Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
03/28/24 at 17:56:38 




Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Is 6 Watts Enough? (Read 4428 times)
Ruleof72
Verified Member
**




Posts: 2
Is 6 Watts Enough?
06/13/20 at 01:44:55
 
I'm a brand new forum member who's looking to upgrade my listening experience by switching to tubes from solid state. In my research I came across Decware and after exploring the site and the products I'm very interested in how I might be able to make it work in my system. My budget is ideally <$2500. Based on that the Zen Triode Integrated (with some upgrades) is appealing.

The issue I'm struggling with is "how much power do I really need". My speakers are ~91db sensitivity and we sit about 9 feet from the speakers. The room is 14x17 and listening levels are typically 75-85db. Online power calculators say I should be fine with 4-5 watts for that level but what about the peaks? I hear that "tube watts are better than ss watts". How does that translate? I plan on reaching out to Steve to get his feedback but wanted to get a sense from the community as well.

Thanks in advance for the help!
Back to top
 
 

Speakers: Tekton Enzo XL
Amp: NAD 326Bee Integrated
Turntable: Technics SL-1210GR
Phono pre: Lounge Audio LCR MKIII
DAC: Schiit Modi Multibit streaming Roon/Tidal
  IP Logged
4krow
Seasoned Member
****


IMAGINE WHIRLLED
PEAS

Posts: 1606
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #1 - 06/13/20 at 13:14:53
 
I had the size of room that you do approximately, and I owned the same amp that you are referring to. I was using speakers that claimed 93db. I cannot say at what level that I listened, but it certainly wasn't background music. I found more of a problem with recording levels being too high or low, more than volume being inadequate. Having said that, there were too many times that I had the amp very near full volume to get where I wanted. I would suggest more in the order of 20 wpc which I am running right now, though it is a SS class A amp.
Back to top
 
 

Decware 34I.3 integrated amp/Forte' 3 bass amp/Velodyne SMS-1 bass mngmnt system/Decware ZOB speakers/Audio Nirvana 8" bass drivers/Xiang Seng DAC/ LR Audio Computer/Rega Apollo R CDP/Emotiva ERC3 CDP/BPT 3.0 power cond.
  IP Logged
RJR
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 100
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #2 - 06/13/20 at 14:48:00
 
Ruleof72,

You state that your Speakers: Tekton Enzo XL are ~91db sensitivity, however Tekton states 96.5dB sensitivity 2.83V@1m.  ~5dB is considerable.  For example, 91dB at 1 watt, 94dB at 2 watts and 97dB at 4 watts (this is where your speakers are at with ~1 watt).

I have a Torii MK3 > Zu Audio Omen Def MK1b and couldn't be happier, though I am looking for bookshelves because I also have 2 JL Audio E110 Subs.

Best of luck!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Ruleof72
Verified Member
**




Posts: 2
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #3 - 06/13/20 at 15:17:46
 
Yes, the Enzo's seem to have some variability in the sensitivity specs. I'm going off of the measurements that Stereophile took as part of their review, which was 90.6db.

You're right, there is a large difference between that and the 96db Tekton claims. Unfortunately I have no way of verifying which one is correct so I'm going with the lower number, just to be safe.
Back to top
 
 

Speakers: Tekton Enzo XL
Amp: NAD 326Bee Integrated
Turntable: Technics SL-1210GR
Phono pre: Lounge Audio LCR MKIII
DAC: Schiit Modi Multibit streaming Roon/Tidal
  IP Logged
Brian
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 897
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #4 - 06/15/20 at 04:55:55
 
Hello,
For your $2500 budget, you could change both your amp and your speakers with the Caintuck Audio model Betsy speakers @ $500 (Alnico magnets $220 more) and either the model SE84UFO @ $1000, model SE84UFO2 @ $1300 or model SE34I.5 @ $1500.

Or for more efficiency and impact, the same speaker but with the Lii 15 inch driver for $850.

I don't know if these combinations would be an upgrade over a Decware amp with your existing speakers or not, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Brian
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
alper_yilmaz
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 349
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #5 - 06/16/20 at 21:05:14
 
Hi Ruleof72,

Welcome on board!

Currently, I have two Decware amps.  The SE84UFO25 is driving 91-dB, 4-ohm B&W's (with complex crossovers) and the SE34I.2+ in my bedroom is driving Rega RS1's which are 90.5 dB and 8 ohms.  Please note that these are just the announced specs though.  Previously, I had the SE84UFO in place of the SE84UFO25, and actually I even tried it with my 88.5-dB, 8-ohm ProAc's which was quite fine.

Neither of my Decwares are kidney stone removers, given the relative inefficiencies of my speakers.  Yet, the sound from both amps are to die for, particularly the SE84UFO25.  I hear every detail and in such a balanced way that I seldom turn on my Copland push-pull tube amp, which is also another great piece of gear.  With classical piano and operatic vocals, there is occasional clipping in my systems, but again, I am willing to compromise.

My experience with most high-efficiency single-driver speakers has not been very good.  Using some Omega speakers as well as Zu Druids in the past, I always struggled with the bass, and in most such speakers, I hear a shout effect.  However, please note that I have not done any room treatment, etc., as I do not have a dedicated listening room.  Most other forum members here have much better experience than I do, so I would definitely listen to what they have to say as well.

If I were you, I would not rush things; i.e., one thing at a time I would change in my signal chain.  Personally, I would start with the SE84UFO with the upgraded caps, as well as some decent set of cables.  I would listen to it with your existing speakers for at least 3-4 months till the system settles in.   You might already fall in love with it; so rather than investing in speaker, you can look for upgrades in your front end, like a good DAC or a better phono stage, etc.

Of course, if you do not like the combination even after the break-in period, you can start looking for speakers which we have so many alternatives these days (it was not like this 10-15 years ago, to the best of my knowldge).

Cheers,

Alper
Back to top
 
 

Mac Mini
Audirvana
Rega RP6 w/ Ania Pro & Rega Fono MC MK4
Rotel RCD1070
Hegel HD30 & Copland DAC215
Fezz Audio Mira Ceti 300B, Decware SE84UFO25, Decware SE34I.2+ & Copland CTA405
ProAc D28, B&W DM630 & Rega RS1
Stein & BlackNoise filters
DH Labs cables
  IP Logged
alper_yilmaz
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 349
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #6 - 06/16/20 at 21:14:59
 
By the way, the SE84UFO25 is only 2.3 watts per channel but it is louder than my 6-watt per channel SE34I.2+.
Back to top
 
 

Mac Mini
Audirvana
Rega RP6 w/ Ania Pro & Rega Fono MC MK4
Rotel RCD1070
Hegel HD30 & Copland DAC215
Fezz Audio Mira Ceti 300B, Decware SE84UFO25, Decware SE34I.2+ & Copland CTA405
ProAc D28, B&W DM630 & Rega RS1
Stein & BlackNoise filters
DH Labs cables
  IP Logged
Lin
Ex Member



Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #7 - 06/17/20 at 04:33:41
 
SE84 louder than a SE34i? Huh
Must have been an error in the testing procedure.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
alper_yilmaz
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 349
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #8 - 06/17/20 at 08:21:25
 
Interestingly, it is...  I have not used any device to come up with test figures, but when I use the same speakers and the same inputs to both amps, I hear the EL84-based amp louder.
Back to top
 
 

Mac Mini
Audirvana
Rega RP6 w/ Ania Pro & Rega Fono MC MK4
Rotel RCD1070
Hegel HD30 & Copland DAC215
Fezz Audio Mira Ceti 300B, Decware SE84UFO25, Decware SE34I.2+ & Copland CTA405
ProAc D28, B&W DM630 & Rega RS1
Stein & BlackNoise filters
DH Labs cables
  IP Logged
4krow
Seasoned Member
****


IMAGINE WHIRLLED
PEAS

Posts: 1606
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #9 - 06/17/20 at 20:26:34
 
Maybe a way to test in that case is to hook up one channel to one amp and the other channel to the other. Of course, it would be unlikely that you could match volume of the two amps, and might have to go for max volume with each amp.
Back to top
 
 

Decware 34I.3 integrated amp/Forte' 3 bass amp/Velodyne SMS-1 bass mngmnt system/Decware ZOB speakers/Audio Nirvana 8" bass drivers/Xiang Seng DAC/ LR Audio Computer/Rega Apollo R CDP/Emotiva ERC3 CDP/BPT 3.0 power cond.
  IP Logged
Lin
Ex Member



Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #10 - 06/18/20 at 03:59:11
 
"I have not used any device to come up with test figures, but when I use the same speakers and the same inputs to both amps, I hear the EL84-based amp louder."

SE84 -1.5 volts for full output
SE34I - 2.5 volts for full output

Huh? was the emoticon that I used.
Not interesting, 2 watts are not louder than 6 watts.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lin
Ex Member



Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #11 - 06/18/20 at 04:11:18
 
"I had the size of room that you do approximately, and I owned the same amp that you are referring to. I was using speakers that claimed 93db. I cannot say at what level that I listened, but it certainly wasn't background music. I found more of a problem with recording levels being too high or low, more than volume being inadequate. Having said that, there were too many times that I had the amp very near full volume to get where I wanted. "

4krow, did you ever try a preamp with the SE34I?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
alper_yilmaz
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 349
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #12 - 06/20/20 at 12:57:34
 
Exactly, mostly it is about the input sensitivity-related, I guess.
Back to top
 
 

Mac Mini
Audirvana
Rega RP6 w/ Ania Pro & Rega Fono MC MK4
Rotel RCD1070
Hegel HD30 & Copland DAC215
Fezz Audio Mira Ceti 300B, Decware SE84UFO25, Decware SE34I.2+ & Copland CTA405
ProAc D28, B&W DM630 & Rega RS1
Stein & BlackNoise filters
DH Labs cables
  IP Logged
alper_yilmaz
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 349
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #13 - 06/20/20 at 12:58:58
 
By the way, I use both of the amps with preamps in front.  When I try the same preamp in front of both with the same sources, speakers, cables, etc. I still hear the smaller amp louder.  It might be the UFO output transformers, maybe?  I do not know...  :)
Back to top
 
 

Mac Mini
Audirvana
Rega RP6 w/ Ania Pro & Rega Fono MC MK4
Rotel RCD1070
Hegel HD30 & Copland DAC215
Fezz Audio Mira Ceti 300B, Decware SE84UFO25, Decware SE34I.2+ & Copland CTA405
ProAc D28, B&W DM630 & Rega RS1
Stein & BlackNoise filters
DH Labs cables
  IP Logged
4krow
Seasoned Member
****


IMAGINE WHIRLLED
PEAS

Posts: 1606
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #14 - 06/20/20 at 21:30:13
 
Lin,

Good point about the input sensitivity of the amps. As a guess, a CD player usually has an output of  2 volts. In some cases, not enough for the integrated to put out all that it has to give. Of course, there were CD's that were recorded too damned hot to begin with, so that was a good reason for a volume control...HA! Accounting for variables between the two amps, it is only rational that 6 is more than 2, agreed? Not a hell of a lot of difference in some ways, but math is math. The perceived difference in the two as far as loudness would be a bit more than 3-4db.

I had wished to try a pre-amp with the integrated, but only did so with lesser equipment, and though the experience was improved in some ways, using the Racheal by herself came to be the preferred method.
Back to top
 
 

Decware 34I.3 integrated amp/Forte' 3 bass amp/Velodyne SMS-1 bass mngmnt system/Decware ZOB speakers/Audio Nirvana 8" bass drivers/Xiang Seng DAC/ LR Audio Computer/Rega Apollo R CDP/Emotiva ERC3 CDP/BPT 3.0 power cond.
  IP Logged
Lin
Ex Member



Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #15 - 06/21/20 at 00:45:43
 
a_y,

Maybe you didn't notice the distortion as much with the smaller tubes. Undecided
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lin
Ex Member



Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #16 - 06/21/20 at 00:59:26
 
4krow,

2 to 6 watts wouldn't mean much in a lot of systems, in some it would make a significant difference.
How much difference would there be between 102 and 106? Smiley

I was at Decfest several years ago and was talking off to one side, all of a sudden I realized the amp had been pushed past what it could give. It was a Rachael and the listeners turned the music up a bit too much (it was pretty loud); Steve came in and swapped it for a Torii IV, problem solved. Cool

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 23305
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #17 - 06/21/20 at 03:08:27
 
It's the magic of that bypass mod. Density!
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
  IP Logged
4krow
Seasoned Member
****


IMAGINE WHIRLLED
PEAS

Posts: 1606
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #18 - 06/21/20 at 23:42:33
 
Lin,

 In hindsight, I would have been happier with a Torii Jr. at 20 watts for my system. The Rachael was just a tiny bit short (without a preamp).
 I agree that a few watts will matter in systems, or maybe rooms, where the speakers are high sensitivity, hardly being pushed with one watt to attain high volume. That was certainly my experience with Khorns.
I really raise an eyebrow when I see low sensitivity speakers that would require some serious power to begin with. Pushing a boulder uphill I'd say.
Back to top
 
 

Decware 34I.3 integrated amp/Forte' 3 bass amp/Velodyne SMS-1 bass mngmnt system/Decware ZOB speakers/Audio Nirvana 8" bass drivers/Xiang Seng DAC/ LR Audio Computer/Rega Apollo R CDP/Emotiva ERC3 CDP/BPT 3.0 power cond.
  IP Logged
alper_yilmaz
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 349
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #19 - 06/22/20 at 07:38:23
 
Hi Lin,

Re: distrotion, yes, that might be the case as well.  I do not think I hear any clipping or overdriven signal, but tube saturation is so smooth at times, it is difficult to tell by just listening.

Actually, in a lot of recordings, mixing engineers add a bit of overdrive to the bass tracks to make them sit better in the mix!  :)

Alper
Back to top
 
 

Mac Mini
Audirvana
Rega RP6 w/ Ania Pro & Rega Fono MC MK4
Rotel RCD1070
Hegel HD30 & Copland DAC215
Fezz Audio Mira Ceti 300B, Decware SE84UFO25, Decware SE34I.2+ & Copland CTA405
ProAc D28, B&W DM630 & Rega RS1
Stein & BlackNoise filters
DH Labs cables
  IP Logged
Lin
Ex Member



Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #20 - 07/09/20 at 22:53:06
 
I have 15 watts now and it is too much (90 dB speakers). Smiley
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2914
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #21 - 07/24/20 at 01:05:49
 
So many variables...efficiency ratings, amp ratings, how different tubes effect the amp output, room size, speaker placement, source voltage, pre used, listening comfort zone, even speaker cables ... acceptable volume assumptions are a labyrinth to me!

I have a Torii MKIV (25 watt), HR-1s (rated 92.5 dB), and a "t" shaped room that is difficult to accurately calculate since there are several shallow alcoves, and also partially open segues into other spaces. So the main listening area is far from a straight up rectangle, but roughly 28x15. One end ±1/3 of the wall is open, a walkthrough and a pass through into the small kitchen. On the right, in effect part of the listening area, is a small bump-out creating about 1/2 of a small dining area, the other half in the listening area proper. And on the left is a bump-out that is an entry way to the house. The kitchen and space extensions combined add up to ±28 x 10. I guess the main listing area is a little over 400 sq ft, and with extended spaces, something like 700 sq ft.

My amp is toned back from max using 40 uF power supply caps rather than 47s, a milder than usual rectifier (4V, 1.1 amp), OB3 rather than OA3 voltage regulators, and ECC189 input tubes. Also a similar rectifier in my CSP3, if I use 5V higher amperage rectifiers, or OA3s, my setup can go louder, but I love the sound of these old mesh plate Euro tubes, and OA3s make my amp too forceful sounding for me. My speakers are in the middle of the long dimension of the listening room area (28' without the "t" extensions) and only about 5.5 feet apart. They are angled back a bit, and toed out just a little. So not maxed focus at the seat, but I prefer it that way, with great balance, space and soundstage, and it sounds great anywhere in the room, anywhere in the house for that matter.

I have a Gustard x20pro DAC, balanced outs @ 6 volts, then a ZBIT, then CSP3. This pre stage combo causes the amp to saturate at a little lower volume than with either pre stage alone. But I really like the sound tuning flexibility from gain balancing with both along with the Torii, so keep it this way.

For movies, with a milder source, and just the CSP3 and Torii in the loop, I generally come close to maxing out the Torii volume, and run the CSP3 not maxed, but on the higher side....giving good volume for my wife and I's movie immersion preferences. Fully maxed, I don't tend to get distortion with the DVD source.

But in my late night music sessions, higher source voltage, and both pre stages, though gains are set lower, my favored volume is louder, putting me close to the edge. In fact, with my test track playlist, I usually set the volume by going into distortion on hot notes on a hot recording, and then back it off a bit before listening.

Quite satisfying, it is room filling and captivating, but not ear shattering. If I could get it without sacrifices to the sound I love, I would prefer having just a little more headroom.

I have tried lower power Decware amps here, some with my MG944s which are 94dB, and, with the SE34 being good on a lot of music, but also quiet enough to feel incomplete on others, and too quiet for my preferences on a percentage of movie mixes. I really liked the sound of the speakers, so did not look into more efficient ones. This was quite a while ago, but figuring I could always use more power, I got one of the first Torii MKIIIs.

With DAC sources that are 2.25 to 6V, I have never noticed being able to get meaningful volume increase before distortion from having a pre before my Decware amps....

I can dial in more density by upping the pre stages, but it seems that if the source can drive the amp fully, the amp will distort at close the same output volume with or without a pre. I have not checked this with a meter, but this is the sense I get...more pre gain, the amps need lower attenuator settings to avoid distortion. So unless the source has low output voltage for the amp, in my experience, I have not been able to understand the concept that pres can make the Decware amps I have tried appreciably louder.

Finally, on the borderline with power for my room and setup, rather than letting "low power optimism" guide my decisions, I would try to calculate speaker efficiency, source, and amp power in relation to room conservatively, trying to be sure there is a little excess rather than potentially having to struggle with the edge.

My system, room and tastes anyway.
Back to top
 
 

All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
  IP Logged
Lin
Ex Member



Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #22 - 07/25/20 at 13:59:36
 
I used a 22 watt triode push/pull amp with 85 dB 1w/1m speakers and never felt that I needed more power. I wonder how loud some people listen; a simple SPL number would be helpful. For me right around 90 is max, usuallly lower.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
ArtMan
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 167
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #23 - 07/25/20 at 16:41:55
 
One factor that often gets overlooked is the level of your background noise. I presently live in the mountains and have measured the background noise in the low 40's db range.

My room is approximately 18' X 13' with a ceiling that starts around 11' and goes up to around 22' on the other end. It is not a large room but has a larger volume that many. I run my Caintuck Audio Lii 15's (97 db) from my Decware SE84UFO amp (2.3 watts) and I rarely go past 12:00 on my volume control. Most of my listening is done between the 7:00 and 9:00 position. I rarely go past 85 db in my listening and much of what I listen is in the 60-70 db range.

Occasionally the HVAC fans comes on and if I want to hear a somewhat equivalent level of detail, I have to turn the volume up. I can sometimes hear the refrigerator when it turns on or the kitchen exhaust fan when it is running. Other than these types of noises, the background noise level if never above 45 db.

If I lived in an urban area, I would suspect my indoor background levels would be somewhat higher. That directly effects how loud you really need to play your music and be able to hear it at levels similar to life.

Just my two cents.
Back to top
 
 

Acer Laptop, Curious USB cable, Holo Audio May L2 DAC, ZRock 2, SE84UFO25, Fast 15 Network, Caintuck Audio Fast 15, Decware DSR3S/DHC2/ZFOCUS cables, Swiss Digital Fuse Boxes, Cryotone tubes (5AR4-WC, EL84-WC X 2, ECC88-WC, 0A3-WC X 2, 0D3-WC, 12AU7-WCL)
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2914
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #24 - 07/25/20 at 18:50:56
 
Good points Lin and ArtMan.

My room has 9.5' ceilings for something less than 1/2 the space, and a few inches less than 8' for the rest. This includes the "t' step outs and the partially open kitchen associated with my listening area.

I was reticent to post SPL earlier as I had not checked for a few years, so not sure I was remembering correctly. "My" dB meter is in my wife's phone too, and she was out of town.

I remembered readings something like Lin's though. With serious listening levels, on rare occasions around 90 for max peaks, and much lower in general.

My sound has improved a lot since then, and as it turns out, what feels louder to me now is actually quieter using the same "meter" at my listening seat.

Our house, being adobe, and out of town, is pretty quiet. With a sensitivity setting of .33 second, at my listening seat, ambient is 34-35 average with peaks 39-41, refrigerator running.

I first checked a test track where a few hard notes of a sax part can cause distortion if I am a little high on gain but within my serious listening levels. Not unusually, this one sounds to me like it is in part some distortion on the recording. Most of the song, watching peaks, they were ±55-75, and the sax solo got up to 84 max, but most peaks did not go much above 80.

Trying a few other test tracks, I got similar results, the last one, with a loud "crescendo" section, it was riding for a while in the mid to high 70s with regular bumps around 80-81, and a max peak of 85. This was getting a little uncomfortable sounding for me, but I wanted to see what my absolute max might be at this point.

Undoubtedly another variable...my sound is very dense, resolving and fast. Guessing this combination is sort of power hungry. With fast, full and complex bass, and really excellent complex detail and spaciousness across the spectrum, it does not have to be very loud to sound really good. Most of the time I don't get close to the above dB levels, only with serious listening in the seat. Contributing to this are the HR-1s full body and rich resolution potential. To me the originals; then the same speakers with Bob's more recent modifications; and my modifications on top of those, they are quite lively now at low levels, but have always really sung louder....dynamics, bass complexity, detail macro and micro, and soundstage depth, width and saturation in big space....all become really amazing and transporting louder. So I crank it in my "immersion" sessions.
Back to top
 
 

All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
  IP Logged
Nick324
Senior Member
***




Posts: 79
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #25 - 08/23/20 at 23:25:45
 
Hey all, 16x24 room with 18’ tall ceiling. 93 and 96 db sensitivity speakers. 3 watts sounds good. 6 watts sounds excellent. Volume is relative though to the music genre in my opinion. For all easy listening and classic rock i am fine with low wattage. Rap and other tracks that require extreme bass output get a completely different set of speakers, SS amps and multiple large subwoofers.
Tubes and fine speakers to me are not for reproducing club music at high spl. This mentality and choice of equipment mixing keeps me happy and allows me to avoid costly equipment damage. YMMV but that’s how i do it. Low wattage has some limitations in my opinion and i simply found my own workaround. Happy listening
Back to top
 
 

Innuos Zenith MKIII > Lampizator Baltic3 > Vinnie Rossi L2iSE > SE341.5 or SE84UFO25, >> Heresy, K-horn, Philharmonic BMR, Ωmega Super 6XRS Alnico, LSIM703, Falcon LS3/5A, Steve's TR’s, Tube-Tots.
  IP Logged
yostjacob
Verified Member
**




Posts: 17
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #26 - 10/08/21 at 00:48:12
 
My opinion:

I was noodling on the same subject.  I used REW and measured -20DbFS pink noise at my listening position.  I put a little mark on my amp.

I put marks for 2W, 6W, 20W, and for S's and G's I did the max that my amp speaker combo supposedly can do without distortion (96Db at my listening position 96-20 = 76).

I measured my -20 and at FS and got the correct range.

Then I listened to a variety of music that I enjoy.

What I found by observing the measurements was that everything I listen to was well into the Loud-for-me.  I think much over 80Db is LOUD and makes my ears hurt, 85-90 for loud portions is great.

Metallica's S&M album basically lived between -4 and -2 Full scale.  6W seemed fine because of how compressed it is.  

The only thing I felt didn't come out well was a couple of Symphonies I have high res recordings of.  They want some more power or more sensitivity.

My pseudo 20W trial run also didn't seem to get the loud portions right to my mind.  But the manufacturer rated max run was too loud for me.

You have more sensitivity so its probably less of an issue.

AES recommends that the reference level ish be around -18 Db full scale, the europeans recommend -24 and SMTP wants 83Db at -20 (which is LOUD).

even with my low sensivity speakers most of my listening is between 1-2 watts.

Ramble over.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
E.T.
Verified Member
**




Posts: 17
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #27 - 08/17/22 at 04:02:25
 
I have a rudimentary understanding of this that I hope some more experienced people here may be able to help round-out.

I was reading on another forum about someone talking about low-watt SET amplifiers and their La Scalas. This person was monitoring the watts required to play at certain levels, and found that 100mW was sufficient for the listening level to which they were accustomed, with 250mW at the peak. At this point, isn't the power produced by an amplifier rather moot? Seems like 1 watt would provide a huge amount of headroom in this situation, let alone six watts. (I too am getting the Zen Triode Integrated and pairing it with Klipsch Heritage speakers...Cornwalls.)

Yet, I read about people saying that it won't do the trick for hip-hop, dance, electronic, and other bass-heavy genres. I guess I do not understand why that would be if 6 watts is far in excess of what you need to drive super sensitive speakers. The point of the amplifier is to amplify, right? It seems to me people are making the statement that you'd need 100+ watts to properly do those bass-heavy genres justice, which makes no sense to me if you never use more than the first watt.

I don't mind being wrong here, just want to know what's what. Just based on simple math, to me it seems that a 6-watt x 2 SET amp is just about overkill for the Cornwall speakers.
Back to top
 
 

Wu-Tang Forever
  IP Logged
lazb
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 374
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #28 - 08/17/22 at 04:28:51
 
E T, relax! Stop listening to these mega watt alarmists. You will be much more than just barely satisfied. Those who think otherwise have spent little to no time in the Decware /high efficiency speaker universe. Relax and enjoy your amps with your speakers when you get them!!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2914
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #29 - 08/17/22 at 06:01:43
 
ET, If you listen to a few videos from Steve's setup using high efficiency speakers, or even semi high efficiency speakers, I think you will hear the potential of these particular low power amps with efficient speakers.
Back to top
 
 

All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
  IP Logged
JBzen
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1344
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #30 - 08/17/22 at 14:40:19
 
Quote:
The point of the amplifier is to amplify, right?


By the strict definition of the word Yes!

But in my experience the speaker does the amplification of the unaltered signal provided by the single ended 84.

Those genres of music mentioned in this thread seem to be enhanced to the point of being unnatural when recorded.

If you want natural sounding material to be reproduced one will not go wrong with the 2 watt amp and efficient speakers. Kick drums, double bass, bongo's, conga's, gongs, bass guitar, piano, vocals, on and on will be reproduced in a natural real non-fatiguing way.

The maker of the Decware SE84, Steve, was a drummer first. A drum set relies on the revelation of harmonics to be accurately reproduced. Decware amps does this in spades. His experience shows!
Back to top
 
 

AMC CD8b>XO3>Cambridge CXN2>ZDAC>ZBOX>braided silver/occ> Zrock2>CSP2+>SE84 milflex copper 25th>9AWG silver/copper braid>lii Crystal 10 in Huijgen cabinets. Ortofon 2M Black>JVC QL-F4/Otari MX5050B2>ZP3. Isolation. AC filtering. Room treatment.
  IP Logged
E.T.
Verified Member
**




Posts: 17
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #31 - 08/18/22 at 00:21:22
 
Interesting on Steve being a drummer! That's a tidbit that makes more sense the more I read his stuff on dynamics and the low-powered amp/sensitive speaker combo.

I'll be at Decfest for at least one day this year, so I look forward to being able to hear this type of combination for myself. The spots where I've gone to hear Klipsch Heritage speakers, they were always driven by solid state gear. Then, the only time I've heard tube amps is when they were driving speakers of, say, medium sensitivity. Hopefully by this October, I will have a thousand-fold better understanding.

Am still wondering why people think SS does better in the aforementioned genres than tube.
Back to top
 
 

Wu-Tang Forever
  IP Logged
Doug
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 272
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #32 - 08/18/22 at 00:35:24
 
E.T., Do you listen to lots of hip-hop, electronic, dance, and other bass heavy music, or was your question more of a hypothetical inquiry?  
Back to top
 
 

Jay’s CD2T-Mk3
Denafrips Pontus II
ZROCK2 25th Mods
CSP3 25th & Custom Mods
PAP Quintets with Voxativ 1.6
First Watt J2 or Cary 300SEI
driving Voxativs—no crossover
LFD NCSE driving 15” Woofers
  IP Logged
E.T.
Verified Member
**




Posts: 17
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #33 - 08/19/22 at 07:38:20
 
I listen to all sorts of music, but hip-hop, rock, and electronic definitely get the most run.
Back to top
 
 

Wu-Tang Forever
  IP Logged
Doug
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 272
Re: Is 6 Watts Enough?
Reply #34 - 08/20/22 at 04:31:36
 
This speaker/amp/music combination makes me nervous.  I have lots of experience with Klipsch Heritage products including, Heresy, La Scala, and Klipschorn; and though I have not owned Cornwalls, we know that their bottom octave—the place where the low bass of hip-hop and electronic music resides—is not a strong area of performance for the Cornwalls.  Maybe a ZR2 would be in order here.  

I’m in agreement with JBzen regarding “natural” and “unnatural” music.  Natural sounding music will likely be very good with this amp/speaker pairing, but maybe not so good with music featuring artificial deep heavy bass.
Back to top
 
 

Jay’s CD2T-Mk3
Denafrips Pontus II
ZROCK2 25th Mods
CSP3 25th & Custom Mods
PAP Quintets with Voxativ 1.6
First Watt J2 or Cary 300SEI
driving Voxativs—no crossover
LFD NCSE driving 15” Woofers
  IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print