It seemed proper to start a thread concerning my experience with the Lii Audio F15 drivers in the forum that Steve generously created for Caintuck Audio products ..... rather than post my comments in the "Steve's BIG BETSY Project" thread of the General Discussion and Support forum.

I am certainly looking forward to Decware Fest 2019 and being able to experience the BIG BAFFLES and hope that Steve and Zygi will be offering these state of the art beauties to the public in some form ...

Based on the enthusiastic comments that Steve made about these drivers when mounted in his BIG BAFFLES, my curiosity got the better of me and I had to hear a pair mounted in the "low boy" barrel shaped baffles that I use for the WBAL Betsy and Eminence Alpha bass drivers.

Having heard the Audio Nirvana 12" alnico drivers in a pair of my baffles, I knew that there were full range drivers larger than 8" that sounded very good ..... but at 1,000.00 a pair they were a bit more than most of my customers wanted to part with.
The F15 drivers are a little more reasonable.

I must admit being a bit skeptical because a couple of years ago I heard a pair of open baffle speakers with drivers that looked very similar to the F15s. They were 15" drivers with a large whizzer cone and a phase plug and I don't even remember what brand they were because the sound was totally forgettable ..... pretty much "Pro Audio" without the finesse that is needed for good home audio .....

Now that I think of it, the whizzer cone looked to be made of heavy plastic. The whizzer cone on the F15 appears to be made from paper and is not nearly as thick and stiff as the appearance would indicate.

I mounted the F15 drivers in a pair of baffles that originally housed some Alpha 15" drivers and placed them in my listening room where my Betsy baffles normally reside.
Having no idea what to expect, I popped one of my compilation CDs into the transport with a variety of well recorded music that I am very familiar with. My trusty SE84UFO was used to power the speakers.







From the first note, what I heard was not what I expected to hear.
I expected a 15" driver to beam like a banshee and draw attention to itself with no high frequency finesse and detail and a less than impressive soundstage.

Man .... were my preconceptions off base .....
The soundstage floated above the baffles like it does with the Betsy drivers, both wide and deep and very well focused.
One of the amazing strengths of the Betsy drivers is what they do for human voice and surprisingly the F15s do very much the same.
Wonderful presence and palpability.
The high frequency harmonics of guitar and other instruments are easily heard and very natural sounding.
The lower midrange is a real treat ..... and instruments like cello have a weight and authority that is excellent from the top string to the bottom.

The bass ?
Ah yes ..... the bass. Many Betsy baffle owners supplement the low frequencies with an additional baffle (or two) with larger drivers powered by a plate amp (or two) or another amplifier with variable volume and crossover controls ..... or use a subwoofer.
Since the Betsy drivers roll off pretty quickly below 80 to 100 HZ, music lovers who need "deep bass" have one of these options to create a "full range" system.
With the F15 drivers in the low boy baffles, there will be no need for any supplemental bass components ..... unless the listener is a real "bass monster" .....
The bass is full and rich and instruments such as acoustic double bass, the lower registers of piano, pipe organ, baritone sax and kick drum all sound natural with good weight.

Admittedly, there is more flexibility and control of the bass with a pair of Betsy baffles and a subwoofer or bass baffles ..... but for a single pair of small baffles the bass is pretty impressive.

So ..... do I like these drivers ? Yes
I like them well enough that I will be offering them as an option on my website in the near future.

Does this mean that the Betsy (and Betsy alnico) drivers are now obsolete ? Not at all.
The Betsy drivers are still one of the most musical audio components I know of and the price is well within the reach of almost any music lover. When paired with a very affordable Decware SE84UFO, they make music ..... it's as simple as that. Even without supplementing the lower frequencies, they are excellent speakers and the retail price of a pair of Betsy drivers is about 1/5 of the normal retail price of the F15 drivers.

The WBAL alnico drivers are still a wonderful bargain and have that "alnico sound" that is highly valued and appreciated by music lovers. If you haven't heard a pair, you will be in for a treat at Decware Fest 2019.

You can be sure that there will always be a pair of Betsy baffles in my listening room and they will be making music and putting a smile on my face.

But, it's good to have options ..... and the baffles with the F15 drivers are legitimate "full range" speakers that will meet the needs of most music lovers. As Steve has mentioned in the BIG BAFFLE thread, these drivers have amazing "slam" because of the efficiency / sensitivity and will light up a room with an SE84UFO or 25th Anniversary amplifier.

I will have a pair of them at Decware Fest 2019 in October for the evaluation of those attending.

As soon as I have a few things worked out, the F15 baffles will be available on my website and I will announce that in this forum.
Pricing is still being worked out ..... but they will be reasonable in keeping with my "mission statement" of providing musical loudspeakers at a price that doesn't result in bankruptcy.

Which brings me to a final thought ..... I have no idea yet what to call these things. I'm afraid that if I use the name "F15", there will be confusion among some who think that I am selling jet fighter planes. I'm open to suggestions ..... maybe I should have a contest to come up with a suitable name .....  

Happy listening,
Randy

What about naming them Frank?

So Randy, your post is encouraging and exciting!  

It stands to reason that if you can get a 15 inch driver with a small voice coil to sound like the 8 inch driver in the Betsy Baffle that it's going to have bass like the Alpha 15 making bass augmentation redundant. Also there is the bonus of a rather huge difference in efficiency so as you pointed out a win on many fronts!

Kinda fun to see your introduction to the F15 driver took a similarity to my own.  I definitely wasn't expecting what I heard either.  I knew when I examined the driver and felt the paper that it was going to be good, but the bass slam was completely unexpected.  I don't actually know where it comes from!

Happy listening!

- Steve

Thanks for the suggestions guys .....  

After sleeping on it, I think that I will use a variation of Steve's suggestion .....

From the beginning, I never tried to hide the source of the driver components that were used in my speakers.

So, it seems logical to just call the new offering the "Lii 15" .....

That name gives credit to the designer of the driver and the size of the driver as well ..... easy peasy .....

Stay tuned .....

Happy listening,
Randy

I like the name “Lii 15” for the new driver.  How about “Big Ben” as a nickname?  ;)

Randy, I was hoping for Completely Baffled as the name.

Quote:

Randy, I appreciate that you have the baffle build down pat but unless you're getting a special rate on the drivers, your price sure looks low.

You're awesome!

I think I have a hangover from building these big baffles.  They follow the cube law at least.

I've been looking for an OB project (my first) and these speakers looking appealing.  I understand that they excel with 'acoustic' material, but what about more aggressive stuff like fuzzed out, distorted electric guitars?   Is the Lii 15 good with a wide variety of music from classical to jazz to rock?

I'm running a DIY First Watt M2 amp with M&K 750THX speakers (can't include link since this is my first post).  I love a big, 3D soundstage with precise imaging and the ability to resolve multiple layers of electric guitars, for example.

Does it sound like the Lii 15 would make me happy?

TIA.

I second for "Tin Pan Alley".  One of my reference tracks on my open baffles.  Sounds amazing!!!

Hi slk23,

Baltic birch has pretty much been the "standard" for plywood used for audio purposes ..... it has more layers and fewer voids than most other types of plywood (which you are probably already aware of).
Because of the greater number of "plys", there is more glue used and if you pick up one of my speakers made from Baltic birch (using the rear mounted convenience handle), it is noticeably heavier than a speaker made from a different type of plywood.

Despite the fact that I consider my audio rig to be pretty revealing, I don't notice a huge difference in sound ..... but I'm sure that it would be noticeable if the baffles were larger and had more surface area.

Happy listening,
Randy

I built a number of furniture projects with birch ply when I was in college in the '80s.  I guess I was on to something  :)  I don't remember it being specified as 'baltic' but I assume it's similar.

I may try a mid-size baffle, with dimensions between what you're using and Steve's. BTW does the 'barrel' shape, as opposed to a disc, contribute anything sonically?  Or is the flat bottom there simply to make it stable when sitting on the floor?  

I just received the first order for a pair of Lii 15s today .....

Woo Hoo !!!

Hopefully, many more to follow.
I'm thinking that the buyer will be one happy camper.
I enjoyed a three hour listening session yesterday with my personal pair, playing a wide variety of music ..... and it all sounded very good.

The drivers still don't have a lot of hours on them, but they are already making music .....

Happy listening,
Randy

Mr. Randy,

Have you tried the Lii Crystal driver in an open baffle?

Well ..... the first orders for the Lii 15 baffles will be shipping out this coming week .....

The very first pair are red oak plywood with a dark ebony stain .....



They look very much at home in my "he shed" listening room ..... and sound great, as well.



A couple of two tone hardwood versions will be ready in a few days .....

Happy listening,
Randy

WOW Randy,

Those Betsy Lii Audio F15's look wonderful.  Can't wait to see these in two tone hardwoods.

HK

Today saw the completion of the first pair of two tone hardwood Lii 15 baffles .....



They are already promised to a customer and I have two more pairs to build ..... one pair like these with walnut end panels and a hard maple center panel and the other reversed with the hard maple to the outside and walnut in the center .....

The whizzer cone on the F-15 driver compliments the hard maple very nicely.

Whatever happened to the audio hobby slowing down during the summer months when most folks are doing the "outdoor activity" thing ?

It's good to see that music is important to a lot of folks during every month of the year .....

Happy listening,
Randy

Thanks, John ..... !!!

Looking forward to seeing you again in October .....  

Best wishes,
Randy

Don't go rectangle.  Just like a beautiful woman, the magic is in the curve...

I'm with Randy on this.  I don't find anything lacking with the top end of the F15s.  I originally thought a "super tweeter" might be necessary based on the specs but in practice, not at all.  The low end might need some help.  
The big baffles do produce good bass but it can be enhanced to good effect.

Another pair of Lii 15 baffles is shipping tomorrow ....

This pair turned out very nicely ..... hard maple with a walnut center panel.
Obviously, my cell phone photo doesn't even begin to do justice to the grain patterns of the hardwoods .....



All of the versions of builds up to this point in time can be seen on the Lii 15 page of my website.

Happy listening,
Randy

Thanks Steve .....

Another variation ..... rotary sawn red oak plywood - linseed oil / beeswax finish.



Larger photo here.

Eighteen days and counting .....

Randy

I'm anxious to hear these at Decfest

BTW, God Bless Lii Audio for such an incredible driver.   100dB is some serious OB!  

Steve

Hydro dipping
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48jFJnuvE4g

I've seen it done, semi magical.

I've had my pair of Lii 15" OB from Caintuck  for a couple of weeks now and I can't imagine getting more speaker for the money.  They sound great, Randys craftsmanship is top notch,  they look exotic, they're user friendly, and one man portable.   I started out driving them with a couple of mono strapped ZKit1 amps and they were really impressive, then I hooked up the bigger  mono blocks and excellent became excellent-er with another 40-50 watts. I would definitely recommend these to a friend.  I predict that some day, when they don't make 'em anymore, the Lii 15" will be one of those legendary 'barn-find' type drivers people dream of getting their hands on.
JC

Hi waxburger and HK,

Many thanks for the kind words concerning the Lii 15 baffles .....

I have shipped several pairs to customers and received very positive feedback on all of them .....

HK is absolutely correct about the "driver / floor" relationship.
In a larger baffle (with more surface area) like the ones Decware is offering, the drivers can be a greater distance from the floor ..... but in the smaller baffles the coupling to the floor is an integral component of the low frequency tonal balance.

The stereo image / soundstage "floating" above the smaller baffles is a pretty amazing sonic illusion, for sure.

My hat is off to the designers and engineers at Lii Audio and to Steve for turning the Decware forum members on to these amazing drivers.

Happy listening,
Randy

Tone-Deaf,

(1) Have you used a ZROCK with the speakers, and if so how did the speakers respond?  Or is there plenty of bass without the ZROCK? Yes, I use the ZROCK2 between my phono preamp and CSP3+ preamp. Adds plenty of bass and lower midrange emphasis. Sounds great. My ZDAC has a built in ZBIT, so I don't use the ZROCK2 in my digital (PC, CD transport & DAC) chain. I have plenty of bass with this option as well.

(2) Are the "high end" frequencies satisfying?  I believe that the Lii-15 frequency response is pretty flat up to about 14,000 hz.  From what I read, that is about as high as a "mature persons" hearing goes, but am curious about your thoughts. These speakers have plenty of smooth treble and high frequency response. I haven't measured the frequency response in my room.  The Lii-15's ssem to have just as much high frequency response as my Omega SAHO-XRS speakers, which claim a 40Hz - 20,000 Hz response.  Also, I have played around a lot with toe-in of the Lii-15's.  I don't notice any loss of treble with the speakers firing straight ahead or pointed directly at my listening position. These speakers appear to have have a very wide dispersion of all frequencies, my guess a characteristic of the OB design.

HK

I've been talking with Randy about a center channel, my mains are 4 way speakers with a woofer in a cabinet and the mid in another cabinet with a mid tweeter and super tweeter in an OB. Any thoughts on how a Lii15 would do as a center channel? I know it's tough to know but lets see what everone thinks, thanks

Okay was approaching 100 hours on my Lii15 Caintucks and honestly not super happy.  Had this midrange glare that no matter what got swapped - preamps, source, cables, never fully went away except with great recordings.  Thinking the Lii15 and Decware amp were probably a mistake.
took
Yesterday morning I tore it all apart and built things back up from real minimal system level.  Wasn't really expecting much

took out the preamp (s) and used the Exogal dac playing dsd straight into the Decware amp
pulled out cheapish dueland interconnects and ran them from dac to amp
replaced expensive cat8 ethernet cables with affordable blue jeans cat 7
put a herbies tube damper on the decware driver tube
put a hardcover book about UK golf courses on top and feet under lumin streamer (which has a new power supply breaking in too)
ditched the lampizator dac

the sound - don't think my jaw dropped but if I thought about it it would.  Detail, seperation, dynamics, tone.  Affraid to turn things off they sound so good - even xmas music for my granddaughter.

Not sure what which change is responsible.  This hobby can be frustrating!

have EtherRegan coming and improved power supply for Exogal and have been reading about Sophia Electric 274B for the rectifier on amp but am I going to mess with this fine art of balance I have found.  Just listening for now - Andrew Bird and Molly Burch sounding sweet tonight and no not a mistake - lovin this sound and presentation in my small room.

I wonder if any of it has to do with better isolation?

Thanks for the feedback everyone

seems clear to me that the Lii15 and UFO combo are a lot more revealing about problems upstream and/or poorly recorded music.  I had a big power Class D amp with KEF ls50s in exact same place before.  

Some of my thoughts:

The Exogal dac never got to play as preamp direct into amp in past - seems to really enjoy this elevated role direct to the Decware amp.

cabling might be really important with this increased sensitivity

I really like the UFO - in fact will think about the 25th anniversary in future

I have some really good gear sitting on sidelines - over next month will rotate some of that through.  Especially my much loved Lampizator dac that doesnt do upsampling or volume control but just always sounds great.

Will be curious how a higher power amp will play with the Lii F15s - have been curious about something like the Schiit Aegir.

going to order one of SE 274bs rectifier

Speakers only have about 100 hours, played at pretty low volumes - they seem to be great low volume speaker.  Will have to crank some Chieftans Christmas music soon.

Hock, can you post a picture showing the speakers and diffuser panels?

Thanks!  I was curious to see the set up since I've always maintained that I couldn't pull off treatment in my space.  I could possibly do some of what you've done but not in the center.

BTW, love the garden hose powering the ZMA!      Do the pucks under the ICs and speaker cables do much for the sound?  I could imagine static charge in the carpet.

Thanks for sharing, HK .....

Here is a smaller photo of the HockessinKid listening room that doesn't require scrolling .....



For a fact, diffusers work very well with open baffle loudspeakers.

I have a section of panels on the front wall of my listening room and am very happy with the sound.
These panels were originally found on the original Decware forum many years ago. I built them from plans that were provided (and no longer available, unfortunately) and they are perfect for my room.



Happy listening,
Randy

ok just found the browse button

OB nubie picture from above:

Hi OB,

Yes ..... it has been my experience that the closer a driver is to any room boundary (including the floor), the coupling effect is increased.

The low frequency output can actually be "tuned" by changing the distance between the driver and the floor.

Best wishes,
Randy

OB nubie,

Play your music to your liking. Avoid noise pink, white, or generated tones. Don't be critical until it gets some hours and always give 20 or so minutes of warm-up before serious listening.

John

hoping folks can give me a bit of advice.  i'm still waiting for my F15's to break in before i move them upstairs to my main listening room.  currently i have my old Mirage M1's doing HT and stereo duty and will retire them to HT once F15's move up.  currently ii have a Mirage BPS 400 sub that although i've heard well reviewed i cannot get them to sound correct in my room.  either not enough bass or too boomy.  anyway they will have to go once the OB's are placed.  thoughts? experience.  sure would like to keep under $1200 or so.  given i have possible room issues (although i have tons of acoustic foam behind and in corners...) should i consider 2 small subs?  room is 14 x 21 x 8.

tempted to do the GR research dual OB subs or should i go with maybe 2 HSU VTF-2's.  i like the idea of the servo control but have no experience.  i also have a M&K thx 350 in basement room.

last thing is sub should work for both music and HT

any and all thought and suggestions most welcome

Hi Andy,

I have done an A/B comparison in my room with the F-15 drivers in the original 7/8" thick baffles and the 1 1/2" thick Magnum baffles.

The Magnum baffles have better focus and low level detail ..... as well as a more robust lower midrange and upper bass response.

As you might imagine, the Magnum baffles are quite a bit heavier than the original baffles, but are still easy to move using the rear mounted convenience handles.

Best wishes,
Randy