Check stone_of_tone's posts.  I think he may have run his ZMA off of them or similar.  If it's the same tube, he swore by them.

I have two varieties of Telefunken E88CCs, a single with gold label and CCa 1 on the box, and a pair with white labelling. I think the gold label one is early 60s and the white label 65.

I also have a pair of true Telefunken ECC189s, and PCC88s, both with O getters, angled getter risers, and the diamond on the bottom. Many of the latter types are relabelled Telefunken, often good tubes, but not Telefunken.

I find Telefunkens are really competent  tubes, especially liking some 4 volt rectifiers that need adapters in my Torii IV.

Of the input tubes I have, though they sound like "family" each is pretty different within this Telefunken competence and completeness though...like you would expect from comparing E88CC, ECC88/ECC189, and PCC88.

In my current setup, the white label E88CCs are almost wildly "correct and complete," almost technicolor to me, doing everything they do so well I am impressed, but in the past, I lost interest...sounding too "hifi" to a point of overwhelming a sense of "real." Obviously how my system is set up, I can only fault them as being too much of what they are based on how they interact with my set up.

And speaking of setup, I have never been a real fan of 6922 types in my Toriis, a little in the face for me, so I have not tuned to dial them in, rather using less forceful, more relaxed/open tubes.

That said, I just put this pair of E88CCs in the Torii IV, now heavily modified to be less thick, more revealing, complete, fast, and able to show nuance, and I am impressed with less reservations. The bass is powerful and clear, and the rest is really well balanced, full, yet revealing with this pair.

But my amp is not stock. And before modifications, I always tuned for musical clarity, tighter bass with less heaviness, and still the Telefunken inputs I had tended to be a little heavy handed in bass/fullness for me, and everything else for that matter. Now, having worked over caps, resisters, wires, connectors, attenuators....the amp is more articulate, easy flowing and revealing of nuances, and these tubes sound great, but I still prefer a more spacious, less "perfect" sound...one that gives me a more "live" feeling.

I can hear how many think of these as a world class tubes though, and if I took a notion, I have little doubt I could get them to sound more like I love with some other tube work. Excluding my preference for less forceful tubes than E88CCs in general, I can't fault them except as possibly sounding too perfect, too technical...all the right subtle and not so subtle information there in a big way...

My Telefunken PCC88s, I used to find more dark/dense like Joman, but with my system now, where I have solved most "thickness," they still are a little dark/veiled, but sound pretty right. They have a powerful bass, less than the E88CCs, but notably powerful. And they are more spacious, but oddly retain a subtle veiled dark thing. Interestingly, PCC88s, historically being more to my tastes for a "real" feel, complete and articulate with a complex spacious delicacy mids up that good PCC88s support, these particular ones still have that Telefunken thing...to me, "too" expressive of what they do. But again, I have not tuned for them, and I particularly love harmonic content for bringing up a live feel. These have it all in a big way, but being powerful, full and complete, the subtler, finer detail harmonics are less in the balance than many tubes I like.

The Telefunken ECC189s, a tube type I use a lot, these sound dark and a little thick  though I have not burned them in and they may be new. They are not as forceful, big and extended on bottom as the E88CCs or PCC88s.

Just some quick thoughts based entirely on my system and preferences.


At this point, to me, these Telefunken E88CCs are not worth the high premium. But if these traits that are not exactly great for my setup, are what a system needs, that may be a different story. No doubt to me, these E88CC as really good tubes.

I am on the run, so quick, but I hope this helps.

I had not listened to late 50s D getter Bugle Boys in years, but recalled them as being a really good tube also, with quite powerful, yet articulate bass for the type, and notable completeness, almost sounding like slightly relaxed 6922 more than a more typical 6DJ8. I found them pleasantly revealing, with a nice musical "body" that does not take away from fine detail and space.

So I thought I should test my memory and compared a few tunes with the white label Telefunken E88CCs. To start I replaced a BEL (Mullard tooling), a relatively bold ECC88 I had in front of my CSP3, with a clearer but musical Siemens PCC189. This seemingly subtle change was bigger than I expected, making the Telefunkens in the Torii more to my liking, subtly relaxing them and taking that over-expressive edge off them for me. Very nice.

The D getter BBs, are to me, similar in quality for good tubes doing good things, but the Telefunkens being very complete 6922s, have stronger bass and everything else...and more edge definition without being edgy here per se. The D getter BBs are more relaxed, softer, to me in a pleasant way, and also very revealing of detail with a little more noticeable spacial information and delicacy, especially noticeable in decays. I don't hear "clinical" from them, but we have different setups. Actually, I think the smooth midrange body of the D getter BBs is musical, but it could be a little bit warm/soft for some settings, and in yours, perhaps tending toward "clinical." What a labyrinth.

So on a very quick analysis, I would say the Telefunkens are more expressive of power across the spectrum, a similar balance, but with more power behind it, more extended (especially low) and more revealing of edge speed and articulation. Though as I said, I would not say the BBs are not articulate, but they are mellower and more relaxed here.

My speakers and amp both tend toward warm, and go low. I have only heard Randy's speakers on the live stream, so difficult to say, but by comparison to Bob's speakers, I find them more mid focused and clear in general. I suspect that with your baffles, any tube that may tend to having overly expressive bass with speakers that go deeper, may be really good there, and the rest is so complete and full without being thick (at least here), maybe these Telefunkens would be a good match....can't say!

It's rare to hear anyone speak so objectively about tubes with any authority... So, I thank you all for your input. [no pun]...

The 5670 to 6922 adapter works with Russian 6N3P-EV vacuum tubes. With 5670 and 6N3P-EV tubes, there are many tube rolling combinations .

I read that iFi paper a few years ago, and excited, found a good price from a reputable ebay seller on a pair of WE 396A. I got adapters from a Chinese seller. Unfortunately, the very nicely made adapters have short pins for my tube sockets which are inset below the amp plate. Luckily I had some Tubemonger socket savers around, and cumbersome with two adapters, they worked well enough to get a good test.

The 396As sound really good to me at the volumes I can pull from them, but they are quiet enough before distortion in my amp that it is hard to truly compare. Everything set the same with my Torii and pre stages, the WEs end up playing notably quieter than all my 6922/6DJ8/7DJ8 types, and cause my Torii to go into distortion when I raise pots to try and get to my favored serious listening levels.

6N1Ps create a similar issue in my setup. Don't know, but wonder if it is some power draw thing with these tubes that is different from 6922 types??? I recall looking around the 5760W tube talk back when this first happened, to see if there was an explanation and could not easily find anything, not even similar complaints, so gave up and moved on.

I also think I recall Steve commenting on the 6N1P issue at some point, but can't remember...Is this Torii specific, or what the actual cause is???


Hopefully Steve or someone else who knows will catch this post and comment.

Quote:


The TORII MK4 was designed fairly close to the knee point of the 6N1P.  That means the voltage feeding the tube was deliberate kept on the low side.  Unfortunately due to variables in the production of the 6N1P and variables in supply voltage from peoples outlets it is possible for the tube to be under voltage causing distortion.  When this happens the amp sounds fine, but is limited to about 5 or 6 watts of output.

Steve

As long as we're still on the subject, has anyone tried this input tube and adapter combination?

https://www.tubedepot.com/products/ge-5670w-and-5670-to-6922-adapter-combo

There's also a 'white paper' on the subject, here: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=148150.0The

Thanks for the heads up on this. Best tube (by far) I’ve used in my Zen!!!

I can comment on the 396A and 5670W with use of an adapter.

The Westinghouse 396A is a nice tube but it can be difficult to find samples that have closely matched sections for gain or Mu, which is what I look at first. Most that I have tested have a gain of 30 too 33 but sections can be off over 10% and I prefer a 3-5 % max difference section to section.

The second thing that I look for is low self noise, which in the 396A is usually quite good, -82 dB on my maxipre tester.
The sections usually measure very close for noise.

The GE 5670W is much easier to source and can be had for next to nothing. ( < $10 a tube vs $50 too $60 for a WE 396A )

I expected the 5670 to test as consistently as a 7316, since I believe both were developed for use in test instruments and not audio applications. ( edited out "data", had data on the brain this AM! )

The 5670Ws did not test as tight as the 7316s and even though the have a "W" designation, which I always thought meant low noise, they do not appear to be screened very tight for low noise, compared to other "W" type tubes that I have tested.

Self noise runs -78 dB too -80 dB and varies section to section on some examples.

The 5670Ws do match very consistently for section gain, with gain running 30 too 33 Mu with 3 -5 % matches.

I am probably way too picky with section matching for both gain and noise. BTW, both of these tube are medium Mu tubes and fall well within the 6922, 7308 family of tubes with regards to gain.

Both tubes sound very nice in my SE84UFO25 and I could live with either, but the GE 5670W is much easier to source and if you have a very good shot at getting closely matched tube sections.

I sourced my adapters from the Tube Depot, the GE 5670Ws from various ebay sellers.

Chris,
I got the adaptors in today and started rolling some tubes.

The GE are nice dainty little tubes that burn BRIGHT! A rather mellow sound so far--no complaints from me. I'm pairing them right now with a pair of Amperex (made in England) 0A3 voltage rectifiers that seem a nice match. Sounding similar to the Lorenz PCC189 I had in for a few days . . . . I'll keep them in the coming week and see how they "evolve" (just got told to shut my stereo off by my weekend boss, that's probably it for the weekend!)

Yes, many tubes do. It did clarify a bit in a few hours of use. Interested to hear the system tomorrow.

These little 5670 tubes really are quite nice. I have always preferred the warmer sound of the 6N1P tube over the extra detail of a 6DJ8. This little tube seems to have the right amount of both. It is my favorite input tube so far. I just ordered another dozen @ $3.95 per tube plus $7.00 shipping.

I'm back to Sylvania 0B3 as the Amperex (British) 0A3 were a bit too edgy overall, a bit fatiguing.

I've a new pair of output tubes (not Steve's, very similar to Steve's though but bought in bulk, not rigorously tested and matched), and the Sylvania are pretty darned new, and these new GE  5670 and converters, and a lot to burn in but very clear and detailed sound, dynamic too. Like a new amp to explore, wonderful sounds.

I forgot to add that I have also now rolled in the National 12AU7 that I received with my modded ZROCK2 and that I'm enjoying it now that it has some good hours on it.

That means that I am now running Steve matched and thoroughly tested tubes in my entire input and output chain, only rectifiers and regulation tubes not from Steve. The balanced quality of these tubes is . . . audible.

Looking back in this thread, I see that Spyder mentions that a 6N3P can also be used with this adapter. Has anyone compared that tube with the 5670?

Yes, the 6N3P is the "Russian" equivalent.

Extremely lost cost, $1 -  $2 dollars each.

Not certain if there are any North America based sellers.

I thought about a bulk European purchase, but I don't know how many will pass screening or how they even sound.

So far I have a very favorable impression of the 5670.  Gives up nothing on the Mullard I was using and perhaps a better sound stage.   More 3D.

Hello Artman,

Yes, the Telefunken page Mark posted a link for at the top of this thread has changed, confusing things. It now shows the newly made "Telefunken" labelled tube as the sale item. But when Mark posted the link, it had shown a true NOS Telefunken for sale.

Looking above the new production tubes (that ebay lists as "something similar") at the top of the page is a panel with an exclamation point showing the original tube Mark was pointing to, the panel saying:

"The listing you're looking for has ended.

1 NOS tube Telefunken diamond E88CC 6922 = 6DJ8 CCa DC 1962 (911006)
Condition:      New
Ended:      Dec 11, 2019, 09:20:09 AM PST
Price:      US $175.00"

The Telefunken tubes I wrote about are NOS. I can't comment on the new ones, not having heard them, though I bet several here have! I think I recall Lon mentioning it somewhere in the Forum. It would be interesting to get some impressions on them.

Hope this helps.

Today I received four more GE 5670 and converter bases and I now have six installed in my ZTPRE. Very interesting in comparison to the Decware 6N5P that I have had in there for a number of days. A bit drier and at the same time a bit more detailed. Of course four are brand new and tomorrow will tell me more. I have more on the way so that I can also have these in the Monoblocks for a complete 5670 signal chain, and also have 8 of the 6N3 on the way for a comparison.

Fun. . . tube rolling can be fun.

I'll certainly post my impressions. The 6N3 are coming from another continent so it will take a few more weeks.