OK, I have tried it on the ZF15M and the result was even more pronounced. I did a little testing back and forth tonight and when the speakers are tipped back the imaging is far better and the frequency balance is so far sounding the same.

Interestingly, I when I went from tipped-back to vertical I could hear that in the vertical position the back wave is dominant. When it is tipped the front wave becomes dominant and the focus and imaging improve dramatically. It's hard to get used to the difference because it is so much better. Even in the next room you can tell something is a lot happier in there.

Kind of embarrassed I didn't try this sooner, since it's been 28 pages ago. Truthfully, I was so completely distracted by how good these speakers sound, that it never occurred to me to change anything.

Steve

I’ve always thought speakers would give a better sound when slightly tipped or slanted upwards, especially if the speakers are low to the ground. When I’ve done for this is to use so what have done is to use IsoAcoustic speaker spikes GIAIA where I can control how much I elevate the front.

An exciting result!

I wonder if capturing some of the back wave is indicated. Perhaps an acoustic blanket on the back of the speaker would further improve the sound.

Brian

Randy, can you please post a picture showing your example?

Quote:


Nailed it.

Steve

The bass change in adjacent rooms could be a result of less structural transmittal since the base has less floor contact.  ???

Here is the wedge I made if anyone else gets inspired.

Nice! How do they sound?

Well, you guys got me curious so I put the BBs back in the system today after a long absence.  

Whenever I put them back in, I am always struck by the monstrous soundstage.  I find I can play them at lower volume because there is so much ambient sound that comes out of these vs the crystal 10s.  But, when i put them back in the system, I did notice a difference in imaging vs the Crystal 10s.  

i listened to them all day while working.  Then tonight I played with toe in and tilt.  It definitely sharpens up the imaging.  Also, with the sharpened imaging, I think that they move towards closing the perceived detail gap between drivers.

Anyway, a fun tweak and well worth the time spent.  I didn't do anything fancy, just used a board to rest the baffle on and tilt it up.  I'll continue to play with toe in.  

For me, less toe in means wider/shallower sound stage, (but larger sweet spot).  I usually trade off wide for deep.

So, my initial assessment of tilting my BBs back Steve's 7 1/2 degrees is completely positive.  I feel like I'm hearing the BBs for the first time, again.  Huge sound and a "they are here" experience.  Soundstage seems deeper and taller.  Good/better separation.

It's an easy mod.  Try it, you'll like it.  And, thanks to Steve for his constant tweaking and innovating.

Wow!!!  

I like the track. Who is it?

Tilting the Z15 series is changing the reflections in the room while lowering energy at the listening position. It is also reducing the rear reflections of the motor at that same position. This is evident in the video. It will sound different but better can only be determined over time.

Wondering the outcome of this might be offset tuning blocks or even pivotal tuning clamp for the F15 series.

I for one enjoy your R&D.

Stay safe.

John

I would think that a solid hardwood wedge would work better for tilt.  Would couple the base to the floor better. A wedge from 3 1/2” at front to about 1/4” at back. I say 1/4” so that it’s thick enough that it wouldn’t break apart.

Me too. Steve states in these experiments that he does a lot of standing and walking around as he is listening. So, tilt would make a huge difference there. Most of the time, when I’m listening, I sit down in, what I feel like, is my best listening position.

With the Big Betsy’s, it stands to reason that your sweet spot would be pretty far away. Would the mass of the baffle have to be considered, as well as the driver height from the floor?  It seems to me that two angles are needed. One for sitters like me, and one for standers. It would be difficult to come up with a medium angle that would satisfy both. With my slightly bigger Randy style 8” Betsys, the driver height is less than the 15M’s and considerably less than the 15L’s. My standing angle should be more than 15 degrees. I have been experimenting with the angle I like best for my sitting position.

And is this apples to oranges comparing an 8” driver to 15” driver?  Steve, Randy, help???🤣🤣🤣

Once I put my Crystals back in, I’ll have to experiment with the best angle for them as well.

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Remember it's the tilt and the toe. Gotta have both. The result is (as I originally mentioned) that the sound for the first time remains largely unchanged sitting or standing. My distance is on a 10 foot arc. It is this small miracle of having the same depth and imaging sitting or standing that I have been chasing my entire adult life as an audiophile. I do my serious listening always setting in the sweet spot, of course. So you can imagine how annoying it is when you stand up in the sweet spot and hear the soundstage get better. It's been driving me nuts for 30 plus years now. Not only does the imaging not change, but the frequency balance is also locked, and it stays that way as you are slowly moving from sitting to standing.

My height is 5'9" but it's important to understand that my height is irrelevant to the angle. I did not adjust the angle by ear from a standing position, always and only seated in the sweet spot. The reason the angle is working is because it is prime, and when you start drawing lines at prime angles in a rectangle you have a far more dispersed pattern. Another reason the angle is working is because of floor bounce and the effect of that are drastically modified.

Hopefully this helps readers new to the thread to understand the reasoning behind the angle. In theory, distance to the wall behind the speakers shouldn't have any effect on how these angles interact with the room, but will certainly have an effect on pressure and standing waves behind the speaker, both which are higher with proximity to the wall. Killing the parallel lines between the wall and speaker by adding this angle will eliminate any standing waves behind the speaker that were caused by those lines.  Your frequency balance will improve.

Steve

I think this will work. I just used a 3 x 3.

Since Steve posted the above I thought I'd mention that I don't hear any change as I go from standing to sitting.  I have a 7 1/2 degree tilt on my BBs and they are toed in to point at the place where I sit.

When are you getting your adjustable bases? It should be interesting to be able to make slight adjustments and reevaluate.

The picture I posted before has the driver out of the regular Betsy. My regular baffle has no driver in it now.

I just put the Crystal 10 back in to experiment with it. The driver is higher, so this roughly 15 degrees works better. Like I said earlier, I think I need more tilt with the others.



I forgot that my base is not as deep on the Crystals. I rechecked the angle and this makes it sharper - about 17 degrees.

Hi AZ. Yep, get em tilted back. Makes them better in every way. It’s pretty unbelievable.

Another picture:

My last speakers were HR1s.  Neither those nor the F15s are "beamy."  In my space, more toe-in seems to congest the sound.  That is with tilt anyway.  I'm keeping the tilt so I'm not sure how it affects the toe-in (can't go back) but I suspect you are right that less toe with tilt is true.

Geno,

I started with 7 1/5 degrees.  I haven't tried a different angle.  I think these feet would allow up to 10 degrees.  For me, too much toe-in had the speakers pointing at my listening position.  Right now I have them mid way between that and neutral.  In some ways these sound very omni-directional to me.

Sounds like we have about the same toe in, Russ. Are you staying with the 8 degrees of tilt?