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Speaker Upgrade Options (Read 13207 times)
Barnharty
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Speaker Upgrade Options
11/29/16 at 19:25:15
 
I got a Decware Zen UFO Select about a month ago and I'm loving it. I was thinking about upgrading speakers in the near future and wanted to see if I could get any advice or suggestions here.

I currently have 1980 Klipsch Cornwall I's. They sound really good to me and in my smallish apartment, they are sensitive enough that I don't ever have to turn my Zen up past 9:00 for full volume.

The upgrade options I'm considering are
1.) Doing a full Crites recap and crossover upgrade, new A-55G Midrange, and the CT120 Tweeter. The total would be about $750.
2.) Decware speakers under $2,000
3.) Omega Speakers under $2,000

I have no idea what comparable Decware or Omega speakers would sound like against Cornwalls, but I've read some rave reviews. Let me know what you think.

Thanks  :)
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #1 - 11/29/16 at 19:50:33
 
Old Klipsch are fun, but they are (IMHO) loud and unrefined. Great for filling a room with music, but I think Decware or Omega speakers would get you more detail, imaging, and all the fun stuff that your UFO is good at. You really have no idea what you're missing.  

Steve mentioned something about a new speaker setup that I think is Omega based....so maybe the perfect speaker for your future setup! Smiley

Also, my obligatory post - please consider room treatment.  ;)  
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SonicSeeker
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #2 - 11/29/16 at 20:02:43
 

The crites upgrade would be a good idea on a pair of that vintage.
A bigger midrange horn helps a great deal also.
Lonely Ravens recommendations are very good also.
Depends on what you want to spend and what you wish to gain.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #3 - 11/29/16 at 20:29:15
 
Quote:
Depends on what you want to spend and what you wish to gain.


I should have stipulated that - I have a friend who's only goal is to make everything sound like he's in the 5th row at a concert. Huge, loud, room filling sound with your ears ringing at the end. I don't get it...no, that's not true, I do...he loves concerts, and wants to create that at home. Whereas I'm trying to milk the essence of every recording, every detail, all while maintaining that emotional engagement.

His goal is way easier than mine. LOL
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Barnharty
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #4 - 11/29/16 at 20:38:11
 
I think the thing that struck me, that made me instantly like the Cornwalls was how much it made music sound like i was listening to it live. I auditioned a bunch of other speakers before I got them and all of those speakers sounded dull in comparison. I listened to Dali, KEF, Ryan, Paradigm, and Rega speakers and to me they didn't sound nearly as good as the Cornwalls. The music sounded more like I was listening to a recording. With the Cornwalls it sounds more natural, like the music is happening in the room as I'm listening.

So I guess I'm probably in the same boat as your friend. Though, I don't really like to listen loud, I probably prefer that sound signature that makes people either love or hate the old Klipsch speakers.
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ZENCDUSER
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #5 - 11/29/16 at 21:56:45
 
My Crites upgrade (complete Crites ready-built crossovers, titanium tweeter diaphragms and Crites polymer midrange diaphragms) for Forte I speakers was about $380.00 shipped.  I elected to use 16 gauge Jupiter solid core copper wire (cotton covered) instead of the standard PVC coated stranded copper supplied with the crossovers.  I raised them about 6"-7" higher by placing them on quart-size metal paint cans (purchased from HD and filled with aquarium gravel) to get the midrange/tweeters at ear level.  Utterly beautiful music with an SET amp: midrange magic, smooth, balanced, clear extended treble, articulate, deep bass (galore!), dynamics (galore!), soundstage (width and depth) that exceeded a single-driver speaker I had.  No etch, no harshness.
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Dave1210
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #6 - 11/30/16 at 00:40:21
 
I thought the Volti Vittora speakers were essentially highly upgraded Klipsch Horn speakers.  These were a favorite speaker by many, including many of the CDAP members, at Axpona a few years back.  There is definitely something special about these highly dynamic speakers.  

Barnharty...if you like your Klipsch speakers, I'm not surprised you didn't like Dali, Ryan, KEF, etc.  In comparison to your Klipsch, those speakers are low efficiency, polite, hi-fi (a.k.a. boring in some circles).    

Another option to consider is Zu.  Zu speakers are also highly efficient, dynamic/present, and while some would say they are party speakers (and yes, they do this well), they are also arguably more refined than your typical party speaker.  So, it might give you the best of both worlds.  Zu offers one of the best trial periods in the industry, so you could give them a listen in your room with minimal risk.      
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maddog07
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #7 - 11/30/16 at 03:25:42
 
I would strongly suggest you audition some crossover-less, high-efficiency, wide band, single driver speakers before you make your final decision.  I have owned nearly every “type” of speaker ever made over the last 40 years.  To include many types of ribbons; Magnepan, Apogee, Carver, Newform Research.  The list of conventional multi-driver, dynamic speakers I’ve owned is too long to list, but to name just a few; B&W 803’s, Wilson Watt/Puppy, Legacy Focus, Acarian Alon IV, Mirage M3si, and the list goes on and on.  Each speaker excelled in some ways, but always seemed to leave me wanting for “something” .  Ribbons were my favorite for a long time (love that “boxless” sound).  Then along came the latest curvi-linear, micro-perf stator electrostats from Martin Logan.  Those won out over the ribbons I had owned for nearly a decade.  Then I went to RMAF a few years in a row starting back in 2010 and there I was “exposed” to the high-efficiency, crossover-less, wide banders, driven by flea-watt tubes, and I was completely smitten.  Maybe “possessed” would be a better word.  I just “had” to obtain that sound.  All the models I saw/heard at RMAF had “second mortgage” range price tags.  And I only go so far down that path of lunacy.  The 80/20 rule has never been more prominent than it is in high-end audio.  I would argue, especially nowadays, that it might be more like 90/10.  Anyway, my quest led me to Decware and to a whole world of “not in the mainstream” single-driver, high-efficiency, wide-band speakers, such as Omega, Tekton, Hawthorne, Decware speakers, etc.  If you’re into a little DIY, Audio Nirvana, Tang-band, some recent Dayton models and numerous others.  My first DIY’s were made with Audio Nirvana cast frame Alnico 12’s in a ported box – the results exceeded my expectations.  I still have them, but another experiment with these drivers, led me to my current reference, which is Audio Nirvana’s running full-range in an open baffle, augmented by Hawthorne Augie’s.  If there’s better sound (to my ears) I haven’t heard it yet.  I have a friend in my local pool of audio buddies, who recently stole a pair of Omega SUPER 3XRS’ off of our local Craigslist.  I guess somebody needed some money or something.  Anyway, he brought them over to my place, and other than quantity of bass, and absolute bass extension, and max SPL, these little Omega’s sound more like my huge Trio baffles than not to my ears.  The micro dynamics, resolution, speed and tone are all there.
Of course everybody hears “differently”, as hearing is at least 50% perception.  And everybody’s room, equipment and preferences are different.  But I would recommend you giving one of these types of speakers a listen before you spend a load updating your Klipsch's.  
I still have my vintage Klipsch Chorus’ and my Martin Logan Vista’s.  I would not have believed it, if I had not heard it with my own ears, but the crossover-less, wide-banders are faster, more resolute, more dynamic that the electrostats – I kid you not.  And the ole Klipsch’s aren’t even in the same league for rez and dynamics, despite being 101db efficient.  I suspect the caps in the Klipsch are in need of replacement ultimately.  But I really think “no crossover” is at least 50% responsible for the incredible “life” of the single driver, wide-banders.  The next best thing to crossover-less, wide-banders would be something like the Decware 945 which run the 7” driver wide-open and only one Clarity Cap on the ribbon tweeter ( I have a pair of 945’s too ).  

The “thing” with these types of speakers, is that you have to get the “right” amp paired with them.  I cannot stress enough that “Synergy” between amp and speaker is more important here with these types of speakers than with any other regular, multi-driver speaker with a crossover.  But when you get it right - there is magic!  My Decware Torii sounds incredible with every wide-band, crossover-less speaker I’ve ever hooked it to so far, which is 3 different Audio Nivana models, Decware HDT’s, 945’s, HR-1’s and ERRs and the Omega 3XRS’.  I have another buddy with Avantgarde Duo's.  And after I brought my Torii to his place and hooked it to the Duo's - he sold his BAT mono's and bought a Torii - I'm not joking.  The Duo's do sound good with the Torii, but they are not as fast or resolute as the single-driver, wide-banders.  In fact the Duo's are "warm" sounding to my ears when driven by the Torii, but my buddy loves the sound of this combo.  He has been happy with this pairing longer than any other in his life so far.
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....
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Palomino
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #8 - 12/02/16 at 18:01:56
 
I have not spent a lot of time with Klipsch and certainly not heard modded ones, but my opinion is similar to what Raven said.

I really want to hear Omega and have been interested in them for a long time, but have never heard them.

I am currently in the maddog camp of crossoverless, open baffle.  I use the same bass speakers he does (augies) but the Tang Band 1808 full rangers up top.  My gut tells me the nirvanas are better.  I will have a hard time migrating away from a bi-amped approach.  Bass is just too good.  These are my 7th set of speakers.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #9 - 12/02/16 at 19:08:19
 
Quote:
I have not spent a lot of time with Klipsch and certainly not heard modded ones, but my opinion is similar to what Raven said.


That said, what ZENCDUSER said reminds me of what ProgRobs horn sounded like after all his tweaks. Aren't those similar to what the old K-speakers used? Makes me wonder if we might actually like modernized vintage Klipsch. Hell, these Maggies I'm listening to certainly gives me food for thought...but I'd dump them in a second for a more modern version. Maybe the Klipsch can evolve into something besides "party speakers" (I love that, because it fits).

I have Zu Omens, and I don't much care for them. They do have a sound that somewhat reminds me of the old Klipsch, but a more refined big/loud.
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DBC
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #10 - 12/02/16 at 20:36:38
 
I ran my Zen Select then Super Zen and now UFO with my 12 year old Klipsch RF-7's. They can put out quite a bit of sound with 2 watts but still needed a sub for my taste.

Purchased the Omega Super Alnico Monitors and there is no comparison when listening at Moderate volumes. The Omegas produce a Big Sound at Moderate volume. So much more detail / space / extension and they seem to play just as loud as the RF-7's when you crank the UFO.

With the Omegas I use Twin 15" LoFOB's (Low Frequency Open Baffle) to supplement the low end. The LoFOB's never overload the room.

Personally I've never had a so called "Full Range" speaker do everything right. I'm sticking with Monitors and supplementing the low end as required.

My Peachtree Integrated Amp (220 watts / channel) with the Klipsch RF-7's are a rock concert. So when I'm in that mood it's nice having that combo. I find with the RF-7's to get a Big Sound you have to play them Loud.

Before purchasing the Omega Monitors I played the RF-7's Loud 90 % of the time. Now that I have the Omega's, listening at lower volumes is so much more engaging compared to the Klipsch. So Big Sound is not always about Loud.


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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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Palomino
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #11 - 12/02/16 at 20:41:34
 
I have also had good luck with my DIY version of the Decware Monoliths with OB "subs" (basically just left my augies running).  

I migrated back to the single driver for more detail, but the monos did not lack in the imaging/room filling department.

I really need to hear some Omegas.
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ZENCDUSER
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #12 - 12/03/16 at 03:35:20
 
Lonely Raven,
Glad you heard what I hear!  Crites doesn't really mod them...just updates old and, some may say, sonically and electrically inferior components (i.e. mylar caps)

Barnharty,
The Forte I and Cornwall I are very different as you know, and the upgrade path appears slightly more expensive. Never owned Cornwalls.  In the past I've owned an old SE84 and an older original SE84 Select with both stock and updated Forte I speakers.  Simply no comparison with the upgrades.   And I've also owned Hornshoppe and Omega speakers...but not with Decware .  I believe one of the major factors with the older model Klipschs (besides old inferior components) is listening distance.  There is a certain amount of horn blending that occurs...or doesnt occur...based on the listening distance. Single drivers obviously eliminate that issue

Also, my Oiled Oak excellent condition Oiled Oak Fortes were locally purchased for $400 Grin  
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Barnharty
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #13 - 12/03/16 at 04:41:59
 
Sorry I'm late to reply, something came up. I really appreciate everyones feedback!

So, I think I'd still really like to hear some crossoverless, single driver speakers, but all the ones I want to hear aren't sold in any shops. Shocked

I think what I'll most likely do is upgrade the caps/crossover in the Cornwalls and see how it affects the sound. And I'll probably just enjoy that for a while and then perhaps pick up a pair of Omega Monitors just to try if they don't become my main speakers, it'll be nice to have a smaller speaker option for late night listening.

MadDog: Thanks for all the info, you've opened my eyes to a whole diy speaker world I never knew existed. I'll probably get into it eventually!

ZenCDUSER: Do you still use the upgraded Fortes as your main speakers? I read a bit about horn blending somewhere a while ago, I think it said the optimal listening distance for Cornwalls was 12 or so feet. I might be mistaken. Do you know much about that? I've tried near and far setups and I usually tend to be a little closer in. Right now my listening spot is about equal to the distance between the left and right speaker, which is about 7 feet, forming a triangle.

I was thinking the further back I go, the more I might hear room reflections. What do you think?
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #14 - 12/03/16 at 04:47:45
 

Quote:
I was thinking the further back I go, the more I might hear room reflections. What do you think?


You are *always* hearing room reflections.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPYt10zrclQ&t=2s

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Barnharty
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #15 - 12/03/16 at 05:00:59
 
I know, but I was thinking the farther back I am, I'll be hearing more reflections than direct sound.
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DBC
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #16 - 12/03/16 at 16:10:18
 
Quote:
Pal wrote:

I have also had good luck with my DIY version of the Decware Monoliths with OB "subs" (basically just left my augies running).  

I migrated back to the single driver for more detail, but the monos did not lack in the imaging/room filling department.

I really need to hear some Omegas


If you get a chance, listen to the Omega Monitors. Their Towers are for the most part the same drivers in larger enclosures designed to reinforce the Low End.

I spoke to several people who have heard and or owned both Monitors & Towers before I purchased my Alnico Monitors. All indicated to me that the Towers had more Bass output but not the Bass Quality of the Monitors. The Monitors produce clean, crisp, accurate Bass that does not color the upper frequencies.
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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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DBC
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Re: Speaker Upgrade Options
Reply #17 - 12/04/16 at 19:30:50
 
Quote:
Barnharty wrote:

The upgrade options I'm considering are
1.) Doing a full Crites recap and crossover upgrade, new A-55G Midrange, and the CT120 Tweeter. The total would be about $750.
2.) Decware speakers under $2,000
3.) Omega Speakers under $2,000


Since I have Klipsch RF-7's and Omega Alnico Monitors, I decided to move the Klipsch into my main room for a Rock Concert evening. My room measures 16' wide by 22' long with open concept and vaulted ceiling (a good size). The system in this room usually consists of:

Oppo BDP-105 player to Decware UFO to Omega Anico Monitors to twin 15" Low Frequency Open Baffles.

For grins, first thing I did was replace the UFO with a Peachtree 220SE digital amp with 220 watts per channel. This amp with the Omega's was not a good match. Not sure why, med volume or max volume and none of the UFO / Omega magic.

Next moved the RF-7's in paired with the Peachtree. 9 O'clock on the volume dial and averaging 100 db at the listening position. Room was full of sound, lots of Bass but not as articulate & tight as the UFO / Omega combo. Playing Motorhead 25 & Alive Boneshaker DVD, It was fun.

Moved to Joan Jett & The Blackhearts Live DVD. Have listened to this many times with the UFO / Omega combo and something was lacking with the Peachtree / Klipsch combo. Instead of being in the concert I was listening to a recording???

One thing I noticed with the Peachtree / RF-7 combo is at lower volumes the soundstage quickly collapses down and in between the speakers. Seems this combo sounds best Loud.

OK, I pull the Peachtree and wire the UFO up to the RF-7's and try Joan Jett again. Now my toes are tapping once again. Getting more detail from the UFO. At max volume getting and average of 93 db with peaks to 97 db. Not as loud as with the Peachtree but plenty loud and sounds a lot better on this disk.

I move to Grand Funk Railroad CD Caught In The Act. The UFO / Klipsch combo really sounds good. This was my only speaker for 12 years. It does a lot of things right. Would still be my main speaker had I not ordered the Omega Alnico's on a whim.

OK, pull the Klipsch RF-7's and Back to the UFO / Omega combo playing Grand Funk. Omega's are playing at the same 93 average db as the Klipsch. WOW, hard to believe given the size and driver disadvantage. More Air, Great Guitar, Tight Bass. During drum solo I hear the drum strikes echo off the Concert Hall walls. Crowd erupts and feels like they are in the room with me. I am completely unaware of the walls in my listening room.

There is something about the UFO / Omega combo that just pulls out all the detail, all the separation, all the guitar decay, each bass note and the recording space ambiance. I know there are a lot of good DAC's on the market, but if the Oppo is leaving anything on the disk, it can't be a lot.

These were not stellar recordings and can sound congested or simply flat on some systems. The UFO / Omega Alnico combo somehow convey more than just sound but rather the Emotion Of Every Performance.
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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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