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Broken tube question (Read 9945 times)
morp
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Broken tube question
08/28/20 at 16:38:08
 
Good Morning,

I purchased two PSVane Treasure Globes to run via 6SN7 -> 6922 adapter in the Taboo, and one arrived bent inside and the other arrived with a piece of loose glass inside. I tried the bent one and it works just fine and sounds beautiful (I wonder whether it being bent inside changes the sound?). My question is: Is there any risk to the amp in trying the other?

https://ibb.co/KhWTLZ4

Thanks!,
Richard
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IMG_20200824_224232_resized.jpg
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will
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #1 - 08/28/20 at 17:57:47
 
Can't say for sure, but I do have a number of old tubes that came with interior glass chips and have not been a problem, the chip presumably from the inner glass blob the wires rise through, and no other apparent damage to wire connections, etc. In most cases for me the seller had tested it as good and explained there was a glass chip with no other damage, and they were inexpensive... The sellers being highly rated, I went for it expecting they would fix things if I had problems.

If the vacuum is lost from the outer glass being compromised, the silver getter flash on the glass bottle becomes white and faded. Check it out, but best I can tell from this picture, this one looks OK in that regard having what appears to be a solid silver flash.

Hopefully others will comment, but my guess is that the tube is probably OK, but I can't be sure.

I also have a few tubes with noticeably angled internal structures, and I could not tell the difference in sound between the bent one and a straight one of the pair I bought...not with those I have tried anyway.


But being Psvanes, these are not NOS right? Did you buy them new or used?

Especially if new, but either way, both having clear flaws, it would seem they most likely left the factory in less-than perfect condition and the seller would be aware of this. And especially if you paid normal prices, expecting normal tubes, and with no indications from the seller that these are not up to normal standards... Even if they work fine, I personally would write the seller and explain one is bent and the other has a glass chip inside, and nicely ask for their suggestions, giving them a chance to offer a good solution.

Makes me wonder also if the tubes you got matched the pictures? If not, this is another possible misrepresentation. And if so, for future reference, especially with NOS or old stock tubes, I always look very carefully to see that they have the same construction and no apparent flaws. Tubes of teh same type and from the same company can test fine and as matched, but be different construction and/or vintages and sound different.

Most often on eBay, where I buy most tubes mostly from well rated tube sellers, or if I have bought them direct from a tube seller, they will go out of their way to make things right. And if they do not offer a friendly solution 1st off, followed by more insistence that you feel you were unfairly treated and hope for a real solution, I would probably go through eBay or PayPal and see what they will do for you....chances are they would get the seller to do the right thing.

My thoughts anyway, and good luck!

Will
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morp
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #2 - 08/28/20 at 19:14:17
 
Thanks Will! I purchased them used (though given the nature of PSVane treasure globes, not cheap even used), and in the photos the seller posted, these tubes were in perfect looking condition.

When I shared the photos, the seller (in good standing on the headphone forums) apologized, expressed dismay with shipping, and refunded me in full immediately without me asking. Great guy and great experience.

Mostly, I'm wondering whether there's anything to be salvaged here. If you think it won't damage the amp if there's a problem with a tube, I'm inclined to plug it in and give it a try.

Thanks,
Richard
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will
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #3 - 08/28/20 at 21:42:16
 
Oh that's cool...I am glad you got it sorted out so well.

I may be wrong, but I can't quite imagine the bent innards, being so combined with the glass, that it could change in shipping without breaking the glass and vacuum...but since it sounds great, that is great!

I suppose it is possible a hard hit in shipping could cause the glass chip inside? And if so, it would seem the blow could have damaged a connection.

I have had occasional input failures with shorts but not many. And with those that did fail, I was not aware of any ill effects to the amp, though I was right there and cut them off fast.

I hope others will comment if they have had troubles with input failures.

But based on my limited experience, I guess I would look closely in the tube insides, comparing it to the tube you know works, and see if all connections and wires look good. And if so, since it worked before it was sent, I personally would be inclined to try it with my finger on the on/off switch in case it starts to short and spark, killing the power quickly. But this could be just me!!!!!

If no one else comments that knows better, calling Steve is probably a good plan.

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armstdav
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #4 - 08/29/20 at 04:41:46
 
I've received both used and new tubes with off-kilter innards and glass chips. I've never thought that the bent innards were from rough shipping, although I guess that's possible. I've always chalked it up to less than optimal manufacturing quality control. The tubes with wonky insides always worked fine. Glass chips are a complete non-issue; they happen in new tubes and old tubes alike. If a tube had lost vacuum, it'll blow immediately like a light bulb. If the tube works and sounds right, it's all good.
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morp
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #5 - 08/29/20 at 19:21:36
 
Thanks for all the guidance Will and armstdav. I just plugged it in, it lit up bright for a split second and I thought I'd lost it, but now it's working beautifully Smiley Will, I had my finger on the on/off per your direction just in case!

I think the issue is that the seller shipped them well packed (bubble wrap + cardboard all around each tube), but horizontally instead of vertically, and shipped them ground across the country. Over the course of a week, gravity and jostling would probably pull the innards downward and potentially cause damage.

Interesting unrelated observation: When I received these treasure globes, I also received a EML 274B rectifier to try in place of a 1940s RCA 5u4g I really liked. The rectifier added more weight, definition so that piano key presses sound fully formed, but when combined with the Treasure globes sounded too rich/full and I lost too much air in between notes. Then I swapped the stock headphone cable for one made of pure silver, and the space is back, but retaining the weight and it brought the sound a bit more upfront. As always, audio is such a journey..

Thanks again!,
Richard
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will
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #6 - 08/29/20 at 21:59:52
 
Good news Richard!

I was thinking the tube was a sealed vacuum all around, so I can't quite imagine the tube's insides shifting and remaining stable in a bent position without damage to the vacuum, but my imagining could be off. Really glad it works well! Also glad the chipped one works.

I have had input tubes that flash for a second at startup leading to early failure. But a few have lasted well with flashes each startup. The pair before my current inputs, some earlier Siemens (RCA label) ECC189s, one of the pair flashed a little on startup from my first use on. I am pretty sure that for the most part they were in my Torii or 2-3 years, and the reason I pulled them was not failure but I thought they had started sounding soft, like they eventually do. And most days I turn the amp off and on two to three times a day, and listen maybe 6-8 hours a day on average.

On the other hand, I have had some inputs flash only several times before failure. Hopefully yours is not in the latter category!

Sounds like your silver headphone wires pulled the new tube sounds together nicely. Interesting. I have heard what was to me too clear/brittle sound from some silver plated copper wires I have used, some worse than others, and some more subtle. But with soft annealed pure silver and especially UP-OCC silver, I have found it clear, but also smooth and warm. So I have had difficulty understanding a general distain for "silver" a lot of folks seem to have. It sounds different to me than UP-OCC copper made the same way, and of the same purity, but not overly bright or necessarily less warm. But like a lot of things in audio, I guess it depends on a lot of things....metals, purity, dielectrics, gauge, making methods, how it is used in a design...

So glad you got your tubes sorted out and they sound good!
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morp
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #7 - 08/30/20 at 23:02:02
 
Thanks again Will - so far so good! I also power the amp on 2-3 times per day, and so far the tube with the glass chip is holding up nicely and sounding great. At some point, I'll probably be curious enough to buy a pair that has not sustained damage to see if there's a difference. These tubes sound good enough, in most ways surpassing both the NOS Telefunken and NOS Reflektor 1975 6922s, to warrant that experiment.

I couldn't agree with your last line enough: "But like a lot of things in audio, I guess it depends on a lot of things....metals, purity, dielectrics, gauge, making methods, how it is used in a design...". The stock Hifiman balanced cable is made of silver and copper in a rubber sleeve, and sounds fairly good and musical. Since the he1000v2 has now defeated multiple high end headphone challengers and just has a sound identity I like, I thought I'd see if I could extract that last 5% with an aftermarket cable. Enter the Lavricables Grand, in retrospect about as silvery as you can get:
https://www.lavricables.com/cables/grand-20-core-silver-hifiman-susvara-he1000-e...

Upon swapping the cables, it changed the sound dramatically: bringing it more upfront, brighter, increased dynamics, sharper so that there was more separation. And I frankly didn't like the change with the NOS Telefunken 6922, which was the input tube in the Taboo at the time, which is already airy, emphasizes highs, and increases separation so the end sound was too clinical and bright. Swapping to the Treasure Globes made the sound sweeter, and brought it "down" a bit, more liquid, and it just works well.

I've noticed the same thing with Silver - it's not just black and white: Silver vs. Copper, but rather everything about the way the cable is made matters.

Thanks,
Richard
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will
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #8 - 08/31/20 at 01:46:21
 
Hey Richard,

That is good news the tube is holding so far. And thanks for your thoughts on how they compare with your impressions of some highly respected 6922 tube types. Interesting.

Also, being a speaker/room lover, and not having issues with family members or neighbors not liking the music, I have not dug deeply into headphones. But making my cables for some years, and always working to refine them further, I remain interested in thoughtful impressions of cables and wires...so thanks for that too.

With the few I have tried, some quite pure silver can act more bright than smooth but clear UP-OCC silver, and good litz can be clearer by comparison to the same make solid core wire also. Your impressions of the GRAND 20 CORE SILVERs you linked seem to support this. But as you illustrate, well done brighter and cleaner can be a friend or foe depending on all else.

It is cool to have so many tuning choices in this quest!
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Jeff of Arabica
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #9 - 08/31/20 at 06:06:06
 
I too had an enlightening experience when I upgraded my headphone cable from my Ultrasone Signature Pro headphones - to my Taboo MKIII - using the Lavricables silver cable.  This cable is the real deal.  Incredible value considering the quality of the cable and materials used.  Not cheap but also not stupidly overpriced.  The cost of goods to make this cable has to be significant and the asking price is reasonable.  Definitely didn't regret the purchase.
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morp
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #10 - 08/31/20 at 23:07:27
 
Hi Jeff - I purchased mine used, but agreed that the quality and workmanship is the real deal for the price. It's not cheap, but the margins cannot be as large as some other brands given the amount of materials and the hand braiding necessary.

Will, it keeps flashing every time I start it up so I perpetually have my fingers crossed Smiley If both of my treasure globes hadn't sustained damage shipping, I'd mail you one to try out in your system - they really do sound sweet in the best way.

Regarding cables and wires, the analytical part of me always thinks they shouldn't make a difference, but my ears hear a difference so I just shrug and trust my ears. I will say that to my ears, diminishing returns come VERY quickly with cables/interconnects. How do you make your cables and do you have any fun pictures to share?

Thanks,
Richard
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will
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #11 - 09/02/20 at 20:05:22
 
Hey Richard. Sorry I have been slow in replying. I missed the notification..... I would love to hear those tubes, but am so particular with my balance, I would want to try a less expensive one with a similar signature first. Historically, I tend to find E88CC/6922s a little overstated in my systems, unless I compensate with other tubes to calm and open complexity. And even then, Telefunken E88CCs, though very good at what they do, especially great micro detail compared to most 6922 types, still tend to be a little too forceful for me.

Also the Torii and HR1s, both warmish with pretty strong bass in the balance, I most always end up with lower key tubes that are slightly warm, but open and resolving. So I would say slightly warm is good for me as long and they are spacious, and have great micro detail without tending to hard. Any suggestions for a less costly tube to try?

I have experimented a lot with wires and cables, and analytically it makes lots of sense to me that cables can sound so different. But I have explored it over many years, and there are just so many things that contribute to the best sound, each part of the cable effecting everything else.... I am guessing that many high end cables work a lot from established models that are relatively easy for them to produce once set up, perhaps paying less attention to sound in development than I like to do. Knowing how every aspect of a cable tend to work together, I seem to be pretty lucky in guessing what I won't like about the sound of a cable by looking at it, and all its technical details. There are the usual considerations....metal, purity, continuity of the draw/structure, dielectric, solder....but ultra refinement in choosing which good solder, ultimate gauges, grouping of smaller gauge versus using bigger wires, wire direction, geometry, shield (or not), core material (or not), exterior damping material and amount (or not), sound specific ends....

Many do apparently pay good attention to sound, but I think it is easy to make calculated design decisions without enough attention to an exceptional spectral balance without murkiness or a senes of hyper detail anywhere, of transparency and resolution with no veils but still musical, excellent micro detail, complex spatial information and speed that is clear but smooth, natural and well integrated bass weight and speed, etc.

With good materials and design that can reveal the sound well, it is hard to go bad wrong, but having dug into the challenge of unveiled resolution and clarity with excellent balance, transparency, and musicality, each sound choice gets really important. And to me, it gets tricky.

I don't have good pics of my current making process, and since I finally feel like my cables are getting exceptional, I am considering bulk wires and parts I prefer, and possibly making some cables for others. So I am still not sure about posting the details from something like ten years of experimenting. Probably should, but not sure yet.

There are so many ways to make decent cables, many approaches apparently working. And choices clearly depend on where you are starting from, and where you want it to go. Seeking warmish, smooth and clear neutrality, the VHAudio Silver Recipe appealed to me, and I made my first cables using variations on it....good ideas and materials the good parts were pretty costly, but seeming quite a bit cheaper than comparable commercially produces cables, I dug in. I did like them better less damped, using minimal teflon tape wrap to stabilize the wires on the core.

Like it all, everything matters.

Wink

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morp
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #12 - 09/03/20 at 19:48:28
 
Hi Will,

As always, I ask a simple question and get an extraordinarily thoughtful response. I agree with your sentiments that the 6922s are often bereft of modesty - they're the type that show up, walk in the door, and announce "Here I am! This is my sound signature!". I have tried the classic NOS Telefunken, Siemens, Reflektors from 1973 to 1975, Voskhod 1975 Gray Shield, Mullards, and a handful of others that I hold in lower regard, and none of them have that soft, calming, tiptoe into the room and sneak up on you feel that it sounds like you're going for.

I have never found a tube that has this: "slightly warm is good for me as long and they are spacious, and have great micro detail without tending to hard". As you mentioned, the Telefunken have great air and detail, but can be sharp, overly breathy, a little cold, and absolutely try hard. In my Taboo, I've been using NOS Tungsram EL84 output tubes to add some warmth and balance out the clear 6922s, and as mentioned, the EML Mesh 274B was a revelation when running it with the Telefunken.

Going for warmth in the 6922, in my limited experience, has consistently cost me too much clarity and resolution to be worth it. For instance, NOS Matsushita 6DJ8 are not terribly expensive, but ended up too warm and rolled off the highs, which led me to pull them from my system in a half hour.

The delicate relationships you mention below remind me of buying a laptop. It's borderline impossible to get CPU/Video processing power, light weight, low heat, and low price. You usually only get 2, and sometimes you can get 3, but it's not possible to get all 4. Audio is like that, except instead of 4 variables, there are 30 Smiley

If you do decide to sell some of your cables, I'd love to give some a shot in my small system. My system has so few components (Just Laptop via USB -> DAC -> Amp -> Headphones) that each change has the ability to make a significant difference.

Lastly, and unrelated, listening to you talk about the sound signature you prefer, I wonder whether, like Lon, you'd be a good fit for a pair of Sennheiser HD800s. They are warm, extremely musical, and you don't lose much resolution for the privilege. If you have not tried any of the classic Sennheiser line, a pair of HD6xx would be a great starting point at low cost.

Thanks,
Richard

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Lon
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #13 - 09/03/20 at 22:13:02
 
Interesting Richard. I often find I hear things differently than others. Though I really love my Sennheiser HD800S I wouldn't call them warm at all. I use a ZROCK2 with them and that tames the leanness and a bit of brightness that I experience without them. . . .

I keep moving back and forth between different 6922 types. Lately I've just settled in on the 6N5P from Steve. Not only are they so well selected and tested that they are "all that they can be" but they get away from that 6922 "look at me" signature in important ways in my system.
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morp
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #14 - 09/03/20 at 23:40:25
 
Hi Lon,

I think many of your sound impressions, and the way you think of audio, are spot on so I respect your perspective. Maybe I think the HD800s are warm since I tend to use warmer tubes? I also think Warm may not be the right adjective - I mean comforting and forgiving.

Compared to the other high end headphones I've tried including ZMF Verite Open, Verite Closed, hifiman he1000v2, Audeze LCD-3, and JH Layla, only the Audeze LCD-3 is darker and more forgiving but at the expense of detail/resolution/comfort. The HD800s is at such a wonderful balance point of comfort, legendary musicality, forgiving/relaxed sound signature, but while retaining good resolution. It's not a microscope, but it has strong details while still keeping you all the way attached to the music, which I have found to be rare.

Thanks,
Richard
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Lon
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #15 - 09/04/20 at 01:02:51
 
Well, that does make your description fit my impressions more appropriately. I agree with notes of their detail and resolution and clarity.  I found that they are better headphones than the Audeze LCD-2 that I have, but I find that ZMF Ori (black limba) and Oppo PM-1 are on the same level, but each different. What I find interesting is how each sounds with a particular amplifier. The Sennheiser in my house sounds best with the CSP3 or CSP2+ I have each with the 25th Anniversary mods; the Oppo sounds its best with the Taboo Mk IV with 25th Anniversary mods, and the ZMF Oris really shine with a PS Audio GCPH amplifier--this combination really has gotten better and better with a ZBOX and ZROCK2 in front of it, and may be my favorite way to listen to headphones.

Since I discovered the ZROCK2 I have to have one for headphone listnening--they make a very significant difference to all the headphones.
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morp
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #16 - 09/04/20 at 19:56:20
 
Hi Lon,

Listening to you talk about the ZRock makes me want to try one Smiley What do you do with it?

I haven't heard either the ZMF Ori or the PM-1 so I appreciate your impressions. I'm also in agreement that headphone/amplifier pairings are so critical to good synergy. In the absence of other headphone amps (and because I do love the Taboo), I swap tubes to find the right match when I'm not too lazy.

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #17 - 09/04/20 at 20:08:10
 
What do I do with the ZROCK2? I use it to adjust the tonal balance. It is very easy to find just the right "fit" for the headphones. . . I find it really a magnificent tool--I am never as happy with a headphone/amp pairing without it in the chain as I am with it. I put it right before the preamp in my two Decware based systems (in the case of my main system which also has a ZTPRE it comes after the ZTPRE and ZBIT and then into the CSP3), and in my headphone only system (PS Audio amp and Oris) I have this chain: source to Wyred for Sound Remedy to PS Audio NuWave DAC to ZBOX to ZROCK2 to PS Audio GCPH amp.

The ZROCK is particularly helpful in my systems with speakers because the tubes best for speakers and room response are not necessarily the best for headphone use. . .without the ZROCK2.





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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #18 - 09/04/20 at 22:26:37
 
Thanks for the quick response! Really interesting, and great point about running both headphones and speakers. I'll need to check one out in the future for sure. I take it there's a significant difference between using the ZROCK2 for EQ vs. using software EQ (which I don't do anyway).
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #19 - 09/04/20 at 23:45:45
 
I can't answer that. I don't do computer audio, stream, etc. and don't do any software, EQ or otherwise. I'm a disc, analog or digital, person. Others have hinted here that there is a difference.
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will
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #20 - 09/06/20 at 23:44:48
 
Thanks for your education on headphones Lon and Richard. I had some catching up to do in this conversation. Though I have the notification thing checked, I have not been getting them. Seems to happen now and then. Now if I can just remember to turn it off and back on from the thread page, maybe it will restore the settings.

I have two pair of pretty nice headphones, some 6XX Sennheisers, and 7xx AKGs. I like both, but overall prefer the AKGs, more comfortable on the head for me, and soundwise. I find the Sennheisers to sound just fine, nice bass, but for me a bit dark in the low mids, a bit slow, and a bit too rolled off. So I bought a woven cable from a Chinese seller that I think I recall was said to be 5N silver, and it is woven so that it has a hollow/air center. Should be good. I suspect this will bring the 6XX in for me, smoothly bringing up speed, clarity, and detail. I have not taken time to put the jacks on yet, but will soon.

I have used EQ for many years, and find it amazing for fine tuning the room, and finally very refined and complete sound. I started with strong bass modes once I moved to the Torii from and SE34. So I made bass and mid-bass room treatments, and some integrating reflection solutions. Then I made a very precise EQ. I found problem frequencies by making a high dB, very narrow Q, and swept from bottom to top with music that was on bassy balance side, the challenge areas clear riding slowly through the sweep. Then, beginning with carefully solving bass frequencies, I moved into more subtle adjustments based on the sweep results, and until I liked the sound most. After bass, most all were very narrow and low dB Qs, from 0.2 to an occasional one around 1 dB. All by ear, it was a tricky and took time, slowly refining it over all recordings. But sounding great pretty quickly, it was just every so often a recording would show a bad frequency area, and I would subtly adjust for it, keeping with it over months. In time it was fairly flawless and the fine-tuned areas are quite powerful collectively, really good for making it all sound realer, supporting my musical immersion in a big way. Here it is a very powerful tool for the deep beauty.

That said, with a ZRock over EQ, my guess is that the tube part of the EQ sound is primary, increasing good tube-like qualities of resolution and space, along with the benefit of Steve's best idea about how the EQ works best in a broad sense...the slopes and change points etc. On the other hand, with really careful EQ, and a really good computer setup, you can very likely get more precise sound adjustements based on the system and room.


Back to my request for a recommendation from you Richard on 6SN7 type tubes that would not break the bank if I did not like them, and my hope for "slightly warm is good for me as long and they are spacious, and have great micro detail without tending to hard." I am guessing semantics and systems are at play in your suggesting this is not very possible from an input tube. I have had a number of 7DJ8/PCC88 and 6DJ8/ECC88 types that have fit this criteria pretty well for me, and some nice E88CCs in the power position of the CSP3 that are pretty good at this too, the power tubes showing the 6922 forceful effect less.

I am guessing my idea of slightly warm is less warm than you imagine for one thing, but also, I have 8 tube positions to tune with between the Torii and CSP3. And I have done extensive modifications with resolution and smooth fine detail a priority. To me complex detail and space are sorely unrecognized mitigators of hardness.... More spacious fine detail breaks up hard detail into more complex, less concentrated detail, opening some aspects of macro detail into a complex of finer detail while feathering edges, so reducing edginess and hardness.

But I had this going on before the modifications with a front end that is really good at fine detail and space, and careful tuning. It is just better now. If interested, you might look for a late 50s or early 60s Siemens made ECC88, or ECC189. The latter is a little clearer and faster I think, but both are good to me for complex fine detail and space, and not being too bassy, while having decent bass definition, and still being "slightly warm." Mine are RCA labelled and were pretty low cost. A telltale to be more sure it is the right tube from that maker and time, is the getter riser that goes up to the hallow getter ring. On these tubes it is flat metal with a ridge pressed down the center vertically, and one side has the upper part of the riser cut at a little angle under the getter ring...

Also, Richard, if you would like me to let you know about ICs if I get to selling them, if you can PM your email, I will put you on a list to remind me who is interested in further developments.

Isn't this all amazing! I love the music and I love being able to get it to sound so good, which is supported by these conversations!

Cool
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #21 - 09/09/20 at 21:03:41
 
Wow a lot to respond to here!

After 4-5 moves, I no longer know where most of my old CDs are, and I no longer have a CD player at all so I operate exclusively with digital files at this point. I'm always on the lookout for higher quality, or the next thing that can make digital files sound more "real", and that's a major reason why I like Decware tube amps - just a much more solid connection to the music.

My next upgrade is with adding a Chord M Scaler to my chain. Given its expense, I don't want to like it, but it's supposed to work wonders with digital files so we'll see Smiley

Will, no rush with responding. Life is busy, especially now, so whenever you get around to responding to posts on an audio forum is just fine!

Interested in your thoughts of the HD6xx with the silver cable! ~15-20 years ago during the nascent years of headphone audio, a handful of upgrade cables to the HD600/HD650 were all that were available. It was common wisdom then to add a silver cable to the HD650/HD6xx to bring the sound more forward and lift the famous "Sennheiser Veil".

I have no experience with EQ at all so it feels like I have a long road to go. I'll document these notes so I can try them slowly.

Ok back to work! I'll respond to the rest later today.

Richard

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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #22 - 09/10/20 at 01:52:48
 
... ok back to it Smiley

I don't have much experience with 6SN7s. In fact, the treasure globes were an impulse purchase since I'd long heard they were some of the very best tubes in any format, and seeing a pair available used for half price caused me to jump on them + pick up a 6SN7 -> 6922 adapter.  I'm currently having a couple of adapters made (nicer 6SN7 -> 6922, dual 6J5 -> 6922, 12AU7 -> 6922) and am looking forward to trying tubes in all those different families in the coming months.

I'm consistently in awe of your dedication to the process and hard work of refinement. Do you keep a notebook of impressions as you make changes? How do you keep straight how you felt when you changed 3 of the tubes vs. 6 of the tubes vs.... I feel like I'd get confused quickly. I agree that each individual tube in that setup probably makes less of a difference, or rather due to the nature of being 1/8 instead of 1/1 for me (or 1/3 if you include the EL84s) there is more nuance to changes.

Your Siemens recommendation reminded me that I have a NOS 1963 Siemens E88CC that I really like. Given all the changes I've made over the last month, it hasn't gotten a chance to play with the new rectifier/fuse/headphone cable/ICs and when given that chance, sounds wonderful. It'll be in the input tube slot for a while I think Smiley

Lastly, I love this description: "More spacious fine detail breaks up hard detail into more complex, less concentrated detail, opening some aspects of macro detail into a complex of finer detail while feathering edges, so reducing edginess and hardness." I think that's the case with most things in life! I do find that if I hear too much micro detail, it takes me out of the music, so it's always a balancing act.

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #23 - 09/10/20 at 05:16:28
 
I've always been a 6SN7 fan and when I owned my Torii I ran 6SN7s in the 6922 positions with the adapters. I preferred my NOS 6SN7s to any of the 6922/6DJ8/7308s I tried. So many options with Decware amps!
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #24 - 09/11/20 at 01:17:32
 
Hey armstdav,

I wonder if you can point me to a nice 6SN7 for me to try. Or it sounds like you no longer use a Torii, so maybe you have some you might want to sell? So hard to talk about tubes, all of us from different perspectives and settings....but.... I prefer neutral spectral balance, transparency, and to subtly sweeten things musically, very slight warmth, but without sacrifice to naturally complex fine detail and space throughout. I have an aversion to tubes balanced too far toward bass and associated, slow bass and dark veils that mask. Also averse to those that are very clear, but with the detail concentrated rather than complex, making them hard and rigid.

Any advice?

Thanks,

Will
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #25 - 09/11/20 at 05:30:20
 
My favorite NOS tubes are the Sylvania and RCA 6SN7GTB; both are relatively cheap and sound better than most of the new production tubes. I've tried the higher end Psvane/Full Music/Shuguang Treasure tubes (albeit all used) and don't find them appreciably better, plus the quality is spotty. My favorite new production is the Electroharmonix 6SN7; I could live with it if NOS dried up.

There are also megabuck NOS 6SN7s out there, but I just can't spend that much.

I have none for sale, as right now my preamp is a Modwright LS-100 and my amps are Atma-Sphere M60s, both of which use the 6SN7. I tube roll frequently on both.   Smiley
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #26 - 09/11/20 at 16:26:48
 
Got it. Thanks for the tips!
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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #27 - 09/14/20 at 00:48:41
 
Richard,

For amp work I try to keep good notes, and was pretty successful for a couple of years. But as time passed, used to the sounds of preferred parts, I kept up for the most part, but got more slack. For ICs I tend to keep ones I really like for reference, while refining others. And with the rest, like tubes, feet, power, power cables... I have a pretty good memory for how they all sound, but the magic is so much about synergy, I still love to explore combinations of known things every so often.

As to front ends, not to confuse things, but have you researched ladder DACs? A few friends who have long had access to really good analog references found the Holo DAC to be naturally musical. Kitsune HiFi is the US rep if you are interested in checking the latest versions out. Also I guess you have checked out Denefrips? Holo was hot in serious listener circles, and may still be, and it seems Denefrips gets a lot of air play these days. I have not heard either myself, but they sound interesting. Getting the fragile and fine stuff seems to be a lot about excellent timing and it seems good ladder DACs can be good at this.

Also, not sure how deep you have gotten into computer hardware and power, USB cables, USB convertors, computer OSs, and software players and settings..... but to me, collectively, these make about as much difference as a good DAC for music that is revealing, complex, and smooth without smearing. If the computer is putting out a rough signal that truncates the very fine information, it is just is gone..... Along these lines, I wonder that a lot of developers may not have fully explored these important aspects of a front end. And if not, they may not have heard the potential of revealing nuances of inner detail, edge complexity, harmonic complexity, ambient information.... so these critical "real making" aspects of sound may not be there fully in a lot of DACs.... As bad, if designers think you have to mask or "warm" aspects of the sound to solve deeper digital resolution problems, to me these "artifacts" can be about  as bad as those they are trying to fix. And finally, if they are not expecting to be able to get the very fine stuff musically, then this lowers the reference standard for user expectations and possibilities. I feel pretty sure much of anti "digital" bias comes from these sorts of issues.

I guess I was lucky to get in with some folks who did not let conditioned biases get in the way of seeking to pull the most from digital. With a lot of help from Eric Hider, the Tranquility DAC developer, and a lot of experimenting, ideas of "digital," or "analog" don't really occur to me. I have heard "digital," it has just been a long time since it has been a notable issue.

The early 60s Siemens E88CCs I have look very close in construction to the ECC-88/189s I described above except with gold pins. And they sound like family, but pretty different to me. In some ways they are so well balanced, articulate and clear they can seem a little technical (though they do have some complexity within that). Here, in the right mix, this can be good, but it is more of a mixer tube for me. The particular ECCs I mentioned are gentler so less tight and defined. And less pushed, they seem more rich in complex fine detail, textures, harmonics and complex ambient space.

To check my memory, I put the Siemens E88CCs in the power position of the CSP3. Compared to the warmish but well defined and detailed Mullard E88CCs (parasol getters) I usually have there, the Siemens relative lack of warmth and more up front clarity was a little shocking at first. Tending toward a little hard, but bringing out space very nicely, I started rolling rectifiers and ended up with a compelling sound.

I most often use old mesh plate RGN1064 or AZ11 globes in the CSP3 (4 volt/±1 amp and needing resistor and pin adjusted adapters). These tubes are calmer power-wise, and less dense than our usual 5 volt/higher amperage selections, tending more toward ease, space, fine detail, texture and generally, pretty subtle warmth I like. An unusual move for me, I put in a rectifier that I once loved for its slightly warm clarity and speed, a Chatham 5R4GWY. Becoming a little veiled as everything else improved I had stopped using it. A "potato masher" style tube, I think they seem pretty heavily damped comparatively, and this was likely what caused it to sound a bit veiled to me as my system became better at musically resolving fine detail and space. But with the very clean Siemens, though the Chatham made the whole fuller, less resolving, a bit slower and softer, I was able to punch up the pre stages a bit, bringing out lucidity and dynamics, and it sounds pretty good on first impressions.

This reduction in resolution made me think of too much "micro detail." I am wondering if what I call fine detail is more micro than "micro detail," being fine enough "particles" to fill in micro detail spaces that can cause it to feel like excessive detail? I am thinking "fine detail," when there is enough, brings out complexity and completeness, potentially resolving a sense of overly "detailed." In this context, though I can imagine too much "micro detail," I am wondering if I can have too much of what I call fine detail...the fragile stuff a lot of digital front ends, or tubes, or cables, or amps or whatever can easily harden and/or not fully reveal.

I think I get what you are saying about 3 as opposed to 5 tube positions with our amps. And compared to the Taboo, the Torii does have a lot of choices for power tube sound, as well as two pair of VRs for filtering the input and output tube's power. So I imagine I do have more complex tuning abilities, but I think all are equally powerful in terms of influencing the sound, so with three more tube positions in the CSP3, it can be a labyrinth. But I tend to come up with standards in given positions and play from there. For example, I mostly keep in OB3 VRs for my power tube filters, and 75C1 VRs for my input filters. I might play with those now and then, or adjust with different OB3s for a subtle change, but I almost always come back to this combination after playing with other VRs. And they really do have a powerful influence since they define the foundation of power to the signal tubes. Less voltage drop from the VR pushes the inputs and power tubes more, and more voltage drop, relaxes them more. And though I do tend to roll through inputs or power tubes individually now and then, all else the same, I usually end up back within a certain range of choices there too.

All else close, the CSP3 is a favorite place for fine-tuning to me, a tube change there pretty easily adjusting the whole system sound. I might just roll through a bunch of rectifiers pretty much knowing what to expect from each, but the magic one in the overall mix takes trial an error for me. And if something is interesting and almost there, then I might try another position in the CSP3 or in the Torii to pull in the whole, usually without changing other tubes.

I do have tubes that are too open mids and top, some too forceful in general for me, some too soft down low, some veiled, some with the detail tending toward rigid..... But for those tubes that balance pretty well on their own, when put into a well balanced set of tubes, I am not sure I have run across a tube with too much of what I refer to as "fine detail."

It is so tricky to talk about these things, each specific tube having a sound range in various settings. But tubes do have characteristics when compared to other tubes....pretty useful as pointers I think. And a tube that sounds great from opening up the sound in one tube set can make another set hardish, so I generally gravitate toward tubes that are at least close to the balance I love on their own. But since anything in a component or system can contribute to, or cause truncation, accent and/or create hardness or muddle, color the sound excessively.... I tend to like all system parts to balance pretty well on their own for the most part. That said, as they are in my system now, these over clean Siemens together with the under clean 5R4WYG create a pretty good balance. The Chatham is probably a little lacking in full resolution for my tastes, so I suspect it may not last...but a good sound so far, and an interesting test.

Also, there is no doubt for me, that having two pretty transparent pre stages to help balance system sound, and the sound across many recordings styles, is a powerful tool. Also nice for balancing tone, dynamics and lucidity with tube changes as my Siemens/Chatham experiment indicated.

But even with the best tuning, I find there is a threshold for the ZBIT and CSP3 where too high on the attenuator will harden and overstate the sound, and too little, will reduce dynamics, body, and lucidity too much. For me, having two stages helps make both have a fairly wide working range though, which can be useful. I often will tune one lower, and the other higher, or visa versa to get the best sound for a recording. The ways each effect tone and sonic character, complimentary but different, are pretty useful. The CSP3 (the way I have it tuned) is quite transparent, but also has a lot of rich tube lucidity and complexity. And the Zbit is musically transparent, but with a simpler sonic character. I am glad to have both to help find a good balance. As I think of it, I have been "gain riding" so long, I probably lose track of how powerful a tool it can be...balancing the pres together with the amp a big deal for the baseline sound of my system, and an equally big deal, I love how easily that base can be adjusted for tuning different recordings.

Shew, a lot of territory...I am tired. Smiley

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Re: Broken tube question
Reply #28 - 09/16/20 at 05:55:56
 
Wow Will! It took me 15 minutes just to get all my notes down for tubes/combinations to try and things to listen for. I can't imagine how long it took to write that. As always, I really appreciate it!

I'm actually moving away from a ladder DAC and trying a Chord Qutest at the moment. My DAC prior to this little guy was a Schitt Gungnir Multibit, which I really like. Given how much I enjoy my Chord Mojo when traveling, I wanted to see what the bigger Chord sound was like going into the Taboo.

I think the Qutest is better 80-90% of the time, but it is distinctly less "musical" than the Gungnir MB. The Gungnir's notes just last a little longer, connecting notes better and allows just a stream of continuous music to carry you away. The Qutest is more densely detailed and analytical (I'm using the third filter, warm) and at times sounds less euphoric/anthemic than the Gungnir.

As you say, I think all audio is tweaking/tradeoffs. There are passages I know where that get me out of my seat, and get my blood moving, and the Qutest is almost too incisive, dissecting the soaring music and leaving a good amount of the blood on the floor (ok that got gruesome, but I think you know what I mean). Again, it's still better, and better by a large margin for most music, but losing some of those passionate elements is a loss. I probably need to try warmer tubes that are less revealing to pair with it and see how it goes.

Thanks,
Richard
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