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Torii MKIV Questions - Need Your Expertise (Read 2947 times)
Slapshot
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Torii MKIV Questions - Need Your Expertise
07/19/18 at 20:10:50
 
I am seriously considering the purchase of a Zen Torii MK IV and have a couple questions. First, is the beeswax type 2 upgrade worth the money? Secondly, I saw that Steve had said you should only use a world class preamplifier with the Torii MK.IV. Does this mean it is meant to be used without a preamp, and can anyone give me an idea how much it benefits from a really good preamp? Lastly, if its intended to be used, by itself, as an integrated amp, is the stepped attenuator important to add?

Thanks for any help with this. I just need to make sure I have things right. This almost definitely will be the last amplifier I will ever buy.
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Lon
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Re: Torii MKIV Questions - Need Your Expertise
Reply #1 - 07/19/18 at 20:38:58
 
Hi Slapshot,

I don't have a Torii Mk IV but I do have two Torii Mk IIIs with Jupiter Type I beeswax caps, and a Taboo Mk IV and a pair of SE84UFO3-25 Monoblocks and a ZROCK2 and a ZTPRE all with the type II Jupiter caps.

I love the Type II Jupiter caps, they are very clear and open but not at all harsh or edgy and I do believe they are the best of the options, though the other caps are good as well. . . but the Type II just give you MORE and it's more GREAT sound.

The Toriis I have are very good without a preamplifier. Besides adding more potential source inputs, a great preamp (the CSP3 and ZTPRE definitely qualify) is able to deliver a bit more detail, heft and dynamics. And I have had both the standard attenuator and the stepped. I THINK I hear a bit more detail and "clarity" with the stepped, but it's a slight bit and the real difference is that with the "steps" I can tell where the attenuators are for balance and volume matching with other components. I wouldn't say that the stepped attenuator is essential for sonic reasons.
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Slapshot
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Re: Torii MKIV Questions - Need Your Expertise
Reply #2 - 07/20/18 at 17:33:05
 
Thanks Lon. Anyone else who can speak especially to the preamp or no preamp with the Torii MKIV in terms of what is optimal?
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benlefebvre
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Re: Torii MKIV Questions - Need Your Expertise
Reply #3 - 07/20/18 at 21:10:58
 
I use a “passive” preamp I built  - basically just a way to keep my inputs organized without having to constantly swap ICs in/out of the amp. The MT, IMO, doesn’t necessarily need an active pre-amp to sound great.

I would advise the stepped attenuators. It makes it that much easier to get each channel’s volume levels correct in relationship to each other. On a related note, unless you have a really food ear, I’d get the chicken head knobs. My MT originally came with the bronze knobs, which look very nice but give you no visual clue as to where the volume levels are for each channel in relationship with each other. Obviously, you can use your ears to judge, but if you’re OCD like I am it’s nice to have the visual clues as a redundancy as well.

EDIT: Ugh, sorry - just saw this was for the Torii, not MT. Sorry.
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will
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Re: Torii MKIV Questions - Need Your Expertise
Reply #4 - 07/23/18 at 01:39:51
 
I agree with Lon. In a good setup the MKIV can sound great without a pre stage, good at bringing out various recordings qualities. And Steve's pres are Steve's, having similar considerations in development as his amps, so I think they are up to the Torii. But they do impart their own "flavors." I think it comes down to whether that flavor and whatever else the pre offers are what you might want.

For me, a primary benefit of a nice "pre" is "gain riding," either with an active pre-stage like the CSP3, or using a Zbit (or some other pre stages Steve makes). Gain riding is basically keeping the same relative volume as you turn up one component, and down the other, changing the balance of the pre and amp influences. With a CSP3 and/or Zbit between source and amp, their "volume" adjustments adjust the signal voltage going to the amp. This increases or decreases density, weight, lucidity...

I now use DAC>Zbit>CSP3>Torii IV. I think of the Torii as neutral across the volume range I use, so use its volume to establish listening levels for the most part. The Zbit and CSP3 can be used to adjust the character of the signal more. Source voltage changes make more notable differences to sonic values once turned up enough. Once there, I find their optimal "volume" ranges narrower. Roughly speaking, I could say I adjust them to beef up lean recordings, or to lean down denser darker ones, but all within a relatively narrow range that nicely brings out lucidity, body, weight, dynamics, etc, without being over-stated. Once optimal gains balance is found, any recording can be tuned to sounding best in a given system/room.

If I take out the CSP3, I get a clearer/simpler picture in ways, but miss the rich OTL character, the particular lucid/dynamic musicality of a well setup CSP3. When I take out the Zbit, I miss its clarifying, solidifying and dynamic flavor.

A possible caveat: The two together can be used to increase signal density more than just one, and all that comes with increased signal. Depending on all else, this can increase thickness. In my setup, with the added density of both, I prefer them set pretty high to best reveal their dynamic lucidity, clarifying and balancing the increased density. Here, with hot recordings, this signal push can put me closer to clipping at lower listening levels.

The CSP3 has a very wide voltage range and is an active preamp, I think up to 30V. Whereas, I think the Zbit gain control is all attenuation, its highest level, the voltage its source puts out.

My DAC RCA out = 3V, and its balanced outs = 6V. I run the Zbit volume pot from roughly 1 to 4 o'clock. Average, this may be 4 of 6V. But 4V is higher than 3 from the RCAs, lowering the clipping volume of the CSP3 some.

I'm not sure exactly what all is happening with this clipping. It may just be the higher voltage combination maxing out the Torii earlier? Or maybe higher input voltage can cause the CSP3 to saturate itself easier? Or maybe the combined increases in dynamics, with both the Zbit and CSP pushed pretty hard, results in deeper saturation. Whatever, in my setup, the Zbit before the CSP3, causes a bigger, more resolving, more clarified sound, but with some recordings that dip into saturation, it contributes to distortion at lower overall volume levels.

That said, I can easily avoid distortion and get totally satisfying listening levels. I just like the sound best with both pre stages pushed, causing some hot recordings to act up, so wanted to mention it. Hope this did not confuse things. I would still love my sound with only the CSP3, and with only the Zbit, but love having them both more!

For simplicity and price, I would get the Zbit. But for me, if I had to choose one, it would be the CSP3. The only other Deckert pre-stage I have experience with is the Zstage, and though technically more transparent, I liked the CSP3 better. My CSP is tuned to the gills though, and some others would likely prefer the simplicity of the Zbit.

Part of my preference for the CSP3 is the difficult-to-describe OTL lucid/dynamic character, but also that it has three tube positions for tuning; independent input and output stage volume adjustments you can tune separately from the main volume pot, in order to pull the most from the tubes, and to adjust right-left balance; headphone outputs; and two inputs for sources. You can get a serious range of sound from different tube sets and these tuning adjustments.

Though musical transparency seems primary with Steve’s amp development, the CSP3 does have more parts, so innately a little less transparent. But all parts are not equal, and more parts can be mitigated by design and tuning, both during the build, and later with tubes, setup, cables, etc. The Zbit has very few parts, but does have a sound, also a good one to me. I think you can get a Zbit made with right/left attenuators and with dual inputs also, narrowing the functional gap.

So either of these and more might be nice additions to the MKIV depending on what you want.

And now there is a CSP3-25, a highly tuned CSP3 by the look of it!

In my experience, we don't need these to get great sound from the Torii MKIV. They can enhance it though.

Hope this helps.

Will
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