxidation is actually GOOD as it is conductive and only improves the connection.  They said don't clean it (from the areas it touches other metal).

Said another way, silver plating is fine, and I would trust was Steve, the RCA plug designers did.  Solid silver might not even be good mechanically and it needs to be plated over another metal.
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Archie
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Re: Cable selection
Reply #4 - 10/31/20 at 20:58:10
 
Quote:
I've also been told (by a fancy brand that sells a lot of silver cable) the black oxidation is actually GOOD as it is conductive and only improves the connection.  They said don't clean it (from the areas it touches other metal).


A year or so ago we discussed this idea on the Forum.  https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1554416974/128#128  One very knowledgeable member pointed out that the black that forms on the silver isn't actually the highly conductive silver oxide but rather, silver sulfide, which is not a great conductor.  I remember researching a bit and found that he was correct.

The point about silver plating being better than not is mostly likely correct.  I've often wondered at the hype of rhodium plating given that it's conductivity isn't very good relative to copper, silver and other metals.

Here is something a quick Internet search turned up:  (It seems to be perpetuating the "myth" about the "silver oxide" though.)

Quote:
Gold plated, silver plated or pure copper wire end terminals?
Gold is a lesser conductor than copper, by 40%. So, gold plated copper is no better, electrically, than pure copper.  Still, there are gold plated pure copper cable end terminals, which are in turn worse than silver plated cable end terminals. Since the un-plated pure copper terminals oxidize over time, gold plated terminals will sooner or later be superior, since they do not oxidize. However, silver plated cable end terminals are the best choice, because they keep their superior conductivity even when oxidized.

Rhodium plated plugs?
Rhodium is a precious metal from the platinum family. It is hard, acid-resistant, and has a very high melting point (1964°C). Compared to other platinum metals, it is a very good conductor, but still only half as good as gold and just one third as good as silver. Therefore, it is misplaced as a coating in a domestic environment. Its sound characteristics are often described as harsh and analytic. It does however have its justification in industrial environments with high temperatures, for instance near blast furnaces, where it reliably does its job at temperatures where gold would already start to melt (which it does at 1064°C).

Nickel plated or “naked” brass?
Standard brass (40% zinc, 60% copper, CuSn40) is about as good a conductor as nickel, as long as it is not oxidized.  With oxide layer, it conducts worse. However, the sound is “smoother” without nickel – therefore, naked brass plugs have a justification, as long as the listener is prepared to clean them regularly. The necessity to do so can be removed by silver or gold plating.
Plugs from phosphorus bronze?
Phosphorus bronze is a quite hard material and is held in high esteem for its tonal virtues when used for church bells.  However, it is a lousy conductor. Nevertheless, there are now Japanese plugs in the market, which are made from phosphorus bronze, and bear price tags that were unseen before. I have not tried any of these yet, but am quite skeptical based on the aforementioned reasons.

Plugs from beryllium copper?
Beryllium is a highly toxic element. Beryllium copper is a (non-toxic) copper alloy, just as brass or bronze, and is the best conductor among the copper alloys. However, it is still much worse than copper itself. It has remarkable qualities for tools, and because of its springiness it is being user for the balance springs in mechanical watches. Because of this property, it is also a very fine material for banana and BFA plugs, where the quality of the contact depends on how tight the plug will sit in its socket. However, it is misplaced in mains plugs, where we have massive pins, and where the material cannot draw on its elastic properties at all.  If looking for a material with better conductivity than brass,  pure copper or silver would be the material of choice here – the two are not only better, but also cheaper, and non-toxic in the production process on top of that.

Solder or crimp?
Copper’s conductivity is six times higher than tin’s! Fine solder typically consists of more than 60% tin. Thus, a gas-free crimp connection is always preferable to a solder connection.


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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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GroovySauce
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Posts: 815
Re: Cable selection
Reply #5 - 10/31/20 at 21:14:40
 
I've heard, and it seems to make sense, If you have silver RCA jacks use a silver RCA connectors. If you have gold plated RCA jacks use gold plated connectors.

I haven't tested this to see if it does make a difference or not.
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Maximus NEO TT|ViV Rigid Float TA | Phasemation PP-200 or Hana ML | Sutherland Little Loco MK2 | Innuos ZENith MK3 | LampizatOr GA TRP | EMIA Remote Autoformer | STL "Super Tube Rectifier" STR-1002 | SRA Cables | PAP Quintet 15 1.6 Voxativ |Torus AVR15
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canonken
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Posts: 151
Re: Cable selection
Reply #6 - 10/31/20 at 21:22:19
 
Archie - I have nothing to gain by defending my silver comment (on the oxidization).  But thinking more, I recall them saying it 'helped' because it filled on some of the microscopic gaps between the cable and terminal - and you were worse off cleaning than leaving it be (basically, cleaning, polishing, etc. was not going to help you).  Again, maybe bogus, but for the record  I don't recall them saying for sure it was 'better'.  So with that, I guess asking another way - would you be better off polishing the silver or leaving it alone and doing its own thing.
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Archie
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Re: Cable selection
Reply #7 - 10/31/20 at 22:34:07
 
I've never considered that argument about gap filling.  I was just commenting on the silver oxide is a better conductor question since this has come up before.  I eventually terminated my solid silver speaker wires with solid copper bananas but before that I never bothered cleaning the wires.  I sort of figured that in a tight connection, oxidation wasn't much of an issue.  I'm probably wrong about that.

What surprised me was that while everyone points out that silver oxide is a great conductor, what is actually on the silver is silver sulfide.  I doubt .01% of people who care about wire materials even know this.

My comments are only intended to add to the conversation, not to attack (or defend).
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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canonken
Seasoned Member
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Posts: 151
Re: Cable selection
Reply #8 - 10/31/20 at 23:08:45
 
Archie - in no way did I think you were attacking anything!  Actually the opposite, it was helpful to see some real info vs. what I heard from this company directly (which was not told to me as marketing, but more business-related).

I don't have a horse in this race, and would be more than happy to have everything I said disproven.

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Archie
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Re: Cable selection
Reply #9 - 11/01/20 at 00:14:34
 
Wink  No worries, I didn't think you were.  
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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rockrubber1
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Posts: 17
Re: Cable selection
Reply #10 - 11/01/20 at 06:57:15
 
Gentlemen I appreciate your responses
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will
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Posts: 2919
Re: Cable selection
Reply #11 - 11/03/20 at 03:11:07
 
I have almost always used higher quality silver IC connectors whether the component had gold plated RCAs or silver plated. I have tried IC ends of pure silver, silver alloys, gold plated copper, silver plated copper and rhodium plated copper. And though I keep liking the overall resolution of pure silver, and also well done highly conductive silver alloys, there are also connectors I liked a lot with Rhodium or gold plate also, both of the latter considered poor to relatively poor conductors.

The variety of electronic conductivity that measurements of various metals imply would seem to be plainly audible in a negative sonic way, but to me they are not (necessarily). The measured differences seem much more extreme that the differences I hear, at least when using good metals and designs. To me, all decent connectors made with relatively pure metals seem to work.

But working on refining cables for many years, for more ultimate sound refinements, then everything matters....low mass versus high mass, different metals and purities, hardness and purities of the base metal and plate, associated materials used for the barrels, solder used, damping materials and application.... these and more can take us many places when getting into the subtleties of tone, resolution and speed.... and this is not even getting into the wires and all else that makes a cable.

As an example, not an IC end, but when I changed my stock gold plated binding posts on my Torii to an also heavily made Cardas copper post that was plated with silver and a "Rhodium Flash," my system was quite notably improved for me and my wife, perhaps the biggest single improvement (at that time) after many months of progressive modifications. After putting on some music, she said, wow, what did you do, "that was a big change for subtle clarity, textures, and dynamics." And I agreed. Yet Rhodium is said to be a very poor conductor.

I can only talk about what I have experienced, but I have never paid attention to matching metals between connectors, and gotten great results with cable improvements. I can see how matching could be good with very pure materials, but in fact, most RCAs and binding posts are not silver or gold...they are plated, some with good metals underneath, and many with some pretty sorry alloys for sound underneath.

Regardless, changing to cables that I enjoyed the sound improvements from.... my favorite of these have most often had some form of pure silver for the IC ends. And no matter if connecting to gold plated or silver plated RCAs, the sonic improvements from a nice cable, potentially truly awakening, are the primary take-aways for me.

As to cleaning silver....I don't have to do it much, but if it starts to yellow, then the sulfurization has begun, and as mentioned silver sulfide is known to create a conductivity degradation. I have found that cleaner/coatings  like Cardas and some graphene "cleaners" do improve the sound, presumably in part from filling the fine pits in the metal with good conductor materials, and from creating greater contact. I used to use Deoxit gold for years, which to me was good, but only if you polished it off pretty fast. If I let it sit too long it actually dulled the sound for me. But with a fast polishing it sounded better to have cleaned and treated the metal with it.

For an easy to use cleaner and conditioner that I think sounds good, Cardas seems to work easily while improving the sound, and seemingly reducing the chances of sulfur working into silver as quickly. I like it on any connector, it is just that it appears to protect silver some too.

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