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WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying... (Read 4408 times)
Steve Deckert
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WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
09/20/20 at 05:01:05
 
Is like saying Rain doesn't get you wet.

Tonight I did something I rarely do.  In fact I've only done it a half a dozen times in the past 17 years that I've been at this location.  I changed my speaker wire from ZSTYX to a more attractive silver-plated copper braided like Kimber cable that I recommended for the Tiny Radials that only go down to 70 Hz...

Balance is what determines what you hear.  I found this out tonight when I hooked up my main system with these new cables.

The new cable is bass deficient and dynamically limited.  With such a vacuum present, what is left is what is featured, the midrange and treble. It does some things amazingly well, so we can't discount it, however the overwhelming takeaway is that in a system that hit like tank, had weight like an elephant, and dynamics that were hard to forget... we now have an overly present super clear and super cloudy mix that gets runny with volume and desperately needs a sub.

Think about that.

I just made a pair of Zen Master Series speakers sound like box speakers with an 8 inch foam edged woofer that gets more and more congested with amplitude.  

When I think of how lean and dry solid state typically sounds in consumer grade amplifiers that alone is enough to often negate the need for a sub with otherwise perfectly capable speakers.  Now we cut it off at the knees with the speaker cable and people who hear the speakers, God forbid, come away thinking they actually kinda sucked.  And they did.

HIGH FIDELITY is a fragile balancing act of all the links in the chain... you can make some links from steel, some from bronze, some from nickel and some from copper and some from brass... because if you do, you have a copper chain.  Even if you add 98 links of Titanium to the chain, you still have a copper chain so long as even one single link of copper remains in that chain.

I just can't believe how a pair of speakers cables can while sounding quite pleasant can at the same time castrate all the balls to the point of needing a sub just to bring the sound back to the way it was.

If you frequently find yourself wishing your system sounded better, please if you're using Decware amplification, explore wire.  Explore it.  If you haven't compared at least three competitive cables in your system, your not an audiophile, you're a casual enthusiast.  I'm sorry it had to be said.

It's important that you do it.  Tonight I am listening to completely different speakers.  These speakers need a subwoofer and some tube rolling to dial back the forwardness in the midrange.  Last night the speakers were like God's own personal pair, in fact I posted about how good the sound was in the 25th Anniversary Zen Triode thread.  

With amplification this transparent, the speaker cable is EQUAL in importance to the SPEAKER itself.  The cable can change a bone crushing 15 inch speaker into a polite spongey 8 inch driver that distorts quickly with dynamics.

The upper midrange is dynamically molested and pinched causing you to continually want to adjust the volume down a bit.  If I were  evaluating amps right now I'd be screwed.  If I were evaluating tubes right now I'd be so misled it would be criminal.  If I were evaluating speakers right now, I'd be sending them back, no question.  



Steve




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Steve Deckert
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #1 - 09/21/20 at 05:15:00
 

As a follow up to last nights post that I hope people sake seriously because it's obviously not what anyone wants to hear. The truth often isn't.

Tonight I couldn't take it anymore...  the sound was like  wearing binoculars while walking on slippery snow.

I finally put the ZSTYX back in and things got a lot better.  Still, not quite what I remember... then I remembered that along with the speaker cables I got a pair of 1/2 meter XLR made of the same stuff, same braid, and put them in place of my own made from the same wire as our DAG interconnects.  A far less expensive cable I might add, but it has the right sound.  Once I put these back in between the DAC and PREAMP everything became as it was, which is to say heavenly.  

I can't believe how easy it is to destroy a sound. It's scary. Now I'm sure no less than half of Decware customers have never heard their gear.

Can it only happen with Decware's cables?  No. It can happen with all kinds of cables. But these cables are in the minority. These fancy silver cables that have driven me nuts could also be replaced by a single 10AWG pair of solid copper conductors without insulators, just bare copper.  You can make this from Romex house wire by stripping the ground wire from the cable and removing the paper. So for less than $30 you could make something twice as good as this fancy silver cable. It does have to be ZSTYX, which goes back to my comment, you need to try at least three cables. I would recommend making that one of them. It's a good reference, and the same thing in solid silver with cotton insulator is to die for, just cost 100 times more is all.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but cable is more important than room acoustics or probably what type of speaker you have. I mean I have the most enjoyable speakers I've ever had, the ZF15 Zen Master Series, and completely ruined them, just with cables. Gear was not changed, nor were tubes, nor was anything else touched.  

Let's use this time at home to explore what is possible. Remember, not more than an hour I go I took a 1/2 meter interconnect that cost 6 times more than the one I was using and ruined the sound. So exploring what's possible is not referring to seeing how much money you can spend.

Let the Audio Gods guide you.  If you find yourself in the kitchen for no reason, perhaps you should grab some tinfoil and try to make some speaker cable from that...  Once you begin the process of A/B/C three different kinds of wire (cable) the magic begins.  Trust me.  It teaches your brain how to listen.  It remembers.  It can then listen to any of the three cables and remember what the timbre sounded like of each, at which point it can recall that timbre for comparison to whatever it is hearing.  Prior to this, it couldn't do shit. ; )

I can for example, now that my stereo sounds the way it's suppose to, hear what it sounded like before over the top of any music I might be listening to and then marvel at how big the difference actually is.  I'm doing it right now while I write this.

Why the sudden panic posts about cables?  

Because I heard both my amplifiers and speakers sound like crap compared to what I know they actually sound like. That scares me for obvious reasons.

And for those who are tube rolling, excessively, before you go off the deep end on that, be 100% certain you have arrived at the right cables for your system. You know they are right because you tried many combinations over time until you reached that point where everything became sideways moves instead of clear improvements. Then and only then is what you hear when tube rolling actually valid... or phrased a little differently, actually going to sound like the tube actually sounds.

The reason Steve Deckert became successful as an audiophile and then able to create a business around it without investors, startup capital, or even a degree in electronics, is relentless A/B/C testing. The winner stays. Then we bring in two new challengers and repeat the process until the same one ends up always being the winner.  That's how we know it's good. Did it with speakers, speaker locations, amplifiers, preamps, sources, cables, tweaks, rooms, treatments, layouts, etc.  So you see it has nothing to do with money or even opportunity...  an open mind helps. If it is not suppose to work, make sure you try it so you can understand first hand why it doesn't work.

Getting back to the damn wire...  with the fancy wire the 2 watt amp sounded like it had 1/4 the power.  Distortion was always eminent.  I would have needed 10 times the power (20 watts) and a subwoofer to get the same performance that I get with just the speakers by themselves and the 2 watt amp.

Steve


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Brian
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #2 - 09/21/20 at 06:57:29
 
Quite a powerful lesson.
Thanks, Steve!

Brian
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #3 - 09/22/20 at 12:51:27
 
I've been an advocate for the importance of cables for a long time, along with our absent forum member Larry. At times I wish the journey had not led me into such expensive territory, but the journey did leave me with a surplus of excellent cables to integrate that has allowed me to cable three different systems now, and still have some surplus!

As I am not in a situation, and probably never will be, to utilize room treatment, cabling seems even more important and useful for tuning the ultimate sound.

These components are so transparent that everything matters!
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #4 - 09/22/20 at 17:12:21
 
Steve, I wish you had the time to measure things to help pinpoint *why* one cable ruins the sound vs another. i know the math guys love to browbeat us who say cables make a difference...so I wish I had more knowledge as to why one cable works and another doesn't.

That said, I do love to experiment with small bits...that's why we get excited about fuses and platforms and cables and such.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #5 - 09/23/20 at 03:44:52
 
Lonely Raven, it's a time smear that comes from multiple wires braided together.  Back when you and I first met I was experimenting with speaker cables, any self respecting DIY person has to have that stripe on their shoulder, right?  I experimented with braids and different gauge wires in combination and learned that all of it was questionable sounding compared to a single strand of 10 AWG copper with no insulator.

One of my experiments was copying Kimber's braid with different wires, and one night I got the bizarre idea to macramé some speaker cables.  For those not familiar it's four conductors, the center two are straight and side by side, the outer two are knotted around the center.  By the time you get to the end there is a massive difference in the length of wire used, and what did it sound like?

It sounded like crap. However, it had an amazing filter ability. You could play Crude MP3 files and the wire would glue everything together, no actually glue isn't the word, it would smear everything together.

In the case of something like the Kimber, where the wire length is assumed to be the same on all conductors, the braid itself has thousands of magnetic dams placed in the flow as each wire crosses another, and this stop and go traffic effect to the flow makes the music take on an unnatural quality.

Please understand this all comes from the perspective of spending 30 years listening to only 3 parts in the signal path on crossoverless drivers. It's a different world.  In the mainstream hifi world of big power and grain, this smearing is your friend, it lessens the fatigue that comes over time with feedback-laden or pulse-width modulated amplifiers.

What people worried about wire should try some time, is placing their amplifiers on stands directly behind the loudspeaker at the exact height of the binding posts and then using the shortest pair of solid conductors they can. That will show you what's possible. If you only have one amp, a stereo amp, no problem. Move it to one of your speakers and do what I suggested with one of the channels. Then connect a speaker cable from the other channel to the other speaker. Now you can A/B the differences first hand.

BTW, the reason the Kimber style braided wire I tried has no bass is the dam effect I talked about.  So where does that blocked energy go?  The amplifier is seeing a different back EMF signal from the loudspeaker, the blockage is reflected deep into the output stage the amplifier and both it and the speaker cable now have more energy for midrange and high frequency. The subjective effect of this, is the mid and highs become featured.  So you compare it to ZSTYX, and you think WOW, more detail, more highs, more this more that.  You're so amazed you don't even notice the reduction in bass emphasis.

I am sure it would be difficult to measure the subtle timing differences at each frequency on a scope and get anything remotely representative of what you are hearing because music is not a sine wave sweep. When you have lots of different frequencies inside a wire or any part of a circuit there is a change in it's behavior compared to when it plays only a single frequency at a time. For example, do the plot with a sine sweep, Then do it with 34 sine sweeps that begin and end at different times and are set to different frequencies and amplitudes... In a car this would be the difference in driving down the level highway to driving up a mountain. I guess what I am saying is that unlike a sine sweep, music is ever changing, and that continually modifies the impedance of the loudspeaker which in turn completely modifies the back EMF from the loudspeaker. So you have a signal going to the loudspeaker from the amp, and a signal coming backwards from the speaker to the amp. How does your cable design deal with that? Will negative feedback in the amplifier modify that behavior? Can an amplifier modify the behavior of a speaker cable?  Can a speaker cable modify the behavior of an amplifier?

Seeds for your head.  ;)

Steve
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #6 - 09/23/20 at 17:56:09
 

For those of use with a standard Decware equipment chain and high efficiency speakers but without a lot of time to experiment with wire, could we just use STYX and DAG wire and consider ourselves done?

I ask about DAG because I experienced terrible noise issues with Decware unshielded cables.
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #7 - 09/23/20 at 23:12:26
 
Quote:
... I wish you had the time to measure things to help pinpoint *why* one cable ruins the sound vs another. i know the math guys love to browbeat us who say cables make a difference...


I'm a "math guy" by vocation and I say this:  no one buys a Stradivarius, or a Rembrandt or a Chateau Margaux based on measurements and I'm not going to buy stereo gear based on them either. I'm going to buy gear based on how it sounds.

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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #8 - 09/24/20 at 16:34:17
 
Quote:
For those of use with a standard Decware equipment chain and high efficiency speakers but without a lot of time to experiment with wire, could we just use STYX and DAG wire and consider ourselves done?

I ask about DAG because I experienced terrible noise issues with Decware unshielded cables.


Metropolis

I currently run the DAG’s in a non audiophile setup and they are excellent.  They are run from my DAC and coiled up under area of my powered Bluetooth speaker that has an air gap for its bass port. Talk about an electrical nightmare of an environment.

Prior to the DAG’s was a set a Audioquest Golden Gate cables which are no slouches.  Here are the AQ cables...

https://www.audioquest.com/cables/analog-interconnects/bridges-falls-series/gold...

When I replaced the AQ cables with the DAG cables, I immediately noticed a big difference.  The DAG’s were more open, warmer, and liquid.  The DAG’s walked all over the AQ in every aspect.  I can’t wait to use the DAG’s in my future SE84UFO25 Zen amp.  

Hope this helps.

Dom

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metropolis7
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #9 - 09/24/20 at 17:43:36
 

Yes, that was a great help.
Seems like Decware cabling plays well with Decware gear, and that stands to reason.
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #10 - 09/26/20 at 14:28:40
 
If you want to start to go down the rabbit hole of cable design. Galen from ICONOCLAST has written a lot about how and why cables sound the way they do.

You can access his white papers on their website, he is also very active on the PS Audio forums and answers question frequently and in length.

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Steve Deckert
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #11 - 10/01/20 at 03:57:57
 

When the signal path is 1 capacitor and a couple resistors transparency is at it's highest.  Wire makes a big difference.

With the signal path is 2 capacitors and twice as many resistors transparency is less. Wire still makes a big difference.

When the signal path is many capacitors and many resistors, transparency is even less.  The differences in wire are beginning to diminish somewhat.

When the signal path is large value electrolytic capacitors such is the case with most solid state, transparency is an even tougher accomplishment.

When you consider that many line level solid state circuits are built around Opamps that are coupled through large value electrolytic capacitors and understand that a single Opamp contains perhaps 27 transistors, we're now a long way off from where we started, when wire made a huge difference.  

Eventually as we continue down this path, wire will make less and less difference.  This is the real reason why there is such a world wide disagreement on the differences wires make.

Then there is the pivot point where what is considered bad sounding speaker wire becomes good sounding speaker wire. It is what happens when we continue down the path a little further and transparency like we started with is no longer even a concept, and grain and flatness is a problem. Now speaker wire is designed as a very esoteric filter to mask the grain, and create a sense of liquidity in the midrange, either intensionally or by accident.  I say that because any good wire company is going to try many designs and pick the best sounding one.  

My advise when buying wire, is look at what the manufacture of the wire is using to listen to that wire with...

Steve



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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #12 - 10/01/20 at 16:44:12
 
Steve, I think I read in one of your White Papers that the type of wire you use for the few inches of wire inside your Zen amp makes a difference.  That being the case, I can easily see where you're coming from on speaker wire.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #13 - 10/01/20 at 20:20:07
 
Last night we evaluated several pairs of speaker wire using many different speakers.  Going in there were favorites based on prior listening sessions, so when it came to demonstrate how "bad" the favored looser was, we were all surprised to hear it sound very good, as well as the favorites sound less than satisfying.  The difference was the speakers.  So my theory about the silver wire from China as to why it removes so much bass went out the window when we hear bass from it on certain speakers.

So the take away is this.  It's a waste of time to think about it, research it, or anything other than actually trying it with the specific speakers you plan to use.  

Steve
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #14 - 10/01/20 at 21:04:51
 

This might be a stupid question, but here goes: How much of this pertains to a  hi-rez headphone-based system?
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #15 - 10/02/20 at 00:26:51
 
Steve, thanks for posting your thoughts and experience on this topic. You inspired to re-think my current configuration.

The only 2 DIY projects I've done were, in fact, speaker cables. The first was many years ago using a recipe I found on TNT's website. It was a great experience and I used those cables for years before moving on to Better Cables Silver Serpents. My curiosity with solid silver drove my last project which was just a couple of years ago. Again, a great experience and I used those cables for a time as well. This morning I re-inserted them back into my system and, well, the sound quality is fantastic. Expectation bias? I don't think so. Of note, I needed to turn down the volume on my subwoofer.


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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #16 - 10/02/20 at 08:32:06
 
When I first built my huge horn speakers I purchased this big roll of 99.99 whatever percent oxygen free copper silver plated multi strand cable to hook up the driver to the binding posts and then put banana plugs on the rest and hooked it up to my Audio Innovations 500 Valve amp.  The speakers i'd spent several thousand dollars on so far, replicas of a model that had got rave reviews didn't sound that great.  As luck would have it, I knocked one over all 4ft 6 of it.  It yanked the amp about two foot across the room bent the banana plugs to hell but no real damage done to amp or speakers.  So I rigged up some new cables out of flat ribbon cable from Chord company I had previously used.  The cables where intended for bi-wiring made of four ribbons each with three or four cores of solid copper.  This time it was like I'd previously been listening to the speakers with a cushion duct taped over the driver.  I can't believe how bad they sounded before.  That was a temp set up, the nearest I found at the time for a proper set up that I could afford was solid single core stuff from Anti Cables.  I replaced everything from driver to amp.  They work so well on the Lowther drivers the xtra bass was too much I had to dial the crossover on the integrated powered subs back a lot to stop any boom.  Everything was hugely improved.  

I've been trying out a cheap chinese class A amp to give away with Decware Tiny radials (when I've built them) as a present - I hooked up this integrated two box amp (power supply and amp) to my horns - it's fast and sweet and kicks ass for the money and had my feet going all afternoon.  Which tells me one thing, the cheap interconnects I bought from a DIY store to hook up my Korg Triode pre-amp to my ACA monoblocks as a temporary measure are doing me no favours, they have to go.  Amp Camp Amps should sound fast and a bit tubey mine don't at the moment.  Time for new interconnects then.  I'll progress back to tubes (monoblocks) at some point but a Nelson Pass designed single ended transistor amp isn't a bad substitute for now.
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #17 - 10/02/20 at 23:23:02
 
Are ZSTYX cables available in a bi-wire configuration?
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #18 - 10/03/20 at 00:21:13
 
After reading this thread I bought a set of XLR’s from Better Cables. Steve has recommended the company for XLR’s before if I remember correctly. Anyway received them Weds and put some hours on them and they just keep getting better and better and the cables I replaced as an experiment were no slouches.
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #19 - 10/03/20 at 02:32:35
 
metropolis7,

Since your phones have no room to adjust your sound, even though they have a chosen spectral balance, it would be consistent, sonic changes coming from how all else effects the headphone sound. So if all is transparent and resolving, from computer and DAC to your headphones, then I would think digital, IC and headphone cables would matter every bit as much as in a speaker/room system, ie, a lot in a resolving system!

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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #20 - 10/03/20 at 02:50:59
 
@Showme .. nice cables. I've used Better Cables for about 15 years (including their XLR's). I've tried others and always end up back to them. I rarely see them mentioned on other forums despite their quality and pricing. I must admit to feeling somewhat pleased Steve has recommended them. Best.
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #21 - 10/03/20 at 02:53:47
 
Seem to be nice people too.
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #22 - 10/03/20 at 03:15:05
 
ZSTYX can be ordered non-terminated so that you can install your own connectors if you don't want the silver banana jacks we use.  By using stackable banana jacks, or a spade connector on one set of cables and a banana on the other you can easily achieve bi-wiring.
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #23 - 10/05/20 at 20:49:47
 
I've read that silver can make a system bright.  If that is the case then what is the opposite if you have a bright system and you want to warm it up?
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #24 - 10/05/20 at 21:06:29
 
Copper, preferably 6N continuous cast (high quality).

HK
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #25 - 10/06/20 at 03:48:42
 
Question I had for a while for power cables: why would anything sound better than the what is used in the wall? I used 12 gauge Romex and some good plugs. But I wonder what the theory is behind more expensive power cables and why the last 1-3m of that cable compared to the 10-20m or Romex in your walls?
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #26 - 10/06/20 at 04:44:17
 
Good topic!

Here is my challenge (maybe someone has already one this!).

Have a company make different cables, but instead of the 'OK' ones being cheap and the 'best' ones being the most expensive...make multiple cables with *different* sounds (maybe a little more or less expensive based on the materials) and price them based on that!  Maybe one is more expensive, but that does not automatically make it the *better* sounding one.

I get why a giant tower speaker is more expensive and 'better' (lower bass, more sensitive, whatever), but I always question why a more expensive cable is automatically BETTER rather than just being 'different'.

I might be totally wrong and bias from what others taught me, but my perception is silver wire is brighter/more harsh (which could be GOOD in some cases), fine braided copper can be messy, and solid/thick strand copper is a good place to start.

Won't be offended if you disagree with any/all of this!
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #27 - 10/06/20 at 07:12:50
 
I predict this amp will seduce you into more than "occasional" use!
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #28 - 10/06/20 at 08:54:01
 
I agree with HK that UP-OCC copper is really nice wire and can sound warm, especially solid core, but to me UP-OCC silver is quite smooth and warm also. UP-OCC = Ultra-Pure Ohno Continuous Cast = super pure metal with an ultra long crystal structure. Seems to me very pure metal, with very uniform and consolidated structure, makes UP-OCC in general about as good as we can easily get in home audio for purity of transmission. Generally, I find UP-OCC is fundamentally smooth, warm and resolving. And this advanced wire compared to those that contribute to the sense that "silver" is bright, illustrates to me that many things can contribute to "brightness" beyond "silver" or "copper."

I think "bright silver" has lots to do with the actual silver used and how it is drawn and annealed. In my experiments, even 4N (99.99%) purity silver, if soft annealed, can sound quite resolving, smooth and warmish. Whereas harder silver can get hard and sizzly.

I have used Neotech and VHAudio UP-OCC silver, the Neotech with teflon, and VHAudio with cotton covering. Both have quality silver's clarity with great resolution, but are also quite smooth and warm to me, warmer and smoother than 4 or 5N silver that is not OCC. Comparing Jupiter 5N silver in cotton, it is notably less smooth and resolving of very fine information to me. And of the OCC wires, theoretically the cotton cover should be better, having less dielectric interaction, but I tend to prefer Neotech with teflon over VHAudio with cotton...the Neotech a nice little shade "livelier" to me. Don't know how much of this is from subtle differences in wire, or dielectric, or both.

Also I have explored Neotech UP-OCC copper that is basically litz wire intensely woven around a flat, rectangular base. I would call it exceptionally clear and clean in general, quite articulate and detailed without being hard. It has a good shimmer of good copper, and is a little "warm," with a fine detail clarity that is notable. Where UP-OCC copper solid core in teflon, from the same company, is less weighted toward bright/clean, feeling clear and still having that copper shimmer, but smoother, less up-front detailed. The thought being that the same copper made differently can be quite different in the end.

Personally I usually prefer UP-OCC silver for ultimate resolution with smooth warmth. I like UP-OCC copper too, it is just that the silver is warm with very smooth and complex resolution, so more complete to me without being hard. I use copper and silver, often together, as they can nicely bring the best out of each other. But on balance, in my setup, I use more UP-OCC silver for mods and ICs. The downside, if there is one in the ways that I use them, is that a lot of UP-OCC in different uses can potentially tend toward slightly over smooth and warm if the system is weighted toward smooth/warm with other parts.

To me, silver plate on copper presents loads of wild cards, both metal's purity, hardness and structural evenness effecting the sound. And how thick the plate is, the sound depending in part on the net proportion of copper core versus silver plate.... the same plate thickness can have more influence if the copper wire is smaller than if it is a bigger wire. Also how twisted, braided, or woven the wire is, aspects of which having already been looked at in this thread.... geometry and/or, many wires versus one or two to accomplish the net gauge, each effects everything else.

Aside from plating, stranded versus solid of a given wire sounds pretty different a lot of times to me. If using bigger strands in particular, stranded wire can sound brighter/more sizzly comparing it to solid core of the same gauge, maker, metal, and dielectric.

And very fine strands versus bigger strands tend to show less obvious stranded effects to me. Sometimes bigger/looser stranding can result in "edginess," particularly with lesser quality wires. Whereas, especially with good wire, it seems tightly packed finer strands tend more toward smoother and less zippy, "good" stranding sometimes increasing the sense of complexity rather than tending toward edginess.

Silver plate like ZSTYX, with loads of fine and tightly packed strands, though it has been a long time, as I recall the sound reflected the two metals blending pretty well, presumably due to this particular wire and construction, the characters of the metals melding better than many silver plated wires. I recall clarity from the silver, but with warmth and nice fine detail. And especially being quite large 8 gauge wire, in my setups they weighed toward big/deep bass, and that effects the whole of the spectral balance, contributing to warmth and some smoothing mids up.

To me gauge is a big factor in wire sound. I suspect an 11 gauge STYX wire, half the wire of an 8 gauge, and the same other than gauge, would be notably less bassy, and therefore balanced more toward tighter/less full bass, and more weighted toward mids and highs.

Similarly, thinking about your experience with the woven cables from China Steve, I am wondering if gauge might be a contributor to why the woven silver on copper cables sounded so mid forward and bass shy in your initial tests. Though I agree, heavy wire crossing makes a lot of difference, but whether hookup wires, power cables, ICs, or speaker cables, here I find that gauge is a major determinant of bass, and how much of the spectral balance bass fills in up into the mids.

Granted, mine is a system with a Torii that stock, weighs toward bassy/warm to me, HR-1s, that also weigh toward warm toned with deep bass to me, and a room with some remaining bass challenges. But I have worked all these over to get more of a single ended lucidity than the Torii was already good at. And with lots of room work, serious modifications to amps and speakers to make them faster, tighter, and more spacious and musically resolving, still, wire gauge is big time here.

I had gotten some raw woven cable from a Chinese seller to hopefully upgrade my headphone cables. It looks quite similar to those you linked Steve in your small radial thread, and that were a reference for this thread. The one I chose was supposed to be 5N silver wires, 16 wires woven into a tube like those you linked. I had remembered stumbling across one seller calling them 8 gauge with an allusion to a smaller gauge elsewhere in the writeup....Not having assembled my cable yet, I stripped the ends and measured. They are 20 gauge stranded wires, 16 wires making up the weave, and this does calculate to 8 gauge total. Then splitting them to make a + and -, 8 wires for each comes to 11 gauge. Anyway, if yours are like this, I imagine that if you were to try two speaker cable pairs, so that each of the - and + were a full 8 gauge, these cables would likely be pretty clean from the geometry, but I would imagine doubling the wire would seriously shift them toward bass and increased punch.

In my systems anyway, with all cables I have made and tried, even a gauge or two can make a big difference. For example, quite a while ago now, I needed a very transparent power cable to mitigate what to me was masking built into the PSAudio P5 regenerator I got. Trying for a configuration I thought would be quite clear, I used 20-16 gauge military silver plated copper wires in teflon, creating a conglomerate gauge of 9. I mildly twisted the neutral and hot groups into a sort of helix twist, twisted in opposite directions for hot and neutral. As I recall it, each group was then "wrapped" with ground wires spaced ±1.5-2" apart in a helix pattern, the ground wrap direction opposing the base wire twists. I built in some passive filters on one end, and the hot and neutral groups were finally damped separately with cotton cloth before wrapping the whole with cotton. For ends I ended up liking "Furutech NCF Rhodium" ends from a seller in China over several others.

But before finishing them, initially this particular 9 gauge conglomerate was better for transparency than others I had tried, including a PSAudio AC12, but it was too balanced toward bass for me. It sounded cleaner and faster as hoped, but bassy enough to be a little thick and full. Removing some wire, now 10 gauge, it was still a little thick on heavy recordings. So I ended up with 11 gauge sounding pretty neutral and more spacious, and at the beginning of my power chain, notably increasing clarity with really nice spectral balance, solving a lot of the regenerator's warmish veils for me.

Same with speaker cables. For my systems and tastes, it as been a long time, but I recall ZSTYX with affection, a big sound throughout, clear and articulate, but weighted toward bass/warmth in the balance with my speakers and amp (for my tastes), I had compensate some. Twist them, maybe 7-8 twists over 10 feet, the bass tightened and mids opened. I recall I liked the tighter/faster/cleaner sound, especially the tighter bass, but the way I had everything else set, to me the mids ended up a little hard on recordings prone that way. So I went back to having them separated by 5-6 inches, lifted off the floor a bit, and worked around bass/warmth in other ways.

With my amp, my speakers, and my room all leaning toward bass for my tastes, and having heard the possibility of cables adjusting the system just with twisting the ZSTYX a little, while having noticed how a lower gauge cable could adjust the sound also, looking at different cables became a more articulate process for me. This is when I discovered just how much gauge mattered. Still unsatisfied after trying several pretty respected cables, STYX, Morrow SP6, Synergistic Research Copper Elements with UEF and active shielding (and others), having played around with many cable designs (commercial and home-made), I had some feel for the effects from wires and geometry. So I decided to see if I could beat all those I had tried, with an advantage of mine also being tunable since I was making them.

I liked the musical liveliness of 16 gauge NOS WE stranded-tinned-copper, but it was way too lean for me on its own. And doubling and tripling the strands to increase bass worked, but it made the seductive upper mid textures of a single strand hard. Wanting to use a single WE wire, I blended it with a solid, pure, soft annealed copper wire in oversized teflon, also one of pure soft annealed silver in oversized teflon, and a small wire, titanium plated copper also in oversized teflon. Together coming to ±12 gauge, this mostly raw wire cable was nearly as clear, complex, and spacious as the Synergistic Research Copper Element with UEF bullets I was using for my resolution standard, but to me mine were more lively, a bit more solid, and had notably better bass resolution and weight. Then I started playing with twists, and if I remember correctly, I liked ±12 over 10 feet, not a braid, but sort of, loosely twisting each wire around the group separately. With this particular wire grouping, in this system, about 12 twists clarified things just enough, where more twists got a little too pristine and tight, and less, a little soft and undefined. That was quite a long time ago, and though I have materials for a pair I think will be better, I love these only 12 gauge cables so much, the parts for new ones have been sitting around for years.

Same with the ICs I have been developing, once close to a musical neutrality, changing one of the wires from 26 to a 28 gauge, or 26 to 24, "adjusts" the cable sound notably to me. They stay in a usable range with these relatively subtle changes, but for the really ideal spectral and spacial balance, a little bit can shift it toward better or worse with magic somewhere in the middle.

I could go on and on (even more) about wires...... I find it a lot of fun. And it is not that any of these experiences imply absolutes, but they are tendencies I have noticed, indicating as usual, that it all matters... Right now I am deliberating over two Neotech wires, both the same silver/gold alloy, used in otherwise pretty close to the same IC, same geometry, damping, wire blend, ends.... One wire is stranded in a PE covering, and the other is solid core in teflon. When I listen to one cable, where these wires are a part of the whole, I like it better....put in the other, and I like it better. The stranded is a little midrange livelier, and the solid smoother, but still very musically clear. I can't say in this case if stranded or solid is better, both good choices, but they are different!

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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #29 - 10/06/20 at 11:48:27
 
Will,

Great insights and commentary. It's not just about the metal, level of purity, and cable construction. The actual metallurgy process is equally important as is the wire gauge. Neotech, for one, seems highly regarded by many audiophiles regarding their approach.

I have not sampled IC's or speaker cables extensively. I settled into a cable loom largely composed of ZenWave Audio products. I did compare these to a 10 AWG military grade silver-clad copper wire a few months ago. I found the latter to sound edgy, with an overly bright treble and more forward soundstage. This after 150+ hours of burn in.

I prefer neutral, clear sounding cables in my system, that provide an abundance of plenty of detail in the music. The goal, faithful reproduction of the music as recorded, especially simple miked acoustic & live music.

That's what attracted me to Decware equipment in the first place. Steve's amps and preamps deliver the goods in terms of faithful reproduction of music in spades. So investing in quality cables that "stay out of the way" just makes sense. YRMV.

HK
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #30 - 10/06/20 at 12:28:30
 
I too am very fond of Ohno metal and I have both Ohno copper and silver (not silver-clad copper) in my interconnects and Ohno copper in my speaker cables in my main system. Even some in my power cables in both my "speaker systems" and in most of the interconnects in my audio-visual system. Once you get used to it. . . it's like a habit you can't shake.
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #31 - 10/06/20 at 20:45:03
 
If you start using silver loudspeaker cables is it necessary to also change the interconnects so that everything matches?
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #32 - 10/06/20 at 21:06:32
 


That’s the way I read Steve’s early post to this thread and it’s what I did sounds pretty good is it worth the money, all depends.

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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #33 - 10/07/20 at 23:38:03
 
I think there are a lot of ways to look at trying to use all the same wire types, or the same cables, but is it "necessary," I would say not.

I can only reference my explorations, but I have always picked up, or made, nice cables a little at a time. And all I kept being good, but having different sonic characters, I have been a mixer and matcher.

Components having individual sonic flavors, not exclusively, but especially with power cables, I like to take advantage of the pretty inevitable sonic variations between nice cables by periodically rolling them a little, matching cables with components. Maybe a component benefits from a cable tending to revealing with a touch of warmth. Or another might benefit from more pronounced clarity that is friendly but more "awake." Or one might sound better with the fuller/bigger sound of a bigger gauge cable, or maybe a smaller gauge to reduce bass and open mids, and so on. It is interesting to me how certain cables can sound really good with certain gear, and with others less good. But a cable being pretty much an extension of a component, that with good synergy it can notably improve a component, this makes sense to me.

On the other hand, having focussed on refining ICs lately. And since my ICs and my speaker cables are ones I made, the designs developed together, they do share design and material attributes, as well as sonic preferences... So this organically developed into fitting a variation of the "loom" idea, and I do like how they work on the signal similarly. But since these ICs and speaker cables are individually my favorites over others I have heard, aside from being similar in design, that they sound good together makes sense. I am thinking this is not dissimilar from back when my cables were individually more different, but all being cables I thought helped my system/room, they worked well together also.

That said, had I tried, I might have liked a "loom" made up of some of those earlier cables I liked, but I pretty much love what I have now. So my thought is that the loom idea might work really well if the cables individually really excel in a system and room. But it could as easily sound better with the addition of one exceptional cable that does not fit the loom criteria, especially as the system/room evolves. In my case, the system is in a steady state of evolution, and as components and cables and room get better, less weak links, the sounds of cables show more. Also, as cables have improved, they improve the components.

So I can understand either path, "loom," or not, but to me at this point, all pure (not plated) "silver," though I have little doubt the right ones could be really good, from the progression of experiments I have been playing with in recent years, where I actually like to mix wires in a cable, all silver would not be my personal choice...at least today.

However, when I was buying most of my cables, the ICs I liked were all variations of pure silver, though there would be many who would prefer copper, and some who use both successfully. And after one try using pure silver speaker cables, I really liked the open clarity, but the gauge was too small, so too little bass in the balance. And to solve this seemed like it would have required twice the wire, making it a special order with no returns, so I chickened out. I keep thinking of making some to play with though!@#$%.

I suspect I will always like having a variety of power cables. Most of mine are copper with a few for special needs being silver plated copper. None just alike, they are all really good, but as mentioned, I really like using tonal variations to optimize components... Some examples, one is made from Neotech 11 gauge copper cable and Neotech gold plated ends, clean, neutral and revealing. It was particularly good with my Singxer USB bridge so it stays there for now. One is from PI Audio, 10 gauge copper with special geometry and damping, and with gold plated Furutech ends I put on. It is quite "transparent" with little notable influence on the sound. I currently like it best with my CSP3. In the Torii is a cable made with 12 gauge Furutech cable, very fine stranded pure copper, with nano particles of silver and gold applied to the strands with a special oil. This cable sounds best to me with "Rhodium Furutech  NCF" ends I got from a Chinese seller. It is warm and extended, but without muddle or loss of fine detail from its darkish touch. Normally I don't prefer darker cables, but this one goes low and high clearly, with really good smooth fine detail, so a revealing and rich addition to the complex.

The thread of my power cables is that they all perform really well in terms of balance, while being highly revealing throughout. Alternately, there are many cables that would not fit this criteria. This points to a caution about the consistency idea of speaker cables and ICs being all "silver." Without care, I think one could inadvertently come up notable sonic variations, and especially since some silver can be harsh, special care in choices makes sense to me for this route.

Each maker doing silver cables differently, with different quality silver, different wire sizes and conglomerate gauge, different dielectric, different geometry, different connectors, some with shields and some not, and if with shields, using different shield materials, some shields too close to the signal wires for my tastes, and some separated more to reduce shield interaction with the signal wires... looking at these broader variables, each could potentially have a notable influence on sound and performance, and collectively lots of sonic differences could show up, some good, and some bad depending on preferences and system. So it is not surprising how sonically varied cables can be.

But if one has a preference for silver, then choosing cables that are considered amazing with good silver, I can imagine this as a real choice. Even then though, without personally exploring cables individually, one could get two silver IC pairs, both highly respected, and they could sound pretty different from each other. And this could be good or bad, again depending on system/room and tastes.

All that said, in my view, if you are just getting into nicer cables, I would probably suggest to do some reading on how some popular cables in a doable price area sound, and pick one that sounds right for how you would like your system to improve. Then if you keep it, it will create a new starting point for more exploration.

My ideas today anyway. I hope this helps.
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #34 - 10/08/20 at 01:51:22
 
Quote:
Each maker doing silver cables differently, with different quality silver, different wire sizes and conglomerate gauge, different dielectric, different geometry, different connectors, some with shields and some not, and if with shields, using different shield materials, some shields too close to the signal wires for my tastes, and some separated more to reduce shield interaction with the signal wires... looking at these broader variables, each could potentially have a notable influence on sound and performance, and collectively lots of sonic differences could show up, some good, and some bad depending on preferences and system. So it is not surprising how sonically varied cables can be.


Will...when I first joined the Decware community 7 years ago, I was looking for a decent pair of interconnects when I bought my ZSTAGE.  At that time I didn’t want to spend a crazy amount of $$$, but wanted to try a pair of silver cables.  

Steve had talked highly of the My Audio Cables by Steve Hallick as a good bang for the buck.  I bought the Ultra Silver’s and couldn’t be happier. They were sharp, detailed and smooth once they were burned in. I wouldn’t say there overly bright, but definitely more forward.  

Needless to say, I completely agree with your aforementioned quoted statement.  

Now that I have my SE84UFO25 on order, it will be great to see how the silver cables sound with the Zen amp.  I have Steve’s DAG cables to swap out, so it will be interesting to see the comparison.  

Either way I am in for a wild ride with this being my first Decware amp.  

Dom
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #35 - 10/08/20 at 04:07:22
 
Hey Dom,

I liked Ultra Silvers too. My first silver ICs were Decware Sliver Reference, and liking them, when I ordered my ZStage, I ordered a 1/2 meter pair of Silver Reference. But I kept my eyes open for other respectable and relatively inexpensive cables to try. Particularly since My Audio Cables was doing a lot of promotions about that time, I fell into a pair of Ultra Silvers for I think ±$50 plus shipping! Might have been an auction of some sort, but they had them pretty often for a while and I got lucky.

As I recall, in some ways I preferred Ultra Silver over my Silver References, the Ultras being a little milder sounding, a touch less up front, but otherwise quite similar. That was quite a long time ago, but as I think about it now, the Silver Reference and Ultra Silvers together began to show me that a synergistic blend of compatible cables can potentially offer greater complexity and subtlety to the whole of the sound. I realize now, that may have been a pretty instrumental shift in my explorations, the realization that the nuances of increased complexity really can help make the music more real, something I have actively explored ever since.


Exciting about your new amp coming soon!
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #36 - 10/08/20 at 14:32:09
 
Thanks Will,

Like yourself I did get the MAC cables on an introductory price.  After I ran them in they smoothed out nicely.  Even though I was only using them in a non audiophile scenario, I enjoyed the sound.  

Right now I run The Decware DAG cables coming off my  DAC into a Bluetooth powered Speaker, and they work great since they are in an area with other electronics close by, so the RF shielding helps.  The MAC Ultra Silvers are not shielded, so they are currently on standby until my ZEN amp arrives.  

So to Steve’s point...yes cables do make a difference.  I assume there becomes a point of diminishing returns as you go up in price with cables, but until I get Zen amp, investing in boutique cables to run with a solid state state amp or a budget Bluetooth speaker doesn’t make much sense.  

Dom
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #37 - 10/08/20 at 21:52:24
 
Are the ZSTYX in-wall rated? Even if they are it’d be quite expensive to buy the 25 ft I need for the right channel to snake into the wall, under the floor, and back out on the other side of the fireplace. But I still wonder how much I’m giving up using AudioQuest Slip 16/2 in wall wire. It is run right through the terminal cup and up to the full range driver itself; no crossover and no solder transition to hook up wire to deal with.
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #38 - 10/09/20 at 05:41:33
 
I can tell you that if you ran ZSTYX under the floor and across the room as you suggested, you would not be able to hear any difference between it and the short side.  That's really what makes it so different from other cable, that length doesn't matter in the context of lower power tube gear under 100 watts.
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #39 - 11/12/20 at 19:17:39
 
I’ve been doing research on speaker cable for my Lii W-15 bass drivers. Is there a particular type/size that will perform better in the lower frequencies (20Hz to 1000Hz)? These drivers are powered by a Crown sub amp at 215 wpc @ 8 ohms.
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #40 - 11/12/20 at 21:16:37
 
Geno,

You might try some 12g Duelund wire available from Parts Connexion. It's a very good match with the Lii 15's.

https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-87080.html

HK
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #41 - 11/12/20 at 21:49:56
 
Thanks HK! I’ll take a close look at that.
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
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Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Geno
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Without music, life
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Posts: 1988
Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #42 - 11/23/20 at 15:17:57
 
For those looking for speaker cable, this Duelund stuff is the real deal. Link above. After I got my 15” bass drivers, they lacked the tight bass that I knew was possible from reviews of the driver. So $199(18’-shipped, for 12 awg) later, I now have the bass I was looking for - in spades. The difference is huge! From a value per dollar standpoint, this might be the best money I’ve spent on audio yet. Highly recommended. Thanks again HK!
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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will
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Posts: 2914
Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #43 - 11/23/20 at 22:35:24
 
Hey Geno,

Good to hear those Duelund cables helped. There are so many cable factors that can effect sound in a given setting, I wonder what cables you replaced with the new Duelunds?

For me, regardless of wire types used (in this case Duelund's favored style of tinned copper), in my systems, too big a gauge of a given wire/cable can tip things too far into bass. And in excess, being muddled, excess can appear as a lack of bass in a given room. If this is the case, a little smaller wire/cable of the same type can adjust the bass back enough to sound clearer and more focussed, so tighter/faster and more visceral, effectively stronger feeling and sounding assuming the wire has a good balance for the system and room. Or too small a gauge for the same system/room can make it seem bass-lean.

Clearly different speakers and gear, and bass modes in different settings and systems effect this phenomena to greater or lesser degrees, creating wildcards.

I think this first became really clear for me with extremes. I had been using 8 gauge Decware silver plated copper wires for some years, and in my system, I struggled to keep the bass right...great sound, but enough tendency toward strong/saturated bass to be noticeable in tuning needs. Then I tried some Morrow SP4, 13 gauge, but in my system, with their particular configuration using lots of small fairly tightly crossed up wires, they were notably too lean. These cables with all the little wires took forever to burn in, taking me into a holiday when the 30 days was up for returns so I was late by a few days. Luckily, they sent me some 11 gauge SP6s as a free upgrade, same basic cable, but more wires. And though not an ultimate favorite, they sounded good and the balance was just a little bass shy here, but good.

Sometime later, NOS 16 gauge Western Electric wires had become popular, so much so, the WE becoming hard to find, Duelund started making their own version of them. As I understand it, your cables are a later 12 gauge edition of these initial 16 gauge wires, and available in cable form. Anyway, the 16 gauge WE had a seductive mid-range, rich and textured, but was hugely bass-shy in my system, making me think that the folks who liked them so much must have had some pretty strong bass in their system and rooms, causing this little wire to sound really good....

So since your sound improved so much, just wondering more exactly why....hoping you can tell us what you came to the Duelunds from.

Wink
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Geno
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Without music, life
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Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #44 - 11/24/20 at 02:59:51
 
Hi Will. I was using Zu Audio Mission (Mk I) before the Duelund. Not knowing the history, I did not know that the Duelund is based on older Western Electric cable.

Best,

Geno
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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ovs-audio
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Posts: 16
Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #45 - 11/24/20 at 06:33:01
 
I've had a lot of amps, and a lot of cables in the past, but I always find the belden 9497 better than the duelund, another verry nice cable is the mogami 2804.
the interconnect mogami 2803 is also very good, with KLE connectors.

But our ears are all different !
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Geno
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Without music, life
would be a mistake.

Posts: 1988
Re: WIRE doesn't make a difference is like saying...
Reply #46 - 11/24/20 at 13:12:24
 
OVS,

I’m using the Dueland on my bass drivers, so I don’t know how it would do with mid and high frequencies. I’m using mapleshade cable on my full rangers. I’m really liking the overall sound of this pairing, but since the Dueland is so affordable, I may try some on the full rangers as an experiment. I wonder if 16 awg would be better for higher frequencies? The mapleshade wire is so funky and hard to run. I’d love to get rid of it if I find something better.
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
  IP Logged
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