Anyone with a ZLC ...

I just got my ZLC and I've already blown both fuses.  I have less than 3 AMPS load connected to it (ZP3 .5A, CSP3 .5A, ZMA 1.5A, ZR2 .1A, TT .1A, DVD OPPO .1A).  When I first plugged the unit into my Leviton hospital grade, surge protecting outlets it tripped my 20 amp breaker.  The breaker held when reset.  I was checking about some system hum and I unplugged everything from the ZLC and the ZLC from the wall.  After reconnecting everything, the outlet was still hot but the ZLC fuses were blown.

Anybody have any ideas?  Nothing in the manual about this as far as I could see.

I'm waiting for him to call back.  The only thing I can think of is that when I plugged everything back in, the amps were on and something surged.

Of course, in my neck of the woods, fuses are hard to come by.  I found a pair of T5A, 240V fuses at my local True Value.  Most of what they have are for christmas lights!  These shouldn't blow given my load but who knows?

I got mine about an hour ago, going to give run in an hour or so. Bummer on the fuse, I can’t imagine it having the wrong fuse in it, it’s looking like they really burn these things in when they go through all the final steps after building them.
I have to say the packaging is pretty impressive, it took about 20 minutes to get at the thing!
I hope you get it resolved, I have the same problem here finding anything like a fuse, I’ve been meaning to get a full set of internal and external from Steve for backup and tubes too, guess I’ll be on that ASAP, if something goes for me I’m out of luck also.
Keep us posted on what you hear.
Best,
Scott

Steve will update the manual but he said the toroid transformer is so efficient that if the 60Hz AC is at its peak when you plug it in it can pop the breaker.  He said that once it's plugged in to just leave it that way.  As far as the fuses, the 5A blew immediately which Steve said was inevitable given that it's a 10A toroid.  The 8A may be borderline but he put them in for safety sake.  He's sending me some fuses, hopefully some 10A.  There is one red herring in my power and that's that I have Leviton "surge" protection outlets.  Steve looked them up and while he couldn't see any problem, he suggested that if my problem persists that they could be somehow contributing.

If some of what I wrote doesn't make sense, I may have got it wrong since I really don't understand much of this.

Hope the new fuses get to you quickly. Fingers crossed that you don’t have any more problems, but it sounds like there is a chance you may have to replace the outlets. Keep us posted on how it goes.

Steve sent me a pile of fuses so I could blow a few.  They were all 8A and fortunately I didn't blow any.  I first turned off my breaker to the outlet and plugged everything in but with the ZLC switches off.  After turning the breaker back on, the voltmeter read 120 V and I turned on all of the switches without incident.  I'll see later how it does with the power down and power up cycle.  I haven't decided whether to use the ZLC switches or the component switches.  The only difference I can see is that by using the ZLC switches I might save wear and tear on the component switches which are likely harder to replace when worn out.

But here's the amazing part.  At start up, my ZMA meters were 8mA higher than where I'd left them last night!  I had to dial them back.  After 45 minutes of warm up they lost only 1 to 2 mA, if that.  Any ideas what's up with that?

Steve said the other day something about the high efficiency of the toroid transformer and I think there is something in the manual about it being super fast in supplying power for peaks.  I wonder if it makes the amps more efficient somehow?  IDK, I sent him an email letting him know my ZLC was on-line and I mentioned the bias effect.  Maybe he'll shed some light on it.

Edit:  As the ZMA has more fully warmed up the bias has lowered more but I think I'm still dialed about 4mA lower than without the ZLC.

So far so good.  The other day Steve told me to keep the ZLC plugged in always.  When the switches are all off, it doesn't draw any current but the toroid stays charged.  I plan on using the ZLC switches to turn components on and off.  The ZR2 switch will stay on all the time though.

Archie,

Your idea of using the switches on the ZLC to power components on and off may be the way to go. Keeps the individual component switches from wearing out.

Ha. It's funny that you say that, because last night I tried powering everything off using the ZLC switches and had to end up making a note so I'd remember what was what.  I just got through using a label maker here at work to make some labels to stick on when I get home.

Does anyone know the actual hole size that the plugs fill?  I found white-ish plugs but I don't know the size without pulling a plug which has proved difficult without taking the ZLC cover off.  I think they are 3/4 inch though.  Or I could use a white paint-pen on the black covers.

I just used the exact same label maker to make labels, Scott!  Are they sticking ok?

Adam, 3/4" looks right, but white paint pen printing might look pretty cool.

At the moment I'm only turning one or two items on and off on that system and I have those two plugged into the 1 and 2 spots, easy to remember. The others (DVR, TV, Universal player) I just leave on all the time. (The TV has its own standby state when plugged in and the ZLC switch is on).

What a fabulous idea to use the hole plugs as labels !!!   Great Job!  

The hole diameter is 0.87 or 7/8 inch.

Steve

Steve, I'm not sure how to interpret what you said about line voltage and bias relative to what I observed.  The ZLC voltmeter read 120V, which is very likely what I always have (my electric meter has a voltage readout that stays pretty steady at 240V) but my meters read 8mA higher with the ZLC than without.  Once I dialed the bias back it has stayed constant.  Have you looked at your ZMA bias with and without the ZLC?  I don't know if this changes anything about how my ZMA runs but I thought it was an interesting effect.

If you think about it, noise on a 50/60 cycle wave such as the AC voltage at the outlet, would not necessarily be in phase with the fundamental frequency of 50/60 cycles.  You can be certain that any out-of-phase signals, or DC entering into the primary of a power transformer is going to create heat and lower efficiency.  My guess is that your amp runs cooler because there is no longer any noise on its primary windings.  

Steve

Call me a perfectionist...

I'm thinking grey or silver stickers with black hand written lettering. I think that will look cool.

HK

I surely do need another one, Lon!  

That’s funny, Scott! Great minds think alike

And one final note: the ZLC continues to "seemingly" deliver about 5 more volts into the P10 than it shows entering into the ZLC on the gauge in the back.

Whether this is really happening or not. . . . well I've decided not to worry about it. I consulted several other P10 owners and they didn't seem to feel that it would make any difference. I've gotten pretty good at convincing myself not to worry about certain things so I think I'll succeed in just forgetting about that soon.

Thanks Scott. The modded ZROCK2's sound really threw me for a loop and it has been one of the biggest "break-in" processes I've been through. Hopefully I have the best possible sound now with all these components. I'm looking forward to just settling in and listening.

I don't know, I'd like to think so. But. . . both read the same incoming voltage until I connect them together. The P10 believes it is receiving more volts. I don't think it's a big deal but I don't think it's just the gauges.

"Something is happening. . . but you don't know what it is. . . do you. . . Mr. Jones."

Received my ZLC on Friday. Plugged it in the wall, connected ZMA, ZP3, Jade, Ambre, Zstage and TT. I just noticed with all the ZLC switches off I can hear a loud hum every few minutes coming from the ZLC, Is this normal? The hum only lasts a couple of seconds and then it stops until the next hum starts. Any thoughts are appreciated.

The problem you are having is caused by a pulsating DC offset on the electrical mains of your house.  It happens when someone uses a hair dryer or electric heater with high/low settings and operates it on the low setting.  The low settings are achieved by using a diode in series with the heating element which causes a pulsed DC offset on that circuit.  It wouldn't matter if you have things plugged-in to the ZLC or not.  Large toroidal transformers are the first to complain (hum) when there is a unresolvable problem on the AC line, such as pulsating DC offset.

When I say unresolvable, I mean from a sonic standpoint.  Many smaller devices in your home while equally effected, are perhaps 10 times harder to hear the DC offset on so the problem goes un-noticed.

The effect is particularly bad when the offending heating device is on the same circuit (breaker) as the transformer. That said, it is also possible for it to happen when a neighbor uses a hair dryer, so it may not even be in your own home.

Toroidal transformers are particularly sensitive to this due to their efficiency and the larger the transformer the more you'll be able to hear it happen.

Basically the ZLC is letting you know there is an issue with the power feeding the outlet it is plugged into, and issue that even if you weren't using a large toroidal isolation transformer would still be there poisoning your sound, making things flip from sounding great to less than great and back again.

No harm will come to the ZLC from a situation like this, but it certainly warrants trying to find the cause because it would be too distracting to ignore.

Steve

ZLC is in the house and all hooked up!! No hums, nothing blew and the ZP3 is quiet as a mouse! The sound’s damn good too!

I just received my ZLC yesterday. My first Decware product. It looks and feels impressive, but it immediately tripped breakers on two different outlets on two different panels. After several tries at this, it's completely dead. Both fuses are burned out. I never even got to plug any devices in. I've yet to receive an email back, but either I got a dud or it's somehow unusable in my home. This sucks  I have a $900 paperweight.

Same issue I originally posted about.  Steve sent me some fuses and I have been successful at getting things started by first turning off my breaker and then plugging the ZLC into the wall.  I hook everything up and then turn the breaker on and then turn on the individual ZLC switches.  Steve said the toroid can pull a load at plug in that will trip the breaker.  I'm not sure why the fuses blow but I haven't had the problem since my initial startup attempts and following  my startup procedure.

Now that there has been a second startup event with blown fuses, I would think Steve ought to consider including extra fuses with the ZLC.

Yes, get a call in to Steve. I've had mine trip my breaker once when I relocated it after trying it out a third time with my main system, but not blow a fuse yet at all. But house and apartment wiring can be quite different, different loads etc.

I'm pretty certain Steve can guide you to a method that will put the ZLC into use, and that you'll enjoy it a lot when you have. . . .

Wow, interesting developments with the ZLC.
I want one but I'm afraid of it at the moment.
I live in an older house and I'm not sure it could handle the jolt.

I think the plugging in of the ZLC can cause a breaker to trip but I think if there is an active load on the ZLC as well, it can cause the fuse to blow.  That's why I think having all the switches off and nothing plugged it to it when the breaker is turned back on is the safest.  In fact, turning the breaker off and then plugging the ZLC in seems the "safest."  I have a nearly dedicated circuit (just a single hospital grade outlet and some small task lights in front of it).

Lots of "I think" in this post since I can't say for sure.  

You have to turn off your breakers, plug in the ZLC, and the turn the breakers back on?  WOW!

There's no way I had 7 amps being drawn when I tried it. Nothing more than a couple android chargers (with nothing charging) were on the circuit and I reset the breaker three times. Besides that, the internal fuses blew also. I emailed you and Sarah and got no response today. I'm willing to try it again with new fuses and absolutely nothing else plugged in to the circuit, but at this point, I'm unhappy with the situation and the response. An email would be appreciated.

Steve,

Despite what you've written, I popped my 20amp breaker more than once with nothing else plugged into it when just plugging in my ZLC.  If the toroidal surge is the culprit then it must be big.  I do have those Leviton surge protect outlets installed which might, in my case, make a difference.  The reason I've turned off the breaker before plugging in the ZLC is that it saves a step (since it pops the breaker anyway) and seems to offer protection to the fuses during plug-in/turn-on.

My steady state operation has been flawless.  I leave everything on at the device and just turn the ZLC switches on and off.

Wow, if every business had this level of CS, what a wonderful world it would be!  

Glad it's up and running.  Breakers can get weak with age.  Mine always reset without tripping but once running, I try not to touch it!

I think the first time I popped a breaker, the fuses didn't blow.  I'm not 100% sure but if so, that seems really odd.

If anything were suspect it'd be the breakers.  I've seen old Cutler Hammer breakers not trip with wires intentionally crossed into a dead short.

Also plugging it to a powe strip with surge protector would help? But thar is another additional connector that may degrade the sound ?

atacgene,

That's exactly how mine went when I first got it.  I am using 8A fuses but I power off the circuit before plugging the ZLC in.  Once everything is hooked up I turn the breaker back on and only then do I turn the ZLC switches on.  That's worked for me the few times I've had to disconnect it.

An explosion?  

Scott

I’m not trying to make light of the problems that a few others are having, but I’ve had mine for a month or so, and all I did was plug everything in to it and plug it in to the wall, and have had no problems at all. For prospective buyers to consider.

Finally the fuse arrived today, (I can't find the 10 Amp fuse in Home Depot, ??!!) and now the ZLC is working nicely. I did not need to shut down the breaker before plugging in (I forgot) and this time no fuse or breaker problems.  
Quick impression, mainly from vinyl rig that i am listening to last few days there is perhaps a wider soundstage and  better stage, more 3D imaging/air. but this is based on memory since I can't do A/B comparison, as I use all Decware tube gear. Only the Turntable, Decware Torri Jr and Z Stage is plugged into the ZLC.  The phono stage remains with the old isolator ($150).

I then switched to CD player --> DAC, all plugged to ZLC. Again only from acoustic memory, there is a bit smoother/analogue feel, perhaps also better sound stage. Since I have not listened to CD for at least few days it is harder to compare.

Will report more later.

Any reason why Steve sent these units with  8amp fuses instead of 10 Amp ? I am confused, esp the unit states only "use 10 Amp fuse". If 10 Amp fuses are there to begin with then there would be less fuss.
I hope Decware would spend more time on post production testing, perhaps. sending to customers to test out. I had same issue with fuses with Torri Jr, kept blowing the 2-3 amp fuses until he told me to use 5-6 amp.

So I suppose some would be fine using 8 amp ?

Anyway I am running  10. amp, using all 6 plugs now. I am currently running multi-channel on my SACD player so all 6 receptacles are used, working flawlessly. All the preamp/amps are also connected the ZLC, except for the power amp for the rear channel.
based on tonight's evaluation (from memory, no A/B) there is a better sense of space, less fatigue sound, the sound stage has moved back, less forward, giving more air and so the balance is more natural. The center channel usually has some issue of being a bit too forward but now this effect is less.
There also seems to be a quieter background/lower noise floor because my L/R channel is known to be defective (old SACD player) but now it seems this noise is lower with better S/N ratio. Or maybe I am able to listen to music at lower volume with better results now?

Does the ZLC require some burning in to get better ?

Steve did mention somewhere that a power regenerator like the PS audio can be used together with ZLC. I think he stated the power regenerator can be plugged into the ZLC so it can supply a clean AC current to the regenerator. Have you tried this ?
Opps - just saw that you did comment on feeding ZLC ---> PS10. you are afraid of noise issue? I suppose there was not much improvement with that setup?

Can someone with a ZLC and a voltmeter measure the voltage at the ZLC plugs versus the wall plug?  I assume the ZLC voltmeter is for the incoming voltage.  Whether  the ZLC ups the voltage by 5V or it's something else would be nice to know.

So, your ZLC is raising the voltage 3V+?  I guess Lon's experience is real.  Does this matter?  Seems like it's not something desirable although maybe if steady state, it doesn't matter -- unless it's feeding a power conditioner that's trying to bring the voltage back down?

You are probably right.  I've never paid attention to the voltage before.  Now that we have something measuring it it comes to our attention.

The only reason I got a PSAudio P5 was that I determined a lot of my difficulties with fine tuning my system with tubes, wires, feet, etc, were created by inconsistent voltage. I was using a Pi Audio Uber, which is a nice, relatively transparent power filter. With it feeding my power, I was trying to find a really good balance between dynamic warmth and spacious fine detail. But I would get it "right," and it would change. Mostly I noticed a thickness that was difficult to tame consistently. Sometimes notably better, and sometimes notably worse, in time I figured it out with a volt meter...With my Toriis and CSP3, higher voltage made the sound bigger/thicker, and lower made it leaner, more spacious.

Finally, for the level of refinement and consistency I craved, the problems were not night versus day power quality (though this had some effect, the Uber did a lot to smooth it out). It was more the variable voltage from the power company in my case. I think I recall, from about 119 to about 123, most often in the 120-123 range according to the meter I had.

So I got a regenerator to try for its consistent voltage. I did not like the P5's "signature" at first after the Uber, but after struggling to find better sound with the right feet, fuse, cable and settings, I came to like it in time. Even so, a realization was not using it for my source gear, computer, DAC, etc, where its remaining lack of transparency (warmish signature) was more obvious in defeating the space and fine detail I wanted. For source power I use a modified Brickwall with a Shunyata plugin filter which allows space and fine detail more cleanly. But for my Decware amps, once I got the P5 cleaned up to my satisfaction, it was a breakthrough for my continued tuning. I suspect what you are referring to Scott, about Steve saying the amps didn't care about voltage, was likely in terms of damage, not sound. There are clearly sound differences with voltage changes with my Decware amps...If you have a variac around, or use a PSaudio regenerator, you can increase and decrease voltage to hear these differences.

The regenerator fixed variable voltage, allowed setting voltage wherever I like it, along with other nice tuning tools for your power. Finding the best phase, multiwave/sine settings, and voltage for my system, room and tastes, I like 118 volts, to me, lots better than the variable, usually much higher voltages from my wall. With the P5, my tuning is based on a pretty consistent power, and associated, sound.

This is not to say that my regenerator is necessarily better than a ZLC or similar, especially with relatively stable voltage. But with highly variable voltage, this is a real sound consideration for me.

Pal, do you get an increase in voltage once it goes through the ZLC as well?

Oh.  I can't see the meter on the back of my ZLC but I think I'm fortunate and have fairly steady power.  There are some advantages to being part of a rural electric coop I guess.

Could be.  My transformer is in my front yard and I'm the end of that line.  I have a voltage readout on my meter which seems very steady.  What I don't have is a meter that I can check my outlets.

ARGH! That is not supposed to happen, and doesn't happen with mine.

I'll call Decware on Monday and report my ZLC. I'm sure it's just one of those things. I certainly was not intending to cast a shadow on the Decware team. The rest of my Decware is fabulous and I can't imagine listening without my ZMA.25, CP3.25, ZP3.25. etc. I was a little hesitant to reach out right away to Steve, I know they are slammed. I wanted to make sure I wasn't having a "stupid moment" with the ZLC before I called. My ZLC has really made a positive difference with my setup. Thanks for the comments

Over the weekend and yesterday I played around once again with adding the ZLC to my main system. I used the exact same power cord for both the ZLC and the PS Audio Power Plant P10 so that variable was eliminated as a factor.

As I had issues using it to power the PS Audio Power Plant P10 and then the rest of the system before (it seemed to add a few percents of increased voltage for some reason, or at least that is what the P10 tells me) I instead first tried using the ZLC to power all the analog components and the P10 to power all the digital. I was able to let it all simmer overnight and listened for a few hours late on Saturday. The sound was different, can't say I preferred it. It seemed a bit tighter, drier, brighter than my default (P10 powering all components). There also seemed a bit less depth to the soundstage, everything pushed forward a bit more. I played with the modes and settings on the P10 but little ameliorated that.

So before retiring I reversed the set up with all my analog components powered by the P10 and the ZLC powering all my digital components. Then I let all simmer overnight and revisited the system late on Sunday. This was a better configuration, bringing me closer to the sound that I had before with some differences. Playing with the settings on the P10 had a happier benefit on the analog components than the digital. I was able to regain that depth of soundstage, and much of the tightness, brightness and dryness to the overall sound dissipated. I left that configuration in place and listened with that setup through yesterday afternoon and got a handle on the sound and enjoyed it with a lot of material, but I missed a certain warmth and "ease" that I felt was there when all components were powered by the P10.

So yesterday evening I removed the ZLC from the system and restored all components to the outlets on the P10 and let it all simmer and I have to say, today. . . I eased into the restored familiar sound and noticed better bass and better dynamics as well as a smooth ease to the sound. So I've put the ZLC back into my least used system, the headphone system, and think I've done due diligence and I'll let it do its good work there.

I wish I could quit tinkering with the setup and just kick back and enjoy the music. . . . I do do that for long stretches but reading here fires up my imagination and I do enjoy the experimentation, especially when it bears new fruit or ratifies my previous choices. This is such an involving hobby if you let it be so.

Well, I'll note that I got the P10 brand new at the lowest official price I've seen for a new one, about 60 percent of the listed price you quote.

And yes, I find it significantly better. I'd not want to be without it. What I can do with the P10 as far as tuning and tweaking is really amazing to me.

The ZLC is great for my headphone only system, a system that I allow myself to have lowered expectations for and that I don't use as frequently. I'm glad I have it. But it's my third favorite of three electrical components I have: the P10, the Power Plant Premier, and the ZLC.

Do you even need to plug in your ZMC1?  I don't plug mine in.  I think the plug is more for a ground issue -- the manual talks about this.  The ZMC1 doesn't use any power.