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ZROCK Tube Rolling (Read 12761 times)
P K
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ZROCK Tube Rolling
08/06/17 at 18:38:37
 
I have about 50 hours on my ZROCK2 and it is hitting its stride with a wider and deeper soundstage (than when it was brand new (three days ago).

The tube Steve supplied is a red tip 5963 made in U.S.A. and Steve told me he found some special NOS tubes for the ZROCK.

I am curious what is the make of the tube that Steve supplied (it is a short plate gray with two long ribs and three cross ribs (like a double pane window). The "Window Pane" is flanked by two small rectangle holes aligned with the center cross rib.

Photos to follow

I have enjoyed tube rolling in the past, does anyone have any suggestions or should I just enjoy the tube Steve supplied for the 10,000 hours

Peter
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P K
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #1 - 08/06/17 at 19:15:59
 
My research says the 5963 U.S.A. gray plates is a RCA tube
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #2 - 08/06/17 at 20:11:55
 
Peter, thanks for weighing in. If you are enjoying the sound of that tube, keep using it for a while. It sounds as if it's a good one.

I'm interested in hearing more of your sonic impressions!
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P K
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #3 - 08/06/17 at 21:06:43
 

I agree with the following that another member posted:

The ZROCK made a very noticeable improvement in density throughout the frequency range everything sounded richer, fuller with more detail and with an unexpected increase in the soundstage which surprised me.

I am really surprised by how much more information I am hearing now and how much wider and deeper the soundstage seems to be.

I was also concerned that I would have too much bass, you know the non musical fill in type bass, not the case at all, everything is very balanced tight and full.
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #4 - 08/06/17 at 21:11:03
 
Thanks. It's a long wait for mine!
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P K
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #5 - 09/13/17 at 22:09:28
 
The RCA 12au7 Tube That Steve D uses seems to offer a fuller lush sound than The $80 Mazda 12au7 that I used for tube rolling.  Sometimes the RCA is a little too lush (syrupy), but the Mazda is a little boring, but more linear sound.

I keep going back and forth.

Any one else try tube rolling in a ZRock Undecided Undecided
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P K
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #6 - 09/14/17 at 00:29:03
 
Back To The Mazda, tighter bass and clarity but a little boring Cool
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #7 - 09/14/17 at 19:08:48
 
I have tried RCA clear tops RCA grey plates Gold Lion re-issue and the one Steve provides. I ended up using the Gold Lion it seemed to give a good balance between nice tight bass and a fuller lush sound. I also like that it is a current production tube so I will be able to replace it when needed. I am sure curiosity will cause me to try some more of course, but I am happy for now.
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P K
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #8 - 09/25/17 at 00:34:07
 
I found a RCA Command 5814A in my stash, it adds the bass punch that the Mazda was missing without the syrupy sound the supplied RCA 12au7,
a happy medium or blend between the two?
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P K
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #9 - 09/25/17 at 00:35:30
 
I meant the red tip 5963 made in U.S.A. (RCA?) that came with the ZROCK
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #10 - 09/25/17 at 00:40:28
 
The last few components I have gotten from Steve have had red-tipped tubes, and NOT NOS so I believe Steve is red-tipping these tubes himself. . . .
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P K
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #11 - 10/15/17 at 17:46:24
 
I am auditioning one last tube (or just till next time I get curious).

A 1970 CV429 Brimar (or maybe a Mullard) 15 mm Gray Plate, Made at the Blackburn Mullard Factory.  Use this tube for music, or

A RCA Command 5814A, shiny short backplate, for extra bass when watching movies or TV. it has a pushy bass that is great for video, buts gets a little muddy in the bass for some music.

The next tube may be a new production in Russia Gold Lion Reissue, does anyone think the Gold Lion will be in the same league.

Thanks,

Peter Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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P K
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #12 - 10/15/17 at 17:48:34
 
Correction the 5814A RCA Command has a punchy Bass for Video, (perky?, Dynamic?).
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #13 - 10/15/17 at 18:08:14
 
Interesting. I've read good things about the Gold Lion, worth checking out.

When I get my ZROCK2 (probably a few months from now) I am going to try an Amperex 6085 I have and an RCA 6189. I have the tubes. . . ready and able.
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #14 - 10/16/17 at 02:57:23
 
Yes, once I have selected an ideal tube I red tip it to distinguish it from other tubes.  

The first thing I do is match the sections so that we have perfect channel balance.  

Then I check the harmonic distortion of each section to be sure it not only matches in total % but then also matches in harmonics.  Occasionally a tube (or tubes) will have an unexplained difference in each section on the 3rd or 4th or 5th harmonic.  

The tube is then run in and cycled a couple times to ensure stability.  

This series of tests not even the best tube tester can accomplish, so without these tests there is a certain degree of "unknown" with any tube.

We just want to start you off with the absolute best tubes possible so that you have a solid reference to compare with when or if you roll tubes.

Steve
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P K
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #15 - 10/22/17 at 13:34:17
 
UPDATE

I was able to secure a BRIMAR CV 4003 from the early sixties, this is an big upgrade in the Mid to Highs with tighter bass.

I have sent Back the CV429, the CV4003 in simply better, with a more 3D sound,.

I hope I am now finish in my recent tube rolling hobby.

It is time to just relax and listen to the music.

Peter
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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P K
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #16 - 10/22/17 at 17:03:37
 
CORRECTION:

The tube I sent back was a 1970 BRIMAR CV491, not a CV429 I referred to in previous posts


Peter Cry Cry Cry
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P K
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #17 - 11/06/17 at 13:09:11
 
Tungsram 12au7. Great low noise tube with a more neutral and smooth presentation, and great bass. A cheaper alternative to the Brimar, but in the same league, maybe a little tighter bass.

My system likes a more neutral mid range, but the Brimar 12au7 is also a special tube (System dependent for which tube, both are great).

Try it you will like it.

Peter
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P K
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #18 - 11/06/17 at 13:10:51
 
Photo Of Brimar CV 4003/12au7
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #19 - 11/21/17 at 15:45:42
 
Thanks for the tube tips P K.

Steve sent me an excellent RCA tube with the ZROCK2, perhaps the same as he sent you. I like it a lot, but I had also purchased two pairs of tubes in anticipation of receiving the unit and have rolled those in.

One, the Amperex 6085 is a massive tube, as big as an EL84 or SV83, and has a very clear, open, big sound with no hint of warmth or lushness. It's great with hi-res material, but just a bit forward for me with Redbook (most of my listening). I have been popping it in for hi-res listening.

The other are RCA 6189 and at first I didn't care for this tube but it needed time to burn in and settle down and now it is very close to the RCA that Steve sent and is perhaps a bit more clear and dynamic with a touch less warmth or lushness. I'm leaving it in for now, it's doing a really good job with EQ A at adding a bit of heft and punch to lean recordings and taming a bit of harshness on brighter, edgy recordings.

The ZROCK2 is a formidable beast for taking charge of the system sound!
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calord
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #20 - 11/21/17 at 17:45:48
 
My new ZROCK2 arrives some time today! Can't wait.
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #21 - 11/21/17 at 17:56:54
 
Awesome calord! Keep us posted.
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #22 - 11/22/17 at 20:29:36
 
colord - Nice! Mine is scheduled to arrive this coming Monday!!!!!
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calord
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #23 - 11/22/17 at 21:55:22
 
Hi Lon, Tal.....  My new ZROCK2 did arrive yesterday/Tuesday.  I took my time unpacking and warming it up to extend the fun!  I patched it in between my pre and amps.....and began to listen.  First without EQ....sounded good. Played with the knob....then switched in EQ A and dialed....at loud levels it did just what I hoped it would....unti I turned down the volume and the EQ up.....  ARGH!  Big hum! I did all diagnosis: swapped/rerouted cables, interchanged channels, reassured all connections, EQ A, EQ B, in/defeat/in/defeat.  I even ran it without the inputs cables connected.  Bottom line: Big Hum when either EQ is active and it increases directly with the knob from 12:00 o'clock to max EQ.  I immediately called Decware, got Josh who went to find Steve.  Steve was out...no call back.  I called this morning/left message, and again this afternoon...no response yet.   Embarrassed  I am sure Steve will make it right, but, I gotta admit to disappointment on the eve of thanksgiving.
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #24 - 11/22/17 at 22:39:15
 
Well, I've some hum too, just as I had hum with a CSP2+ for a long time, I can definitely hear it near the speaker but not at all at the listening position.

It took me a while with the CSP2+ but I finally found that paying attention to cable placement cleared up the hum for me. Now in this home and set up it is harder to get behind and reroute cables so I haven't yet done so, but I'm pretty sure in my case that would cure it. Even though I use shielded cables at some point hum comes in. . . .I'll separate power and interconnects as much as I can and I bet mine goes away. Hope it's as simple as that for you. (What I have now doesn't really effect the sound for me, and no hum at all when I use the ZROCK2 to feed the Taboo Mk IV, so it's cabling around the Torii is my guess.)
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #25 - 11/22/17 at 22:42:30
 
Tal, I saw your ZROCK2 was about to ship last time I was looking at the Build List. Just have to get through the holiday weekend! Smiley Happy Thanksgiving.
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calord
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #26 - 11/22/17 at 23:42:45
 
Hi Lon.....  Yes, I tried the rerouting that you suggest, separating power and signal cables, different cables, etc.  My hum is in both channels and Very Audible from my listening position.  And, as mentioned, increases directly with the EQ increase.  It is virtually not there when the EQ is bypassed or turned below 12:00 o'clock.....and unchanged even with the inputs unplugged. Conclusion: it's coming from somewhere in the EQ circuitry.   Sad
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #27 - 11/23/17 at 00:02:29
 
Possible conclusion, yes. Hopefully Steve will get in touch with you soon. Hum is annoying and tricky. Hopefully yours can be identified and remedied quickly.
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #28 - 12/01/17 at 21:31:06
 
Well, two weeks in and I'm back to using the tube that Steve supplied. It has a great balance of tonal fullness and a bit of lushness that no other tube I've rolled so far can match. I think it might become stuck in the ZROCK2. . . .
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #29 - 12/07/17 at 17:42:29
 
I can't help it, I keep experimenting. The ZROCK2 is just not happy sitting there unadjusted. It beguiles me into tube-rolling and playing with settings.

I've moved back to the 6085 tube. In its current state of "seasoning/undress" that the ZROCK2 is inhabiting the clarity that it brings and the pulse it seems to coax out of the system is sounding really good. With the set up I am using I can tailor the sound of my entire system with a tube and setting choice in the ZROCK2 and also by using the different settings on the PS Audio P10 and the Torii Mk III. There is a very different signature between a little twist of EQA and the P10's mode as "High Regulation" and the same twist of EQ and the P10 set to "Lowest Distortion." Also the same two combinations of settings sound different still when I move the speaker ohm switch on the Mk III from 4 to 8. For me the ZROCK2 is a different way to tweak and fine tune and play around with the sound, and I'm having fun with these new "windows."

Will, I think you might really enjoy the ZROCK2 but I hate to recommend it as it's a whole  nother black hole to strap yourself in and travel through . . . .

And Tom, as one bass-head to another, this is the stuff. Period.

With this little box I'm getting some of the best sound ever under my roof. . . .  
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #30 - 12/07/17 at 18:44:49
 
Just sent my original ZROCK to Steve yesterday to be updated to the New version and also add silver RCA's. Interested to see what the difference will be. He should have it there by Monday.
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #31 - 12/07/17 at 19:47:15
 
Here's hoping for a speedy return! I bet it comes back better than ever!
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #32 - 12/07/17 at 21:45:10
 
calord

I haven't noticed any hum with the zrock. sorry to hear you are experiencing hum. I know Steve will get back to you to trouble shoot the problem as soon possible. Nonetheless, I know it is frustrating.

Tal
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #33 - 12/23/18 at 18:43:20
 
Just picked up a pair of 1958 RCA 12AU7 clear tops that tested out as new. Got them cheap too!

Look forward to rolling these in my 25th Anniversary modified ZR2. Only a couple months to go.

HK
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #34 - 12/25/18 at 15:00:58
 
Those can be some pretty darned good tubes. I used a Conn labeled version in my ZP3 for a while, and it is pretty nice in the ZROCK2 as well, though I can't keep Amperex out of the ZROCK2--I have a Bugle Boy Holland in right now. Just the right texture and tone for my system.

I too am waiting as patiently as I can for the fully modified ZROCK2 I ordered. Especially as in about 6 weeks I'll be setting up a second system and will want to use a ZROCK2 in that, and will have two when this new one arrives.
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #35 - 07/15/19 at 15:20:44
 
Just ordered some early 1960's Raytheon 5814A tubes with windmill getters. I want to try these out in the ZRock2.

Right now I'm listening to a Amperex 12au7 tube. It hasn't completely burned in but initial listening results are positive. Not quite as dense as the Steve's Raytheon tube.

HK
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #36 - 08/03/19 at 22:32:29
 
So HK, how’d the 5814A’s with the windmill getter sound. I’ve been thinking of buying that tube. Seems a little pricey for the ones i’ve found.
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #37 - 08/07/19 at 22:33:33
 
Give the Raytheon 5814a W Getter LOTS of time to burn in.  At the 50 hour mark I thought that had burned in but it just kept getting better and better.   Yes they have become pricey.  I managed to pick up 5 while they were still very reasonable, way more that what I’ll need.  I plan to get one cryo treated to see what the difference that makes, but that’s been sidelined for now.

I have a Sylvania 5963 grey plate red tipped, GE5963 Grey plate red tipped and Steve also sent me a NU 5963 black plate.  I picked up a couple of RCA 5963 grey plate and an RCA 5963 black plate.  Some of the grey plates are long plate versions.

Prior to the A-Mods I had a Siemens ECC82 Nickel or silver plate as the go to, and I also tried a Siemens E80CC (long tube)

In my system The Raytheon 5814 W Getter bested all of the above in every way you could think and is now the tube for my ZR-2A.  It’s unfortunate the the price of these has gone up so much.
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #38 - 08/08/19 at 00:43:02
 
I haven't tried a "windmill getter" 5814A but I have tried a GE gray plate and an RCA black plate and they are excellent tubes for the ZROCK2. I like the RCA a bit more, just the right touch of warmth.

I really have two different complements of tubes that make two different wonderful amps out of my SE84UFO3 25th Anniversary mono blocks, and the difference is really voltage regulation tubes in the amps for the output tubes, and the tube in the ZROCK2. One great amp is using old RCA 0A3 in the amps and the Amperex 6085 in the ZROCK2, this is a showstopper combo--great recordings have all the audiophile qualities and really shine. But lesser recordings don't fare as well. The other amp that is kinder to most recordings and gets used more often as I listen more to mediocre recordings than fantastic ones is using a pair of Arcturus 0B3 in the amps and the RCA 5814A in the ZROCK2. This has a little touch of forgiveness and warmth that makes it my every day combo.
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Lon
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"Love without
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #39 - 08/21/19 at 01:01:22
 
For a few days I've been experimenting with an Amperex 5814a tube in my ZROCK2. At first in comparison to the excellent RCA black plate it seemed a bit thick and boxed in, but with experimentation riding the gain between preamp and ZBIT and with moe hours the gap closed, and I swapped input tubes on the Monoblocks to Valvo E288CC on a hunch and this livelier tube (than the Amperex 7308 I have been using this month) is a good match. I'm especially noticing that dynamic contrasts are a bit more clearly delineated with this complement; I was playing a recording that utilizes shades of dynamics (Jimmy Smith "Prayer Meeting" on Blue Note) and tickled by the gentle and not-so-gentle swells.

There is so much you can do with these Decware components to tailor the sound and explore the different soundscapes possible. A wonderful and thrilling situation.
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Lon
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"Love without
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #40 - 01/25/20 at 15:31:49
 
Lately I've reconfigured all the input tubes in my signal chain but the ZROCK2 to GE 5670W with converters. And I really enjoy the resulting sound--neutral, with more back to front depth than ever before. I rolled rectifiers and regulation tubes (for the output tubes, the regulation tubes for the input tubes are inside the amps and I haven't felt like taking them down and apart recently) and I keep coming back to the Sophia Electric Aqua 274B--they have a great synergy with the 5670Ws--and the oldest pair of Sylvania 0B3 I have found, which took a while to bloom but have become fine tubes.

So with all that squared away between ZTPRE and 25th Anniversary modded SE84UFO3 Monoblocks, it was time to experiment with tubes for the ZROCK2.

I really like an Amperex 5814A that I have had in the component for a while, but with the 5670W they are just a little too. . . clinical? that may be the best word. I tried a Raytheon 5814A with an angled D getter that is a very nice tube but the one I received is quite microphonic and when it settled in occasionally it goes into a hissy fit; I have another example of this same tube on the way to me. In the meantime I found I had a Brimar CV 4003 that PK mentions enjoying above. It gives a fullness to the instrumental imaging and brings my digital a step closer to an analog sound. It is hard to take out of right now! I did get in a trio of RCA Command 5814A to try but I've resisted trying one so far. I did put one in my original ZROCK2 in the audio/video system, and it sounds very good, replacing an Amperex 6085 there that also sounds very good. That system is in a bigger, great "sonically" room and also is using different preamp and amp (CSP3 and Taboo Mk IV, both with the Anniversary mods). I'll try to resist popping the RCAs in the ZROCK2 in the main system for a bit more, I'm so enjoying the sound with the Brimar!
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HockessinKid
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #41 - 04/01/20 at 22:21:58
 
With my new Modwright 9.0 phono preamp feeding the ZROCK, the Raytheon 5814A tube was giving me a little too much richness & mid-range presence. I switched to the RCA cleartop and wham - greater clarity and dimensionality. Voices are sounding perfect!

Love the way tube rolling in Decware equipment lets you tailor the sound until it's just right to your ears.

HK
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piezoman
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #42 - 05/31/20 at 03:46:46
 
I'm curious as to why the 5963 tube is considered "special" , since this was originally developed for computer applications. Seems to me there are vastly superior options, many of which have been noted in this thread.
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #43 - 09/23/20 at 15:41:04
 
I think the lower plate voltage gives the 5963 a bit of a unique character and it is purportedly a longlife tube, never a bad thing that.

This week I've been breaking in a new Psvane tube, a Cossor (yeah, right) 12AU7. A review online made me seek one out. I have to admit it's more laid back than I thought it would be, a bit warm and yet quite clear and dynamic. I only have about 50 hours on it and it has made a few "swings" in sound but I think it will end up being a good contendor for many of my complements.

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Lon
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"Love without
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #44 - 09/23/20 at 20:47:23
 
Been organizing my tubes as a project. Here is most of my "overflow" . . . .
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HockessinKid
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #45 - 09/23/20 at 22:58:22
 
Lon,

Your tubes floweth over 🤣😂🤣😂.

HK
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"Love without
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Philip K. Dick

Posts: 23305
Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #46 - 09/24/20 at 03:29:37
 
Yes, I have one more tackle box full and a few smaller boxes that I keep near the amps to roll. I have 20 pair of the output tubes for the amps. . . that's probably a lifetime supply, especially as for the Monoblocks I order pairs from Steve once a year or so!
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #47 - 10/02/20 at 15:35:06
 
I've switched back to the Raytheon 5814A tube with a windmill getter. There is something really addictive with this tube in the ZRock 2. It's great to have options.

HK
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"Love without
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Philip K. Dick

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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #48 - 01/05/21 at 13:33:54
 
It's amazing what a tube change does in the ZROCK2. Three years in now and I'm pretty famiiar with this game-changing component, but it still surprises me sometimes.

In my main system I find the most "volatile" components as far as tube-rolling go to be the ZTPRE and the ZROCK2. I think it's just the way that the system is configured that makes them so prominent sonically. I have narrowed all my choices down lately to two sets of tubes for the ZTPRE and correspondingly two input tubes for the ZROCK2. I either use Amperex 6085 with converters to 6922 for the ZTPRE or a six pack of 6N5P. When I use the 6085 I get best results with a 6085 in the ZROCK2, and when I use the 6N5P in the ZROCK2 I use an Amperex (labeled Hewlett Packard) 12AU7 which like Goldilock's porrige is "just right."

I love the sound either of these set ups offer to the system; I think I'll leave the 6N5P in for a while and use the 6085 with converters in my audio/visual system downstairs when I set that back up next week (it's been out of use for two months due to repair and remodeling of the living room).
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Re: ZROCK Tube Rolling
Reply #49 - 01/07/21 at 06:03:20
 
I've seen with lots of tube gear people using the 12BH7 in lieu of a 12au7 and far preferring the former tube, mostly due to it being a more linear tube.

Has anyone tried a 12BH7 variant in a ZR2? For example, RCA long black plates? Sorry if covered elsewhere, but I did search and did not find any mention.

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