Hi all,

I'm wondering how close to the full 25th anniversary experience I'll get with just the caps bypass mod. If I send in my Zen for the caps bypass, will it get me close to the 25th, or is most of the magic in the voltage regulation tubes? I'm really attached to my SE84UFO2!

I should be able to know how the UFO2 compares to the 25th in about 5-6 months. I'm sure burn in time will also be a factor to consider. I will definitely keep both as I have three Decware rooms not including HT. I watch very little TV now and most likely, less , once the 25th and ZR2 arrive.

Wow moment today. Wednesday (as a surprise anniversary gift for my wife!) I moved my system from the living-room to the upstairs (one long rectangular loft-like area.) I took me a full work day to tear down both the Samson racks and reinstall them upstairs and set up the "second" system in the living room and didn't really have a chance to listen at all on Wednesday after Lucy came home. (She's very happy she doesn't have to look at my system--she really digs the sound but hates seeing my components).

Thursday was spent with my Dad with Medical appointments and errands and a few meals. A great time, but no great amount of time for listening. I checked and it sounded good, I was relieved, but I knew the digital components needed a bit more time on and didn't draw conclusive judgments.

Today I sat down with the system in the new location and was immediately RELIEVED to hear it sound so good. And it really does. I can even more clearly hear the wonders of the 25th Anniversary mods. I have just the ZTPRE and am using the CSP3-25 in the living-room system, and it's not missed. I can hear even more subtle musical details that increase the real sense of the recorded space and delineate the character of the instruments in well-recorded material. A clarity that is not etched or grainy or "too much." There were two important changes in the setup: I moved back to my Mapleshade Double Helix Plus speaker cables, and I placed the HR-1s on PS Audio PowerBases for isolation purposes. These two changes are certainly making an impact, and overall the system is shining. I am able to get 10 feet from the speakers so I don't feel claustrophobically "near-field" as I have in the past, and the sound has room to bloom. Very relieved, quite happy.

Downstairs I have PS Audio Power Plant Premier, Oppo UDP-205, Sony Bravia TV, DVR, CSP3-25 and Taboo Mk IV with 25th Anniversary mods on a maple coffee table until the credenza that Lucy wants arrives Sunday and then I'll put the system together on that. I'm using my original pair of HR-1s and the second best cabling that I have on hand. The sound is quite good. The adjustable Lucid Mode in the Taboo are helping sculpt the sound. Duelund resistors are still breaking in on the HR-1s and I would love to have a ZROCK2 in the mix, and will when the one that is "Testing" at Decware ships and arrives. I am glad I was able to make my wife happy by moving my system, and not step down in audio quality in my main system. (I hope she's even happier when the credenza is installed, it's a sort of shabby chic aqua painted monstrosity that she thinks is "super cool". . . I think she'll really dig the new situation in the living room).

Nah Joe, I don't have any real space here for room treatment and I don't think I'll get permission if I could. On one side there's not much space, as there is a door to a closet and a door to the bathroom, and on the other wall there's a long narrow window on the top third. The HR-1s have their own sort of room interaction and always save my bacon in any location they are in. . . so I'll be more than okay with the situation I have and will be able to tweak the system by other means into great sound as time goes by.

Gosh three plus months later my main system has been dialed in and tweaked and with the modded ZROCK2 finally settled in I'm getting great sound.

Really I have a multiple of systems because tube-rolling in this system really gives one so many aural options it can be unnerving.

I built the character of the system around Amperex 7308 in the ZTPRE and Tung-Sol OD3W in the voltage regulator spot for the output tubes in the 25 th Anniversary SE84UFO3 Monoblocks. This week I experimented with all sorts of rectifiers in the Monoblocks and kept feeling that the Sophia Electric 274B are head and shoulders above a dozen other possibilities in my stash (making me wonder why I have all those!) and I've started to experiment with other tube complements. I'm leaving the Sophias and the Amperex 7308s as anchors in the Monoblocks as well as the Tesla OA2 variant I have as regulation for the input tubes. I have found a very good sound with the red-tipped sextet of 6N5P that I have from Steve (such neutral and balanced tubes) and a pair of Sylvania OB3 that add a lot of texture to the sound. Compared to the Amperex 7308 in the ZTPRE these 6N5P sound just a bit flat with the OD3W or OD3 voltage regulation tubes, but the OB3 ameliorate that and give the sound a burnished luster that works very well with less than stellar digital.

This 25th Anniversary Experience is an addictive one. One gets immersed in the music, and when one feels the need to tinker or tailor there is so much clarity and such a precise presentation that tube types and brands show themselves vividly making decisions educated and hard to argue with. Here a year later I'm so glad that I jumped onto this fast moving Anniversary train! These components make me feel as if I stole a golden apple from a divine orchard. . . .

"Father Knows Best." That's what I keep thinking today because I had an urge to roll the input tubes on my SE84UFO3-25 Monoblocks and put in a pair of red-tipped 6N5P from Decware.

Boom. Great sound! Days ago I had taken the Amperex 7308 out of the ZTPRE and put in a six pack of these same Decware selected and tested 6N5P, and really enjoyed that change. And now I'm enjoying this one.

Rather than the tightly focused sound of the Amperex, these give a looser, resonant sound to the music. The Amperex hint of warmth is replaced with a softer edge to the notes.

I'm really liking it. I'm leaving them in. I may have to find a chapter of AA to frequent. (Amperex-addicts Anonymous).

These amps are so reactive and interactive that it's like having dozens of amps, many yet to be discovered.

The 25th Anniversary Experience can be like having a transporter that takes you to different dimensions.

You can hear so deeply and intensely into every nook and cranny of the sound that any tube change, cable change, etc. is another dimension to travel and map out.

I have settled into great tube complements (7308 in the ZTPRE, 6DJ8 Bugle Boy, Aqua 274B, stock output tubes, RCA 0B3 in the Monoblocks, RCA black plate 5814A in the ZROCK2). I'm just going to leave them be for now, though I have an Amperex 5814A in the mail I'll try out.

So I have turned my attention to isolation and "tuning" the isolation and removing Herbie's Audio Lab tube dampers and installing a fantastic myrtle wood platform I found about 7 years ago on eBay as a tuning weight atop my ZROCK2 has made a radical change in the sound. I can bypass my treble cut circuit for the first time and can use the "Multiwave" on my P10 which is not often the case.

Getting incredible sound with all the material I was able to spin today. I'm challenging myself to leave things alone and just deeply enjoy this 25th Anniversary Experience!

My next dilemma is whether to send the ZTPRE in for its Anniversary mod. I love the sound of this preamp so much as it is and have built the sound of the system around it and am reticent to change. At the moment my CSP2+ with the Anniversary mods is in for repair and when it returns I can swap in my CSP3 with the Anniversary mods and send the ZTPRE back . . . if I dare. I'm still divided! This experience is so . . . challenging. . . I would like to relax into it for a while. . . but the system invites exploring!

That's absolutely true Steve, I'm really enjoying that "resonance."

Did a lot of component swapping the last few days, and tube-rolling. My Taboo Mk IV with the Anniversary Mods developed an issue and is going back to the mother ship, and in shiftings things around I ended up adding my CSP3 with the Anniversary Mods into the main system so that now the chain is DMP or Rega/GCPH to DSD to ZTPRE to ZBIT to ZROCK2 with Anniversary Mods to CSP3 with Anniversary Mods to SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with Anniversary Mods.

Adding this CSP3 adds just a bit more of the Anniversary Mod "magic." It's not worth the hefty price tag just for that little added magic to be honest, BUT it does also give me the very best headphone sound that I have in the house. . . the CSP3 with the Anniversary Mods is the very best headphone amp I have ever heard. The Taboo Mk III I have and the Taboo Mk IV with the Anniversary Mods are both excellent headphone amps, but . . . the CSP3 with the Anniversary Mods (which Steve wired to bypass the input adjustment with a glass resistor) is just a step above. Holographic head experience!

The main system is now really singing! And I'm down my bedroom listening station til my Taboo Mk IV comes back, which is okay. . . I use that one the least, though I just really dialed it in with new transport and DAC. . . .

Nice, Lon. Maybe I missed it, but I see you're now using Amperex 5R4WGB. How would say they compare to the Sophia's? I've read that the 5R4WGB drop the B+ and have more sag. Has that been your experience?

Thanks for sharing, Lon. Sounds like you're all set for great listening sessions.

Hi Lon

In your Monoblocks, How would you compare the 6n5p tubes with an Amperex (US) 7308 ?

Thanks
Bob

Lon, you are a true gentleman and a gem. A real credit to the land of audiophile nirvana.

I'll add that the ferm "invaluable" is an understatement.

Not sure I can live up t o all that, but thanks B. I've learned so much from Steve, his components, and all the other discoverers of his work and works. It's an evolving sonic universe . . . the first Zen Amps and the latest Anniversary are windows that look into the musical vistas recorded. Of course some windows are wavy old glass and some are triple insulated and fancily-dressed, but man the view!

I’ll soon be getting the 25th Anniversary amp. I’ll probably have to purchase used as I don’t want to wait.
Can someone please tell me how much of a difference there is between the SE84UFO25 and the SE84UFO?

Thank you in advance.

It's ironic but the wait for a used to appear may be longer than the wait for a new one to be built. . . .

As someone who owns all of it... everything from the 2 watt Zen Triode amplifiers, to the 60 watt Zen Torii Mono's which have been heavily anniversary modded...  any time I am listening and find myself running out of power it only takes me about a 5 minutes to go get a bigger amp. With that in mind, I always start out with our 2 watt Zen Triode amps. These are 2 watts that can literally drive almost  a dead short. Very rare. Using the 100 dB Zen Master Series crossoverless full-range single-driver open-baffle loudspeakers in a 17 x 27 x 16 room with carpet and a dead ceiling I have never had the urge to change amps. The 25th Anniversary amp has voltage regulator tubes for each channel, so if the output stage started to clip, you would see the regulator tubes start to softly blink. If there is no blinking, the amp is not clipping. You can see it from 20 feet away. The amps have never clipped.

OK, you say Steve that's fine, but you have overly sensitive hearing... you listen at low levels. To that I simply apply the 1 dB per beer equation until I either start clipping the amps or give up and go to bed. So far I have always had to give up and go to bed and this has been going on for nearly a year now.  

So while I love more power, aka Zen Mystery Amp, I have yet to need it with such a superior loudspeaker, and that's only one 15 inch driver in a 2 inch thick 100 lbs baffle.

My guess is that the majority of the SET industry designs for maximum power with the lowest distortion which is of course measured into a purely resistive load at the test bench. Usually 8, 10, or 16 ohms.  So you might get an amplifier with 8 watts of output under these conditions that while holding the same distortion spec drops to less than a watt when the speaker impedance drops at certain frequencies. So advertised power and what you really get can be two different things.  

Then there is the voicing... Think of it as the dynamic contrasting that comes from the amplifiers solidity in driving difficult/complex loads. An amplifier that can drive a dead short at full volume for 24 hours without running outside it's normal operating temperature and maintaining it's distortion specs is going to sound like it's really got it's shit together when listening to dynamic rock music, or classical, or really all music regardless of type.

I've come to suspect that dynamics are perceived by the body/brain as an equation that contains speed as one of it's main variables. Speed in the equation is defined as the ability to stop, change directions and restart again and repeat. So when an amplifier with incredible speed is used, dynamics are perceived as fully realized. An amplifier with less speed would need a logarithmic increase in power and subsequent drop in output impedance to sound similar. Similar is a generous term...

Sadly Decware watts is a rare island in the ocean of hi-fi that you can only realize by first hand experience. The math/specs will leave you dazed and confused because that math was never meant to dictate how something will actually sound, only how it performs under unrealistic and highly  controlled conditions.

Over the years we have gone from the most esoteric and complex compound radiuses angled horn enclosures that no one can actually build... to  a simple dense thick baffle properly shipped to deliver a superior sound to anything else we have previously done in the past 30 years.  I could go one for days about it's advantages, the incredible bass response (what?) and the projection and dynamics that other speakers simply can't achieve... but part of the 1dB per beer equation is that after 1 dB into the formula there is no longer any point talking about it.

Steve

I own a 2017 SE84UFO (with the 25th anniversary mods) , rated at 2.3 watts per channel.

I remember when I first got interested in getting a tube amp, the fact that the Zen only had 2 watts per channel was very hard to wrap my head around. I thought, how in the hell is this amount of power going to even be close to sufficient??? Well let me try to explain to all that have the same reservations about this.

I’ve always thought that there should be a head to head comparison between the 2 watt Zen and an average SS amp so that folks interested in this tube amp might have a gauge.

Owning nothing but SS amps for 30 years - my last one was 100w per channel - I feel like a fair estimate would be that the Zen 2 watts would be the equivalent of about 50 watts of SS power. This is with efficient speakers (92db or better)

My average listening level with the Zen is at about 1 o’clock. And I almost never get above 2 o’clock and never feel the need to do so.

A stereo amp bridged is not an optimum use of the original circuit and input|output transformers.  I was questioning how much tone change occurs when you bridge a Zen stereo amp.

Steve was very clear.   His Zen amps work best with a single driver crossoverless speaker around 100 db efficient.  My speakers have 2 x 15" drivers a horn and crossover per speaker.  I went with a SET 845 based amp with 22 watts of power.  If I quad amp (2 x monos) I may try a Zen for rhe horn.

Now, if you're lucky enough to actually find a single-driver crossoverless loudspeaker that is 100dB efficient and has full bass response, it means you own a Zen Master Series baffle with the Lii Audio F15 driver...

To expand on this subject, for those with a more modest budget, Randy's Caintuck Lii 15 speakers use the same speaker element with a smaller and more resonate baffle. They can do a reasonably credible imitation of Steve's flagship speakers.

I have tried Audio Nirvana and Voxativ in open baffle.  The Voxativ by far was a more pure, clean and accurate driver.  Either however were lacking in richness and body when the piano and vocals started.  The Voxativ was drop dead gorgeous doing simple violin.  Good enough I would like to have a enclose made to bring out the bass.  Open baffle is wonderful as the layman can make a very good sounding product with little engineering.  The multi driver with horn and crossover I use is not as pure as a single driver.  But it does something I can't find in a single driver.  Just a choice

Kingrez,

My 2 cents.

I'm sure I've said this in another thread but the F15s in the full sized baffle give the most lifelike piano and vocal presentation that I've ever heard.  I have a grand piano in my living room so I can compare.  I don't have the communication skills to describe it but the "hype" on these speakers is real.  One test for me is how loud I can listen and not realize how loud it really is.  These go insanely loud by that metric.

Female vocals are to die for with these.

Its fine Brian.  Stereo is so often a contentious subject.  We spend huge amounts of money on them, then become very defensive over what we have built.   Wouldn't it be terrible if we selected wrong.  If we could have done better with our money.   I want to try one of Steve's amps one day.  At this time with what I have configured,  it does not seem the right piece.  Its not so easy to just switch.  My god, imagine selling all you have and starting new every time someone told you your stuff was inferior and theirs was better.  I dont think you would ever have a chance to listen.

I looked at the Caintuck speakers.  I believe a baffle has an optimum size to limit back waves and forward wave interactions.  On a budget I would build from plywood.  Baffle materials make a difference.  They all have a sonic signature.

Most single drivers lack deep bass fundamentals and on the top end harmonic completeness.  An 8" driver is more limited on bass than a 15.  An 8 may do highs better.  Hence speakera such as Zu.

Nice post,Happy Monday and here’s to your 17,000th Post! Cheers
Scott

...Congratulation Lon on the posts...I have enjoyed and benefited from all I have read...thanks and keep it up

Greg