No reason it wouldn't work. . . it could be a line input.

Thanks for the replies.  For the tube preamp I’m considering the following:

- CSP3 ($1339)
- Schiit Freya+ ($899)
- Linear Tube Audio MZ2 w/ remote ($1390 after 10% off)
- PrimaLuna Evo 100 Pre ($1999)

The old YBA integrated would be only for 6 months or so before getting another power amp.

After reading every review imaginable, and watching today’s interview of Steve Deckert by Steve Guttenberg, my conclusion is sonically, the CSP3 is the best for me.  The part I’m struggling with is no remote.  I must have a remote for volume.  In the interview, Steve explained why he doesn’t have them across his entire line.

I could control volume in Roon with my iPad, and I’ve only listened to music via the computer for the last 12 years, but I don’t want to feel boxed in if I break out the Ah! Tjeob CD player or get into vinyl one day.

I realize there’s the switch box plus remote for $500, and another 2 pair of RCAs to buy, so another $200. $700 feels like a lot to spend for a remote control!

That’s my struggle.  I feel the CSP3 and Linear Tube Audio MZ2 are both much better made than either the Schiit or PrimaLuna (perhaps prejudiced against China, I admit).  The MZ2 I’m guessing is more lean than Decware, and I prefer warm.

Thoughts?

I'm on a different track these days.  I have a Hegel H90 integrated amp.  I don't really need a preamp, I'm only looking for tubes to add a holographic soundstage and improve the tone.  I could use the CSP3 as a tube buffer (correct me) and control the volume with the Hegel.  Is that a sane thing to do?

Thanks to advice above, I have to be careful on the gain, but that should be easily sorted.

I'm just not sure if running a tube preamp into a solid state integrated amp (thus 2 preamps) is committing some audiophile sin.....

DS, you know audio well and you would not have any issues with a CSP3 and your integrated amp.

But I think you would get the most benefit from a ZBIT and a ZROCK2.

Being able to utilize the full voltage of your source (adjustable via the ZBOX) grants a dollop of realistic body to the sound, and also allows the dynamics to "breathe" so to speak. And the ZROCK2 will not only further enhance these characteristics but give you a wonderful control on the tonal and spatial aspects of the sound.

I would never have imagined these two would transform my system as they did until I lived with them and then learned I couldn't bear to be without them. My experience with these have been with Decware amps (SE84UFO3 Monoblocks and a Taboo Mk IV) but I have no doubt they would provide benefit to yours.

I don't really know what to say about that amplifier. I haven't heard it, I haven't really studied it online, read reviews etc. It might be great. But. . . .

Going back to your posting in the PS Audio forum if your stated goal is to find more recordings listenable, i think the one component that can accomplish this is the ZROCK2. It's designed to tailor the sound, the other amplifier is not. With the ZROCK2 you may have the best of both worlds with the DSD JR. Bypass it or just dial in a little bit for the great recordings, use the EQ more judiciously for the others. I'm waiting for the third one to get off the testing bench and come my way because I now can't have a system without one, it does what I need it to, allow me to listen to so many recordings. Mine works so well with my DSD, and my Oppo UDP-205, and I know it will with the NuWave DAC it will soon be paired with.

My advice, if you want to start off with new components, start with the ZROCK2, it may be the end of your hunt. The only bad thing is there's none sitting on a shelf at Decware ready to send to you--you have a three month or so wait.

And it doesn't really work that way with tube equipment. If the ZROCK2 needed more tubes Steve would have designed it with them, it doesn't need power tubes for example, just a signal tube and if you opt for it there can be a second rectifier tube within the chassis. In a lot of ways the fewer tubes needed the better chance there is for true fidelity if you know (or have invented!) your stuff as Steve does.

Not for some time. . . the last DACs that I had with a tube was a Dynaco last century, and then last century and early this century a Decware Sony modded one and a Decware TEAC modded one. For the last ten years or so I have used PS Audio, a PWD Mk 1 that I then had upgraded to Mk 2 and then to the DSD.

A tubed output was nice but I needed better actual digital to analog conversion than these models offered, that really got better technologically this century.

Okay. I have the NuWave DAC in a headphone system and you can either upsample to 24/96 or go "native." I prefer the upsampled, not by much.

With the ZROCK2 I really like Windom. I really had to work to get the right "load" of Windom and tweak a bit but when I did I can't listen to Snowmass any longer. With the ZROCK2 I can benefit from all the improvements of Windom and also get the tonal balance my room and system needs.

I still think all you need is a ZROCK2. That's my stance and I'm sticking to it.

That's cool. I don't use computers for music, I play discs. Eight years ago one of my friends, a digital engineer set up his Mac Mini in my system and showed off the resulting sound. Ultimately I preferred my discs, and I have never pursued that route. That was many discs ago! The only problem I have with discs is storage issues. I cope.

Best of luck. In your shoes I'd put in an order for a ZROCK2, get in the queue. You can always cancel, at the worst you'll forfeit a 10 percent deposit.

Yes, I am pretty darned sure you will be charged 10 percent on ordering, and the remainder on shipment, unless you choose PayPal which will be the entire amount on ordering.

I've been collecting cds since about '87 and I'm in this for MUSIC. I have thousands and thousands. I have no need to stream etc. If I had been impressed with the sound I might have made a move then, but . . . I'm very happy as I am with my systems, and no time to spare to rip and store etc.

Yes, I honestly think you may just need a ZROCK2, I'd at least start there unless you want to spend money and order both a ZROCK2 and ZBIT or ZBOX.

DancingSea.

I agree with the sage advice Lon has offered.

I say keep the DSJ, I traded mine for the DSD SR. right before Windom was released. You might want to try to reload Windom. Windom smoothed everything out and added some warmth for me. It was the Sr. so possibly a little different on the DSJ.

A majority of my favorite music is not recorded or mastered very well. Currently I'm stuck away from home. I'm using an AQ Dragonfly Red with a Macbook.

The Dragonfly plugged right into the UFO25th it can be rough. It's a wild experience of wow and oww! You hear all the digital slop and are amazed at the same time.

Now that it's running through the ZR2 and Zstage it's an enjoyable experience. The nasties from the Dragonfly are still there, they just don't matter as much. With a high end DAC your ability to take a dry and lean recording then inject weight, life and richness into it, really is magic!

After playing some records through the ZP3 it's ruined and I need to wait a few hours before I can stand it again.  

The point I'm getting at is the DSJ is a fine DAC and you might regret selling it in the future.

The months of waiting are rough, very worth it.

Aloha Lon & Groovy Sauce,

You guys may be entirely correct for sure.  The ZRock2 website description does give me pause.  In several places it stressed "for systems that don't have tone control".  My system does have tone control already via Roon.  I have an entire parametric EQ that I've used extensively, even with the help of forum audio engineers giving me EQ recipes. This makes me wonder if the ZRock2 is really what I need.

As Lon has probably read of my musings over on PSA, my experience with the whole upsampling DSJ (and HQPlayer) world has been that amazing recordings sound incredible.  But lesser recordings sound much worse than before the DSJ came into my system.  Many long time beloved CD's that sounded just fine prior to the DSJ, now are revealed as being mediocre.  My experience is this has painted me into a corner.  I find myself gravitating to a relatively narrow group of extremely HQ recordings and eschew lesser ones, like 80% of my long time beloved CD's.

My theory is that the DSJ is very revealing, which is well proven, it's their design goal.  And yes, very HQ recordings sound better on the DSJ than I ever thought music could.  Yet my overall enjoyment of music has decreased since the DSJ entered my audio world.

I miss just being able to play a CD and it sounding good, and enjoying the music.  Which is how it was prior to the DSJ entering my life.

This leads me to believe that for whatever reason, upsampling is just not my thing.

What attracts me to the Border Patrol is that he has an entirely different approach with the R2R architecture, the vintage Philips DAC chip, and no over or upsampling.  With free shipping and a 14 day return policy, I see no harm in at least exploring the Border Patrol.  I wouldn't sell the DSJ first, but rather do a head to head shootout.  If the DSJ wins, then I know.

But the many Border Patrol reviews (Stereophile, Guttenberg, Michael Livorgna, etc) all describe a ZRock type of full bodied sound.  My thinking is rather than use another box (ZR2) to sort of "fix" the DSJ, why not get a DAC that does what I want from the start?

It seems like a worthy exploration.  I'd only be out $20 in return shipping if the Border Patrol can't keep up with the DSJ.

Hi Lon, I'm not disagreeing with you. The idea is to try the Border Patrol.  It will arrive in a week.  And then decide if the ZRock2 seems needed.  If yes, get the ZR2 as well.  To go in stages

Steve's production schedule makes it difficult.  I'd rather just order them all at once and see what works.

Yes, I'm using AQ Colorado XLR's.  I think it's just the nature of revealing gear.  Lesser recordings will be revealed as they truly are, lesser.  Great recordings will be revealed as they truly are, greater.  I'm curious if less revealing gear can achieve a balance to my liking.

I’ve been corresponding with Gary Dews, the owner/ designer/ builder of Border Patrol gear (tube amps, preamps, DAC, power supplies, etc).  He wrote the following to me:

“ What should come across from the reviews is the BP DAC doesn’t sound like the modern up sampling converters such as the PS Audio or Benchmark. Those DACs might have perfect lab measurements but they are unlistenable on all but a very few recordings.

I want to play all my music for hours on end and be entertained and enthralled but never fatigued or worn out. A system should invite you to listen, not drive you away.

The BP DAC has a natural, relaxed tonality. It tells you what’s in the recording without dissecting it. It is easy to listen to for long periods.”

This mirrors my high resolution experience.  I ordered the Border Patrol SE-i  DAC yesterday.  Have also asked Sarah to ask Steve about given I have the Roon EQ, if he thinks the ZR2 or ZBox would be best in my system.  Asking Steve directly via email was not successful.

Will report back here soon!

It’s a worthy exploration for sure.  I believe Gary is being honest in his opinion rather than it being a way to hustle his DAC sales. It’s just a different DAC philosophy than PSA or Benchmark.  And Lord knows there are many different philosophies in the peculiar world of audiophiles  ;D

And I think both of you are wrong about DAC's.

Anyone with any sense knows that Denafrips is the brand to go with!

Every other DAC pails in comparison. Lol

DancingSea, Keep us posted. I do love my DSD and don't see a need to look for anything else, for not at least

I've heard good things about the BoarderPatrol DAC and am looking forward to your comments on it.

When you mention having a hard time listening to poor quality recordings what really sticks out to you that makes it unpleasant?

You might want to try reinstalling the DSJ firmware on a freshly formatted usb. When upgrading to Windom took me a lot of tries to get a good load.

All I will say is that my Denafrips Aris II is lush and full bodied.

Hi Lon - I heard back from Steve.  He said that both Roon and the ZRock can create the EQ shelf.  He implied there’s no difference there, or at least he didn’t express a difference.  The difference is the ZRock adds the tube stage which improves the tone.  My extrapolation is that the Roon EQ with the ZBox would be about the same as the ZRock.  It would come down to the effectiveness of a digital EQ vs an analog EQ, which is above my pay grade to determine 😂

Lon - after much gnashing of teeth, and frankly, in large part based upon your enthusiasm for the ZR2 spread across multiple websites, I have decided to order the ZRock 2.  Just the base model.

And you are correct, if one pays on the website with a credit card instead of PayPal, it s 10% now, the balance upon shipment. Over the phone, Sarah can do the 10% down route with PayPal, just can’t do it through the website.

Thanks again for your guidance, patience and good cheer.  I hereby nominate Lon as Decware Global Ambassador!

Does it work to use a RCA Y adapter to connect two devices to the ZRock?  For instance, a DAC and CD player?  Only playing one at a time, of course.

Thanks! I was a smidge late and misjudged my negotiating tactic, someone else got it.  But I’ll be on the lookout.

That’s a great idea!  I think the SYS only costs $49.  Curious to hear your report.

Interesting report.  I wonder what about the Decware switch is inherently less degrading than the Schiit box?

In other news, my ZRock2 plans have been shelved due to impedance mismatch.  My Hegel has an input impedance of only 10,000.  The EQ part of the ZRock would be unaffected, but it’s not ideal for the tube stage.  It’s simply too much to spend to not have it humming on all cylinders.

And my other question is on the CSP3 webpage (quoted below), it talks about "Left and Right Line Level Output Controls".  Is this essentially a balance adjustment?  My wonky room benefits from the Model 30's balance knob.  I boost the right speaker to bring the image back into the center.  Does the CSP3 line level output controls allow the same?

Thanks

"C) Left and Right Line Level Output Controls.
These are used to dial in the gain of this preamp so that it is perfect with any amplifier.  You can adjust the outputs to between zero and six volts.  The trick to this is also simple.  Just turn them all the way down, turn on your amplifier, raise the master volume to around half-way up and then slowly adjust the output level controls to reach your normal listening level.  This guarantees a perfect match with any amplifier regardless of its input sensitivity and power.  These can also be used to adjust left/right balance between channels."

Dancing, the CSP3 will work the way you wish it will. I think it would add quite an element of depth and dimension to your system sound.

I myself have never been satisfied with a tubed pre and a solid state amp because I grew up with my Dad and grandfather's tube systems and I just know what is missing, but it is an improvement in important ways to many all solid state system.

Price check on a CSP3, please.

If you get all the goodies you'll be closer to $2600.  That's where I eventually ended up -- but by sending it back for upgrades.  

I'm not sure how it does it or if it's any different from how regular volume or balance pots work on an amp but I think the CSP3 knobs regulate voltage out and thereby regulate the volume.  You can "turn off" either channel completely if you want.  So, yes, you can balance the channels as you need.

Steve is the one who told me this when I had slight channel imbalance.  Imbalance can be caused by tubes, recordings, rooms, all sorts of things.  Generally I don't need to tweak mine though.

Can't wait to hear how it works for you ... in a year+!      Maybe a used one will come around?  I think you'll love the sound and flexibility one offers.

Lin, the LRS are super power hungry with a sensitivity of lower than 84db.  The UFO’s, the Rachel, even the lesser Torrii don’t have the juice.  The Mystery or Torrii monos might be able to do it, but that’s way beyond my budget.

Stereophile measured the LRS sensitivity at 80db..

DancingSea wrote on 10/09/21 at 17:17:41:


I have never heard a Primaluna. I do want to say that I don't think the Decware sound is a "traditional tube sound." To me every Decware amp I have heard veers from a traditional classic tube type sound and seems instead to exhibit both the best characteristics of solid state as far as clarity and transparency and of tube as far as dimensionality and solidity of imaging. Not a traditional tube sound at all.

Cannot agree with you more, Lon!

In reply #56 above, DancingSea stated:

I assume that they wouldn't add the CSP3 to my position #174 for the ZR2.

DS, when I added to my order, I called Sarah, and she added it to my current order.  If you ordered online, perhaps the system picks up that you are #174, adds it automatically to your current order, but maybe not.  If not, call Sarah and she can make an adjustment so that your CSP3 order is simply added to your current one.  That way you don't have to start over at the back of the line for your CSP3.  BTW, congrats on that decision.

Btw, Tony & Lon, how do you quote parts of a post?

I wish Decware would spend their new fortunes on a different Forum software, like what Steve Hoffman, Roon, and PS Audio uses.

Quote:


Thanks Archie.  It's a bit retro, but works.

I suggest you avoid Costco!  They mix things up daily  [smiley=peanuts05.gif]

Next question, how to make smilies work?

Archie, you are clearly a forum Jedi Master  

Hi all,  I'm sorry to jump in.  I'd like to run my CSP3 as a preamp paired with a solid state headphone amp.  Right now, I use my CSP3 with a ZMF Atticus and a Verite Closed headphones but I'm going to order one of a low impedance planar magnetic headphones.  That's why I need a different amp.  I was thinking about a Taboo IV but I've decided to buy a ss amp and run the whole setup as a hybrid.  My chain would be Chord 2Qute—> CSP3 as a pre-amp —> ss amp.  I was thinking about ordering a Headamp GS-X mini or Benchmark HPA 4 but honestly, I'm not sure if it is a problem with pairing them with the CSP3.  I'm looking at theirs specs but I can see only GS-X mini input impedance (10kOhm).  I can't find any input specs of the HPA 4. I would appreciate any input you could give me. Thanks.

Thank you Steve!  :)

It's going to depend on your exact configuration but I have various cramped components without issue.  However, given where my ZMA sits and the heat it produces I installed an extremely quiet fan behind it.  It really knocks the heat down.  In the picture, the box above my CSP3 holds my ZROCK2.  It was the only way to mount it in the space.  No issues after several years.

The platforms have been very effective.  I used the foam as an afterthought to "mop up" and dampen anything that travels through the spring steel.  The are fantastic under my Technics 1200G which already has very good isolation footers.  I went all in when I got my ZMA in 2014.  Despite being on a very solid base, I got horrendous reconstructive feedback when playing at moderate to loud volume.  I still don't know what in the amp would cause this.  The platform completely eliminated it, even at rock concert volume with my F15s.  The platforms are cheap and easy to make.

Your best bet is to go to a hardware store that has a spring bin.  The ZMA springs are quite a bit heavier than the other component springs.  As I recall, the springs were 3/4" or so in diameter and I cut them in half as they were maybe 2" long.  You need to place them so as to carry the uneven weight -- more under the transformers.  You want the loaded platform to oscillate at a few Hertz which is far outside of the frequency spectrum of music.  I can pound my fist next to my TT and hear nothing through the stylus.

If you have scraps of MDF it's easy to play around with the spring locations but start with one at each corner and add more under the transformers.  You can kind of estimate the spring stiffness and number of springs since you know the weight of the component.  Once at the HW store I was putting boxes of nails on springs to see the compression vs weight.  It's not an exact science but it will get you close.  I use a bradpoint drill bit to cut the pockets for the springs.

Quote:


Just confirming this is true.  I called Sarah and she said if you have a current existing order, any new order will be automatically added to your original order.  The advantage of calling is my CSP3 order was processed immediately as she’s yet to process any orders from September. So if your original order is near the top of the list, best to call as order processing is at least one month behind.

Thus my CSP3 is now also #174 instead of likely #900.  

Moral of the story, if you’re on the list, it’s worth making sure you’re ordering all the Decware goodness you desire before it hits the bench to avoid a very lengthy additional wait for the next piece.

I too have a CSP3 and a (now unused) CSP2+ with dual stereo outputs. I have used these in the past to drive two amplifiers and boy does it work well! These are such versatile components, and every option I've added to them has been a great addition.