I thought I would start a general discussion thread about the sound and "feel" of a system that now has 25th Anniversary components installed, whether the SE84UFO-25, the SE84UFO3-25 Monoblocks, the CSP3-25, or soon to be experienced ZMA-25 amps. Or combinations of the amps and the preamp. As the SE84UFO25 ship and with some of those and Monoblocks and preamps already out in the field there's already quite a bit to discuss.

I have the SE84UFO3-25 amplifiers in my system and then added the CSP3-25 to the system. The amplifiers transformed the sound of my system bringing me the speed and dynamics I loved when using the Taboo Mk IV as a speaker amp in my system but also featured the body and richness that the Torii Mk III imparted to the sound when it was my amplifier of choice. And on top of that is mixed in the wonderful "wholesome" sound that the single-ended topology brings to the plate. In the context of my audio journey this could almost be called a "miracle amp" as it brings together all the characteristics I've wanted and enjoyed in amplifiers into one pair of amps. Where before three amplifiers would encompass all these qualities but not one, now there is a pair that give me all that I wanted before.

On top of that I now get from the "small" SV83 tube type all the qualities that I admire in that tube type AND all the other qualities I sought in the EL34/KT66/6V6/6CA7 etc. type. I thought I would miss and yearn for aspects of the bigger tubes. . . but I don't. I just don't. Which surprised me at first, but with the passage of a few months. . . I still just don't.

When the CSP3-25 was added to the system I got more of the same "goodies" of tone and dynamics and even though I have a fantastic preamp in the ZTPRE still in the system, the CSP3-25 brings me a further layer of gain control that allows me to get all I need power-wise from the system for my speakers, giving me just a bit more headroom ensuring I don't run into distortion in the normal range of my audio and video usage. I had considered a pair of higher efficiency speakers but with the omni-directional/directional magic of the HR-1s I realize I don't need new speakers now, which is a relief as I love these speakers. (And as a cherry on top the headphone playback of the CSP3-25 rivals that of the Taboo Mk IV while also using the ZROCK2, and only missing the "Lucid" mode that I do enjoy playing with, but can now do so in a second system with the Taboo Mk IV as the amplifier).

I'm now enjoying the best sound I've ever had, and I can "skin the cat" many ways with different rectifier, regulation, input, driver and output tube combinations, like combining different ingredients to make a distinctive curry. Yes, I spent money this year that I possibly shouldn't have, but I am so glad I did, the enjoyment received is worth it now and will pay further dividends over the years to come.

On top of that my understanding of audio is growing as a by-product of Steve's search and discovery of audio playback. In adjusting and tube-rolling, mode-selecting and cabling and isolation changes and listening I begin to learn more and more about the system and the means to reap the benefits from it. I'm more engaged with the material I play than ever before as a consequence.

I know I for one would love to hear the impressions and experiences and thoughts about the 25th Anniversary experience from others. . . so share 'em if you got 'em.

Thanks Scott.

Thanks for sharing Stefan. Yes, the perception of power (and usable power) of this amplifier design has to be experienced to be believed! Power, and with a coherence top to bottom that I haven't heard before to this extent as well. As well as heirloom quality build. Phenomenal amplifiers and preamplifiers.

John, that's a very interesting and precise synopsis of the SE84UFO-25 in your system. I too have had friends and family listen and watch with my system and I didn't ask for feedback, but they were totally involved with the music or show they were hearing or watching and hearing and that told me a lot about the seductive nature of the "very correct" sound. With the ZROCK2 I can dial in the frequency balance and forget about the hardware and just listen . . . . That's perhaps the biggest "invisible" benefit of the amps.

I haven't felt the need for a subwoofer in my system. (The HR-1 are rated down to 32 so that may be why) . . . But I do understand the desire to "have it all!"

We each have our own unique problems and perceptions. It seems to me that, other than not being able to address the acoustics in my listening space, the SE84UFO25, with the ZROCK2 and the DNA2 speakers ALL of my previous issues with a multitude of years, iterations and dollars spent on HI-FI(music) systems have been solved in a beautiful and most enjoyable way! Simple praises to the Master seem quite inadequate.

Quote:


Let us know what you find. I wish Decware and company offered a definitive solution to this problem short of the Imperials. Maybe I am not connecting the dots.

Juan -- a 20 dollar DAC? The CSP3-25 really does improve sources!

I’ve talked to Steve and Louis.  Louis feels that for the sub to be as fast as the S3HOXRS it needs to be powered, at least with the drivers that he works with.  

I do not want to introduce a powered sub. If a powered sub is the only solution at this time, I will leave things as they are because I am not wanting for any more bass head room.  Interestingly, I have had a number of speakers that were 45HZ+.  Yet none of the previous systems were able to give the bass density, headroom and articulation that I am getting now and that’s from this d**n 4” drivers!!  What I want to try to achieve is to be able to get the base extension that allows one to hear the low organ notes or the full range of a piano.  In fact that is what started this.  I was listening to Cyrus Plays Elvis and I was able to hear some of that lower extension of the piano that prior to the UF025  I could not, at least not in the dynamic manner that it was now evident.  My wife said “I never heard THAT before”. This is the type of bass extension that sort of “rolls out” and fills the space of the venue and is present in my space.  

So, I’ve been spoiled by the UFO25.  When is enough, enough when more could be so much ‘sweater’ now that I know what is achievable?  It’s not that I want to enhance what is now there in any way, in fact I don’t want to spoil it.  The UFO25 is like a drug, addictive, but not hazordous to your health, just your pocket book depending on how far you want to take it.  ;)

This is going to take some time.

Thanks Ellsworth, I have spoken with Louis.  He’s about to release a 10” sub also.  All of Louis’s subs are powered.  I do think that the Omega subs would integrate but I’m not so sure that I would end up with what I want which is low octave extension only.  Very few instruments go below 40HZ, Organ, Piano and Harp are three that come to mind.

Steve’s post regarding his hooking up the UFO25 to the Imperials and the results that he achieved is what got me intrigued and started on this path.  The Imperials won’t fit in my space so I am trying to find a suitable alternative.

Mating to the S3HOXRS makes this even harder as they are so fast and at 45HZ, with the UFO25 and the ZR2 are entering the “realm” of low octiave experience, just enough to tease (you have no idea how many times these speakers have P*&sed me off with the teasing  >:().  The S3HOXRS with the Zen, especially with the UFO25 and ZR2 are an enigma.  There is no way that this combination should be able to do what it is doing if one was to approach this with ‘conventional’ thinking.  But they are!  

So this is going to take some time just for me to make sure that I don’t mess up what I have.  Appreciate the input.

It's great that you've done some tube-rolling and found a new set to enjoy. I still prefer the SV83 and have built around that, though I know I could work with the stock red-tipped and build an interesting set around those as well. But I have about 20 pair of the SV83 so I might as well use those up first!

And I've settled on Amperex as the tube brand and 7308s in the two 25th Anniversary components and 6DJ8s in the ZTPRE and a 12AU7 in the ZROCK2. The family sound is a "real" thing and with the treble cut circuit in the Monoblocks and the ZROCK2 and all the gain riding possibilities in the system I'm getting sound that I just want to keep and "forget about" changing as I revel in the wonderful fields of sound this system lets me hike into. Really really happy with the "25th Anniversary" experience.

Detail is an aspect that I can struggle with not necessarily with my system but with the material I listen to. I have tens of thousands of discs now and I don't buy them for audio quality but for the music. Many sound fantastic. Some sound pretty mediocre. If I build my system around mining the most detail, the latter sound pretty bad, worse than they can if I don't highlight all the detail possible. I also don't and can't have a "treated room" and so other adjustments become my focus. The SV83 is the output tube that works best, there's a touch of forgiving warmth there that the military version doesn't have, and the extra smidgeon of clarity in the military version can be just a bit too much. The 6N11 tube type is too much for me, and I can build a system around the 6N5P type or the Amperex 7308 and similar type. The Amperex have perhaps the best "signature" for my needs allowing the mediocre recordings to be more of what they can be, and still deliver the best possible balance of detail and frequency character. But again everything is a balancing act, with speaker choices, cabling choices, isolation treatments and power treatment all influencing factors.

These 25th Anniversary components will let you hear and feel all that goes before them, in a way that I have never experienced with another amp. You mention the emotional impact--I can see my twenty year plus journey with Decware as an increase in this emotional content as I explored the line over the years. I got into audio seriously as a response to ceasing playing music with others, and wanted to connect with the emotional response I had found while playing music with others. Step by step I'm getting there and I jumped to higher steps with these new components. Rather than detail I find these components greatest revelation to be an empowering cohesiveness that just adds solidity and "correctness" to the sound, the full realization of the "single-ended" sonic nature.

I think that the more that can experience this the better, and I predict that these will strengthen Decware's economic standing. At least that's my hope, and why I have always been a vocal supporter of Decware on the web.

Hey, when I saw how my grandfather's obsession with perfection made him a very unhappy man throughout most of his life (and a mean control freak) I backed away from those qualities in myself, and allowed a bit of chaos to loosen my own grip. But if you are not unhappy the quest for perfection sure can have great results! For a certain portion of my working life I was part of a team that really tried to implement "Total Quality Management." That's an interesting business process and I think in some ways I've been implementing that in my audio pursuits.

The curse of these Decware components we all have in common is that we can hear so much! The good. . . with the bad. And we get drawn into the process of constant evaluation and improvement. . . and it's an ongoing and enveloping process. I keep trying to rest on my laurels. . . and enjoy what I have. These 25th Anniversary products are in some ways making this easier as they sound so damned GREAT!

There is no such thing as perfection!
I work in the "perfection" business. As much as we try to make things perfect, it seems that the only thing that ever happens is that we come up with a better method of measuring our output. They seem to always keep adding more zeros after the decimal point.
After a while you make the realization that all you have to do is make your product or process "good enough".
In this hobby we try to make our copies of performances sound as if they were live, but we haven't yet achieved this level. What we have at this point is something that sounds good enough, but not close to the real thing.
If you were walking down the street and heard a song playing on a piano from inside of a house vs. the very same thing being played from a very good stereo I'm pretty sure that you would immediately know which one was the real thing.
But it sure is fun chasing the dragon isn't it?
 

What is perfection?

Some think in the terms of absolute perfection and not relative or perfection within boundaries.  If you are God then perfection is in terms of absolute.  If you are human then it’s in terms of relative or within boundaries.  The things that we can change not the things that we can’t.

Extreme’s are not good.  One extreme leads to constant disatisfaction the other extreme leads to the acceptance of the lowest common denominator and limits our own potential.  Balance is needed.  Accepting limits is necessary.  

In the case corporations perfection often means perfect greed measured by 0’s at the end of a figure. I worked in that environment and had to leave because the measure became the goal often to their own detriment.  I could not grow personally in that environment.

A table is not perfect I the absolute sense, but it is perfect for what it is designed to do.  So how does all the above apply with respect to what I am trying to achieve with my system or is it all simply academic theory?

Take the piano as reproduced by my system.  Is it perfect - NO.  Can I work to achieve a result that is indistinguishable from the real thing - NO.  But what I am getting now has enough of the key elements that give the illusion of the real thing except for the lower octave.  I know that pursuing the lower octave within limits is achievable.  It’ll take effort and it will not be easy but if achieved even if not perfect in the absolute sense, wow what an end result that would be.  For some what I have is more than good enough and actually it is for me.  But what if???  Those are the words that cause me to try to achieve the next possibility.  If I do not succeed no big deal.  At least I tried and learned.  I do not look at the end result or the figures as success or failure.  To me it’s the journey that counts.

The Monoblocks and the CSP3-25 have to be fully broken in and on the long sweet process of "seasoning" now. I'm enjoying sound that I just have never had before and I feel so fortunate to have this wonderful combination of components to relax into by listening. . . .

I've made one significant change this week: I replaced the Sophia Electric Aqua 274B in the CSP3-25 with an Arcturus globe Type 80 rectifier. (The Sophia Electric Aqua 274Bs in the Monoblocks remain in place). The Arcturus is imparting a further dab of richness to the sound. The Sophia Electric is a wonderful sound too, but for Redbook (the majority of my listening) there's just a bit more of an ease to the sound with the Arcturus. This is the only globe Type 80 that I have but I'll soon have at least one other to play with, so we'll see what a different brand brings to the plate.

Tube-rolling is  . . . welcomed by these components as they show the innate nature of a tube and most sound great. It's hard to choose and "stay put" with a complement, but it's also fun to get a new window into the musical view by rolling.

Edit to add: I also changed out a '44 pair of RCA OD3 regulation tubes for a pair of '40 RCA OD3. Subtle shift but so far a positive one sonically, and this pair is the closest matched as far as light and color when powered on of any pair of regulation tubes I've had in the Monoblocks. I know that doesn't mean anything much but it's a nice visual touch.

More SE84UFO25s should be hitting their owners soon (and I bet their arrival and implementation into systems will feel like a real hit!) Please share impressions if you have them!

After a week of tube-rolling. . . I'm back where I started: Amperex input tubes in both amps and preamps, Western Electric bottle-shaped OD3s, and Sophia Electric Aqua 274B rectifiers. I did receive a pair of Cunningham Type 80 Globe rectifiers and ran them a few days in the SE84UFO3-25 Monoblocks. I like them, a lot, but although they had a smooth warmth I missed the tight dynamics and clarity of the Sophia Electrics. A Sophia Electric was interchanged with an RCA Type 80 globe as the CSP3-25 preamp and that was nice with either pair of rectifiers in the amp but again the Sophia Electric was the best choice, all three rectifiers in place just gave the sound an energy and presence that I have decided works best for me. That surprised me because I thought I would prefer the Type 80 sound. . .and as much as I like it with some material I don't prefer it overall. The Type 80 globes all sound nice in my second system though, so there's that, and I can always put them in the main system as a "different" sound or for well-recorded classical music where they eo have a great synergy.

Every day I spend as much time as I can with the system. . . whether driving speakers or headphones this is a wonderful system, giving me sound quality I only dreamed of having a few decades ago!

Wow! These OD3W tubes are really nice, they impart a slightly warm smoothness that other OD3 I have don't and that I didn't miss til there it is. They fit the other tubes in my complement so well!

This pair works so well that today I found someone selling a full sleeve of five at about 8 dollars each and bought a sleeve. . . I want to be sure to have these for the years to come!

I really am enjoying the system Ace. I am listening to the amps today after a three day weekend with headphones (great headphone sound from the CSP3-25 and the Sennheiser HD-800S but still. . .) I did a bit of isolation component re-arranging (went from four VooDoo Cable Iso-Pods to three under all but my PS Audio P10) and used the resulting six Iso-Pods in place of Aurios under my DVR and UDP-205, and changed some Herbie's Audio Lab "Ultrasonic Fat Dots" to Herbie's 1/2" ebony domes to lift the front of my speakers up a bit. Another layer of clarity and dynamics as a result. I've been tuning around the Raytheon OD3W tubes I have been using lately, I really like the effect they have on the system. I have six pair now, five more on the way, and I'm mailing a pair to Juan as he turned me on to the OD3 tube and I think he will like these. . . .

The Decware 25th Anniversary Modified Experience. . . I'm glad I'm experiencing it!

Glad they got there. Hope you enjoy them.

You're welcome. I generally prefer "bottle-shaped" regulator tubes and rectifier tubes. But these "potato-masher" regulator tubes have a special sound that works well with the other tubes in the complement and can be a good foundation for the amps in my system. I now have five pair of the same date codes, I think I'm good for a while! Mark58 seems to have influenced my hoarding. . .  ;)

Today I am listening to the system and just reveling in the wonderful sound. I ask myself how can this get better. . . and I know it can with the 25th Anniversary Mods of the ZROCK2 and possibly with the ZLC.

I really am eager to hear what the mods will bring to the ZROCK2 and know I have a long wait. I'll hear from others who have their ZROCK2s in for modification instead of having a new one built as I am. I think that will be the icing on the cake for the 25th Anniversary Modified Experience!

As my Monoblocks and CSP3-25 have seasoned and really come into their own I've learned how many amplifiers I have simply by "riding the gain" between the ZBIT, CSP3-25 and the Monoblocks. (I leave my DAC preamp at 100 percent). I can have a rich and dreamy classic tube amp sound signature so to speak, a fast and dynamic and open one, and a world of shades in between. Add tube rolling into this and you have a universe of different potential sounds with the same source and speakers. The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience is not for the faint of hearts! But rewards are truly satisfying.

stone_of_tone wrote on 12/17/18 at 15:08:13:

Larry, this really should be the next Decware t-shirt, right?

Today I spent a few hours with fresh ears on my system and I went through two different rectifier types and one regulation tube type from my "everyday complement" and came back to what I am using every day.

But in the process I found four or five different "amplifiers" especially if you transition between A and B EQ curves in the ZROCK2. Other less flexible amplifiers only give you a limited choice in "signature." The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience is one of exploring these different worlds of sound with different tubes, wires, power settings, toggle switch settings, isolation and damping. . . .

There were times in my life when I wanted a system that was rock steady and had the right combination of sonic elements to let me just sit back and listen through my collection. There were times when I almost achieved that goal as well. But the deeper into the Decware world, and especially after you pass through the 25th Anniversary initiation and achieve enlightenment, you find you can and do have the best of choices: you can find and reach the plateau you wish, and yet you know there's a different terrain you could be exploring, and you can head off on another journey with tube-rolling, toggle switching. . . . One gets to have the routine the musical discipline demands, and yet are able to escape the complacency when the audio wanderlust hits you.

We Decware owners already bond with our components, 25th Anniversary Modified Experiencers may find obsession with the entire system just around the corner. I think these machines are perfect for those among us who are so deep into this "hobby"--they give us a solid foundation  to build our routine around, and yet they are always offering us tantalizing glimpses that tempt us and keep us from complacency.

(The above is written somewhat tongue in cheekily . . . .)

And there are three or four of you now who are ZMA 25th Anniversary Modified Experiencers now. Please weigh in with your experiences! Thanks!

Awesome! Me too, and then that complacency comes in, but I get to take another tour and often end up back where I was.

I'm facing a new journey ahead as well. I've somehow managed to get permission to move my main system upstairs to be an audio only system, and install a second system downstairs that will be more video-centric. I'd like the system downstairs to be ZTPRE and Torii Mk III centered, but the cabinet my wife insists on won't house them. So it's going to be CSP2+ and Taboo Mk IV centered. Lots of work and fun ahead.

Lon...That would make a cool T-Shirt!

Will do, about getting to my ZMA 25th experience/in some more time... .

For the ZMA, Jeff intrigued me this past February with his musing's of offering the ZMA a little more speed. With Steve's discoveries and applying to the ZMA, I'm very pleased/speed & micro serving the macro music! My ZMA is seasoning in nicely.... .

I always knew it was not my Adagio's. I had in Tekton's and owned the DM947 Monoliths (all at the same time/rotating and listening with two other pair as well, mind you). They too, could be; not what I knew from my SE84CS delivering the music. For Steve to achieve the ZMA doing (UFO-25th SE) CS with power...is pretty damn remarkable.

Back to my Speaker's/Acoustic Zen Adagio's. The Tekton's & DM947's could not even come close to what my Adagio's achieve. The choice to have them cross cut at 4500Hz/single capped, instead of the 2500 tested and 3000 they were at....proved to be remarkable. These are fast woofer's and tweeter's.
Now! ...providing the true identity of my ZMA (because of the Mod's) & Steve's great Redbook source/ZDSD!




Mr. Lee's interview:
Tell me about your woofers. How does an underhung driver differ from a well-hung driver?


Underhung means that it has a very short voice coil in a large magnetic field gap. The drivers are top grade and so are the magnets. The voice coils are very narrow and always move in a linear manner within a magnetic field regardless of excursion. Additionally, a traditional long voice coil moving in a short magnetic gap presents a high variable impedance to the amplifier.


Can you break it down in some more detail?


With a short voice coil in a long magnetic gap, as the music signal flows through the voice coil, the coil and the cone moving together produce the sound wave. A long magnetic gap structure offers a much wider linear magnetic flux density, alternately pushing and pulling the short voice coil back and forth. Since the magnetic force on the coil is constant and completely symmetrical with the motion of the piston assembly, the result is a sound wave with extremely low distortion and coloration, allowing it to respond much faster to a transient signal and to stop faster after the drive signal has ceased.


Compare that with the large signal behavior of high-excursion overhung transducers. Because the coil extends beyond the control of the magnetic flux field, it causes very high harmonic and transient distortion that can reach 5 - 20% whereas the underhung driver maxes out at 1%. Because of the very complex magnetic structure and complications involved in voice coil placement and fabrication, the underhung voice coil is difficult and expensive to fabricate.


What are the speaker cones made of?


They use a ceramic-impregnated fabric in the center with ceramic coating on either side to form a sandwich. These drivers are custom built for Acoustic Zen to my specifications. The ceramic coating makes for a strong, dense, rigid surface area that will not break up nor produce a lot of ringing. The cone is very stiff and light and as a result, very fast. It responds immediately to a signal and returns to its original position very quickly. This minimizes frequency overhang, colorations and distortions.


Why a Neodymium magnet?


An underhung driver's voice coil requires an extremely strong magnetic field. If you are using traditional magnets, the size and weight of the motor would be excessive. Neodymium allows us to maximize magnetic coverage while controlling weight and size.


Why did you choose a ribbon tweeter and how does your circular design differ from other approaches?


I don't want to get too technical here. My circular ribbon tweeter design, unlike a traditional dome or cone tweeter, presents a purely resistive impedance that's completely linear in the audio range. It also has an essentially linear phase response, which contributes to an immediate and precise response to any transients in a complicated music signal. This dramatically reduces distortion and coloration.


I am using the thinnest diaphragm possible, a 0.01 millimeter Kapton diaphragm. That's just about weightless, with a 95% covered aluminum circle of conductors across the entire vibrating area positioned between super strong Neodymium magnets. Some people use metal ribbons which can result in very harsh HF response. Kapton is not only extremely light, it is also heat resistant, hence the thermal behavior of the voice coil will not translate into audible distortions. My tweeter's larger circular membrane not only provides much higher power handling and a wider frequency response, it also eliminates the offsets between horizontal and vertical dispersion that are common with narrow ribbons.

Finally got my modified zbit and 25th zrock2, dressed like my 25th amp, look and sound fantastic  :)

No posted list for modifications or repairs. They are normally completed in two weeks and you'll receive a call and/or email from Sarah when shipped.

HK

Man. . . the 25th Anniversary Modified Experience. . . it keeps on being an experience.

New firmware for my transport and DAC have led to experimentation, and falling in love with certain tube types has also encouraged experimenting with those.

I'm back to Sophia Electric Aqua 274B rectifiers in both of the Monoblocks and in the CSP3-25. There's just something so right about the blend of sound and dynamics from these and an open midrange that is uniquely its own. And I have been so enamored with the Raytheon OD3W that I have that I ordered a few pairs of Chatham OD3W. I have a pair in now and these are a different presentation, much clearer and crisper than the Raytheon but so far only a few hours in. . . .

These amps and preamp show me so much of what is in the source material and every other component or accessory in the system. What an experience!

I've put the ZTPRE back in and gosh I find it hard to choose between it and the CSP3-25 in my main system as the preamp. They each make the system shine and each brings a different flavor that I love. But the ZTPRE allows me to run balanced for three sources, and has remote control. . . . And I don't have to play with rectifiers, the solid state one Steve chose is on the money. So it may be the one that stays. I lose the headphone playback. . . BUT I have the Taboo Mk IV for that, which may even be a better headphone amp. My ZBIT has two single-ended outputs so that allows me to use it to feed both the ZROCK2 (feeding the amps) and the Taboo Mk IV.

I both do and don't miss the 25th Anniversary Modified Experience that the CSP3-25 brings to the system. That makes the CSP3-25 just a hair more holographic and detailed than the ZTPRE. But the ZTPRE is so well-mannered and perfectly "right" that its refined character just makes for amazing listening that I miss when it's not there.

The great thing for me is that I'll soon be able to use two systems: one downstairs that will be "new" and the main system which is going to have a dedicated loft area upstairs. The "new" system I think will have the Taboo Mk IV, a ZROCK2 (when my new one arrives), the CSP3-25 and my first pair of HR-1s fed by my Oppo UDP-205 and a DVR. Should be a great system on its own. (I may send my Taboo Mk III in for the 25th Anniversary Modifications and use it as my headphone amp in the main system; I have so much stuff, but at least with a full second system I get to use it!)

I have over twenty years of waiting for Decware gear that I have ordered. . . and you'd think I was good at it by now. . . . Maybe I'm a little better at it I guess, but there's room for improvement! Waiting for the new fully modded ZROCK2 and the ZLC is hard. I want them now! But hey, good things come to those who wait. . . .

You're going to have a great system! ZTPRE and ZROCK2. . . can't help but see a bit improvement with those.

I am pleased with my ZMA Mod's. A couple weeks in I was skeptical. (I actually posted my premature worry and Lon eloquently posted to season longer and he was right and I should have known better). Ye of little faith here.....Steve knocked it out of the park once again.

The last week/10 days.....I am no longer skeptical, to say the least. I put quite the burn seasoning on the Mod's with my ARC Stereo Line Amplifier + tube rolling: 6P's, KT66, 7581A & KT88 output tubes with NOS Platinum Mullard, Ediswan & Tungsram input tubes. A pair of stellar NOS Platinum Telefunken's as my constant inverter pair.

Then, taking my Pre out of the chain and running how I prefer my ZMA served (unadulterated by an Preamp); with my room size and acoustic treatment, I really enjoy getting so close to my tube rolling/voicing. NOW?! I get even closer with more musical transparency, tone signature of the ZMA continues spot on in the imaging that I thought could not be improved but has. Little deeper soundstage too. Micro serving the macro, fully.

Bottom Line: As if a straight wire with gain preamp is under the hood with these mods of power cap bypass, glass resistor's and tempered/maintaining transparency, by the output screen grid resistor's. Speed & Dynamics? Oh yeah, in full bloom now and Stone is very, very happy. So, I did not like Line Stages before this and in my room I can get away without. With the Mod's, I might as well sell my Line Stage. Weight and all I have mentioned is there! Furthermore, realize I use Steve's output stage/ZDSD, that provides gem voltage output direct to my ZMA too.

I look forward to my ZBIT (I need Steve's outboard output stage with left and right channel adjustability (option ordered)/because I'm so pleased with the output stage of my ZDSD). ZLC too coming later. Also, I noticed Steve's friend Dan, up the road from me has an interesting product out! This will be next in my budget for my second System.

Oh yeah, funny you mention the top end sparkle. It took a little more time than I expected....but it has arrived and not hyperbole to say, wow!

My Gold Lion Cryo KT88's are absolutely stunning with my NOS Plat Tungsram 6922's for inputs and NOS Plat Tele's as inverter's.

Yes, road trip by appointment to stop by and have Steve pop them in, the big Nich'es....Sue wants to come back up the River through Galena anyway. I could do it (having Steve send them to me when available)...but I want to maintain my warranty.

Decware is only 6.25 hours away. Instead of incurring the $180 in round trip shipping again.....it will be better spent on an Airbnb or Bed & Breakfast on the River.
+, get to listen to the DNA2's.

Sue, might think it strange, that I wheel the Pelican case into the room for overnight. She will understand, I'm not leaving my 6.5k ZMA in the trunk overnight.  TIP: ....this reminds me, I need to review my homeowner's insurance for replacement cost of both of my Rig's.
Good TIP for all here, to start your New Year. Me? I have 27k+ at replacement cost in Audio......... . I know many of you have more than this. Most would argue: "I'm covered at X amount of k for personal property, without a Rider...but are you really and at replacement cost for ALL your Audio?" I'm not an insurance agent hawking for the industry to extract more money from your wallet....this is just good food for thought and consideration for my fellow Decwarian's; since I'm reviewing my policy next month. Yes, I know, fire or home theft is almost akin to being struck by lightening. However, just food for thought. My insurance (by comparison to two others) will not be getting an extra penny out of me; if not need be.
....For starter's, if you have not done so already....have photo's of all your equipment and as many receipts as you can/find, in your phone and in the Cloud.

Very good dilemma to wrestle with Lon.

Have a Happy New Year!

Having some frigid cold coming in tomorrow here.....will be a great day to stay warm with a lot of Music.

"Stefan,those look great! Is the ZBIT just modified with the wood panels? How does the sound of the ZROCK2 with mods compare to how it sounded before?"

Hi Lon,
besides the wood side panels the ZBIT has a switch and 2 additional inputs, so I have my DAC on there via XLR and then my record player and surround sound amp via the 2 RCAs. All the RCAs are the upgraded ones from the 25th amp. This is one of the amazing things that I love about Decware, you can talk to the owner about special one-off things and you get them for a very reasonable price.
The ZROCK25th makes it sound so much "fuller", the bass goes down more and makes the whole "2.5 Watt" experience even more mind blowing, given that my Tannoy speakers are not super high efficient.
Very happy with the setup and sound now, and that before I have even started any tube rolling  ;D
The only thing I need to figure out is that the ZROCK has a slight hum coming from the box, when you squeeze a bit the top of the box it goes away, need to ask if anyone else had that in the ZROCK forum.

I swear that week by week the sound improves, due to both the seasoning of the equipment and my learning the best tubes to use and the best gain settings in the system. I'm so SOLD on the 25th Anniversary Modified Experience!

Reinstalling the ZTPRE has been really good for my system. It's nice to have the Z Amigos back in play, and its anchoring consistency truly gives the system a coherent balance that I don't want to be without.

Next month sometime the cabinet Lucy ordered should arrive and I'll be able to set up a new system, and that too should be a 25th Anniversary Mod one as I intend to use the CSP3 with 25th Anniversary Mods, and I intend to send my Taboo Mk IV back to the Mothership for upgrading with the 25th Anniversary Mods. And I hope to have a ZROCK2 in this system too, though that may not happen at first--there are about 40 orders ahead of my new ZROCK2 on the build list!

Yes, blessed! It is extremely difficult to turn the system off even when it is past time to go to bed.  :-/

 Normally I’d be entering a guilty plea here also, but my bedtime has gotten a little more reasonable while waiting on 25th Mods to the MKIV and my ZTPRE to hit the bench.
I considering the break “resting up” because when that stuff is into my system I plan on either turning my clocks around or taping over them while everything gets settled in...let’s see 24x7 for a couple weeks should give me a jump on things.

Those "Oh" moments keep on coming. You're right, we're blessed.

My next leap will be when the 25th Modded ZROCK2 arrives! And I want to see what the ZLC will bring, though I am unsure it will unsettle or upstage my P10.

It's the weekend and I don't get to listen much, and a 3 day weekend at that. Come on Tuesday!

Oh my, my, my.....time my ARC Stereo Line Amplifier was injected. Tung n' Groove.

Litmus Test:  The Southern and Harmony Musical Companion.

PASSED!!!!

Three new 25th Anniversary Modified Experience related things.

One: the Taboo Mk IV is in the house with the Mods and it is as transformed as I thought it would be. Great sounding amp taken to the next level! I had about 20 hours on it and took it out to compare to the 25th Anniversary Monoblocks more directly with some hours on the Taboo. It's very similar in nature, being a bit more powerful and dynamic, and a bit less refined.

Two: While they were out I popped the tops of the Monoblocks and rolled out the Raytheon NOS OC2 voltage regulator tubes underneath with Tesla NOS 11TA31 tubes, an OA2 type. I LOVED these in my Toriis and I love them in the Monoblocks, they just contribute to the exceptional openness that these amps give with the other tubes in my complement, and I'm so glad to have them in there. I have another pair stored away and just ordered four more. I don't want to be without these! That highlighted one advantage the Monoblocks have to the Taboo: the voltage regulation tubes. My PS Audio P10 really improves the sound of both of these components, but the voltage regulation tubes allows me to tailor the sounds about another 15 percent or so, a surprisingly useful factor and one that I really enjoy playing about with. I'll put the Taboo back in soon to get some more hours on it before it serves as the heartbeat of the new system I'll soon be setting up.

Three: I sent my remaining CSP2+ back to Decware today for the beeswax 25th Anniversary Mods. These mods are the REAL DEAL. I intend to use it wit the Taboo Mk IV in the upcoming system. . . . I was going to put my CSP3-25 in that system with the Taboo, but I just don't want to be without it in my main system as both a preamp and a headphone amp. Having both the ZTPRE and the CSP3-25 in my main system is an unexpected joy and both in use are just a tiny bit better than either in use by themselves, and I just won't deny myself that last bit of great sound. I think in time I'll send my Taboo Mk III in for the mods as well, the mods really are worth the effort and dollars.

Thanks for the concise explanation Steve. It truly is a blessing to have both these preamps working in one system. And these mods are excellent. I have them in the Taboo Mk IV now, have a ZROCK2 with the mods on order, and Monday sent my CSP2+ in for modification. In time I'll send my Taboo Mk III in as well. The wonderful improvements are a big benefit to any system.

It's OK Scott, keep rattling... ; )

BTW,  Interesting tidbit about your amp and the art of trouble-shooting mysterious problems:

I got your TORII MK4 that I just did anniversary mods on back with the dead channel, and had two extreme mind-melting hours trying to figure out the impossible...  

After doing the 25th Anniversary Mods  and testing the amp all the way through, which is my preferred methodology, I got down to the final mod, the glass resistors.  So simple, just remove existing resistor and replace with new one, do it 6 times.  I finished one channel and tested it, and then finished the other channel and "thought I tested it" but actually didn't.  So based on the certainly aka assumption that I had tested that final resistor, I was unable to find why the hell the amplifier did not work on one channel.  It worked, but the output was so low it was almost undetectable.  Every part in the amplifier tested perfect, all resistors, all capacitors, and on the scope, the input stage all the way up to the output tubes was working perfectly, but the output tubes were not passing the signal on to the output transformer... yet, the tubes were clearly working, in fact they were drawing 50% more power than they should have, which is also btw impossible.  Output transformer tests perfect, yet just to be sure that what tests perfect actually is perfect, a new one is swapped in and no change...    Based on everything I tested, and everything I think I know, what is happening is completely impossible, and really starting to piss me off...

Then I remembered, troubleshooting anything, no matter how complicated, is not you pitted against the faltering item, but rather you pitted against your own mind.  It is nothing else but that.  The actual problem with anything is always something simple, or if Father Murphy wants to really punish you it will be three very simple things all at once.  My mind was operating under a false pretense which was that I personally tested and witnessed both channels working perfectly after doing the all of the Anniversary mods on this amp.  

So now that you have all the pieces to this puzzle, can you figure out what was wrong with the amp?  How can a channel that is not oscillating and has no output yet is drawing 50% more power causing 31 volts to disappear not working properly when all the parts are there, and test perfectly?

One of the parts was soldered to the wrong place.  Pin 6 instead of pin 5.  Yes, it's a good one... one of Father Murphy's favorites... (He is such an asshole I can't even believe it.  Did you know Father Murphy has a hidden camera to record his pranks and they play this shit back in the heavens like the show that used to be called "Candid Camera" ?  Well it's true.  Then they make you watch it during a life review after you die, just to have another good laugh!

Anyway, as far as I know it's a first for me, a sign of getting older I guess, nevertheless I did what I could to make it right, which was to fix it the day it came in, and cover the shipping both ways since it was my mistake ; )

BTW, Your very pretty ZTPRE came out great, as they all do, but I took an extra day to enjoy yours in the listening room so it has around 55 hours on it and is sure to please : )

-Steve

P.S. When I say "it was a first for me" I do not mean my first mistake!!!  I have repaired mistakes and paid shipping both ways enough times over 20 years to easily pay cash for a nice new home, but as you can see the karma that came from it is worth far more than the money that would have been saved by skirting the responsibility : )

 I'd call it a Great Day when UPS delivers my fully modded Torii MKIV and then I get a email "your ZTPRE has been shipped!" it's going to be an experience... the first time with the modded ZROCK2 and MKIV together.  [smiley=10.gif]

Good Listening,
Scott

Scott,

Wow, sounds like your going to have some great listening in a few days.  Have fun and try to get some sleep 😊.

HK

What size and type of fuses are you using in the CSP3-25 preamp? I believe most companies offer long and short versions, as well as fast and slow blow fuses. 5 amp? Thanks.

HK

Thanks Lon. Slow blow or fast?

HK

Well, my ZROCK2 with all Anniversary mods is on the bench. Happy!

I honestly can’t imagine not having it in my system. I got to bed at least a couple hours before dawn last night. I gave the MKIV & ZROCK2 mods a run for their money...
They won
The first hundred hours or so will come quickly.
Best,
Scott

And my ZLC is also on the bench. And maybe soon they'll work on the CSP2+ I sent in for the Anniversary mods. Expensive, but a lot of good stuff.

Great news Delta! I have a CSP3 that I had built with the Anniversary mods and really love it. The detail element is truly engaging. . . a tapestry of sound is woven around the listener in the system now.

I am looking forward to how the mods transform the CSP2+ that I sent in. . . .

Joey,
You won’t regret the change to the UFO-25 and the ZR-2 with the mods.  Mine was one of the first UFO-25’s, I think the second.  I had the SE84UFO2 and as good as that amp is the UFO-25 is in a different league.

I just hooked up my ZR-2 after both the mods were done and even though I was expecting nothing less than being amazed after experiencing the UFO-25 and the ZR-2 without the mods, I was not ready for the difference the mods made on the ZR-2.

Good choices!

Joey my wife has been putting up with this hobby of mine for 44years.  Now she asks me to play music and won’t let any of our social get togethers go by without insisting on music being played.  The way she describes what she hears and feels you’d think she’s an audiophile and I insist on getting her input.

She too has become a Decware fan.  So you never know....

Cheers

I don't know if anyone here besides Steve would have specific experience. . . but I sent my Taboo Mk IV in for the power supply mods and it came back and the transformed amp sounds very similar to the 25th Anniversary Monoblocks I have that also have the regulation tube mods.

I have a PS Audio P10 power regenerator, so power is pretty well cleaned up and modulated for me, but I would surmise from my experience that the power supply mod would get you a very good way towards the full monty. Being able to roll different regulation tubes is a very nice thing that you will be missing though. That leads to awesome fine tuning.

Just a day away or so of moving my system upstairs and I have stuck my 25th Anniversary Modded Taboo Mk IV in place of the 25th Anniversary Modded SE84UFO3 amps.

WOW. I've about 150 hours on these amps since the mods and about 110 hours on a new Audio Magic Super fuse and the sound is excellent. So so very close to the Monoblocks. A bit more romantic sounding. Love this amp! And the Mods made a big difference in a positive direction.

Sounds all good, Lon! Now that the "big" system is in a less conspicuous space, maybe you can do a bit of sound treatment in the room? L R(Eric) might have advice?! Vicoustic has some reasonably priced treatments too. Paul McGowan recommends the Wavewood panels. Just a thought. Wish I had the option.

Is there ever a point where a stereo can sound too real?

To find out, read about the TORII MK4 with Anniversary Mods that I am just running in:  

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1550883971/0#0

Steve

Quote:


Might just be the best one-liner I've ever read!

Steve

Well, I see I left the 6N5P in the ZTPRE for over a month and a half, and in the Monoblocks over a month. . . . And I really like this combination.

And then I started playing with particular 6N6P (out of six pair I have one pair is both different in construction and decidedly superior in sound, so I was using that pair) and playing around with voltage regulation tubes to get them their best.

Then yesterday I picked a pair of Amperex 7308 out of a box and memories flooded back of wonderful sound so I put Amperex 7308 in the ZTPRE and the Monoblocks. . . and the sound was very close to the 6N6P complement sound but with a tighter focus and a bit more dynamics. After being so used to the wonderful but of looseness that the 6N6P gives I found I was restless. I started rolling voltage regulator tubes and found a particular pair of RCA 0A3 that really helped get me that little bit of ease. A very nice sound. Left that in place most of the day.

Then at the close of the day yesterday I realized that since the ZROCK2 was seasoned I really haven't rolled its tube. . . and my gaze landed on a 6085 I had sitting on the rack. . . and put that in in place of the RCA 5814A black plate I had there. At first of course it needed warming up, but unlike in the original ZROCK2 (not modded) it had a mellowness that I liked. So I let it simmer overnight and this morning I played around with the gain between ZTPRE (lowering) and ZBOX (raising) and BAM, a great dynamic sound with razor sharp imaging and yet a nice relaxed soundstage with ambiance and that touch of ease I had been looking for.

I make no promises I'll keep this complement in place, but it sure is nice sounding at the moment and yet another "amplifier" to find in the 25th Anniversary Experience.

I just want to update everyone on the Anniversary mods available for most of our tube gear...

I have done hundreds of anniversary mods so far and it has come to the point where I am having to train my staff to build them that way from the start because there just aren't enough hours in the day to QC the amps when each one that comes into QC has to be anniversary modded, adding another hour or two to the process.

Don't worry, we'll cope with it just fine, more importantly is that our salesmen, the amplifiers, are now going to be on another level. This will amplify sales in the coming years because it just widens the gap between mass-produced and or high-power audio gear so far that it becomes impossible to ignore or deny.

Life is good when sound is good and sound is good when life is good... it's a resonance.

Steve

I've settled on tube complements in the components of my main system and am vowing to not budge for a spell.

ZTPRE: all Steve tested and matched 6N5P
ZROCK2: an Amperex branded Hewlett Packard 12AU7
CSP3 with 25th Anniversary mods: a pair of supercryo'd 6N1P from cryoset.com (miss them) and as the input a Steve tested 6N5P, Sophia Electric 274B Aqua
SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with 25th Anniversary mods: Tesla 0A2, Amperex 0A3, Amperex 5R4WGB, Steve's tested and matched 6P15-EV, Steve's tested and matched 6N5P

I'm getting fantastic full-bodied dynamic sound. Loving every hour in front of this system.

I don't know about the sag. The reality is that I can have a number of different "charactered" amps with different tube complements. With the Sophias and certain 0B3 rectifiers I can get a very similar sound to these BIG rugged 5R4 and certain 0A3. I think that comparing these two different complements the 5R4 have just a bit more clarity and dynamics, the Sophia a bit more "3 dimensional" feeling. In my current room situation the former is winning out with most of my musical content listening. Since I've added the CSP3 with the Mods to the system using a Sophia there restores a touch of the 3D feeling and presents a really good synergy to the system overall.

I'm really digging the sound and have resisted the urge to roll tubes longer than usual, which is also a good thing.

Yes I am. . . and I have really been enjoying the listening.

One more change: I found I had two more of Steve's 6N5P on hand and these replaced the 2 super-cryo'd 6N1P in my CSP3 with the mods. A slight, very  slight dynamic diminishment, but a deeper dollop of "refinement"--killer sound with these tubes.

I think I'm done though soon it will be time to order a new pair of output tubes from the Maestro.

I would say the biggest difference is the treble response. The Amperex has a tarter, perhaps more precise treble. The 6N5P seem a tad warmer because the treble is a bit softer.

The midrange on the Amperex is also a tad more open, which allows a bit more detail, just a sliver. Depends on the recording how audible this difference is.

Wth the 7308 I find myself gravitating twoards best sounding recordings, because they shine brightly, and not reaching for lesser recordings as often. I'm pretty against this as a practice--with the 6N5P everything else sounds a bit better and I don't consider sound quality so much when I think of playing a disc.

I tend to relax into the music and not think of sonic attributes more with a full complement of 6N5P. A less audiophile experience. Which I count as a good thing.

Well Stated Lon

I understand your comparison.

Thank You
Bob

Whats your guys take on a stereo 25 compared to monoblocks.   Is any sonic bliss lost when the stereo amp is run in mono.
Thanks

Many differences. If you compare the two product pages it should be easy to see. . . .

I was laughing at the I can't wait, will buy used comment.

That should be reposted...
Just about everywhere!
Saved, copied printed.

Best to all this evening,
Scott

Kingrex asked:  "Whats your guys take on a stereo 25 compared to monoblocks.   Is any sonic bliss lost when the stereo amp is run in mono."

If I understand the meaning of your question rightly, there is a misconception here.
When going to monoblocks, a person buys two and uses one for the left channel and one for the right. So the music is still listened to in stereo. The idea is that each channel now has it's own separate amplifier so the two channels can not muddy each other's signal.  The greater clarity is usually said to be heard as an improved certainty of the sound stage.

Brian

Quote:



What I probably said was that single-driver crossoverless speakers have the greatest resolution. That resolution comes from the drivers' speed. The lack of a parasitic crossover is a bonus, and nothing images better than a point source.  For these reasons, a good single-driver crossoverless speaker will allow you to hear how far ahead of the pack a Zen Triode amplifier actually is, whereas other speakers will subtly mask it's beauty.

Getting hung up on power vs. 2 watts... let's talk about performance. The ideal demonstration of performance with a 2 watt Zen Triode Amplifier comes when one is paired with 4 - 15 inch drivers per channel and a pair of 8 inch full-range drivers. This notion that our low power amps can't control large drivers is completely false.

Also, as far as the amplifiers ability to drive complex loads, there isn't much that can outperform one due to it's ability to drive nearly a dead short.  Case in point, it will drive full size Magnapans with stunning bass response when 8 out 10 high power amps fail. The drawback is of course the speakers don't get loud enough to be fully useful with 2 watts. Another example is electrostatic speakers that use an interface. Hardest load for any amplifier you could create... many amps simply fail at it, regardless of power. The Zen Triodes (all Decware amps actually) drive them wonderfully, again in the case of the 2 watts, not enough to play the speakers loud. Then there's more conventional reflex speakers, like the Dalhquist DQ10's which had an impedance dip around 2 ohms, and a massively complex crossover. Zen drives it fine, just won't get loud.  All three of these examples have an efficiency in the low to mid 80's which is why they don't get loud enough with 2 watts.

I'm explaining all this for the casual reader who finds this post on Google, because I absolutely do not want to be lumped into the false narrative that our 2 watt amps need and or work best with a single-driver crossoverless speaker around 100dB efficient when they work with any speaker design from the mid 90's on up, crossover or not, multi-driver or not, etc.,

Now, if you're lucky enough to actually find a single-driver crossoverless loudspeaker that is 100dB efficient and has full bass response, it means you own a Zen Master Series baffle with the Lii Audio F15 driver... and yes, they sound great on the 2 watt amps.  Other than ours, I know of no other offerings that actually reach 100dB with a single driver, and have chest throttling bass with the imaging and highs to go with.

Steve