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Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options? (Read 7557 times)
HeyWaj10
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Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options?
09/13/18 at 16:40:47
 
Hi Everyone,
Long time lurker, new member to these forums. I'm in the process of searching for speaker/amp combinations that synergize well for primarily prog rock/metal music. Bands like Opeth, Tool, Porcupine Tree, Dream Theater, etc. make up the majority of my music listening sessions. I do expand into some jazz, orchestral, and vocalists, but that makes up maybe 10% of my listening.

In my search to date, most of the mainstream speakers just don't cut the mustard for me, usually lacking drive, grip, impact, and layering/detail for these more complex music choices. I have no preference for SS or tubes, so I'm open to anything.

Listening room is a small/medium office. Budget is ideally $3,000/pair for speakers, but will extend to ~$4k depending on requirements for associated equipment. For the gear, looking to stay in the ~$3k range for amp + source.

Thanks so much!

Scott
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Jeff of Arabica
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Re: Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options?
Reply #1 - 09/13/18 at 16:54:24
 
Hi Scott,
Welcome to the forum!  Sounds like a very interesting project you are pursuing.  

With regard to speakers you have tested, when you say "mainstream," can you offer a couple examples to give it a little more context?  

Also, with regard to speaker sound attributes, is it the highs, mids, or lows that have thus far been the biggest challenge?  When you say "drive" are you referring to the speakers ability to keep up or power?  With that, how loud do you listen as that will have a big say as to what amp will be a good fit.  

As you know, the combinations are infinite so helping get a more specific sense of what has failed to impress thus far will go a long way to focus some of the responses you get here.

We are glad to help in any way possible.  What part of the country (or world) are you in BTW?
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HeyWaj10
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Re: Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options?
Reply #2 - 09/13/18 at 17:29:59
 
Hi Jeff,

Thanks so much for the thorough reply. I'll try answering in order:

The "mainstream" speakers I've tested to date include: B&W 803D, Aerial Acoustics 5T, Vandersteen 1c, Martin Logan ESL, Elac Debut B6 (previously owned), Magnepan 0.7, and various offerings from PSB, Paradigm, and Monitor Audio. The best reference level speakers I've heard to date are Aerial 20T (demo) and Vandersteen Model 5A Carbons (thorough session with a family friend).

The majority of the models I've auditioned over time come up short in terms of the soundstage. realism, and finer resolution. Sure, many of them can produce a nice center image with pretty well defined instruments. However, they often lack in the ability for me to pick out and "chew" on specific instruments or layers within the music. My preference in listening is less about all out "rocking out" and more about me being able to peer into the sound field and focus on various elements at a time. I have a pretty good set of ears, and I'm picky  :)

Additionally, I get really excited when the system can convey that organic texture to the guitars with a little bit of crunch when called for. To clarify, I'm not looking for a colored sound, rather I want the system to convey what the artist has recorded and the guitar tones that they choose for a particular album/track. That said, I still expect the speakers to be able to kick in the midbass and "drive" the rhythm with some snap.

Many of the standard offerings out there either have tweeters that roll off too much, hiding a lot of the recording, or they get shouty/beemy/harsh. I guess I'm looking for a sort of Goldilocks type of HF range. In line with that, most of my listening is probably in the 80-90db loudness range...with occasional peak sessions above that when feeling groovy.

Lastly, I'm in NC, USA...getting ready for Florence!

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Jeff of Arabica
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Re: Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options?
Reply #3 - 09/13/18 at 18:29:34
 
Hi Scott,

This additional information is very helpful, so thanks for elaborating.  

As you know, amp and speaker pairing is all about synergy.  There is no substitute for evaluating the combination of the two in person.  But, it is also rather impractical for many of us to do so.  

Before we start rattling off ideas, are you familiar with the upcoming Decfest next month?  I cannot even begin to tell you how important of an event this could be for you. The reason being is after researching some of the speaker models you have tested and not been all that impressed with, it is clear most of your choices were either lower efficiency or small enclosure speakers.  I am a balance freak and electrostats and small enclosure speakers often lack the balance that I desire.  For me, having that extended low end energy in the room effects high frequency perception from the tweeter.  Simply changing (reducing) low bass extension, and nothing else can cause the tweeter to come off harsh/edgy/shrill, etc.  Anyway, based on your current complaints, I think going the other direction and immersing yourself in various high-efficiency speakers (94+ dB) and nimble lower wattage amps (the Decware speciality) would be a good exercise.  Decfest will allow you to personally audition many of the speaker and amp combos from Decware.  Then you can decide which direction makes the most sense to pursue.  Seems like the speed of both the amp and speakers could very well be the answer to your prayers.
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Canary Audio Grand Reference Monos//ZMA//Zen Ultra//Taboo MKIII//Waversa DAC3//ModWright Oppo UDP-205// PS Audio P20//Canary Audio MC-10//Van den Hul Colibri "Stradivarius"//FFYX T1803 TT//SonoruS Reel-to-Reel & tube playback preamp//Tannoy Westminster Speakers
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HeyWaj10
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Re: Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options?
Reply #4 - 09/13/18 at 18:46:16
 
Hi Jeff,

Man I would love to make an event like that, just bad timing with multiple work trips these next few months before the end of year, just can't swing it unfortunately.

I do agree, however, that HE speakers with lower watt amps would be the next logical progression for me. I have a feeling I'm after the out-of-the-box design sound to give me the kinda of sound field I'm looking for. Additionally, reading the adjectives to describe the Omega speaker sound (fast, dynamic, transparent, "you are there", etc.) are the kind of terms many of the speakers I've listened to so far just did not associate with (IMO).

From reviews and the price range, it seems like Omega's Super 3 HOXRS or the Super 8 XRS models would really fit the bill for me. Of course, I have no experience in their sound yet. Additionally, do the Omega speakers still deliver top end sparkle, or do they tend to roll off?  Questions to be answered through auditions.

I fear my initial challenge is going to be listening to these internet-direct brands (both in speakers and amps) ahead of purchasing. There's simply no way I could purchase that many different models and manage the returns. May have to start finding owners within driving distance.

Scott
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armstdav
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Re: Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options?
Reply #5 - 09/13/18 at 19:26:49
 
Scott,

As a long time prog listener myself, I find the limiting factor is often the recordings rather than the equipment. I now have a system with sufficient resolution that the great recordings sound great, the good recordings sound good, and the lousy recordings sound lousy. On my previous systems, the difference was much less obvious.

So my suggestion would be to take some of your favorite recordings and play them on a system you know is sorted, whether that's at a dealer or a friend's house. If you hear what you're expecting, then you know it's possible and just need to find what works for your room and budget. If you still don't hear what you want, even on a known resolving system, then your equipment choices may be very different.

As for me, I've been on a quest for years to replace my favorite badly recorded music with much better remasters. Since I paid $1-2 40 years ago for many of them, I don't so much mind the trouble and expense.    ;)

David
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HeyWaj10
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Re: Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options?
Reply #6 - 09/13/18 at 19:53:05
 
Hi David,

I can certainly appreciate that - which is why I'm not only picky with my speaker preferences, but my music preferences as well. Prog metal bands that have lower quality (i.e. standard) recording, I relegate those albums to workout duty. But the good stuff - that's what I'll spend my dedicated time listening to on a quality system for hours. Stuff like Porcupine Tree or the standalone albums by Steven Wilson, I have those on Hi-Res.

To expand a bit further on my listening experiences so far, I will say that the recent session I spent listening to the Vandersteen 5A Carbons was about the best damn experience I've had to date. The system consisted of: Marantz SA-14S1 SACD player -> Audio Research SP-9 -> Cary Audio Monoblocks (not sure what model) -> Vandersteen 5A Carbons. Even with my genre of music, the soundstage and image of that system was outstanding. The other most notable adjective to describe it was "natural" in the most true sense of the word. Instruments, vocals, and presence just seemed correct, real and palpable. Bass was smooth, tactile, and balanced. The only thing the system may have lacked was dynamic impact and punch. However, the benefit of this system was the fact that I felt no need to crank up the volume. Even at moderate volumes, the system was just beautifully balanced.

Obviously, this system is WAY beyond my budget - but I have something to serve as a reference point for what I'm aiming for.

Scott
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Dave1210
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Re: Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options?
Reply #7 - 09/14/18 at 00:31:23
 
Hi Scott...in addition to Decware, I recommend you look into Zu Audio.

My buddy has a pair of  Zu Audio Omen Def's and he very much enjoys them for rock music.  I also had them in my room for a while.  IMO, the Zu Speakers with 2 10 inch drivers scale well for big music like modern rock and orchestra (although you likely wouldn't hear any of the latter in rotation at Zu events).  

In general, they pair well with Decware amps (still need to find the synergy as Jeff stated).  My buddy drives his with a Zen Torii MkIV, which was my favorite of the amps we tried with them (Zen CKC and ZMA).  Many have had success pairing Zu's with lower wattage SS amps as well (e.g. First Watt/Pass Labs).  

Good luck!
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Ace-Tone
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Re: Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options?
Reply #8 - 09/14/18 at 00:47:56
 
Hey Scott,
I listen in a 11' x 16' room, near field, speakers pulled out 5' from front wall and 2.5' from side walls. SE84-CKC with DM947's worked very well for me listening to mostly Prog, then rock, blues, jazz. PT, Wilson as well as Opeth, Nektar, RPWL, Riverside, Genesis, VdGG etc....But, the thing that puts icing on the listening room is treatments. A Rachel pairs with the Zu's or Omega's should work well for you too. If there are any Decwarians in your area you might be able to arrange a listen. Good luck!
I now have the SE84UFO-25 and it kicks ass. I also listen in the 80-90 Db range.
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HeyWaj10
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Re: Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options?
Reply #9 - 09/14/18 at 13:31:00
 
Hey Dave and Acetone,

Thank you for the input. Zu Audio is on my short list of speakers to give a try, though my main concern for their line is the reviews mentioning shouty response from the tweeters. I also do plan on incorporating appropriate treatments, depending on what the speakers that I end up with call for.

I'm very new to actual tube amps (not hybrids), so adjusting to the concept that only around 2 watts is all that's needed for sufficient SPL levels will take some getting used to. My only hesitation is the demanding power draws and < 4 ohm dips in prog rock/metal music that can be frequent and relentless in certain passages.

As for my current list of speakers I'd like to audition, here's what I have so far:
  • Omega Super 3 HOXRS or Super 8 XRS
  • Spatial M4 or M3
  • Decware Model ERRx
  • Zu Audio Soul or Omen Mk. II
  • Ohm Walsh 1000
  • Philharmonic Audio BMR Philharmonitor - genuinely curious of this one

The amp options on my list include:
  • Decware - model dependent on speakers
  • First Watt - model dependent
  • Yamaha A-S2100
  • Belles Aria Integrated

Thoughts and other suggestions certainly welcome.

Scott
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armstdav
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Re: Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options?
Reply #10 - 09/14/18 at 17:08:33
 
Scott,

I've been running Zu Druid Mk IV/08s for a number of years now. I started with an Almarro 205, moved to a First Watt F4, then to an Audiosector Patek, followed by a Decware SE34i.2+, and most recently Atma-sphere M60s.

The Zu sensitivity spec is a bit misleading; that 10" full-ranger needs some power to really get it moving. The Almarro, First Watt, and Decware all sounded great at low volumes, but ran out of steam when cranked. The Decware came closest, probably because the power supply for the EL34 was more robust than the Almarro's for the EL84. The Patek at 50W/ch sounded great and played loud enough to shake the walls, but it's still a sand amp, right? The Atma-spheres, so far, are the best of the lot by a fair margin. They're good enough to expose the flaws in the rest of my system, which I'm working on. Next will be the MK.IV-13 Stage-1 upgrade kit for the Druids, which should bring them pretty close to the Souls you're considering and probably a little better than the Omens. I'm not ready to spend $2k on the Radian tweeters.

All that said, if you're considering Decware to do prog, I'm not sure the Rachael will get you there. You might want to consider at least the Torii Jr.

David
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lazb
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Re: Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options?
Reply #11 - 09/14/18 at 19:50:26
 
Scott, since you say Decest this year is not an option, I would suggest you give a shout to Zygi, who lives in your area, and is "Turning Point Audio" the maker of the Decware speakers. I am sure he has examples of some of the speakes and also some of the amps. I KNOW he has a pair of the new and, as yet unannounced, DNA2 speakers which I am thinking may be the ones you are looking for. Perhaps "Zygi"(Bob Ziegler) would be up for a listen at his place? Just a thought. You absolutely do not want to miss the opportunity to ride on the Decware Band Wagon!
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hdrider
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Re: Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options?
Reply #12 - 09/15/18 at 15:18:53
 
Scott- Welcome to the forum, you seem to have your work cut out for you. I have been listen to progressive rock since I saw Yes open for Black Sabbath on their first tour in the US. I have played music (bass and Moog pedals) for a dam long time and still do. We have Rachel driving Omega XRS7mkII and Deep 8 sub and this system does any PT or Steve Wilson really dam well. Plenty of tone, balanced, you can hear everything in a good recording. Gavin's cymbal work is amazing. I prefer vinyl but have tons of music on cd and it gets down to the recording, as you said. Keep us posted on your quest and happy listening, Chris.
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RF
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Re: Prog Rock/Metal Listeners - best options?
Reply #13 - 09/15/18 at 17:52:20
 
Hi Scott,

If you are thinking about souls I would highly recommend soul Supremes + torii IV... I have this combo ands it’s fantastic. If you really want to add a punch I would suggest adding the ZU sub “undertone”.

With torii IV you will not run out of juice when listening loud.


Thanks,
RF
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