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Is a SUT needed? (Read 5684 times)
Geno
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Is a SUT needed?
06/18/19 at 15:55:46
 
I have an opportunity for a really good deal on a Soundsmith Carmen-M Fixed Coil / Moving Iron ??? cartridge. The specs say Output Voltage @ 5cm/sec is 2.12 mV (High) , Recommended Load Resistance: ≥ 47kΩ

I've never used anything other than a MM cart, so this is a new area for me. Would I need a SUT to use this cart? I'm using a ZP3.

Thanks,

Geno
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
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Ace-Tone
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Re: Is a SUT needed?
Reply #1 - 06/18/19 at 16:17:46
 
Hey Geno,
 I've read somewhere in these forums that 2.15 etc High Output MM carts are fine with the ZP3. I've rolled the dice on a soundsmith zephyr mkIII es that I should have in a few days. I will let you know how that works out.
 I plan to run the ZP3 thru the Zstage / Zrock2 as I do now. That should, hopefully, solve any gain issues. Steve D recommends a higher output MM cart for the ZP3...so, again, we'll see.
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Geno
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Without music, life
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Posts: 2000
Re: Is a SUT needed?
Reply #2 - 06/18/19 at 16:32:43
 
Thanks Ace! Definitely keep me posted. As of a few days ago, I have a Zstage in my phono chain, too.  I hadn't thought about that helping.

Best,

Geno
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Archie
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Re: Is a SUT needed?
Reply #3 - 06/18/19 at 17:01:54
 
I've used a 0.5mV cart with my ZP3 and CSP3 and it worked well except for he extra noise due to running the CSP3 so high.  I did this while waiting for my ZMC1.  The 2.5mV cart should work with the ZP3 and ZSTAGE but you might get more noise as well.  I've posted several times that the ZP3 only puts out about 1/2 volt with a 5mV cart and no one has contradicted me.  Since Steve's amps generally require 2 volts to come to full power, the ZP3 is still marginal without an additional gain stage before the amp.
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Geno
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Without music, life
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Posts: 2000
Re: Is a SUT needed?
Reply #4 - 06/21/19 at 12:39:50
 
I ended up with a 2.1mV cart. Definitely a hum run through my Zstage. Not too bad until I get the dial past 3 O’clock. The sound is so good that I can live with it  ;)
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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jslateiv
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Re: Is a SUT needed?
Reply #5 - 06/21/19 at 15:12:40
 
Geno,  you should def. be able to get that hum down to barely audible levels.   You will have to look at how your grounding between the TT and ZP3 are and where the ZStage is connected.   If you have the ZStage in between the TT and ZP3,  try connecting the ZS to the ZP3 outputs and then ZS to amp.    If the ZS is already connected to the ZP3 output then I would look closely at TT cable routing to the ZP3 and make sure the ground wire from TT is tightly connected at both TT and ZP3.
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Geno
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Without music, life
would be a mistake.

Posts: 2000
Re: Is a SUT needed?
Reply #6 - 06/21/19 at 15:22:07
 
Thank you, Jslate. I have connected - TT to ZP3 w/ground - ZP3 to Zstage - Zstage to Amp

I just took for granted that the hum was a result of the new cart's low voltage output.  I will use your recommendations, and experiment.

Kindest regards,

Geno
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Archie
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Posts: 2731
Re: Is a SUT needed?
Reply #7 - 06/21/19 at 15:49:55
 
I dealt with TT related hum for years.  Grounding was not the issue nor was shielded or non-shielded interconnects.  My solution was to move all TT related ICs away from my power outlets.  Power cable proximity makes no difference but the outlets sure do.
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Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Geno
Seasoned Member
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Without music, life
would be a mistake.

Posts: 2000
Re: Is a SUT needed?
Reply #8 - 06/21/19 at 16:05:57
 
Hi Adam.  I can definitely rule outlet interference out. Both of mine are nowhere near a TT connection.

I have 2 MM carts that I use, with no hum whatsoever.
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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jslateiv
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Posts: 160
Re: Is a SUT needed?
Reply #9 - 06/21/19 at 16:48:01
 
My Zephyr MIMC is very low output and the hum I originally exp when using a SUT was due to the grounding techniques used. Once I got that sorted out,  I did find that cable/table  proximity to noisy sources like outlets, eqp. transformers, unshielded power cables, etc..  would make a difference in 'picked up' noise.   I don't think the hum is inherent to your cart and 2.5mv is a pretty healthy output but like anything it seems,  there are always exceptions to the rule.   Play around with placement.   Also,  if you have any 'shorting' plugs laying around (or have an easy way to short the inputs to your ZP3,  then you can easily tell if the noise is being picked up between the table and ZP3 or if it is entering the system down stream)….
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PureFidelity Harmony (SS Zephyr MIMC / ZYX Ultimate 100 / Miyajima Madake) > Roon/NUC > Holo KTE May > Supratek Cortese LCR > SE84-25 Zen / Gerus 300B / Radu Tarta Ultimate 300B > Triangle Celius 202 / Zu Omen (Hi-Mod) / ZenMstrL-F15 : PSA P12 : Iconoclast Cabling
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Archie
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Re: Is a SUT needed?
Reply #10 - 06/22/19 at 01:03:31
 
I agree that hum might not be cart related, unless you only get the hum with the new cart, everything else staying the same.  My hum was independent of cart, MM or MC and with/without the SUT.  I was just living with it until I happened to rearrange cables for some reason.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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