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ZROCK2 (Read 18273 times)
Lon
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #100 - 01/15/18 at 18:40:31
 
Don't sweat it, just be calm for the test. I think a call to Steve is the next step. . . not sure what else to suggest.
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #101 - 01/15/18 at 18:44:11
 
Should work the way you want it to as you have the gain control on the ZMA, only need a preamp if you don't have gain adjustment on an amp.

Unless your input and output are different, I don't know what's going on. . . Relax, get the test, call Steve. . . keep us posted. Sorry this is happening, I know how frustrating it can be.
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Jeff of Arabica
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #102 - 01/15/18 at 18:57:29
 
Did you try another tube?  if you have one.  Could have gotten damaged in transit if the box was rattled around enough.  

But does the signal go through the tube even in bias?  If so, can't be the tube.
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Archie
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #103 - 01/15/18 at 19:00:15
 
I asked Steve specifically about using the ZR2 after my CSP3, which can put out 30 volts.  The ZR2 can handle 15 volts.  Steve said that I'd have no problem -- couldn't damage anything, but I couldn't run the CSP3 full out into the ZR2.  I don't know the maximum that the ZDSD puts out but if it's near the 15 volts, that could account for the distortion.  I'm only mentioning this to give more information.  Obviously, Steve will have to solve the problem.

I second Lon's suggestion of turning the ZDSD down to see the effect.  If the ARC is after the ZDSD and the ZR2 works then I'd guess the ARC would be throttling down the ZDSD somehow.
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Archie
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #104 - 01/15/18 at 19:05:18
 
I found this on the ZDSD page:   Quote:
These Silver Jacks are the output of a fully differential balanced circuit driving a fully floating pair of high gain, wide bandwidth transformers. The result is between two and five times the standard 2 volt output of the stock RCA jacks. The amount of output is adjustable from the front control panel.


This seems to say that the ZDSD puts out 4 to 10 volts.
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #105 - 01/15/18 at 19:18:46
 
Jeff of Arabica wrote on 01/15/18 at 18:57:29:
Did you try another tube?  if you have one.  Could have gotten damaged in transit if the box was rattled around enough.  

But does the signal go through the tube even in bias?  If so, can't be the tube.

Jeff, I THINK the bypass just goes from input to output and bypasses the tube itself. So yes, it could well be the tube and another tube would be a good test, don't know if Larry has one, he probably has a box full of 6922 types but 12AU7s. . . .

I hope it can be resolved soon. . .and I think we need Steve's help.
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Jeff of Arabica
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #106 - 01/15/18 at 19:32:55
 
The Tascam DA-3000 specs. show a "Maximum Output Level: 6 dBV"
At setting "Reference Level: -20", the maximum output, going through Steve's transformer coupled output jacks with a 5 times voltage output, could put it over the ZR2 input tolerance.  Not sure how to interpret this, but at the highest output level setting, -20, this is what the Tascam outputs:
Standard level: +4 dBu
Maximum level: +24dBu

Point being, it could be that with the highest setting, and Steve's output jacks, it could exceed the ZR2 tolerance.

There is an easy way to rule this out Stone.  Simply use the stock ZDSD outputs (which Steve kept intact) into the ZROCK2, rather than the Decware output jacks to see if you still get distortion.  If you do, then the output at Ref. -20 setting is too much for the ZR2 and you will just have to turn it down until there is no distortion even with ZR2 turned all the way up.  

If there is still distortion out of the stock ZDSD RCA output jacks, then probably a ZR2 issue.
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #107 - 01/15/18 at 20:02:33
 
Sound advice. Larry is at the doctor's right now. . . .
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stone_of_tone
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #108 - 01/15/18 at 21:21:53
 
Stress test went well. I got in early at 1:40pm....since it did not involve an IV.....I was in and out. I get the interpretation tomorrow.

I did not have time to change the output  of my ZDSD. So, soon as I got back.....I fired it all up and knocked my ZDSD down to -9, its lowest setting. It works....but, still a haze to it....not distortion per se'....haze.

When I try to go to -14 it distorts again/mildly, and completely unusable at: -16 , -18 or -20....where I keep it to run into ZMA direct from ZDSD.

Not sure if I like knocking it down and not that pleased with the haze still at -9...so burn in time will be allowed.

1) I want to know the voltage of my ZDSD at all five increments (-9, 14, 16, 18 & -20).
2) The voltage input max of the ZROCK2
.....Steve will chime in.

I don't plan on using it with my Line Stage.

See, the whole idea behind the ZDSD's output stage and its voltage output...I like at max (-20)/FOR ME.....is its ability to drive the ZMA direct/no Pre......with balls/density weight and dynamics+Steve's output stage's extended highs....midrange/...killer of course...but keeping the tonal balance in check. It does. My Audio Research Line Stage goes in on occasion when you want to get kicked in the chest + continued definition.
YM WILL V......depending on Cables resolution/noise floor...Speaker Tweeters and Driver's to handle high SPL's with density and extension.

Well, I will burn her in .....see what I think.

PS-I deleted my post over in the development thread...did not belong there.

Thanks for your input guys, of course!

I did not think to try the output of my ZDSD first....I thought why would Steve design it not to handle its -20 capability? Plus, the ZR2 is to be at 15v input.  ...so, of course, I thought it to be something else....process of elimination............ensued.

I really want to know those values in my 1) and 2) questions above?!

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Jeff of Arabica
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #109 - 01/15/18 at 22:23:32
 
Those are great questions Stone and I wouldn't mind knowing the answers to both, being a ZDSD owner myself.  I do remember the POWER of this DAC when I ran it straight to my ZMA.  When reference level set at -20, I could never get my ZMA knob past 9 or 10 o'clock.
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #110 - 01/15/18 at 22:40:51
 
Glad you got in and out and here's hoping for great results.

I don't know the answer to those questions. I do think that "haze" will dissipate in a few days and I too had to play around with the gain between my source and ZTPRE and ZBIT all being adjustable. . . I always have my Torii volume turned completely up, sounds most transparent and natural that way to me, so I'm dealing with lower gains on source, ZTPRE and ZBIT (and getting full-bodied dynamic sound, no distortion).

Hopefully Steve will weigh in, and hopefully with some experimentation you'll find the system singing with the ZROCK2.
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stone_of_tone
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #111 - 01/16/18 at 15:18:28
 
Unfortunately, even at the ZDSD's lowest reference level output of -9db....what I thought was haze...is distortion. However, not on all tracks.

The unit is running as intended: Both A and B EQ's, Bypass, Unity Gain...and dialing the hit between 1/2 and 3/4,...2/3rd's is spot on and variations of~up or down a smidge/beautiful Unit. However, in the treble.....  distortion rears its head....you clearly hear and grabs your attention.... .

Once again, I can't use any higher output as referenced in previous post of -14. -16, -18 or -20.
That is just fine using the -9 (it is relative) with the output/EQ provided by the ZR2 to the gain of my ZMA,

if: With more seasoning of the Cap ~ clears the treble periodic distortion up.

I could try the stock outputs, yes. However,

1) what is their voltage output vs. the -9 I'm using? I could just try it and see if the treble distortion goes away.

2) However,.....I don't want to get away from this great ZDSD/output stage of Steve's.

I will continue to season in and see if its just the Cap/unit burn in needed.

Maybe the ZDSD/output stage, is just not a good candidate for the ZR2, even at its lowest -9 output setting? The Unit is running as intended...or, all tracks would reveal the periodic (there and then not there) treble distortion issue.

Will hear/see......if I can get the issue to clear up (periodic treble distortion)....then I can do some bypass comparisons too....bypass in the unit.....and with out in System. My System is configured on the floor and easy to power down and switch out components.



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Lon
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #112 - 01/16/18 at 15:34:18
 
Man, sorry to read of your problems with treble distortion. I haven't heard any distortion myself . . .I would definitely be concerned if I did.

I don't know enough about the DSD to be of any help. I've been so enthralled with my DirectStream DAC and its balanced output has been so compatible with ZTPRE and ZBIT that I get amazing transparency. When I first ordered and then canceled and re-ordered the ZROCK2 I was fearful of encountering just the situation you are experiencing. . . but instead I've had a transformative experience.

In your shoes I'd follow the plan you outline, and try to talk with Steve and seek his advice. . . . I'm certainly hoping that there's a way to get both the output stage benefit and the great benefit of the ZROCK2.

Mark should have his ZROCK2 today I believe, here's hoping he has no issues.

I spent four days listening to headphones and a straight from ZBIT to Taboo Mk IV pathway (no ZROCK2) for four days because my wife was off. Today the system is playing, ZROCK2 to Torii Mk III to HR-1 and boy does it sound great --I feel really blessed.
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stone_of_tone
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #113 - 01/17/18 at 04:42:47
 
It is problematic without the use of an Preamplifier.

I do not want to use with my Line Stage.

The -9db of my ZDSD, is to little of output through the ZR2 and distorts. The -14, -16, -18 & -20, are far to much output and cause distortion.

I will be returning for a Refund.
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JOMAN
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #114 - 01/17/18 at 04:46:55
 
Hey Stone,

I had the same issue with my ZROCK2 when I got it.  I was running it between the ZDSD and the CSP3.  The ZDSD was set at -18.  Turning the gain down on the ZDSD helped eliminate a lot of the distortion but it was still there and the density that I was used to was no longer there.

I then changed the tube from the RCA to my Siemens ECC82 Nickel plate and the result was even worse so I put the RCA back in.

I then repositioned the ZROCK2.  Put it between the CSP3 and the SE84UFO2.  Problem virtually disappeared.  I then put the Siemens back in - WOW, GREAT OR WHAT!

Gave it a few hours of burn in and I bumped up the ZDSD to -18.  All was great.  However on some poorly recorded music that had electronic bass I still perceived the odd distortion and more so in the vocals oddly enough.  I remembered that when I first got my S3HOXRS I was getting some distortion or rattle from one of the speakers that appeared to be coming from a driver.  Turns out it was a mechanical rattle.  Tightening up the screws that held the driver in place with some burn in eliminated the problem.

So I took the grills off my speakers and - no more distortion.  Put the grills back on and started lightly tapping on the grill frame.  The grills are held in place with magnets.  Sure enough around the middle of the grill I could hear mechanical rattle.  I’m going to experiment with putting some thin cushion on the grill frame to eliminate the mechanical rattle because it really bugs me to see these miniature drivers, with the grills off, producing the scale of image and sound that they do.  It simply makes no sense and it makes me feel that these buggers are deliberately messing with my mind - so I cover them up by keeping the grills in place.

I talked to Steve about this and he did indicate that positioning the ZROCK2 between the ZDSD and CSP3 could cause the CSP3 to “magnify” (my words) what was being fed from the ZDSD.  Also I recalled that when I first got my ZDSD I perceived some “distortion” from some recordings.  Steve thought it could be in the recording itself or “digititus” being more discernible.  Turns out that was the case.  So I’ve got the ZDSD gain turned up and then that is further exsarbated by the gain settings of the CSP3.  My system is very transparent and fast so whatever is upstream becomes very evident very quickly.  That’s OK with me because it just makes me work at it until I get it to where I want it to be.

There was one other niggle that I discovered with my ZROCK.  The white wires on the by-pass switch weren’t correctly attached.  No biggie for me.  Things go wrong at times, and that can’t be helped.  It’s that after sales service that counts and I’ve had great service from Decware.  I’m handy with a soldering iron and these are easily accessible so I’m not sending the ZROCK back for this work to be done because I don’t want to be with out it!  I’m doing the work myself, no complaints from me espaecially after all the time that Steve has spent addressing all my questions and concerns.  

I don’t know if this is a contributing factor because the “distortion” problem seems to have disappeared.  I’m going to put some more hours on it and see what happens, but I am one very happy camper with it in place where it is between the CSP3 and the UFO2.

I don’t know if this will be of help to you, but I thought I would post my experience with the ZROCK2.  Hope you can work this out because, man, does it make a difference.

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stone_of_tone
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #115 - 01/17/18 at 05:14:38
 
Thanks Joman for sharing your experience with the ZR2.

It certainly is problematic without a Pre. Once you put it between your Pre and Amp/it does its thing.

I'm a purist of tone/timbre and only occasionally use my Line Stage in my chain. For me, the only acceptance of the ZR2...was to run ZDSD to ZR2 to ZMA. It is not capable of doing so. I am returning.
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #116 - 01/17/18 at 12:32:52
 
Sorry it has turned out this way Stone. I hadn't anticipated this sort of problem with the DSD. And I'd be in your shoes about not wanting to use a preamp. . . if I had not encountered the ZTPRE, the most unique preamp I've ever heard. It really works so well at improving the sound of my system both with and without the ZROCK2. I'm lucky!
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stone_of_tone
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #117 - 01/17/18 at 13:55:49
 
NO Line Stage (Preamplifier) is absolutely 100%  transparent. My Audio Research:
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649353546-audio-research-ls2b-mkii-line-stere...

The LS-2B MkII & the LS-16, are the last of the great Class A outputs using 6922 tube variants, the most transparent and truly high definition, you will ever hear. They are like chickens teeth on the used market, but do come up here and there. Cult Status they have secretly and not so secretly achieved.  These two models absolutely trash out the 6H30 tube, Audio Research now uses. So, no need for a ZTPRE for me.

I put in the LS-2B and turn my ZMA into a whole other Beast. However, as stated, for absolute purity.....ZDSD to ZMA, for me, most of the time.

However, I could get another pair of IC's (KS1030's only will do-to my all copper KS6063) and run the ZR2 between my Line Stage and ZMA....and the ZR2 will do its thing. I just don't want to do it that way.....I wanted it direct. It should have been made clear to only use with an Preamplifier.

I'm all set....and my set up, Kabling and NOS Platinum tube rolling can't be beat. I could never go back to low power/I have decided and certainly could never go back to lamp cord Speaker wire that most use. 95db sensitivity @ 1 watt/1 meter ......I find horrid too. I have stated this before. .....why I sold my Monoliths....the Tweeter and that driver...my Adagio Tweeter's and Driver's absolutely crushed.

Each to their own. Enjoying the music for your ear brain connection...is all that matters.
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #118 - 01/17/18 at 14:33:10
 
Cool. I'm not going to judge your ARC without hearing it, and I'll just say the ZTPRE is an innovative design and I'll excuse you judging it without hearing it but if I could do without it I would welcome that but. . .  it just does do what Steve says, it's not there but it makes things better. Would be interesting if you get to hear one one day. . . I'd welcome your opinion.

Sorry the ZROCK2 didn't work out for you. Glad you are happy with what you have, that's what counts as you say.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #119 - 01/17/18 at 15:00:09
 
Stone,

I’d second your take on the ARC pre’s That use the 6922 vs. The 6H30.  I had both and felt the same.  

What interests me about the ZR2 and ZDSD is, this “distortion” issue, is it limited to that combo because of the high gain setting that we are using?  It’s more of a curiosity for me than a concern because it is working for me, but I also do understand your take on the situation.

I also agree that once one gets used to density that comes from the higher gain settings of the Decware output stage in the ZDSD it’s hard to go back, I sure can’t.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #120 - 01/17/18 at 15:21:39
 
By the way Lon,  thanks to your comments about the ZTPRE I’m considering replacing the CSP3.  I’m also in for the A-Amp, this is getting really close to alimony territory.

You know - sometimes ignorance is bliss and advisable, please keep that in mind when you comment about the ZTPRE. Wink
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #121 - 01/17/18 at 15:38:46
 
Duly noted. I know what you mean about alimony territory. And yes, anyone who loved the CSP2 or 3 would love the ZTPRE immediately and be shocked at how invisible it becomes as you play with adjustment and tube choices. The "Z Amigos" have really changed my listening perspective from "Keep it Simple Stupid" to "wow, these have done so mush for my sound!" The ZBIT was that rascally friend who introduced me to his partners in crime, first the ZTPRE and then the ZROCK2.

I'm listening to a piano trio right now that sounds so natural and present. . . the very same recording delighted me two year ago, but didn't sound this rich and convincing. I spent a ton of money to get from there to here but I'm not complaining. I was happy then, I'm happy now, and happiness is the wonder of human existence. . . .
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #122 - 01/17/18 at 16:05:37
 
Yes, well... in my case the partner in crime isn’t going to be the ZBIT.  Somehow I don’t think that “Lon made me do it” is going to cut it.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #123 - 01/17/18 at 16:07:03
 
Oh yes, how could I forget... “Happy wife, happy life”!
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #124 - 01/17/18 at 16:09:14
 
NO I don't think that excuse will work. I have faith in your imagination. . . you'll come up with a good one.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #125 - 01/18/18 at 03:09:23
 
This evening I was setting the gain on the output of the CSP3 and as I adjusted the left channel the right speaker was being adjusted, adjusting the left output caused the right speaker to respond.

When I got the ZR2 I noticed that when I would flip the by pass switch the same would happen.  Steve asked me to send a picture of the wiring of the by pass switch and said that the problem was with the white wires and I could send it back so that the white wires could be reversed.  Ain’t no way the ZR2 is leaving my home so I was going to do the work myself.

Well tonight the need to do this was reinforced, so I finally did it and... another WOW.

The adjustment on the ZR2 works exactly as described now, more responsive and sensitive, transparency has further improved and the “distortion” that was initially heard - gone.  I had my ZDSD set at -18dB and adjusted it down to -16dB.  Not because of distortion at -18dB but because the bass was too prominent at low level at -18dB and right at -16dB.  

I still have it positioned between the CSP3 and UFO2.  This weekend I’ll try putting it between the ZDSD and CSP3 again to see what happens.  Right now I just want to let it burn in a little more while enjoying the music.

What I can tell you is that now, after reversing the wires on the by pass switch, it makes even more of a difference at low level, even in the mids and highs than it did before.

At low level voices are more palpable, highs and mids more present.  Before I would have to turn the volume much higher to get the same result.

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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #126 - 01/18/18 at 14:59:45
 
Point well taken on the ZTPRE Lon. Your three amigo's I have enjoyed your posts as well.

Joman, yes, once captivated by the ZDSD direct with its output to drive the ZMA with density....I can't go without its purity. Why, I sold my CSP3 with Jup' Caps.

The Audio Research is special, even being the hybrid that it is....with single tube....which does provide sonic difference via Mullard E188CC/7308 vs. horrific stock tube's one could put in. AR has a signature that is uncanny and I need (often) driving thru the Class A to AB1 output of the ZMA.....no Class A/B Amps need apply.... .

Having said that and having owned an CSP3 for over two years....I wish I never sold it!  Incredible Pre....but I don't have to tell you guys!

Alimony? Don't lose her JOMAN! Find the balance.  8-)

I am divorced. Fortunately, she would have PAID ME Spousal Maintenance.

However, in lieu of alimony to me/for LIFE.....I had her agree to, in addition to the college fund we grew substantially over our 21 year marriage...she would also pay significant amounts of the balance to their education when the fund ran out.....3 of them now in College.   ....and at 42k a year for each of them ....she is doing as agreed.

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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #127 - 01/18/18 at 15:27:43
 
J, that's very interesting about the wiring boo boo and how the correction has made such a difference. Wow. Glad that the ZROCK2 is now being all it can be! Will be interesting to hear it right after the ZEN DSD and the resulting sonic impressions. It's likely you will hear distortion which is unfortunate for the wide spread usage of the ZROCK2.

Larry I'm sure glad you and your ex-wife were able to make and keep such sane decisions regarding the education of your children. I've never had children and yet I've had two decades with a wife who was the product of a divorce, and now have a wife whose father abandoned his wife and ten children (!!!) when my wife, the sixth child, was nine years old. I see how children can suffer, especially if one parent is not thinking clearly of their future and absent both physically and responsibly. Kudos to you both for being "right" and loving.

I just played around with some tuning on my system and let it settle and have discovered a new layer of dynamic contrast that the "Z Amigos" are dishing out, making the music "breathe" even more. If it gets better than this yeah I want to get there (thinking of you, "Anniversary" amps!) but man I can take my time, the sound is so enveloping! We are alive at the right time gentlemen!
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #128 - 01/18/18 at 18:20:31
 
Yes, my children's future was top priority and the least disruption to them. It has paid off.

Since I'm returning/(won't have one) my ZR2, I won't comment on it anymore.

However, I wanted to say in closing on it.....with a Preamplifier the ZR2 is good. I don't want anyone to take my scenario on it, negative in any way.
Plus, my regard for using 91, 92 or 93db @1 watt/1 meter Speaker's (my modified single cap Acoustic Zen Adagio's), no lower for me....and you can go lower with an ZMA and use JanZens.

Also,  the HR1's are 92.5db @1 watt/1 meter.

I'm just not part of the 95db+ @ 1 watt/1 meter crowd. Personal taste. I have had them in here and have been to Decware twice and even have heard the HR1's.    .....end of story.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #129 - 01/18/18 at 18:35:45
 
Stone, Did you get any feedback from Steve?
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #130 - 01/18/18 at 18:44:40
 
I only kid around about “close to alimony”  and count myself fortunate - 43yrs, 2 kids and 2 grandkids.  In reality, I’d let my system go before I’d let any of that go - and that is saying a lot.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #131 - 01/18/18 at 18:53:22
 
We know, we know. It's fun to kid around and these systems mean a lot to us. . . but family? Wins every time.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #132 - 01/18/18 at 20:04:50
 
Lon, sent a PM but I'll ask here.  Which RCAs go to the preamp and which to the amp?  Unpacked my ZROCK II this morning.
Mark
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #133 - 01/18/18 at 20:09:57
 
http://www.janszenaudio.com/product-page/za2-1a-active-standmount-with-finished-...

Edit to my #128 post/reply......it is JansZen.....not how I spelled it.  ;D
Steve, had this Gentlemen in at Decware, the/Designer/Owner with the model I threaded above for you/I believe....you can find out more about the JansZen Visit at Decware....in the ZMA Development Thread documentation.

Archie, calling Steve won't change how the ZDSD reacts DIRECT to the ZR2 at all input voltages. As I stated....with a Pre.....you will be just fine and dig it. Joman, corroborates my scenario with ZDSD in reply #114.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #134 - 01/18/18 at 20:23:29
 
Answered your PM Mark. Closest to the power cord will connect from the CSP3, the ones furthest from the power cord will go to the amplifier.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #135 - 01/18/18 at 20:57:56
 
Ha!  I asked Lon the same thing Mark....since you asked him...and he answered soon....I did not respond.

I asked the same thing I should say/over in the Development Thread.....and Lon responded...thanks again, Lon.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #136 - 01/18/18 at 21:27:42
 
http://www.janszenaudio.com/product-page/za2-1-monitor

....another correction/Edit to my #133 Reply...Steve had in the passive pair...not the NEW Active..... .

I swear, I will stay out of this Thread now!   Grin
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #137 - 01/18/18 at 22:08:15
 
You're welcome. I'm always glad to help with Decware when I can. We "idiots" have to stick together!
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #138 - 01/18/18 at 22:46:43
 
Well, I'm off and running with my ZROCK II. I listened to Laura Nyro's "Eli And The Thirteenth Confession"...Steve Hoffman's remastered version.  Many of Nyro's albums were poorly mixed/mastered and have always sounded lean and brittle at times. I listened with what I'm reading is EQ A.  I had the knob turned about 3/4 of the way.  Added a nice bottom and some badly needed warmth...not perfect but better.  Also I should say, the journey the ZROCK took in freezing weather will take sometime to recover from.  I'm not quite sure where I should have the CSP3 voltage or volume set...currently the voltage is about 8 clicks, the volume/gain a little more than halfway up.  Since I usually had it all the way up and adjusted the volume with the Monoblocks, this is making me totally readjust how I do things...experimenting.

The second CD is a CD from Keith Jarrett's Live at the Blue Note box.  I've not had any complaints about this recording so it's not surprising that I'm only using a little of EQ A for it...adds a little deeper bottom.  So Far So Good... Mark.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #139 - 01/18/18 at 23:07:01
 
Great Mark. You're going to find it gets more "transparent" as it seasons and warms up.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #140 - 01/18/18 at 23:20:32
 
Yes, I know from experience with past new Decware Gear and NOS tubes that things get better with time. I'm trying to resist rolling tubes for a while in the ZROCK but I have a lot of different types of 12AU7s that I experimented with in the ZP3.  In the ZP3 I settled on a RCA Triple Mica Black Plate 5814 and haven't taken it out for a year or two.

It's hard to believe that this Keith Jarrett CD could sound any better Smiley.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #141 - 01/18/18 at 23:35:03
 
I couldn’t wait! So when I got home I ran my ZDSD direct into the UFO2. I wanted to see if I would get distortion after the fix last night.  No distortion.

But let me qualify that.  The ZDSD was set at -16dB.  Going direct I had to back the setting down on ZR2 because the the bass was too much.  It certainly made a difference at low level but as I increased the volume, at a certain point I had to by pass the ZR2 because it really wasn’t needed and I could tell I was pushing it.  This reminded me of the effect of a Loudness Button only nowhere near as good.  (Yes I remember those)  The volume knob on the UFO2 never got past 1/2 way.

I then went back to running it between the CSP3 and UFO2 and had to bump up the ZR2 settings.  Much better in that configuration the volume knob on the UFO2 was now close 80%.  I could utilize the full range of the volume - more usable volume.  I never felt that that I had to bypass.

In either case the most interesting fact was the effect on the mids and highs.  I can play at what seems to be a lower volume with a presence of instruments and vocals that was hard to achieve at higher volume.  So I decided to check the sound level with the meter on my phone.  It ranged between 73db and 86db, averaging about 80db.  But it didn’t seem that loud.  So I bumbed the volume on the CSP3 a notch.  Now I was between 75dB - 88db, averaging about 82dB - too loud in an untreated room.  

For example cymbals that were barely heard at low volume without the ZR2 now sounded like they would at high volume - even better, bigger, lovely decay, all missing before and there was no fatigue effect.

So does this mean that you can run the ZR2 between the ZDSD and an amplifier?  I don’t know.  I would have to spend more time with it in that configuration and work with the gain settings.  Does that mean that you must have a preamp with the ZR2.  I don’t know (not much help is this?). My take on it is that the ZR2 between the CSP3  and UFO2 gives more usable gain/volume/density potential.  Personally I prefer that.  And the result is better with the CSP3 in place in my system, unless of course it’s to try the ZTPRE (damnit Lon).
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #142 - 01/18/18 at 23:38:22
 
Quote:
Archie, calling Steve won't change how the ZDSD reacts DIRECT to the ZR2 at all input voltages. As I stated....with a Pre.....you will be just fine and dig it. Joman, corroborates my scenario with ZDSD in reply #114.



Of course, but I'm wondering if he is aware of this issue with the ZDSD?  Or if he has any suggestions?
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #143 - 01/19/18 at 02:26:28
 
Hey Archie,

I’ve talked to Steve about my experience so he is aware.  Whether or not he should do anything about it is up to him, but taking into consideration what the output stage is all about and what it does, I’m inclined to say no.  What makes the ZDSD so good is the high gain settings that can be utilized IF your components allow for the high gain settings (see the instructions on the ZDSD)

In many ways my thoughts and experience is very similar to stones with one difference, my ZR2 had a boo-boo which was easily corrected.  Fundamentally I don’t think that changes much even though it definitely contributed to the problem. I would not use the high gain settings (-18dB and -20dB) with the ZR2 combined with the ZDSD.  Even now a poor recording could really be problematic at those settings.  Setting it at -16dB or lower will be much better with a ZR2.

Even with all those factors the ZR2 does help at lower volume levels ZDSD direct to amplifier but, I feel that it’s extremely good when utilized with a preamp, in my case the CSP3.

Like stone I had an ARC LS16 and an LS25.  Mine were both MKII versions with the 6H30 tubes.  Did not care for them.  Prefer the versions that use the 6922.  At the time I had a Lavry DA-11 DAC that had a volume control and like stone I prefered the DAC direct.

Eventually I got a CSP3 and now I prefer it in the system with or without the ZR2.  So both stone and I are running the ZDSD and I prefer it the way it is regardless of whether we are or are not using preamps, regardless of whether we are or are not using the ZR2.  



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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #144 - 01/19/18 at 18:15:53
 
I'm really shaking things up today and put the Taboo Mk IV in the place of the Torii Mk III. Wildly different sound, both quite good. If I use the ZROCK2 more heavily on the EQ than I ever have I can get almost perfect sound in the same speaker positioning. I'll reposition speakers next. . . but I am pretty sure I could really use a treble cut circuit here. . . anyway I'm going to leave the Taboo Mk IV in place for a while and play with it. There's enough volume for me and really vivid sound, lacking the body that the Torii gives, but delivering in nuance and presence.

I have my Taboo Mk III in place so I can listen to headphones over the weekend without having to mess about removing speaker cables.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #145 - 01/19/18 at 21:17:33
 
Found that if I push the speakers back about 18" closer to the back wall than I normally do and like, I can get the right frequency balance and still leave myself a little wiggle room on the EQ A of the ZROCK2. I sacrifice a bit of depth to the soundstage, but soundstage doesn't seem to mean to me as much as it does to others. Don't get one listening to live music and so it seems artificial to me and it's improvement is not one of my pursuits. If I get the tonal balance right and dynamics music seems "real" to me, like that performed, and I'm happy.

I'm really happy with the sound of the Taboo Mk IV and really have to believe it's the UFO transformers floating my boat highest. I changed out a cryo'd 6N1P for an Amperex ECC189 and that was the icing that made it all come together. I am getting plenty of power for both my music reproduction and enough for DVR and Blu-ray playback. I'm going to put the Torii aside for a spell, this is the first time that I've been able to do that, every other amp I've tried in its place has led me to restore the Torii as the heartbeat of the system.

I loved the Taboo Mk IV before, and now with the ZROCK2 it's even more versatile and even more involving. I have the ZTPRE outputs at about half way and the ZBIT about 7/8s up. Still leaves me plenty of room to tailor to recordings with gain and EQ. Ideally I'd like a treble cut circuit on this amp but I'm not sure it can be done. Don't need one for headphone use and if this goes back to a headphone amp I'm all set there.

This makes me confident that when the 25th Anniversary amps are released a bridged pair would give me plenty of power and excellent sound. And it's possible that a set of 25th Anniversary SE84UFO3s would work just as well too. . . Steve already told me I would want a pair, and he's right. . . if its power were just enough I think I'd have an amazing system!

Life is good when you love music. . . Decware has the stairway to heaven.
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #146 - 01/21/18 at 14:24:08
 
UPDATE - I recieved the Siemens E80CC/6085 and rolled it.  The differences were immediate.  The 6085 is more forward (not objectionable) and dense in its presentation.  Soundstage looses depth.  Still has very nice detail and speed.  May be just right for some.

The Siemens ECC82 Nickel Plate has way more depth, air (not airy) and more dynamic - faster.  The instruments and vocals seem to emanate from a blacker background with nuances and layers that I have yet to have equaled.  Things seem to be more “there” more 3-D - live.  This is my tube of choice for the ZR2.

Still have to work on the gain structure but for now:
ZDSD @ -16dB
CSP3 (stepped attenuator) - output @ 5, Hphone Cal @ 8, Volume @ 10, ranges from 8 - 11
UFO2 (Vol. Pot) - 80%

I chose the vol. pot over the stepped on the UFO2 because it gives me the ability for a more finite volume adjustment.  So between the CSP3 and the UFO2 I can get it just right.  Sound is a little hot at times (depends on the quality of the recording) but the system is still in the untreated room.  In about a month or two that will change.

Strongly recommend the ZR2 especially if you have the UFO or UFO2.  Some of my friends and cousins have had a listen and the IMMEDIATE response in all cases has been WOE or HO-ly, no longer WOW - pretty universal response so far so I know I’m not imagining things.
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mark58
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #147 - 01/23/18 at 11:36:49
 
mmm...looking here, I'm behind several posts.  I had a scare this morning.  I fired up the second system and wanted to play an Ellington album off Spotify to see if a Vinyl purchase of it is warranted.  So all I hear is the right channel, Damn.  The first thing is checking to see if all gear is actually turned on.  More than once I've only turned on one of the two switches on the monos with this result...but this was different, there was very faint music from the left.  Next I thought, well maybe it's the Omega speakers I've been using for a few days...so I put the Zu Audio "Souls" back in...No Change.  Then I switch sources to the Jolida CD Player...no change.  Then I think...ZROCK?  Well the tube is glowing.  Next I take the ZROCK out...and there is sound from both speakers as normal.  So now I'm having visions of a trip back to Illinois. Anyway, the only thing I can check is the tube so I fish a RCA Clear Top out of the closet and pop it in and hook the ZROCK back into the system.  Glorious sound...in both channels Smiley. So a sigh of relief, it's only a bad tube.  So I have started rolling tubes in the ZROCK much sooner than expected.  I'll clean the pins on the tube Steve sent and try it again with the next listening session but I suspect it's not a bad contact.  So maybe I'll have Sarah put a new tube in with the Black Chicken Head knob I want her to send.  Mark.

PS... I have to admit I'm not wild about having the ZROCK on 24/7.  Could that have something to do with the tube failure?  Also is it unusual for only one channel of the tube to go bad?

PSS...would it be harmful to any of the gear to unplug my RSA Haley Power Conditioner so all gear is off when not in use?  The CD player is in standby mode and ZROCK always on.  I unplug the power conditioners from the wall plug when there's thunder.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Lon
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #148 - 01/23/18 at 13:44:54
 
Hey Mark,
I've had tubes go wrong in one channel, so it's not entirely unusual.

Honestly there should be no harm in leaving the ZROCK2 on constantly. The tube is not being driven hard at all. That said there also I don't think would be any problem shutting all the equipment off with the power center.

Sorry about that tube. Tube-rolling is fun in the ZROCK2. I didn't get too far and decided that Steve's choice for me and my system was more than good enough and I've left it in place. But now that I'm running the Taboo rather than the Torii I may roll some available choices again. Right now I'm just enjoying the sound.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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Archie
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Re: ZROCK2
Reply #149 - 01/23/18 at 18:09:22
 
I asked Steve about turning the ZR2 off and he really thinks it's better left on.  The tube gets just a fraction of power and should last many tens of thousands of hours.  He thinks having the ZR2 fully warmed up at all times is an advantage.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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