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Question on which ZMC to go with (Read 6101 times)
hells
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Question on which ZMC to go with
06/10/20 at 23:29:47
 
Hey all!

Thinking about getting a ZP3 eventually as I upgrade my analog setup, but I'm having trouble figuring out which ZMC goes best with the Rega Apheta 3 (http://www.rega.co.uk/apheta-3.html)

I'm a neophyte at analog, but to my eyes it would seem to be the ZMC2? I'm confused to Rega's nomenclature as they say the cart is "Gain setting - High ('On' position for Rega phono stages)"...what's not clear is if that means the cart is low power and needs high gain OR the cart is high power (and thus the ZMC1 except the impedance for the ZMC1 isn't in the range of 100 that Rega suggests)

Thoughts?


Thanks!
- Brandon
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Omega CAM's | Rythmik F12SE | Schiit Gungnir MB | Torii Jr/25th Anniv | SE84UFO | Thorens TD160BC MkII | Tisbury Mini Passive Preamp II | Hegel H190
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Archie
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Re: Question on which ZMC to go with
Reply #1 - 06/10/20 at 23:46:53
 
Brandon, I think you'd be looking at the ZMC1 for that cart.  My Ortofon Jubilee has the same output and similar impedance (5 Ohms).  I use the ZMC1.

That's a fairly low output cart as they go.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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hells
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Posts: 75
Re: Question on which ZMC to go with
Reply #2 - 06/10/20 at 23:50:33
 
Thanks Archie, I still find this confusing because you recommend the ZMC1 based on this being a 10ohm cart, what Rega lists as:
Code:
"Output impedance 10 ohms" 

at the top of their specs.

But when one goes to the bottom of the specs:
Code:
Load settings for adjustable MC stages

Impedance -100ohm
Capacitance - 1000pF
Gain setting - High ('On' position for Rega phono stages) 



They state the impedance is 100ohms, which they consider as:
Code:
"Input load impedance 100 ohms" 



Which is just straight up confusing to me. Why is the input impedance of the cart at the bottom for the MC stage? Wouldn't the output of the cart (10, like you stated) be what matters?
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Archie
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Posts: 2731
Re: Question on which ZMC to go with
Reply #3 - 06/11/20 at 00:04:41
 
From the listing:  "ZMC1, For low output MC cartridges, 1:20 ratio for use with 3~25 ohm cartridges."

I too am confused by step up transformer specs.  I think Steve's work on a slightly different principle with the adjustable knob.  I suggest you give him a call.  He can explain much better than I.

I do know that the 350mV is very low.  I think you're well under 1 volt using the ZMC1 and ZP3.   The ZMC2 may cut that in half.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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hells
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Posts: 75
Re: Question on which ZMC to go with
Reply #4 - 06/11/20 at 00:07:53
 
Which makes sense if we go by Rega's output impedance like you did. But if we go by what they suggest on the bottom of their site to use for the impedance, it's out of that range, as they recommend 100 ohms. Which is where my confusion lies Cheesy

I think you're suggesting that Steve's specs are talking about the output impedance of a cartridge, whereas most vendors must be specifying the input impedance or something?

Yikes, under 1 volt is pretty low. Wonder if Steve ever considered doing a 1:30 or 1:40 setup for these kind of carts.
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Omega CAM's | Rythmik F12SE | Schiit Gungnir MB | Torii Jr/25th Anniv | SE84UFO | Thorens TD160BC MkII | Tisbury Mini Passive Preamp II | Hegel H190
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Archie
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Re: Question on which ZMC to go with
Reply #5 - 06/11/20 at 00:28:11
 
What you are referring to may relate to the step up transformer impedance and not the cart impedance.  As I said, call Steve.  The ZMC1 works for my carts which have similar specs to the Rega.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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GroovySauce
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Re: Question on which ZMC to go with
Reply #6 - 06/11/20 at 17:02:42
 
Code:
Tracking Pressure 1.9 - 2.00g
Input load impedance 100 ohms
Output impedance 10 ohms
Nominal output voltage 350μV
Channel Balance : ≥ 20μV
Separation : ≥ -29dB
 



That's what the specs for the cartridge are listed at. The question as I see it is for the ZMC1 what is the lowest loading it can have with a 10ohm cartridge.

This is way above my pay grade so I could be wrong! Loading the cartridge "sees" is a formula of the phono stage impedance (almost all MM being 47kohms) and the SUT impedance and the cartridges impedance.

I'm guessing as you spin the knob on the ZMC1 it's adjusting the impedance so it changes the load that the cartridge sees.

Ok possible false info over.

My cartridge is 10 ohm and wants to see 470-1000 ohms. I end up around 2 o'clock on the ZMC1 dial.

with a .4mv cart going into the ZMC1-> ZP3 -> Zrock2 -> ZMA -> Caintuck F15s normal listening is around 12-3 o'clock on the ZMA. 3 o'clock is louder than I want to listen at usually.
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hells
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Posts: 75
Re: Question on which ZMC to go with
Reply #7 - 06/12/20 at 06:20:59
 
Thanks guys that’s great information! Archie I did plan on possibly calling Steve when this was more a reality. Right now it’s a super hopeful me wanting this around Christmas time. I hope it all pans out, can’t wait to hear a great analog rig!

Right now I’m torn between the planar 8 or polytable super12. Leaning towards the Rega.
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Omega CAM's | Rythmik F12SE | Schiit Gungnir MB | Torii Jr/25th Anniv | SE84UFO | Thorens TD160BC MkII | Tisbury Mini Passive Preamp II | Hegel H190
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Archie
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Re: Question on which ZMC to go with
Reply #8 - 06/12/20 at 16:50:47
 
Take a serious look at the Technics 1200GR and 1200G.  I have the latter.  After having DD TTs for the last 13 years I can't imagine ever going back to a belt.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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GroovySauce
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Posts: 784
Re: Question on which ZMC to go with
Reply #9 - 06/12/20 at 17:58:05
 
Archie, What is it about a DD TT that makes you not want to goto a belt drive?

Sorry this is starting to get off topic.
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Maximus NEO TT|ViV Rigid Float TA | Phasemation PP-200 or Hana ML | Sutherland Little Loco MK2 | Innuos ZENith MK3 | LampizatOr GA TRP | EMIA Remote Autoformer | Add-Powr Sorcer x4 | Snake River Audio Cables | PAP Quintet 15 1.6 Voxativ |Torus AVR15|AF Treatment
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Archie
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Posts: 2731
Re: Question on which ZMC to go with
Reply #10 - 06/12/20 at 18:20:48
 
Ease of use
Rock solid rotation speed with high torque
Extremely low noise

My only BD was a Pioneer PL100 from the 70s.  A decent TT but primitive compared to today's BD TTs.  I mention this since I don't have extensive BD experience.  When I was looking for a TT in 2007-ish I had a VPI Scout on order.  Fortunately, for me, I found KAB and bought one of his modified Technics 1200MkIIs.  His site has a lot of information about those TTs.  The 1200G is in a whole nother league.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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hells
Senior Member
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Posts: 75
Re: Question on which ZMC to go with
Reply #11 - 06/12/20 at 20:05:46
 
I did consider it at one time, but I've always heard that BD tables were better all things being equal. Though the reviews for the 1200G are great, finding one from a reputable online dealer seems like a crapshoot. Looks like they're releasing a new table, a slightly upgraded but in black version -- Technics SL-1210GAE. Looks snazzy for sure!
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Omega CAM's | Rythmik F12SE | Schiit Gungnir MB | Torii Jr/25th Anniv | SE84UFO | Thorens TD160BC MkII | Tisbury Mini Passive Preamp II | Hegel H190
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Archie
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Posts: 2731
Re: Question on which ZMC to go with
Reply #12 - 06/12/20 at 22:05:12
 
I think Technics is also looking to release an updated version of their legendary SP10 TT.  I think the price is in the $20K range!

There seems to be an irrational debate between the BD and DD crowd.  Bad DD TTs suck but good ones shine.  I think that so long as the bearings are quiet, rotation is stable and correct and vibration damping is good, the TT will be good.  

When I shopped for my 1200G a few years ago I did a vendor search and I called every one of them.  I found one in stock and even got a 10% cash discount!  Their original offering was a limited edition 1200GAE.  The only difference between that GAE and the G turned out to be the type of silicone they put in the footers.  KAB sells his tonearm fluid damping for the G now too.

I give plugs for the Technics because most don't seem to know they exist.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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