Donnie.... I am using the Acoustic BBQ “ Double Smoked” USB cable form  Audiogon forum member “Grannyring”.

I bought it from forum member Roger “HockessinKid” and really like it.  I believe Grannyring now makes a triple smoked BBQ version, so maybe look into that as well.

I believe HK now has moved away from the Acoustic BBQ cable and now uses a different one , so maybe hit him up for further details on a comparison.  

Dom

Roger and Geno,

How do you think the CXNv2 mod compares to Steve's description of the Holo Audio May DAC?

John

Sounds like the Holo is a fantastic unit. But so is the modded CXN. I’m completely happy with mine. The Holo at $5000 vs the modded CXN at $2600. I’m even happier with the extra $2400 in my bank account😎

Donny, I am just using an Audioquest Cinnamon for the USB cable with an AQ Jitterbug pugged into the IMAC.

As for digital cables, I am going between a Straightwire Mega Link and a High Fidelity Cables Reveal.  Not sure which one I will end up preferring between the Cambridge and the Holo.

Well, after only 2 evenings with it, not even burned in yet, it is sounding beyond reproach. Tonight I though I had it turned on and warmed up for 2 hours before I listened. I was wrong, I didn't push the button long enough... Shame on me. We were going to have to do a cold boot as it were, so I turned it on and ice cold it frankly sounded exactly the same as it does when you can toast your bread on it! Amazing as hell for solid state. Even for tubes it would have been amazing.

Most everything I listened to has been 16/44 and many of them, have sounded like they came from my collection of hi-res, or direct to disc master LPs, or even one of my tapes.  

This is the part that is blowing my mind so bad.  

For 40 years I have listened to digital recordings on consumer grade digital gear and been less than impressed.

I blamed the format, the recordings, the gear. Turns out it was primarily the gear, occasionally the recordings.  Format has now dropped out of the discussion.

This is a real eye opener. So if THIS is what 16/44 actually sounds like how could ANY self respecting engineer listen to a $500 CD player, hear what happened to the playback of the recording and be fine with it? It would have been a complete fail. No different than launching a rocket directly into a building and calling it a success and then marketing it.

Assholes.

Hehe, on a more positive note, it's just such a thrill to hear digital recordings, 16 bit nonetheless, sound like analog masters. Literally they do, and I did not know that was actually possible. Almost embarrassed to admit it. Perhaps if I had more than an hour to spend with the $38K Wadia rig that was placed in my listening room 20 years ago...

This is going to be such a game changer for my head. Instead of going to a relative small collection of a few hundred analog masters to get a nut off when listening, I can now have the same sound streamed from an infinitely deep pool of millions.  

The best way I can describe this DAC is to say it sounds like DIRECT TO DISK 45 RPM LP's., but with blacker backgrounds and less colorations and distortions.

If this is what 16/44 actually sounds like then jitter, power supplies, plastic cases, circuit chips, cheap jacks, profit engineering, cables, and all the rest are simply DESTROYING it. Quite literally it is like listening to sandpaper being shoved through a meat grinder. Just pitiful. Almost criminal. With this DAC there is a level of magnitude more density, color, bloom, air, space, weight, all of it. Doesn't even sound like a recording, just sounds real. Remember I am hearing it paired with exceptional speakers and amplification on par with the DAC. If my over enthusiastic ramblings come of as just that, realize that many other reviews of this DAC may not have been conducted in as good a room or on gear this good.

In my own defense, this has alway been my problem with digital as a playback format, especially CD's... it literally costs as much as a vehicle to get it to sound right. Analogue on the other hand would sound better for 1/10th the cost and does.  

However using this (Programmable Gate Array to control the resolution of a temperature compensated ladder of resistors to an insane tolerance) approach compared to using a Burr Brown chip is no different than hand-soldering an amplifier for 17 hours that could have been made with a circuit board in under 2.

With this DAC the sound is so perfect that when you use upsampling be it by the optional chip in the MAY DAC or the DSP in ROON or whatever you use, it is easy to hear how the upsampling glazes things together which until now sounded better and more clear, but in actuality sounds worse and less distinct.

There is nothing wrong with the upsampling chip in the MAY DAC, it's that the DAC is so good it reveals the upsampling algorithm's faults. You can hear the exact same thing with Roon's upsampling, and other software based upsampling.

Well, I couldn't be more happy, my music library just turned from brass to gold. Had I known digital could sound like this I would have sold a lot of shit to get it far sooner. But that's just it. Digital couldn't sound like this for 5K. It took another digit on the price to make it happen. So as far as I'm concerned this is the best 5K DAC there is.  And since it comes from a talented music lover/digital guru in China it is affordable.

As I continue to listen throughout the evening, ROON RADIO, a wide variety of tracks come up and before this DAC, there would be certain tracks or albums that stood tall above the rest ultimately ending up in a nice demo playlist somewhere... now

I swear to God if this is 16 bit I'm going outside and eat some tree bark.... Oh thank God, it was 192.  Diana Krall.  I have never heard her sound this good.  Never.  I have several albums that don't sound this good.  That's probably because the ZP3 phono stage isn't as good as this DAC.  Doubtful, but possible.  

This is the first time I've listened to 192kHz on super familiar music, and it is just almost too good.  You know, you can cross that line where it's no longer entertainment, and becomes terrifying because it suddenly manifested right there in your room.  It bends your reality a bit.

I can't wait to see what happens when it burns in and I put it with the Anniversary Zen Triode amp.  

I mean, usually to hear music this good one after another all night two nights in a row would have been difficult because of record cleaning, tape machine alignments, cartridge set up, tonearm tweaking,  table leveling, humidity, and a dose of luck,...

God bless the passion of the man who pushed himself to create such a Zen DAC.  I will post your name as soon as the website is no longer crashed from the traffic.

This DAC sounds so good that it reveals the distortions and colorations of the analog formats in way that for the first time by comparison come off as a negative instead of positive.  And I will admit, this kind of honesty without the artificial stick in the eye restores my faith in humanity a bit : )

Steve

Very nice!

Replace the fuse and make it Steve's?

John

I find a short massage of Aspercreme works wonders on mine. I put a little extra on the fold and then double back for more pressure.

I am sure that Holo May in Steve's environment sounds fantastic. I love my PS Audio DSD and it's a good thing I do as I can't see affording a different DAC any time soon. But Steve keeps proving what I have found out: these Decware components will NOT be the weakest link.

Quote:


Best prudent approach that I am taking at this time. I almost took advantage of the CXNV2 mod spring sale and then this pops up!

I have also been pondering something else about this DAC.  

Can I really call it solid state?  

Consider this:  An analogue volume control that uses transistors or even relays as switches to achieve a ladder of variable output voltage...  found in many tube preamplifiers...

Is that really solid state?  Nothing you are listening to is going through any solid state parts whatsoever.  The solid state simply is used as a high speed ultra-reliable relay to switch resistors in and out in a ladder to achieve the desired output.

The only thing the signal -- which is a solid silver (35 lbs) dual mono power supply -- sees in this DAC on its way to your amplifier is resistors.  No circuit chips whatsoever.  No capacitors either.  So this thing is literally a DAC that uses no chips or capacitors I the signal path so far as I can tell.  Just a massive power supply feeding a high resolution ladder of resistors.  The whole process is actually a lot more analogue than it is digital.  

One thing I can say is that the spread between bad recordings and good ones is so big now that the bad ones are just like rusty cars you drive by never to see again.  You don't care.  There are so many shiny new ones that you do like that the real problem is finding enough life to hear it all.

Like right now a female vocal is playing with such density and texture and tone and color and vibrance and lucidity and transparency and dimensionality that there is no way it can be 16/44 - and I just looked and it is 24/96...  boy you should here this!

BTW, there is really no such thing as 24 bit in so much as all 24 bit depth is utilized.  You can't push past 20 bits due to noise overtaking the process.  So 24 bits just means the original 20 bit master has been preserved.

Do I see a DAC in the Decware line future?

Hopefully I will have a KTE May ( Level 3 ) to listen to by the end of this week.

I am anxious to try out the USB input.

So as I break this bad boy in, I am listening to it passively and streaming music to it on the coax input from the CXNv2. I have walked in the room several times and just quickly walk out with my head shaking in disbelief.  

If you have ever seen the movie CONTACT where the sphere begins to spin and the walls seem to be shaking and coming apart letting you know that you are about to go into a worm hole... this is the sense I get in my room, the sphere being the exact same size as the movie and setting between the couch and the speakers and part way into the floor which is no longer there...

The fact that it can do this with raw 16 bit material with the upsampling OFF is never going to stop blowing my mind the way it is. I just can't believe it. The music is overloading all my senses to a point where I'm experiencing a new sense beyond the 6th that can see hear smell taste touch and become the music all at the same time and across time.  

It has the sound that has lived inside my head my whole life that I have chased and never heard completely come out of my speakers until now. It took 59 years for our paths to cross and some really good amplifiers ; ) to make it happen but I'm feeling like I just found Jesus or something.

I pretty sure God is actually music.

Whoops, before I got so side tracked by myself, I wanted to mention that I knew going into this marriage between the CXN and the HOLO that a good digital cable won't be optional. And the only way to know where you stand is to have more than one to compare. At this point I'm not going to name names, but In trying to knock the winner off it's pedestal I tried something similarly priced and raved about, and found it to be pretty clinical and a bit lean albeit very resolute. So after listening to it all week and finding myself skipping tracks - a sign that you don't care for the way they sound - I decided to put my original cable back in and that may have a lot to do with why I nearly saw God.  The difference at this level of things is really a lot bigger than one would think.

Also, I forgot that I am listening to my 25th Anniversary Zen Triode amp for the first time with the DAC, and the speakers at the moment are the Zen Master Series model ZF15M Open Baffle crossoverless single-driver speakers.  That could also have had something to do with it.


-Steve

Steve,

Thanks for the update of your revelatory experience. Fun to experience vicariously!


John,

As it turns out I have been exploring digital a while. In the late eighties or early 90s I got a pretty nice Nakamichi CD player, more-or-less replacing a decent B&O turntable with its top cartridge at the time, purchased around 1984. A Marantz CD followed the Nakamichi, then a Rega Apollo and Jolida CD with a tube output.

Switching to DACs, I got what I think may have been Steve's only effort at assembling and selling DACs, the ZDAC, a nice decent value DAC for the time, though having some USB issues. It was then I got into experimenting with cables, computers and player software, and the only time I have spent any time with Coax interconnects using a Musical Fidelity V-Link USB convertor before the DAC....but I think I ended up preferring a glass toslink cable over standard coax. As I recall, the async and conversion did clarify/solidify the sound, but my Coax experience is limited.

My second DAC was a NOS (44.1/16) Tranquility DAC, where blind testing throughout its development, in multiple high end systems, led them to finding their USB implementation being more resolving and "analog" than other connections for their simple but sophisticated DAC. It was Eric Hider who was heading up the project that opened more extensive doors for me about how important what came before the DAC can be. They had also done extensive blind testing with different computer setups, power sources and cables, software, OS adjustments, vibration management, USB cables... I got mine in the spring of 2011, and that computer/DAC setup was really good, and is now quite good to me in a souped up form.

Then liking what I was reading about modifications in it, I got my current Gustard in January of 2017 and have kept it in since. Now, after modifications on all my gear and most cables special made to tastes, trying the Tranquility in my main system again, it sounds beautiful. It is warm, dynamic, smooth and resolving running 44.1K/16 bit, and the Tranquility without the ZBIT, having only RCAs out. Better than the Gustard with files upsampled to 352.8 in the computer? The Tranquility does have a sweetness I may prefer, like a good old friend, but I miss things about the Gustard's finest space and resolution, still smooth, but differently, showing more very fine detail complexity and micro speed especially noticeable up top... and the attacks having more high emphasis, while the Tranquility gives a lower solidity to the attacks that is also quite seductive. Both really nice on first comparisons to me, I will keep the Tranquility in for a while to let it "get under my skin" while figuring out optimal gains and possible tube adjustments.... Anyway, I guess I have not had loads of front ends since I gave up vinyl about 30 years ago.

Sorry I didn't explain the coax in my last post well. This was internal in the Gustard going from the input board to the output board. Stock it had threaded ends and a smallish gauge, maybe 6" copper cable with a copper shield as I recall (?). I figured just losing brass looking ends and board posts would help. I replaced it with a cable soldered to the boards to eliminate the connectors, my cable made with a 24 gauge VHAudio UP-OCC silver wire with a cotton cover, and shielded with oversized rectangular Neotech "Cotton" copper litz. This Neotech, made with loads of minuscule UP-OCC copper wires, each wire having very thin dielectric, the weave creates a hollow interior like a shield cable. I think mine was a 20 gauge and it comes with a strip of flat plastic inside, giving the hollow woven matrix a wide rectangular shape. I attached the silver wire to this interior plastic strip, and drew it through by pulling the plastic liner out from the other end, replacing the flat plastic strip with the silver wire.

The silver wire small and round, and the copper litz wide and hollow, I figured this added air space would reduce veiling interaction between the "signal" wire and the "shield." And it did sound way more resolving and musical than the stock setup in the DAC. I later tested this method more conclusively in parts of the analog signal paths of my amp, and I think adding air space does work based on hearing it first with Neotech UP-OCC silver/teflon wire unshielded, and then with this shield treatment over the silver wire in the same positions. As I recall, most of what I heard from the shield was less noise, not subtle veils. This led to replacing stock cables in the signal paths which made resolution and transparency improvements in the Torii, and also in the CSP3 and now, the ZRock2, some positions using this shield method, and some using careful geometry for noise cleanup rather than a shield. Anyway, I don't know how this "coax" replacement wire arrangement might work for a Coax interconnect having moved away from coax ICs many years ago.

Thanks for the update Steve! The May sounds like it continues to evolve into gorgeous and complete musicality! It is stimulating and exciting for me to hear about it.

Having used the NOS Tranquility so long at 16/44.1, also voiced to pull all that is there with a 16/44.1 files, I can easily agree that upsampling or hi-res are not critical. In retrospect, it seems good NOS DACs have consistently been preferred by many serious listeners over the years, but a fairly small group proportionate to all the DACs bought. That said it is great to see more and more evidence of evolving efficacy and popularity of ladder DACs and well implemented NOS chips.

Thinking back on the Tranquility, developed over a decade ago, but well into the rising tide of async, high-res and upsampling, it took some sort of crazy confidence in how good it sounded to even bring it to market. And still it was a great risk within the commercially popular hi-tech-is-better trends. But even with many "shootouts" where it beat highly respected and much higher cost DACs, trends still seemed defined by reviewer "authorities" and regular audio folks being heavily influenced by the glamour that many people attach to fancy sounding tech. With clear pointers of many finding the Tranquility great, even so, I remember some degree of fear of spending money on something that was not in sync with trending development. But finally cutting through the confusions and seeking more natural sound, I was rewarded.

Now, listening to it in my main room after using it passively in my work space for several years, with my system tuned up quite a bit..... and the Tranquility having gone through some good upgrades in that time....the timing, smooth space, and inner detail are really sweet. This iteration, having full and rich sounding Jupiter coppers in the output stage, I felt like the voicing was great, but I wanted a little more. So I put in a little 0.0047 Mallory M150 bypass on the 0.22 Jupiter hoping to pull the very top and finest detail a little more out front. And first impressions are really good, more very fine detail and space enlivening all harmonic and spacial information while giving just enough complexity and immediacy to further awaken faster and more complete leading edges, textures, etc. Amazing what upping the capacitance by about 1/47th did, but now it is really close to the upgraded Gustard with fine detail and spacial information. Finally A-B'ing them will be interesting indeed. And something about NOS timing and associated richness may tip the balance.

This re-tasting of really well done low res makes me wish even more that I could hear the May. It sounds like it is off the top at pulling all 44.1/16 has to offer. With its brilliantly implemented resistor ladders and devoted attention to everything innovative developers have discovered over the last decade, creatively implemented in this design, I can imagine it must be incredible. It truly appears by technical and listening impressions, including yours, to be state of the art! Thank goodness for folks like Jeff Zhu (and you) who's art uses great tech toward uncovering great beauty.

It seems we are in a lucky phase of audio trends, where at least a notable segment of trending hi-tech is more about music than theory and specs. Associated, now that the word is out, this DAC, like Decware, is coming into its own respect-wise. Hopefully this developing "heathy-for-once" trend will hold, and developers will become more and more focussed on the musical experience, and less on technical appearances and associated sales shimmer.

Relative to your thoughts on outcomes of upsampling/higher res and not, my limited experience of finding both really feeling like music in this system, makes me think of how powerful and critical voicing is. Clearly the May DAC (and the Tranquility) were designed to pull the completeness from 16/44.1, and that defined some primary voicing focus. Whereas, my Gustard, no matter how many times I tried, always sounds good, but tends to be a little too clean for me at 16/44.1. Improving as you go up the 44.1 multiple ladder though, finally it really comes into the deep beauty at 352.8K. This is running files upsampled by Pure Music's pretty magically real sounding upsampling algorithm at 24 or 32 bits in-computer, but the DAC is really alive there. And using Audirvana to upsample, I got the same results. So I am imagining this may be due to this DAC being voiced to best support a high sample rate. Certainly my modifications were, but guessing the original voicing was weighted toward higher res since 352.8 was my favorite pre mods too. Balanced with a resolving, spacious, dense and complex/complete sound.... Saber chip and all, it was successful enough to draw me away from the pretty amazing NOS Tranquility several years ago.

So just thinking the May and Terminator may be about as good as it gets, especially considering costs for that level of effort, development work, and musicality. But more and more, I imagine it like this.... After several decades of people getting stuck in trying to make digital sound "analog," thank goodness many are now just trying to make it sound like real music, and in doing so, finally realizing digital's full potential. So it seems a lot of DAC tech can be really good these days depending upon how good the developer uses it, which is a real blessing, especially for mid cost DACs. What a trip it is!

MrDerrick, What are your initial impressions of the PS Audio DSD vs. KTE May DACs?

Sunlight might release next week, so what I am hearing with the KTE May;

Greater sound stage depth
Cleaner extended decay
Better bottom end drive
Complex music passages and massed vocals have better definition
The soundstage width has stayed the same

This is playing files at 705.6/20 with the May vs 352.8/24 with the DS.
With Sunlight I should be able to compare with 705.6/24 on the DS.

I just do not have enough time to compare both at all PCM rates.

I will run some SDM files through both for comparison as time permits.

Windom took me forever to get just right but I LOVE it. . . so I am not in a hurry to upgrade but will. I'm disc-based so these higher upsamplings before the DSD don't matter to me, and I can't afford a new DAC, so it's a good thing I get what I want from the DSD. Will hopefully last me as long to go as it has already.

It is said by many "reviewers" that in a system, the DAC is improving only slightly the whole system and we should concentrate more on other components like amp and speakers.
I disagreed with this, the DAC being at the source and I experienced it myself.
I bought some 4 or 5 years ago an Onkyo CD+streamer+DAC to experience digital beside the old Arcam CD player I had since the 80ties. No changes really beside the ease of streaming ! Then I started to upgrade amp and speakers, the improvement was there for sure as I could compare old vs new system ....BUT....I noticed DACs were getting better by the day these last two years, so I bought an RME ADI-2 DAC-FS .... WOUAH.... everything lighted up even though I keep streaming through the Onkyo.
So this thread doesn't surprise me one bit, and I am quite pleased Steve brought it up.
I also believe that Philips knew their business with 16/44,1 and a good recording in that format is all you need. Between 16 bit and 24 all you gain is 48db of dynamic range. Considering that 16 bit gives 96db and that the largest recording are symphonic orchestra with 60db fully included into the 96db range of the 16bit of the CD, above the room floor noise, if the equipment were to reproduce it, the listener would be done with serious ears injuries. So not to worry, no equipment reproduce such a wide dynamic range and 24bits are pretty useless not to mention higher numbers....just to explain why Steve finds 16/44,1 so good.

Now I am after a good streamer but very few manufacturers seems to work on the subject.
It seems this Cambridge does the task as Steve doesn't mention it as a possible weak link.

I have one of these and it works nicely for me.
https://ifi-audio.com/products/zen-dac-v2/

I also just bought one of these which has been great once I got it running.
https://ifi-audio.com/products/zen-stream/

The stream product is interesting, it seems like a port of the volumio open source project but with a much better hardware implementation than a Raspberry Pi 4.  Plus it has the noise filters and powers the dac (see first link) without an additional power cord.

Its definitely not as user friendly as some other things, but Roon probably sorts all that out for you.

It has been awhile and I thought I would update the thread since my journey has had some unexpected surprises...


I've been listening to the CXNv2 digital output feeding the coax input on the HOLO for the past year or more because it is less hard sounding, more laid back, more dimensional than I get from the Roon Nucleus or even the iMac.  It was just more musical. When I got the Nucleus I had no idea it could be used as a streamer to feed a DAC so the wall wart got plugged into the wall and glued to the outlet so it couldn't come out.  Which is why when I discovered it could stream and tried it I didn't like the sound.


The CXNv2 that I was using to feed the HOLO got WIFI disease and I had to send it off for repair.  After a couple months, I had to do something so I hooked the Roon Nucleus back up.  Then I moved everything into the main listening room to eliminate all the cables and everything I could.  I was forced to use the Roon as a streamer instead of a server only, and consequently plugged the wall wart into the Decware power conditioner instead of the wall.

This brought the sound quality of the HOLO up a notch and I was pleasantly surprised.  Then I realized that for the past year the difference between the HOLO feed by the CXNv2 at one end of the room didn't sound enough different from the CXNv2 by itself at the other end of the room to justify the difference in cost.  Either the CXNv2 was the all time giant killer OR I have been handicapping the HOLO this entire time.

Anyway that is what I was beginning to think and then I realized despite being plugged into the line conditioner, it's still a frikin wall wart powering the Roon Nucleus!  

I purchased a really nice linear power supply and cable to replace the wall wart and while I obviously expected an improvement it was still a holy crap moment.  A moment where you hear your DAC for the first time despite owning it for around 2 years.

Another large factor in this was the speakers.





The DFH-10 Headwrecker Horns are like the James Web Telescope when compared to other speakers.  These things have also had me upping my game with the vinyl rig because they are so unforgiving and revealing.  But man o man when you get it right, it's incredible.  So just after hearing the real power supply on the streamer for the HOLO I moved the speakers to the other end of the room and listened to the CXNv2 for a few weeks.

The combination of the hearing what the linear power supply did for the streamer feeding the HOLO and these speakers I simply couldn't un hear the stock power supply in the CXNv2.  It lacked density and the speakers were always on the edge of being shouty.  

So the pattern here is about hearing only the weakest link, the non-linear power supply in the CXNv2, the wall wart for the ROON, either one made these hyper detailed speakers jump from shouty to dreamy depending on the music, mood and time of day.  I of course at the time blamed it on the speakers.  Same thing that most of you would have done.  I developed three ways to deal with it.  The GIZMO2, the passive filter for the Fast15, a ZROCK2.  Sometimes I used all three.  Which is to say that these devices were designed to fix the speakers...

Anyway after realizing I didn't have time to re-engineer the power supply for the CXNv2 like Dan Wright did, I decided to just a buy a streamer/dac that had a linear power supply.  I found that Cambridge makes a high end version of the CXNv2 called the Edge N62 or something like that so one was added to the Decware listening room.

This DAC sounds really nothing like the CXNv2.  It uses different DAC chips and while it has similar detail it is more aggressive and dense about it.  Compared to the HOLO it features detail in an almost hyper way similar to the speakers I've been using which is great because if you're going to have two DACs you certainly don't want them to sound the same!

Here is where it gets interesting...

I decided to remove all the safety devices; the filter, the ZROCK2 and keep the GIZMO2 bypassed.  Just RAW and wide open to see if I could handle that during the break in of this new unit.  Acid test.  If I can enjoy that without wincing at least once or twice that will be impressive.

Well to my surprise I have been able to deal with it rather well.  The speakers are still hyper, but now the presence or dynamic peaks while still there simply don't bother me.

I realized that what was bothering me is the glare that rode on top of the music caused by the non-linear power supply in the chain.  These speakers let you not only hear the glare but the grain that leaks into the music from the nonlinear power supplies.

All of the other speakers also revealed it, but far more politely, making it a mild nuisance and easily forgivable and in some cases go completely unnoticed.

I am grateful to these Lii Headwrecker Horn speakers for pushing the edge so hard that I had no choice but to make my sources sound better --both digital and analog alike.  It was actually very easy because the speakers make it so easy to hear the changes. Also grateful because they magnified the weak links enough to be heard.

I just realized that the speakers are like a drag car that goes too fast and now you need roll bars and a parachute.  

This new system is being driven by the Sarah 300B amplifier and will probably be such a distraction at this years DECFEST that I have already made free 'Headwrecker' hats for attendees or anyone who hears a pair in our listening room!





-Steve

Quote:


Wall wart bad... LPS good.

There are two audio hobby horses that I ride: one is tube "matching" and the other is linear power supplies.