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Yeah, BangyBang is fairly infamous for, shall we say, not being a bargain.

BangyBang is a disreputable outfit. They offer common tubes with gold pins, undoubtedly plated recently. They are worthy of your disdain or outright hatred.

Another bunch worthy of sidestepping is ebay seller greengirl613. Ridiculously high prices for common tubes, insulting descriptions, i.e., a “stereo tube.” I exclude them from most of my searches.

Great. 12AU7 for 6DJ8 isn't something that ever occurred to me. So in addition to 6SN7 and 5670 types (including some Russian 6N3Ps) now I have to roll 12AU7s? Thanks Lon .

P.S I don't know how far down the 6SN7 rabbit hole you want to go, but there are several other alternatives that are adaptable:7N7, 6F8G and my personal favorite, using two single triodes like the 6J5, 6C5 or Types 37 and 76.

I agree with Lon. I've sold most all my input tubes, save for a couple Amperex 7308's and two large handfuls of Russian tubes [Late 1950's Novosibirsk 6N1P, mid 1970's Voshkod 6N23P].

I've stocked up on 6SN7GT:
RCA VT-231 [WWII vintage, smoked glass] & early 1950's clear glass.
Raytheon VT-231.
National Union [black glass].

I had 2 handfuls of Sylvania, but have sold them. The RCA in my system and to my ears kicks the crap out of Sylvania; the RCA overall tone is just about perfection, and frequency range is rendered so evenly. RCA wins out #1 without question. The mids in particular are the best audio heaven I've ever heard. The creme de la creme is the RCA smoked glass [1940's, early 1950's].

The Raytheon flavor is a bit more open with a bit more sense of air.

I really enjoy the change of pace between the RCA and the Raytheon!

Haven't tried out the National Union yet.

This is all with the tube complement of Steve's Russian driver tubes and an Eveready-Raytheon ER 280/80 globe in the preamp and a Mullard GZ34 Fat Base [1958] in the amp.

Looking at the ZMA tube socket layout, it looks like there might be enough room for 6SN7s if you are running EL34 straight bottle output tubes.

The GT-style 6SN7 is about the same diameter as a GT-style EL34.
The 6SN7 > 6922 adapters that use the octal bases are sometimes a bit bigger, they often use the large octal socket to construct the adapter.
The metal base adapters are a bit smaller.

Just to add confusion, there are ST-shape and GT-style 6SN7s and EL34s and fat octal bases ( larger than standard )
GTs are the straight bottle shape.

Yes the CV181 are ST as are the Sophia 6SN7s, PSVANE also has an ST 6SN7 along with a CV181.

On Ebay, seller garage1217 sells the smallest diameter 6SN7 > 6922 adapter that I have found. Though I do not see them listed at this time.

It is a naked ceramic socket on a round circuit board.
The diameter is just 1 3/16" .

I use one to roll 6SN7s in my SE84UFO25.

I measured some of the base diameters on my stash of various 6SN7 types and measured the following base diameters.

1 3/16" - 1 1/4" - 1 5/16"

The new production Tungsol 6SN7 will fit in the ZMA with KT66. As for heat issues I don't know, tomorrow I'll put in the 6SN7 and see how it goes.

The Garage1217 adapters are really well made. Be careful with them as they can short to the chassis as the solder points are on the bottom. If you used a 6922 socket saver between the adapter and the amp you are fine. You can also just pull the adapter out of the amp just a little bit as the Garage1217 pins are longer than most.

Using in the CSP3 if you are adjusting the input and output pots it's a little tight if  you have big fingers, Might need to use a socket saver to give yourself some more room.

Different adapters are different sizes so might want to check before purchasing.

If you want the flavor of a 6SN7 in a 9 pin package you can try a 6CG7 or 6FQ7 that are electrically equivalent to a 6SN7. They should plug straight into the 6DJ8 socket.

Thanks for trying that!  Any verdict on the sound?

Good. I like to hear that they aren't necessarily better than what I'm currently using (Tungsram PCC88).  

safe, can't answer your torii question but i purchased my adapters from ebay.....have been very happy with these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-6SN7-TO-E88CC-ECC88-6922-6DJ8-Electron-Tube-Socket-...

David, thank you for your feedback. I do have some good 7308 in place and some better 6dj8, but I'm willing to give the 6sn7 a try.  I have several questions for you on the other tubes you, system,  and the difference in sound:
1.  Power tubes?
2.  Rectifier tubes
3. Are you using a preamp with your Torii? If so, are you using 6sn7?
4. Difference in sound between 6922 types and the 6sn7? (What brand/type/year)
5. Do you listen to digital or vinyl?
6. Speakers?
7. Room size?

Thank you for your time. I know there's a ton of questions.

Jon

I'm using nos winged C el34 power tubes, 5u4gb rectifier, amperex Jan 7308, with basis 2001 turntable/audio technica art9 cartridge, and NOLA Contender speakers. Near field listening situation...9 feet from speakers.  I do have the csp3, but have not connected to it yet.

Safebelayer,

1) My favorite power tubes in the Torii were the JJ 6L6GC, followed closely by the Tungsol KT-66.

2) My favorite rectifiers were the Create Audio 5AR4s. I also have a pair of Mullard 5AR4s which didn't sound any better in the Torii but made a huge difference in my preamp.

3) I used both a CSP3 and a Modwright LS-100 with the Torii. The CSP3 sounded great, but I ended up preferring the Modwright, which has been the case against all comers so far.

4)  The best 6SN7s gave more body and tone than any of the 6922 types which gave more detail, and again that's a preference on my part. My go-to 6SN7 is always the 50s-60s Sylvania non chrome-domes; not expensive and sound consistently great. I had Siemens PCC88s and JJ E88CCs (along with a few others I don't remember) that were good but not as good to my ears as the 6SN7s.

5) I listen to vinyl 80-90% of the time and the rest digital. My investment in my analog front end vs. my digital front end reflects that, as does my software; I own about 2,000 LPs and about 200 CDs.

6) Speakers are Zu Druid V, which fit perfectly my musical tastes and listening habits on the big rig. I also own a pair on DNAs, which I tried with the Torii and sounded great, but they are a much better fit in the living room system.

7) My listening room is 16x22 with the speakers on the short wall pulled out about 7 ft and toed in slightly. I sit about 11 ft from the speakers.

I'm happy to answer more questions if you have them. Who doesn't like to talk about their system?    ;)

David

Jon,

I've corresponded with Dan and he seems like a great guy and is always very helpful, even though I bought his preamp used. I kept the LS100 over the CSP3 mainly because I needed a remote and more than two inputs; the CSP3 was really good but I preferred the slightly more full sound of the LS100 vs the detail of the CSP3. And I already had an investment in vintage 6SN7s. I never tried the CSP3 with 6SN7s + adapters. Using the 6SN7s as Decware inputs didn't occur to me until I was comparing the Torii to my Atma-Sphere M60s.

$600 is a slamming deal for the CSP3 and you'll easily sell it for more than that. The LS100 is considerably more expensive, even used. If I didn't need the remote it would have been a much tougher choice.

David

Jon,

I A-Bed the Torii against my Atma-Sphere M60s for more than a year, and it was the hardest choice I've had to make in 40 years of stereo wrangling. Both were stock, and the winner was going to get upgraded, the Torii to 25th anniversary status or the Atma to current 3.3 level with V-Caps. They were very different flavors, and I had to imagine what both would sound like after upgrades. The Atmas won by a small margin, they went back to Ralph, and they're glorious and a fantastic match for the Druids. I'd still love to hear a 25th anniversary Torii though.    :)

I don't really have any preferred tube sellers. I buy from anyone who has mostly good feedback and has interesting tubes at the right price. I own a tube tester so I can always check their claims about the tubes. I've only been burned once, and it was because I took a chance with a guy who admitted he had no idea whether the tubes were good or bad. They were cheap enough I was willing to take the hit, and I did.

The Torii will have the same amount of gain whether or not you use a preamp; an active preamp like the CSP3 just adds gain to the chain. Active preamps also handle input/output impedance matching which can affect frequency response, plus tube preamps give more opportunities for tube rolling. Some people use the Torii with no preamp at all, or with a passive preamp. It's horses for courses; I've tried passive preamps and have always preferred active.

My current turntable is  JVC-Victor TT-81 in the CL-P2 dual arm plinth with a UA-7082 tonearm. Current cartridge is a Denon 103R retipped and recantilevered by Steve Leung at VAS with his boron cantilever and line contact stylus. Phono preamp is a heavily modded Jolida JD9.

David

I have only tried one 6SN7, a green label black base, Sylvania 6SN7GTB "Chrome Top - Angled "T" Plates." So not conclusive by any means. But in my Torii, without changing anything but a pair of ECC189 inputs to the 6SN7, I found the ways it causes my amp to act made this one 6SN7 anywhere from beautiful to not so....pretty uneven across recordings.

For context, my digital front end is tuned in all respects. It is very resolving without hardness, and has enough tape-like density, I am careful to keep a resolving and neutral balance when adding density elsewhere. It does not sound "digital" or "analog" to me, it just sounds like good music in a good room.

My Torii, CSP3, and HR1s are quite a bit faster, musically more resolving, smoother, and more spacious than stock. Also I have solved most tendencies toward excess thickness lower down, the bass very authentic and more impactful having tightened it up some. But within this, I tried to stay close to the original "voicing" as I modified them. Even now, to me, the Torii IV, and HR1s especially balance notably toward bass/warmth together.

And the way the Torii uses tubes contributes. Whether amping up power with rectifiers, VRs, inputs, or heavier/more powered up cables, different combinations can cause the Torii to reach what I hear as a "pushed" threshold at which it starts being overstated to me. And notably over that threshold, tonal density can shift toward being too concentrated, darkening/thickening bass and mids while exaggerating upper mids and highs. But generally, in a more pushed/thicker state, the bass is most "off" to me, and can mask too much of the mids detail and space.

I like warmth when detail is not overwhelmed by darker/thicker bass/mid-bass emphasis. But I am sensitive to shifting from "warm," toward dark/thick/veiled. I need a live feeling from recordings, with a just-right balance of speed, definition, space and fine detail, and a fast/tight but big bass feel and sound.... To more completely get this live feel, for me, requires a relatively perfect balance of tubes. Seeking this sound over many years has taught me to define the subtle edges of excess darkness and heaviness, and avoid going too far into it. Not far from this is a little lean or bass shy....so a delicate balance for me.

So though complex and resolving, my Torii, being good at displaying power in how it drives drivers, and having a signature weighted toward warm and bassy, this sets up its tuning parameters. More big and weighty than lower power Decware amps I have tried, this sets up some  tuning differences. My HR1s, based on the latest top driver and crossover design, like my Torii, are innately relatively big and full as well. I suspect that if I had DNAs or some transparent Omegas, my balance might be more tolerant of powered up and/or warmer tube sets.

To help illustrate my sound: Now, and before modifications, my favorite GZ32s, Mazdas with double bottom rectangular getters, are notably more balanced and flexible across recordings here than more powerful GZ34s I have tried in this system (Holland Philips, a few Mullard, Sylvania, and more). The GZ34s are enticing in ways, but finally overstated and pushy enough for me to not use them.

The 6SN7 in this setup:

In the Torii, changing only the early 60s Heerlen Amperex ECC189 Bugle Boys inputs, to the chrome top 6SN7GTs... With open and less forceful music, the 6SN7 were quite expressive, extra spacious, lucid and complex...   On semi-dense recordings, they were big and nicely balanced, stronger bass leaking into the mids, making them warmer and fuller, and lucidity and complexity overwhelmed by a bit, but still good...   With denser/darker recordings, they were pretty nice in milder areas of the music, and shifting toward darkish and saturated in more intense and full parts.

What I mean by saturation in this case, the sound begins to consolidate and become a little (or a lot) overly dense, causing enough of the finest detail and space to be absorbed and overwhelmed as the bottom and mids become thicker. When this happens I lose too much of what gives me "liveness." And on harder playing parts, the sound becomes excessively focussed, sort of tubular, darker, and rolled off..... not notably distorted, but thickish, intense and more homogeneous.

Not particularly louder, this 6SN7 sounds to me like it is creating a stronger signal, and pushing the power tube harder, creates a notable shift toward a strong/full signal. With this more powered up signal, there is more intense lucidity if mids are not overwhelmed by over-intense bass..... But on big/fuller recordings, "warm" fullness/thickness can edge into into consolidation/saturation. With more demanding material, whether an intense voice passage, hard playing on other instruments, or from the whole recording being full and forceful, without compensations, the 6SN7 goes way over for my tastes.

For these reasons, not having time to explore, the tube sat for quite a while, feeling like it didn't quite seem workable here. But liking a lot of what comes with its "overstatement," particularly the mid and upper mid lucidity and complexity, and thanks to stumbling on this interesting thread the other day, I began to do some experimenting.


To get close to my usual balance using ECC189s as Torii inputs..... a balance that sounds pretty magically good across recordings, these particular 6SN7 had to be notched back quite a bit.

The 6SN7s replacing ECC189s for Torii inputs, to clarify, I started with the outputs of the CSP3. I went from warm and powerful early 60s parasol getter Mullard E88CCs, to a quite neutral and clear early 60s Siemens E88CCs. Then, in the Torii, warmish 40s Sylvania OB3 power tube filtering VRs were changed to a less powerful, more open 40s Hytron OC3. And the input filtering VR, I went from a 75C1 (warmer more textured OC2 equivalent) to a cleaner, lower power RCA OB2. With these changes my sound is in some ways a little warmer, and perhaps a little more clarified in the upper mids, but it is close to the space, clarity, and signal intensity I have come to love.

I do like this tube combination, complex, rich and sweet. Though, still more in the first impressions stage, this particular tube set seems to have a good balance that more subtly utilizes all the complex qualities of the 6SN7. Less forceful, it really sounds good bottom to top on a number of recordings that I have tried.

I also liked them in the output of the CSP3, but still with the  toned down Torii VRs. Putting back in the ECC189 Bugle Boys as the Torii inputs, and still using an OC3, and OB2, I replaced the Siemens E88CC in the output position of the CSP3 with the 6SN7s.

I need more days of play, but with initial impressions, the CSP3 output is probably my fav for this particular 6SN7. I suspect it is the OTL nature of this design, but the output of the CSP3 is the easiest place in my systems to utilize warmer and more powerful tubes. There, the 6SN7s are revealing, rich, complex and extended, utilizing their warmish and expressive nature, while enhancing their special lucidity and dynamics.

I can't say exactly how this might translate since it has been over four years of steady experiments since my CSP3 and Torii were fully stock. But I think they mainly do what the stock amps did more completely.

One note: compared to these particular Mullard E88CCs, and the Siemens in the CSP output, and to the ECC189s in the Torii, though quite lively upper mids, this 6SN7 seems just a little rolled off. I think most of the information is there, just slightly recessed on top. This reminds me of the American Amperex 7308s I have.... I like the 7308's nice bass, space and definition throughout, and good upper mid textures, but they have enough roll off to make me feel like I am reaching for something that is not quite there. I suspect this is part of why so many people like them, giving a slightly warm, lively feel in most of the presentation, and presumably the roll off reduces top edge for folks who need that. But for me, in this system, it is an impediment to the sound I need. With this 6SN7, though I feel like it is a little rolled off here, so far I am not reaching for something that is not there. Seems this tube is really beginning to grow on me!


Finally, for those who have explored a lot of these tubes, I would love advice on others of the type you think might help me even better find the magic based on these observations with the Sylvania 6SN7GTB "Chrome Top." Any tips?

Thanks for this insight Steve. Though I try to get closely matched tubes, now that you mention it, I have little doubt I have experienced minor levels of these effects without knowing "what or why." Particularly I have had minor volume differences show up between channels that I once attributed to my room. But then it started happening now and then on the other channel. So I got used to touching up the balance with minor L/R tube pot adjustments in the CSP3 if needed. I thought I had figured out changing the tubes to the opposite channels did not necessarily help, but that has been a long time ago and I can't recall exactly. Next time I notice it, I will try changing the inputs R to L and also listen for subtle distortion and see what I hear. Thanks Steve,

Will

I mirror what Will stated. Would have liked to know this information when I bought my torii iii in 2012. I've had this happen numerous times and it always led me to think room issues, cabling, diffusers, and absorption issues. I also thought it was inherent in many recordings where balance was not there. Never thought of input tubes because imbalance would not always stay with one channel.
Good to know.

JD

I'm still trying to integrate the Sylvania Chrome tops I got, toning intensity down elsewhere to compensate for the quite interesting, but intense sound they create as outputs for my CSP3. First, in the Torii, changing OB3s to OC3s, and OC2 to OB2, this ended up a nice overall balance and intensity, but a little bass shy, especially with the body hit sort of stuff. After lots of different combinations, I now have the OB3 back in to push the power tubes a little harder, and compensated by pulling the Sophia 274B from the CSP3, replacing it with a lower key, balanced and rich sounding mesh plate AZ1. Also now have a warmish, but powerful and revealing Bel (Mullard India) ECC88 in the CSP3 input replacing a slightly cleaner ECC189. The bass hit back pretty well, close...this tube  set is beautiful on medium to fuller recordings, but still a little in the face on some leaner ones....

Having found a good balance that improves most recordings, I don't know if I can get this tube type to do what I love as well as the array of nice 9 pin tubes I have, but I am definitely trying. Ordered a couple RCAs to try and will keep playing....intrigued, but not fully convinced yet.

safe, indeed i have tried ken rad, mentioned early in the thread, but forgot to mention them again recently......unfortunately, the 2 pairs of late 40's VT-231 that i tried were even worse than the sylvanias to my ears. the mids and the high frequencies were too veiled, detail was suffering. they are kaput in my mind as well as sylvania. i sold the ken rads awhile back.

it seems the RCA VT-231  1940's smoked glass is king of kings in my system/room and to my ears. the later early-mid 1950's clear glass is very close and a real winner as well.

one other thing i'll mention is that i definitely prefer the 6SN7 in the input position of the Taboo and CSP3 to any of the 9 pin types that i've tried......more dimension, more holographic, just plain more intimate; and its exactly these characteristics i'm chasing after.

i hope that your experience with the ken rads is much better!

Try these:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-Tube-DIY-Adapter-Socket-Converter-6SN7-TO-6922-for-...

Just one 6SN7, for your preamp? Try this:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-VT-231-JAN-CRC-6SN7GT-audiophile-tube-WW2-V3E-test-...

I'm not sure how you approach ebay sellers who don't negotiate up front, but I ALWAYS send those who don't a message and put thru an offer that way. I never pay asking prices....if a seller refuses to negotiate, I walk away.

you cannot fail.

can't put thanks in a wallet! LOL

enjoy, you'll love what that RCA brings to the table.

No, tube and adapter are on their way here. Should have both later this week. They will be replacing a highly regarded Mullard tube.

HK

I've considered drilling into the adapter where the screws stick out. That way it will sit flush and be solid. Not sure what the inside of the adapter looks like so I might ruin the adapter when doing it.