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Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice (Read 7135 times)
vinyltubenewbie
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Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice
05/08/19 at 02:39:50
 
Hi All! I am planning on updating my system with my first tube component, and after reading so many great things about Decware, I am sold!

I have read through many forum posts here and the buying guide but am still not 100% sure on a few things.

I am very new to this so I would really appreciate any advice. I've just begun upgrading all my audio so am now up to the phono stage and amp.

Speakers
Monitor Audio Gold 200 4G
Sensitivity 89dB 1 watt

Source 1 - Vinyl
Audio Technica AT-LP7
MM  Cart - Output 4mV – 4.5mV

Source 2 - Digital
Marantz ND8006 – mostly 16-bit/44khz

Most of my listening is on vinyl so this is the main priority. But when working/background music is usually ND8060. If the amp will also make the digital source sound nicer that’s just a bonus.


Questions
1.      I am considering the Torii Mk IV but just want to be sure it has enough power to drive my speakers smoothly during dynamic/peak passages in music without clipping. My ideal listening volume is about 85db (90dB for peak passages) (measured via iPhone db meter) so from the buying guide chart it seems to be a good match, but I just wanted to get everyone's thoughts?

2.      I am currently using a Marantz PM7200 Integrated amp (25W Class A solid state) with the built-in phono output of my AT-LP7 record player. I am unsure whether I should get a ZP3 first, and then later adding the Torii MkIV or the other way around? My budget unfortunately doesn’t allow for both right now so would appreciate some guidance.

3.      Anyone know of any resellers/distributors in Australia?


Look forward to hearing back. Thanks in advance!


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Colin B
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Re: Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice
Reply #1 - 05/08/19 at 06:27:14
 
1. If the wattage is about the same as the amp you're replacing and the amp you're replacing gets loud enough you should be fine.

2. Are you using the phono in on the Marantz? It looks like the AT-LP7 has a built-in phono stage so it's up to you either way. Either use the integrated phono pre in the turntable, or bypass it and use a preamp elsewhere (either the Zp3 or the integrated phono pre in the Marantz). Either way you slice it: the Torii IV with the integrated phono stage in the LP7 or a ZP3 into an aux- or cd-in on the Marantz will sound quite nice.

3. Decware is direct from manufacturer, so no. That said, since it's all bespoke builds without a distributor middleman you can generally get more amp for the buck (which you'll immediately eat on trans-pacific shipping).
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vinyltubenewbie
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Re: Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice
Reply #2 - 05/08/19 at 08:55:47
 
Thank you for the reply!

Quote:
1. If the wattage is about the same as the amp you're replacing and the amp you're replacing gets loud enough you should be fine.

It is ok most of the time, but on some dynamic parts it struggles I can hear some distortion. Plus this amp switches from class A to AB at some point so I am not sure of the actual "quality" of the watts it produces. I read Steve's post about the first watt and so from what I understood I thought the watts in the Torii would be much more efficient, but I am just not sure. If they are the same quality as the marantz, it may not be enough. would love to hear more thoughts on this...

Quote:
2. Are you using the phono in on the Marantz? It looks like the AT-LP7 has a built-in phono stage so it's up to you either way. Either use the integrated phono pre in the turntable, or bypass it and use a preamp elsewhere (either the Zp3 or the integrated phono pre in the Marantz). Either way you slice it: the Torii IV with the integrated phono stage in the LP7 or a ZP3 into an aux- or cd-in on the Marantz will sound quite nice.

the phono input on the marantz is not that great, much lower gain than the LP7 and also does something weird to the tone. The LP7 is much better but there is definitely a noticeable noise floor on quieter records. I guess I was thinking if I use the ZP3 I would improve upon this, clean up the tone a little but then I am not sure if the marantz would then negate these effects. On the other hand if I bypass the ZP3 and use the Torii instead of the Marantz, the end tone should be much nicer but there will still be the noise floor issue from the LP7 phono out - or would a Torii amp clean that up?

Quote:
3. Decware is direct from manufacturer, so no. That said, since it's all bespoke builds without a distributor middleman you can generally get more amp for the buck (which you'll immediately eat on trans-pacific shipping).

Ahh ok I get it. Yes shipping is very expensive but I think still worth it for the quality of these amps.
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Ace-Tone
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Re: Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice
Reply #3 - 05/08/19 at 16:12:51
 
Hey vinyl,   Start with the Tori...Decware amps are very revealing and will tell you which sources need upgrading!  Keep an eye out in the classifieds while you save, ZP3 is a must, and they do come up for sale. Many times a seller will work with you while you gather the funds (at least that has been my experience).
Good luck and enjoy the journey!
Ace
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Colin B
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Re: Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice
Reply #4 - 05/08/19 at 16:31:22
 
Quote:
It is ok most of the time, but on some dynamic parts it struggles I can hear some distortion. Plus this amp switches from class A to AB at some point so I am not sure of the actual "quality" of the watts it produces. I read Steve's post about the first watt and so from what I understood I thought the watts in the Torii would be much more efficient, but I am just not sure. If they are the same quality as the marantz, it may not be enough. would love to hear more thoughts on this...

Gotcha. Based on the speakers that you have and your preferred listening volume, my guess is that you're in class A most of the time and it's switching to AB during those parts that you hear distortion. FWIW, class A vs. class AB is a tradeoff: class A is a cleaner signal path at the cost of noticeably higher power draw (and by extension waste heat rejection), AB is more efficient and runs cooler but has distortion between the two halves of the signal drivers. As an aside, the first watt post is mostly about how an amp that sounds poor at one watt of output (that is, not really adding anything to the input signal besides stepping up the voltage to run speakers) will still sound poor even if it puts out hundreds of watts, or to use an analogy: a really awesome house with a shitty foundation will always be a house with a shitty foundation.

Quote:
the phono input on the marantz is not that great, much lower gain than the LP7 and also does something weird to the tone. The LP7 is much better but there is definitely a noticeable noise floor on quieter records. I guess I was thinking if I use the ZP3 I would improve upon this, clean up the tone a little but then I am not sure if the marantz would then negate these effects. On the other hand if I bypass the ZP3 and use the Torii instead of the Marantz, the end tone should be much nicer but there will still be the noise floor issue from the LP7 phono out - or would a Torii amp clean that up?

So the tradeoff is either a good sounding but noisey phono pre in the LP7 or a quiet but not great sounding phono pre in the Marantz, got it. You can't fix the noisey pre with an amplifier (things in the signal path are only additive, regardless of what people say about fancy cables removing noise) so if that's a significant problem I'd go with the ZP3 first. On the other hand, the TORII will be a factor for both varieties of input so depending on your split between records and digital it might make sense to go with the TORII even though you have a noisey preamp. Either way you won't have to deal with the lame integrated phono stage in the PM7200.
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will
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Re: Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice
Reply #5 - 05/09/19 at 02:09:14
 
Hello vinyl,

A few thoughts.

Your being "across the water," I sympathize with your amplified need for careful considerations, especially avoiding unknown changes you might want after getting your Decware.

Steve talks a lot about the first watt, important for ultimate sound quality, but also about extended usable power within a given wattage. As I understand it, together, he optimizes the sound quality from low to high listening levels. Widening the "useful," excellent sounding wattage range as far as he can, compared to many amps, Decware can seem more powerful than its measurements imply. Once tuned to your system, you will likely be able to drive a Torii into distortion, but I suspect you will find Steve's 25 watt amp to have an exceptional beauty range before distortion, from low to high listening levels, seeming like a more powerful amp.

And by all reports, he has taken this further with his recent modification work, improving all aspects of the sound and making the amps act more powerful again than their rated wattage would imply. Have you been reading about Steve's modifications? I can't personally speak to these, but having done similar treatments in my amps, and reading reports of Steve's, I think you would do well to consider the modifications for whatever amp you buy. Articulate and musical cap bypass work, and upgraded resistors to already really nice designs can create pretty impressive results!

Another thought. I am sorry I can't recall the details, but maybe someone on the forum can fill this out. I have a vague memory of rare issues between the Torii IV and some speakers. Perhaps something about the MKIVs output transformer design's "handshake" with certain speakers??? I suspect this would not be a problem with your speakers, but to be sure, after you get confident with your direction and potential choices, it may be worth trying to talk with Steve to discuss remaining questions...maybe Skype or whatever...Perhaps call or email Sarah (Decware's front person) and see if you can set a time to talk with Steve?

Exciting times ahead!

Good Luck,

Will
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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vinyltubenewbie
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Re: Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice
Reply #6 - 05/09/19 at 10:32:17
 
Thanks everyone for their replies, it has helped a lot. I am now definitely leaning towards getting the Torii first. I am going to trial using a Vincent PHO 701 with a rolled RCA black plate 5814A triple mica tube. It should be an improvement on the noisy LP7 phono out and should hold until I can also afford the ZP3. I think this with the Torii should be a good first step.

I guess my only hesitance is still about speaker matching and being sure it can drive these speakers well. I was mainly hanging on the below points made by Steve, and have after some research found that the PM7200 switches to AB mode at approx 25W. I also have to turn the volume knob up to 70% or so to get to a resonable listening level with proper dynamics. At low volumes, the sound is very thin, which leads me to think there are some inefficiencies in the design of this amp coupled with my speakers, which I am hoping the Torii would overcome.

Quote:
These same customers after trying Decware gear will the report that even our 2 watt SET amplifier paired with efficient speakers has better dynamics and weight than their high power solid state multi-way system had which they find simply amazing. It's the exact opposite of the the propaganda that claims more power is better.


Quote:
Since usable power is largely enhanced with class A operation you want to watch out for amps boasting high power figures because they go into class AB operation quickly to get the efficiency up


Quote:
not all low power amps have a high percentage of usable power.  Some have nearly 100% usable power, while others may have less than 50%. The determining factor is the design of the amplifier itself.


Quote:
Once I had a customer with Magnapans who was on his 3rd 250 watt solid state amp and was concluding that his maggies simply didn't have any bass.  I sent him home with a 2 watt Zen amp and while we both knew it wouldn't get real loud, he was stunned that his speakers now had convincing weight and bass for the very first time since he's owned them


According to this, I have a feeling my Marantz amp at 25W is probably not as efficient than the Torii would be. It would be amazing if I could listen at lower volumes and still hear the weight and bass as described above.

But yes I agree it would be great if Steve would confirm - I have filled in the Contact form asking for some advice on this and am waiting to hear back. I will be sure to post any news here.

Quote:
Articulate and musical cap bypass work, and upgraded resistors

Regarding mods no I haven't - I am not sure where to start. Can you point me in the right direction? I would love to learn more about this.
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will
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Re: Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice
Reply #7 - 05/09/19 at 16:44:31
 
Vinyl, just for clarification, when I eluded to occasional speaker compatibility issues, it was not in terms of volume...may have had to do the amp's being designed to directly/quickly respond to impedance changes of speakers, the rare speakers having some issue with this???

I can't remember the details. Maybe someone else recalls....or maybe Steve will comment if he sees this.

And when I said you may well be able to run the Torii into distortion, I did not mean to say you could necessarily do it easily, just that by the top of its volume range (depending on the voltage of your sources and on how easily it drives your speakers) you can likely get it to distort. Whether you could safely listen that loud, I can't say. Too many variables for me to figure out with different room volumes and surfaces, source voltages, speakers being made and measured in different ways, etc.

My Decware HR-1 speakers are rated at 92.5 dB but also 4 ohm. And I am feeding the Torii with a high voltage signal, guessing around 3 volts from my DAC/Zbit into my up to 30 volt CSP3 running at 2-3 o'clock. Not having measured, can't be sure, but imagine over 10 volts??? going into the Torii with my setup and settings, where the old standard for CD players and DACS was in the 2 volt range... With this double voltage hit, unusual, but with peaks on some recordings, and at immersion listening levels in my room, it is possible for me to hear a little distortion with all 3 components running higher on their gains. Here, with the DAC/Zbit only, or the DAC/CSP3 only, I think it would be too loud for me to listen to the Torii near its distortion level...

I strongly suspect you will experience improvements in low level listening, and in high levels compared to your amp. And you may may well have plenty of headroom with a Torii in your setting. Just thinking it would be wise to get a little input from Steve, his having had so much experience helping people with different systems and rooms.

You will find a lot of the modification story in the threads describing the development of the 25th Anniversary Zen amp. This was Steve's foundation for modifying the other components...A long thread, but worth a read! I also linked a few others that are related, the last one having more threads related to the seriously upgraded version of the Zen amp...an amp integrating innovations from all of Steve's years of developing many amps and going deeper in. I don't recall where the page for modifications and costs for other components are, but have seen it!@#$%

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1510887200
https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1526212150
https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?board=UFO25

Fun Stuff!
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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will
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Re: Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice
Reply #8 - 05/09/19 at 18:44:31
 
I found the Anniversary Modification thread with more specifics for different components, price sheet, etc!

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1541785109
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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will
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Re: Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice
Reply #9 - 05/09/19 at 18:48:16
 
And here is one specifically about the Torii MKIV modifications.

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1550883971
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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vinyltubenewbie
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Re: Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice
Reply #10 - 05/10/19 at 08:04:26
 
Thanks for these links! I've had a read of these and the 25th anniversary mods sound like a must have. Especially in my case it will give that extra little bit of power which may be just what my system needs. And I won't really have the luxury of being able to send it back for a quick upgrade (shipping is $1,300+ USD!!)

Now just to get Steve's input... but it sounds like I am on the right track here thanks again for the input.
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will
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Re: Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice
Reply #11 - 05/10/19 at 19:14:18
 
You're welcome vinyl. Though there is likely not much reason for concern, I am glad you are seeking assurance you are not too close to any border line.

With the right setup, Decware's ability for complex, dense and balanced music at low and medium listening levels is a really good thing for me. But also, if you optimize your system and room, the pretty unbelievable soundstage potential is quite seductive. I prefer my speakers when pushed a bit.Seduced by spacious, complete and harmonically natural musical presentation, and a great soundstage, higher volumes complete a deep immersion I seem to crave these days. Most nights before going to bed, the room dark, I sit in amazement as the music takes over my senses and consciousness.

I think you are right, that Steve's modifications will support more sense of power, as well as other meaningful refinements. It sounds from his impressions that his modifications brought the Torii to a slightly unexpected fruition, the Torii design responding to the mods in a big way. These observations make sense to me. The work I have done on mine certainly took the amp to seriously deep levels of refinement in every way, including dynamics and power.

I also have my amp toned down using OB3 VRs, 807 power tubes, and ECC88 input tubes, all of which lowering peak power compared to the stock tubes. But I for one, much prefer this sound in my setting, and am glad to have the flexibility of this amp's five tube sets, all quite useful for tuning to tastes in a given space if desired. Also the bass and impedance switches are real tools for optimizing power feel and sound. Loving to change things up now and then, and preferring a more open and complex sound than stock, some power leeway is really important for me.

I don't recall having checked my decibel levels except cursorily a long time ago just to be sure I was not getting into dangerous levels. I  just checked with the meter we got for my wife's iPhone. The app is called Audio Test on the phone, a suite from Performance Audio, the loudness meter is called Decibel Meter Pro. At high listening levels I find fully complete in my system/room, the meter set @.5 seconds, typical test tunes ran ~45-70 averages, peaking @ 80 or 81. Cranked as loud as I would ever listen, really higher being into some discomfort on a dense and dynamic tune, the meter showed averages of 55-75 and a peak of 88. Same song, the meter set on .25 seconds, averages went from ~50 - 80 on this tune, the peak close @ 89.

So who knows....It will be interesting to see...I have never heard your amp, and our meters are likely different, but in theory, with the speed, dynamics, density and natural clarity of Decware, you may find yourself enjoying a fulfilling sound at a bit lower measured listening levels and without running into distortion!

Looking forward to hearing how things turn out!
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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vinyltubenewbie
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Re: Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice
Reply #12 - 05/11/19 at 10:05:12
 
Thanks for all your input, really appreciate it.

I have replaced the LP7 phono out with the Vincent 701 and I no longer have to turn my amp's volume to 70%. Around 50% does the trick now and it gets to 80dB or so. So it seems that the LP7 phono was just not amplifying the signal that well, requiring me turn up the amp much more, and increasing the noise floor in doing so.

I no longer have to turn the amp up so loud, the noise floor is almost gone, but the sound quality is still not that great. However I don't have quality interconnects for the TT to Vincent connection so this could be why. I am going to try upgrading these and depending on how this pans out may just have to bite the bullet and get the ZP3 as well.

I will be trying this cable and will report back for anyone interested.
Quote:
R3i CuL - UPOCC Copper Litz
4 UPOCC copper Litz conductors per channel. These are insulated in PE.
Cable damping and insulation in foamed teflon tube
Tinned copper braid shield
ETI Kryo RCAs (silver plated copper)
Finished in a rich red and braid - double thickness


For now, at least this gives me more confidence that the Torii should have enough power to drive my speakers given this current setup is not doing too bad dB wise.

I look forward to hearing back from Steve and will definitely report back once I get more information.
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Tommy Freefall
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Re: Decware newbie - Torii MkIV / ZP3 advice
Reply #13 - 05/11/19 at 20:58:27
 
"But yes I agree it would be great if Steve would confirm - I have filled in the Contact form asking for some advice on this and am waiting to hear back. I will be sure to post any news here."


Vinyl, if you’re seeking answers to your inquiries fairly soon, I highly recommend you write down your questions and call Steve to discuss. He is inundated with email and I believe his preferred mode is a brief conversation on the phone. You will have the opportunity for follow-up questions and in probably 5 minutes get all the answers you need. Steve simply does not have the bandwidth to type up responses to the roughly 100 emails he receives each day. In the last couple of years I’ve probably called Steve a dozen times with questions - 90% of the time he is available to take the call.
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