So, yes, I was so depressed and saddened that my first audiophile tube amp didn't work with my favorite speakers, that I came close to selling it on eBay. I auditioned many of the amps at DecFest last October and based on many factors, I decided the Mk IV was for me, so I knew what this amp was capable of, but I couldn't even get it to sound as good as my old integrated, solid-state amp and basically, it sounded so bad, it was virtually unlistenable. Thus, my quest for seeking Zen began...

Before going forward, the gear:

Amplification
Power:  Torii Mk IV with standard beeswax caps, stepped attenuator, and Tung Sol KT66's
Phono Stage:  Sutherland 20/20 (separate power supplies feeding dual mono blocks of capacitors for pure DC)

Vinyl Source
Thorens 150 custom built by Dave Archambault of Vinyl Nirvana
-SME M2-9 Tonearm
-Dynavector 17D3 Karat MC cartridge
-Origin Live DC200 motor (their top motor picked for it's quietness and less vibration)
-Orign Live Upgrade Transformer (lowered impedance enabling higher instantaneous current to be delivered)
-Origin Live Ultra Motor Controller (faster functioning circuit, stricter regulation, and lower noise)

Turntable feeds into Sutherland phono stage
Phono stage feeds into Torii channel A

CD/Digital Media File
Decware Zen CD/Network Player ZCD240

CD/Media player feeds directly into Torii channel B

Speakers
Klipsch KG4's 1987 (sealed acoustic suspension, rated at 38-20k Hz, 94dB)
-dual 8" woofers
-exponential horn tweeter
-12" passive radiator (rear facing)
-phenolic horn drivers replaced with Bob Crites' titanium drivers
-crossover networks replaced with Bob Crites' hand-built networks

Unlistenable? Yes. The problem:  upper midrange glare (referred to as UMG going forward). This UMG was so pronounced that when it hit certain frequencies, you had to jump off the couch and turn it down or off, or play another recording due to the pain to your eardrums. Also, there was virtually no bass or warmth. Instead of the silky smooth highs and authoritative bass that I was use to, I now had the opposite.

I called Steve and he thought it sounded like a bad tube in either the ZP3 phono stage or the ZStage pre-amp (at the time, I owned both those pieces as well as the ZMC moving coil transformer). I tried swapping tubes around that Steve quickly sent me to try out, but to no avail. So, I packed up the phono chain and shipped it back to have an analysis on all the pieces, but they checked out fine as I expected. However, while the ZP3 chain was being re-inspected, I purchased a Sutherland 20/20 dual mono phono stage and things got a "little" bit better regarding the UMG - I attribute this to the Sutherland phono stage having both individual gain settings and load impedance settings that could be more accurately dialed into the moving coil cartridge I was using which has some unusual requirements.

Most of the UMG was still there and the speakers still sounded anemic - bass was only present on certain frequencies. I looked at the "gauge-o-meter" of different tube characteristics on the Torii Mk IV webpage and decided that I would try a set of 6L6's as they were listed as having the wettest sound and loosest bass. So, I purchased a matched quad of JJ 6L6's from the Tube Depot. Upon the initial listen, I was hopeful - the bass had returned and the top end sparkled, opened up, breathed, and the sound stage expanded. However, when I played my songs to test UMG, it was still there! Perhaps a tad not as intense, but it still hurt your ears and made you cringe every time those certain frequencies came about in the song.

I read quite a few informative and knowledgable posts in the Decware Forums by a well respected forum member named "Will" and figured he'd be the guy to ask about seeing if different tubes, other than output, could address my UMG problem. I contacted Will and he has and continues to be very supportive in educating me in all areas of tone improvement. Before he started advising me in tube rolling in the areas of rectifiers, vr's, and input stage, he advised experimenting with speaker placement. Long story short, I was able to vastly improve the Torii's interaction with the Klipsch speakers by incorporating speaker positioning and different tubes. By then, the best sound I could get, and also taming down but not eliminating the UMG, was with the following tube set with my 6L6's:

Zaerix PCC88 (input)
Sovtek Cryoset 5AR4/GZ34 (rectifiers)
Sylvania OB3A [40's] (output vr's)
75C1 [Brit NOS] (input vr's)

This combo of tubes relaxed the "in your face" harshness of the Mk IV, cleared out the density, and reduced the UMG, but it was still there and still fatigued the listening session. However, I must say that this combo of tubes really brought out the best in the Mk IV as far as tonal balance, sound stage, air, and inner detail.

Then earlier this week, I was reading some articles in the Decware Forums that were returned when I searched on "Klipsch" -- there were two postings in particular that pointed me to my Rx for the UMG dys-synergy between the Mk IV and the Klipsch's:

RW82
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some ObservationsReply #96 - 05/22/15 at 07:21:19

Lord Soth
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some ObservationsReply #59 - 08/20/14 at 19:08:56

After reading these postings and researching EL34's on the net, including the following review:

EL34-family Tube Comparison by Tim Smith
http://wallofsound.ca/audioreviews/tubes/el34-tube-comparison-with-tubes-supplie...

I decided I would have to try a set of EL34's, but which ones to try first? Based on the above article, I was torn between the new production Mullards and Tung Sol's. I couldn't make up my mind so I just went to bed. I had a dream that night that I pulled the EL34's out of my mid-90's Marshall JCM-900 SLX 100 watt head. I woke up the next morning pleased with my prophetic dream. That evening, I pulled out four Sovtek EL34G+ tubes from the Marshall head, put them in the Torii, and played some tracks from albums that exhibited lots of UMG. The result? Drum roll please...

Magic wand! UMG completely eliminated in problematic passages on test tracks. Everything fell into place - complete tonal balance from top to bottom. New inner-detail that had not been there before - was this the Hazen Grid effect that I was experiencing for the first time??? I don't know, but I'm loving it! My Torii as finally opened up the gates to "Zen"!

Some examples of what I was hearing (attenuator at step #15):

Vocal presence:  Rhino, 2009 pressing, Joni Mitchell: Court and Spark, title track: while this track is closely mic'ed, I have never heard her throat resonance and breathiness so pronounced and detailed, and when she sings, "I could complete you", she holds on to the "you" for a long time, it was so holographic, it made my neck hairs rise.

Electric guitar bass test for high and low note articulation:  Columbia, 1968, first pressing stereo, Simon & Garfunkel: Bookends, Punky's Dilemma:  soft acoustic guitar intro with Paul's solo voice, then enters the bass guitar doing a walk. Solid chest feel and clear articulation throughout the song hearing all the runs up and down the neck without any notes getting garbled. (I know what you're thinking, but you have to remember that the loose bass tendency of EL34's gets normalized by the tight, almost dry bass of the Klipsch's sealed acoustic suspension.)

Fore/Aft sound stage test:  Decca, 1969, first [US] pressing stereo , The Who: Tommy, Amazing Journey/Sparks:  Keith Moon's drums appear about five feet off the ground and most importantly, about 10 - 15 feet behind the speakers/voices. [Note:  this sort of depth does not exist in the later MCA pressings, only the original Track (UK) & Decca (US).]

This post is already way too long, so I'll stop here, but you get the idea. I demoed many tracks late into the night with my new found "Zen" and they all passed the tests that I was throwing at it, and more importantly, without any UMG! I finally had the "Decware Zen" experience I had at DecFest last October for the first time with my Torii. It has been a long, frustrating, and at times, depressing journey. But now that the UMG has been removed by the EL34's and they have the correct synergy with my Klipsch's, I can enjoy tube rolling now as an exercise to "better" or "change" my listening experience rather than trying to resolve a problem. This is huge.

I was so excited about this, I called Steve the next day to personally tell him that the mystery of the UMG had finally been resolved. Steve also pointed out that a better quality EL34 may or may not necessarily sound better. That was a good reminder because of the complexity of all the elements that go into making good synergy amongst tubes affecting other tubes when just one thing changes. In my case, it's an even more sensitive issue as speakers with horns react very differently to an amp of this caliber. Steve, also pointed out it was a good thing that I first experimented with the cheap Russian EL34's out of my guitar amp because if I had purchased a higher quality set and they didn't alleviate the UMG problem, chances are I would have never tried a cheaper set -- and he's right

I have posted a link to this post in the Torii Mk IV Support Forums under the title:  "How to  Remedy Upper Midrange Glare Using Horn Speakers" to hopefully spare someone else from going through the agonizing fretting and worrying I've been through these past five months. I'm not naive enough to think that all UMG problems with horns can be resolved with EL34's, but I do think the change in sound was dramatic enough to at least better the situation. You have to remember, in my case, not only did the EL34's remedy the UMG, but it brought out the "Zen" in the Torii and took it to new levels that I'd never experience before.

In closing I would like to thank forum members, RW82 and Lord Soth, who put me on the right track inspiring me to try EL34's and hinting that the EL34's are a good match with Klipsch horns -- and boy were they right!

And a big thank you goes to forum member, Will, who has taken the time via personal messages and even a telephone call to educate me about room acoustics, tube types, and great guidance regarding tube rolling. Just as important, he made me realize that an amp of this caliber can't be just a plug-n-play device like I've been used to with my off-the-shelf tranny amps. The Torii is so damn quick, powerful, resolving, and dynamic, not to mention that your speakers become part of its circuit, you have to do some homework to find the tube set that is optimal for the speakers connected to it.

This forum has some very knowledgeable and generous folks who make this hobby even more rewarding. I'm hoping to be at DecFest again this fall, work allowing, and hope to meet some more of you in person.

Happy listening and may the "Zen" be with you!

Cheers!

Jimmy

PS:  I'm open to EL34 suggestions as well as KT77's as I've read they're part of the EL34 family (alas, I'd loose the Hazen Grid effect with the 77's, but you never know

LOL Matchstikman! And yes, this one truly goes to 11! This is the amp that Marshall used Nigel to advertise in music magazines. The JCM 900 SLX has two gain stages - 1st stage dial goes from 1 - 10, 2nd stage dial goes from 11 - 20. In the magazine ads, Nigel's quote is "These go up to 20. That's 9 better, iddn'it?"

Yeah, it cracks me up I'm using cheap tubes out of a metal crunching amp that are known for their easy break up and "good" distortion in an audiophile hi-fi amp... LOL! Rock on Torii!!!

Jimmy, I'm about to go to bed so this will be short.  I have a Torii MK IV, ZP3, CSP3, Rega RP 6 TT with Exact Cart and Decware/Turning Point HR-1 speakers in my main system.  I prefer EL-34s as well.  I use RFT made EL-34s, mine are branded Siemens but they come with several different labels.  Just enter RFT Siemens El 34 in ebay and you'll get plenty of hits.  The link below is to a German seller with good feedback...his listing says best offer so I guess you could get them cheaper.  These look like mine.  They sound great. Mark.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-EL34-6CA7-power-tubes-SIEMENS-o-getter-NOS-MATCHED-EL...

I was using TAD KT-66 tubes in my Torii for a year and a half and it is nearing time to replace them. At the suggestion of a few on the board here I tried some Russian 6P3S-E tubes, first ordered a quad from Russia and while waiting for them found that cryoset.com was carrying the same tubes cryo'd for the same price and ordered a quad.

I tried them for a while and they sounded great but the bass and lower midrange just weren't there. So I alternated them for quite some time with the TAD and finally, after perhaps a few hundred hours I forgot about tonal problems and they are very good tubes indeed. Except for the long "burn-in" I'd heartily recommend them. . . . . I think the long "burn-in" is because they were cryo'd tubes.

Maddog07,

thanks - that is definitely informative and good to know. I actually ran into someone at DecFest last fall who told me that they knew someone that hooked a pair of Klipsch's to a Torii and all they heard was mostly "honk" in the midrange. I inquired and found out that it was a 3-way design, just as with your Chorus', but figured I'd be ok with the KG4's that are a 2-way design with the only horn being the tweeter. But what you have written makes sense, in that I was getting "upper" midrange glare as just my tweeter is a horn. The middle and lower midrange is being handled by dual cone speakers and always sounded fine.

This is all good information that needs to be made public for horn owners who are considering a DecWare amp. Very interesting what you wrote about the design being based on crossover-less speaker and current based sourced. I'll have to do some reading on that.

I appreciate your post on many levels and glad to know that the technical challenges I faced in getting my tone dialed in are based on science rather than subjective hearing judgements. I think I got away lucky in the end just because my Klipsch's do not have a midrange horn and a tweeter horn. I am sure now that the limit with horn speakers with a Torii is just "one" horn in a 2-way design, and at that, it is quite a challenge as I wrote about.

And it very well could be that I could eek out an even better sound experience by hooking up non-horn and/or non-crossover based speakers to my Torii... That will be a whole other journey for another time... But for now, I'm exhausted and just want to set back and enjoy some music for awhile. However, knowing how I am, a perfectionist always seeking greener grass, I'm sure to engage in a new speaker sojourn...

Thanks again -- cheers!

Yes Al is a bit of a curmudgeon.  He believes what he believes and he can explain to you why – and nobody’s going to tell him different.  But that’s OK.  He's not wrong – he just believes in taking a different path to audio nirvana than some.  He believes that a powering amp should have ruler flat response, as close to zero output impedance as possible.  And that speaker “systems” should present as near a constant and steady a load/impedance to the amp as is theoretically possible.  And if it takes a gallon bucket full of resistors, capacitors, inductors, etc. to make it that way – then so be it.  I prefer the “less is more” approach, especially given the discoveries and experience I’ve had in the last 3-4 years.  
If you have a particular amp that’s electrical parameters are  complementary/synergistic to a particular drivers load, with Zero passive parts in the signal path, then I think that is fine too (better to my ears).  I believe I have found this with the Decware Torii and full-range, crossover-less speakers.  

A few years ago I “discovered” a different “path” that also leads to the land of Oz – at least for me.  It was purely by accident and it took me three trips to RMAF before I could accept the cognitive dissonance that what my ears heard was causing my brain.  A subsequent trip to Zenfest toward the beginning of my quest sealed the deal.  Each time I attended RMAF my “ears” drew me to a sound in several rooms that just sounded so real, so alive, I could not ignore it.  The gear in these rooms was stuff I had never been exposed to in all of my 40 years or so of chasing the audio Holy Grail.  In each case it was some type of high-sensitivity, full-range, single driver speakers driven by a few watts of power produced by thermionic valves (except for a First Watt/Cain & Cain room where one of Mr. Pass’ sand amps was delivering the goods).  And the gear always had second mortgage price tags too.  I have owned very expensive and highly regarded gear over the years – all solid state – stuff in Stereophile’s Class A Recommended Components.  And I was “never satisfied”.  I always had buyer’s remorse after just a few months of time with a new component or the latest upgrade/update.  Basically I just always had this nagging feeling that my system just did not sound as good as it should for the investment I’d made.  Finally upon arriving home after my third trip to RMAF and being completely smitten (again) by the music these types of systems produced, I decided I had to find a way to get this in my room. Furthermore, after all the buyer’s remorse (and depreciation) I’d suffered over the years, I was determined to find “this sound” at a reasonable cost.  This is how I came upon Decware and Audio Nirvana full-rangers.  I made some brief detours along the way, thus the Klipsch’s, and most recently my full-range drivers evolved from a box implementation to OB’s – but they’re still full-range, crossover-less drivers – driven by a Decware Torii.  I have never been so “content” with the sound of my system.  I don’t even really think about it too much anymore (except for the ever changing world of digital music).  I just enjoy “listening” now – for hours and hours........

Check out the Caintuck open baffle speakers on the Decware site these days.  These will give you a taste of what I’m talking about.  If you DIY, these are stupid easy to build and low cost – if you don’t like the sound – send them on their way to the next seeker of truth.  They won't have enough bass to satisfy most folks, but bass can be added with Hawthorne Augie's or Eminence Alpha's and an inexpensive plate amp.  

the Caintuck Betsy's at Zen last year were brand-new, out of the box, not broken in units per Randy.  I was there too - we probably met/talked.  I spent some time w/Randy and expressed some minor quibbles I had with the sound of the Betsy baffles .vs. what I hear out of my OB rig, and that's when I found out the pair at Zen were assembled right before he headed out the door for Metamora.  If you are basing your entire opine about full-range, crossover-less, OB's based on that one listening experience - you haven't yet experienced the magic that a fine tuned, full-range, crossover-less, OB system can attain.
Any Decware speaker with only one driver is a crossover-less, full-range type speaker, i.e. the DNA horn, HDT and ZOB.  The ERRx has a cap on the ribbon tweeter with the radial driver running full-range no xover, as does the 945 (I have a pair).  I'm sure the HR1's have a cap on the tweeter, with the radial driver running full-range.  I don't know if the front firing midrange driver runs wide open or not.

As you mentioned, I also experienced the "running near the limits" feeling at Zen two years ago.  At this Zen, I had brought my own amp (Torii 3) to the fest and for the first time heard it break-up/distort.  This was while driving a Decware speaker - I can't remember which one.  At the time I had 6N1P's in my Torii and Steve explained to me that the 6N1P as implemented in the Torii 3 would only drive the output tubes to about 1/2 the Torii's capability, i.e. 12 watts.  He also pointed out that I may have had an output tube reaching the end of its useful life that could produce similar symptoms.
Given that the speakers I was using at home with my Torii were/are much more efficient at 98db or more, than nearly all of the Decware speakers, I had never before experienced running out of gas at home with my Torii.  I should point out that I never have since either... with my speakers and the same Torii.  So something "different" was going on at Zen.  Subsequently, I found some other input tubes that I like, that also produce noticeably more "drive", volume, power, gain, whatever as a side benefit.  So I'm probably now getting all the 24-25 watts the Torii can provide.  And I have multiple sets/types/brands of output tubes now as well.  I never have the running out of gain/power/volume issue in my home rig with my Torii.  The sound is always very "effortless".  There has been exactly only "one" time that I barely heard, for just a split-second, what I thought was audible clipping in my current home system with my Torii and big OB's.  This was just earlier this spring and the volume was at literally, pain level, during one song that a friend of mine and myself were basically "cranking" just to see how loud my modified Trio OB's could go.  Let me tell you, the floor and walls were "flexing" and my ears were crying uncle.

I have no idea what your music preferences are, your room, etc.  But it's safe to say, that the small Betsy baffles are not "party" speakers.  I think Randy even states this on his site.  
If you were to discover that you like OB type of sound, and you need more volume/dynamic capability, or at little more of "this" or little more of "that" - there are many options.  You can add all the bass you could ever imagine with OB bass drivers.  You can add "top end" with a dome tweeter or one of the nice new AMT, folded ribbon tweeters.  Randy shows several of these possibilities on his Caintuck Speakers website. The possibilities are nearly endless to fine-tune to your ears desire.

I would adjudge, that my custom Trio's with three 15" drivers per speaker, with two of the three being Augie bass drivers, can provide all the dynamics/bass/volume that nearly anybody could ever desire - in a home setting (unless the person already has hearing loss - as one of my audio buds does).  I feel no sense to add any top-end either. Cymbals, bells, etc. are crystal clear and completely natural sounding - to my ears.

As always, it behoves one to hear as many components with their own ears as one can - thus enabling one to make a better choice for "their" system.  Perhaps we can talk Randy into bring some other variations of his OB's to Zen this fall........

I do have some 1990's  vintage Klipsch - 3-ways that do have a terrible mid-range cupped hands "awk" when driven by a Torii.. but not when driven by a Cary amp I have or any solid-state amp I've ever tried.  

But you do have me confused with somebody else - cause my wife Has Never Been to Zenfest, RMAF or any other audio hobby related store, festival, show or event.  She is not into this particular hobby of mine in any way.  She doesn't even sit and listen to music with me...!!!!  And we've been together for 35 years..!!!  Just not her thing.

I'm pretty happy with my modified Trio's - more satisfied with "the sound" of my system than I ever have been.  The only thing I would say about full-rangers, or at least all the ones I've heard is their "directional" nature in the upper frequencies (beamy).  If there was a way to get better horizontal dispersion of the upper frequencies, they would be darn near perfect I think.  I think beaming of upper frequencies is pretty common amont full-range drivers.  I'm going to have to study-up on this......and see what can be done.

And have you hooked up your CornScala's to the Torii? If so, how do they sound?