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A new twist on transformer hum in the Torii MKIV (Read 45271 times)
will
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Re: A new twist on transformer hum in the Torii MKIV
Reply #50 - 04/20/20 at 04:14:04
 
Hey Geno,

Glad the you found the thread interesting. I was hoping it might be based on your questions.

I think I mentioned further up, that I don't know what Steve thinks of the magnets, and I don't think anyone else has gotten input from him either, or at least not posted so. But Steve knows about them, and has not said not to use them. I have had nothing but improvement in sound from them, which causes me to think they are good, causing the transformers to produce smoother power, and guessing smoother/quieter power, being less noisy, is likely less agitating and heat producing, but I really don't know.

I have neither an Emotiva, or a Zen Line Conditioner so can't answer your question from my own experience.

When I was looking into upgrading power quite a few years ago, I looked into balanced systems like the ZLC, but I went with a regenerator because I was having enough voltage fluctuation in my power to make my system sound so variable it was impossible to tune to a consistent enough sound for my tastes. Could be 119 at times, to 122 or 123 at times, more voltage adding density and thickness, and less, leaning it down. My PSAudio P5 came with some sonic issues I would have preferred avoiding, but it gave me a very consistent power to tune from. And after fine-tuning it for a more open and clear sound with fuse, feet, a power cord I made especially to open and clarify it, a few passive noise filters, and fine tuning the unit settings, I grew to appreciate it quite a bit.

This leads me to say, I have never put anything in the power path of my amps that did not change the sound in some ways. Be it different receptacles, different power cords, different ends on the cords, different conditioners/regenerators/filters, different IEC inlets in the gear, different power supply caps and bypass caps, wires, resistors... sometimes with some sacrifice, and hopefully weighing on the benefit side substantially...Everything I have tried has made a difference big enough to make a choice, both in terms of power quality and flow, and the finesse in which different parts use that power.

So I don't take things like an Emotiva filter lightly, whether a big benefit or not, depending on too many things to know without trying it.

The main point being though.... the quality and dynamic flow of your power has a critical influence on your component parts performance, the electricity you feed the caps, resistors, wires, transformers etc... having a lot to do with defining your signal quality. So adding something to the chain is always worth serious consideration.

That said, things like the ZLC interested me before I realized voltage regulation was a big deal here. But I never followed through on learning about isolated balanced power. As I recall though, my sense of was that they would isolate your gear from bad power on your power lines, and between audio gear....and I imagined that might include DC offset, but can't say for sure. Question becoming, do you need DC offset assistance, or is your hum something else.

Steve's description of the ZLC says things like: "Unlike normal (non-toroidal) isolation, the Zen Line Conditioner emits no RF and has no vibration or hum!,"  "100% isolation from the noisy power grid,"  and .... "Having everything plugged into a single place, like the Zen Line Conditioner, creates a single-point ground scheme that not only eliminates ground based hum issues, but also improves the sound of your entire system with blacker backgrounds.""Fully balanced output where both the neutral and line are isolated from the wall outlet. This improves safety and blocks all the harmonics and noise from the power grid to greatly enhance the focus, imaging, and liquidity of your stereo."

It would seem your ZLC might mitigate most, if not all power issues. I would have to run some tests, but I think I have noticed more or less transformer hum/vibration with: different tubes, different vibration mitigation and weight schemes, different levels of noise on my AC..... and as I recall, based on picking up noise from proximity to EMI/RF from neighboring gear, or from cables not cancelling each other out, etc... Noise seems quite contagious with things that put out RFI and EMI if they are close together, and/or connected with power... And seemingly all of these things, your ZLC might solve to various degrees, but since the gear itself can create some of these noise making things, perhaps not fully???

Have you checked with Steve on this? Seems like it might be good, especially your having a lot of his gear and his power rig, eliminating some variables. And if you figure something out, please let us know.

I can say that here, weight on Herbies' Sonic Stabilizers on my input transformers; putting on some little strips of Ear damping material on input and output transformers; and careful magnet placement on them and the chokes, all these refined my sound...collectively, relatively substantially in terms of fine detail and space. I had a lot of mods done by the time I put on the Ear SD40AL damping strips, but it was pretty big-time here in terms of resolving cruder detail into more complex and refined fine detail. I am sure these all relate to how things began here with my power and system, but all good here.

Hope this helps,

Will



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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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safebelayer
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Re: A new twist on transformer hum in the Torii MKIV
Reply #51 - 04/20/20 at 06:31:41
 
Geno,

I have the Emotiva. Based off of Steve's description of the zlc, I'm not sure you'd need the Emotiva. I'm not the electrical wiz that Will is, but it seems the zlc performs all and more of the Emotiva. You might run this question in the general forum: "is anyone using Emotiva CX2 with the zlc?"

I have a homemade Hydra and the Emotiva. I've not enjoyed both together. The Emotiva doesn't affect the sound much if at all...has helped with some hum and popping in my past system. Hasn't done much of anything with the Torii MK IV.

Changing the input tubes made a huge difference with the hum and microphonics. I'm using Telefunken 7dj8.
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Geno
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Re: A new twist on transformer hum in the Torii MKIV
Reply #52 - 04/20/20 at 13:11:10
 
Thanks Will and Safe. My issue (not too bad) is with my ZP3. A phono set up always seems to have its own set of issues. Grounding and equipment proximity are usually the culprits. I’ve experimented with changing all manner of tubes, trying different cables, routing of cables, etc. Really, the hum is at a level that is not that bad. The only thing that bothers me is the phono and how recording on my R2R is affected. Recording tracks from an album to tape, as soon as recording starts, in the silence preceding and in between tracks, the hum is audible enough to be bothersome. The combination of having to ground the R2R and the turntable, I’m sure is a good bit of the problem, however I don’t know how else I’d do that. Both are grounded to the ZP3.

I have a SS Schiit phono pre that I can connect just for recording from phono, and it is quiet.

Thanks again guys.
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
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safebelayer
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Re: A new twist on transformer hum in the Torii MKIV
Reply #53 - 04/20/20 at 21:05:32
 
Geno,

What has your experience been with the zlc?

Jon
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Geno
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Re: A new twist on transformer hum in the Torii MKIV
Reply #54 - 04/20/20 at 22:28:18
 
Jon, It works, is really all I can tell you Grin  When i got it, I plugged all of my components into it. It seemed to sound better, but i really never did any A/B tests with it for comparisons. My system sounds really good. I don't see how it could much better. I'm very satisfied.

I've ordered some magnets, hoping it will help a little with the ZP3 hum, and maybe help refine the overall sound even more.
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Archie
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Re: A new twist on transformer hum in the Torii MKIV
Reply #55 - 04/20/20 at 22:43:59
 
Just chiming in here.  With my ZLC, the transformers on my ZMA run cooler.
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Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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will
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Re: A new twist on transformer hum in the Torii MKIV
Reply #56 - 04/21/20 at 00:04:37
 
Hey Geno,

Unlike Safe's thought, I am no electrical wiz, more a dogged experimenter. And it has been so long since I had a real to real or turntable, I can't remember setup. Also, I never had a balanced/isolated conditioner. So these thoughts are not founded in experience, and probably things you have already looked at, but....

So for normal playback, with the R2R and Table grounded to the ZP3, there is not much, or any hum?

But Hum is introduced or compounded strongly enough when taping records, that it is so noticeable on the tape that you have to switch to the Schiit for recording?

Assuming the Schiit is set up the same way, with component grounds as well as ICs, etc connecting them all, and quiet, I see why you attribute the trouble to the ZP3!

It would seem this hum must be solvable without having to change out Phono stages though!

I wonder, is this ground setup a carry-over from before getting your balanced and isolated ZLC?

Does the R2R have a  modern 3 prong cord that connects ground from its chassis to the ZLC?

Just thinking about the ZLC isolating from house power, and the balanced part, presumably cancelling ground interaction between outputs....maybe under these conditions, your concern about component grounding both at the ZP3 may be right, and perhaps unnecessary with the ZLC???

Have you tried lifting the R2R ground wire at the ZP3 since you got the ZLC?




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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Geno
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Re: A new twist on transformer hum in the Torii MKIV
Reply #57 - 04/21/20 at 14:56:30
 
Will,

With the ZP3, there is always a slight transformer hum. At a comfortable volume, it is inaudible while music is playing. It can be heard slightly in between tracks. This hum increases as the volume is increased. I have a ZStage that I took out because it increased the hum even at lower volume levels.

The hum is not compounded during R2R recording. Just audible between tracks. When listening to a recorded tape, at the point where playback starts, it goes from silent before, then you hear hum as record starts, then music starts and covers the hum. The recorder is just picking up the hum from the phono stage.

Yes, the R2R has a 3 prong plug. The TT grounding method has been the same before and after the ZLC. One thing i'll add, too, is that I was using a lower output cartridge, but changed to a higher output model, because I had to use more volume with the lower output model, and this increased the hum. Also, I must have both the TT and the R2R grounded or there is loud hum from each.

And, yes, with the Schiit pre, it is dead quiet.

I have ordered the magnets that you are using.  Is there a chance that they will help a little with the hum?

Thanks very much for your willingness to try and help with this.  It is very much appreciated.

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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Archie
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Re: A new twist on transformer hum in the Torii MKIV
Reply #58 - 04/21/20 at 17:30:37
 
I have minor ZP3 transformer hum but it is constant and low level.  My amplified hum is also low.  Careful cable routing and a trip to Steve seems to have eliminated the troubling hum I used to have.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Geno
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Without music, life
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Posts: 1988
Re: A new twist on transformer hum in the Torii MKIV
Reply #59 - 04/21/20 at 17:59:48
 
Archie, what did Steve do to yours when you sent it back?
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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will
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Re: A new twist on transformer hum in the Torii MKIV
Reply #60 - 04/21/20 at 19:13:24
 
Geno,

Edit: Sorry, I keep forgetting, submitting a post without checking for new posts, like Archie's recent one......but anyway...


For trouble shooting, sounds like you have tried everything, but...did you try plugging only the ZP3 into the ZLC, and no ICs or other gear connected to either? Does that change the mechanical hum?

Seems unlikely, with the ZLC being designed to solve ground and noise issues, but have you tried swapping gear cords into different receptacles, especially the ZP3?

The reason I asked about the R2R 3 prong plug, was wondering if you were getting your "safety ground" via a modern grounded power cable, or via the ZP3 through its connection with the R2R. Since it is necessary to hook the R2R to the ZP3, I wonder if you have tried a "cheater" plug that disconnects its ground at the ZLC...if nothing else, just for trouble shooting information.



Aside from that....I hope I can offer an outside view, another point of reference on this hum you are experiencing.

If you have to remove your Decware phono stage to get good recordings, and have had to remove your ZStage to enjoy your music with the ZP3 hum, to me this sounds like a serious hum issue. No matter how subjectively OK it is in terms of hum volume levels, it sounds like it is defining too much of your audio experience to me...

And I know the feeling of being so good, it is hard to imagine it getting much better. But for me, with hundreds of experiments over time, exploring parts and wires most days for spells, and always ending up with notable improvements, "How much better can it get," has become sort of a personal joke for me.

Things are now leveling off some, but I have been making progressive iterations of different cables for over many years; methodically modified my DAC somewhere in there; pretty steadily over the last several years, going deeper into IC designs while getting way into modifying the CSP3 and Torii. And the last 6 months or so, refining my HR-1s has been fairly illuminating.

Having begun with all great gear and good cables, after all this and more, only just lately are things beginning to level out. And this leveling seems like it will have to stick one day, but in the past, when I came to a plateau, digging in deeper always resulted in improvements that began another level.

So I have no doubt that if you can solve this hum, beyond becoming more user friendly and flexible, your system will take you to a better musical level. Subtler noise can be overwhelmed by music, but it is still there, damaging and interfering with the signal. So solving it musically, so far for me anyway, is always good.



As to your recent magnet question: Dan, who started this thread, said in one of his posts, that the heavy duty magnet he described reduced mechanical hum, I think I recall, more than the Emotiva. Finally it seems he preferred the Emotiva for overall sound improvement, but the Emotiva has additional filtering as well as DC offset repair, and Dan had no other conditioning at the time....so who knows how this would relate to your setting.

I have not tried big magnets, and for me, with small ones,  improvements were more with sound refinement, with perhaps a little mechanical hum improvement. Though your hum sounds worse than mine started, maybe little magnets in the right places, and maybe more of them, will reduce mechanical hum also??? I look forward to what you find!



Overall though, looking for a substantive fix, considering that the Schiit is quiet where the ZP3 is not, this seems important to me!

Though they clearly have a different design, and Schiit may have given more priority to noise mitigation than Steve chose to use based on his design goals for musical transparency....Don't know....But to me, the Schiit quiet, indicates that the hum can be fixed!

And though Steve has told us humming does not happen with gear leaving his shop, and that he has found most cases to be some environmental/system problem, it is possible yours got messed up in shipping, or some part was just not right to start with and got worse!


Finally, to me, since this hum is defining what gear you can use, and was not solved by the ZLC....And since most of your gear is Decware...And since Steve has a lot of experience with Vinyl, Tape, ground and other power issues....I really would encourage you to call him and see if he can help you figure this out.

If he does not have solutions right off, seems to me good initial questions might be...

1) Does he think his ZLC mostly resolves DC offset? And if not, maybe ask what he thinks about getting an Emotiva somewhere where you can return it, and trying it before the ZP3.

I looked it up and it is rated to 15 amps continuous, with a 250% inrush current cushion, so in theory it seems it could work going into the ZLC or after it, but a good question for Steve.

2) How come the Schiit is quiet, and does he imagine your ZP3 could have some defect, or be modded to be quieter? Just thinking out loud.

Good Luck,

Will



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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Archie
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Re: A new twist on transformer hum in the Torii MKIV
Reply #61 - 04/21/20 at 20:30:35
 
I don't know really.  It just came back slightly better.  I also had him do anniversary mods later when he also bypassed the standby switch.  I use IERC tube shields on the 3 front tubes and I ran a ground wire from the front tube shield to the ground lug.  I don't think any of this made much difference but routing my ICs away from power outlets made a huge difference -- regardless of IC type.  The transformer does have some mechanical hum which I first tried to alleviate with isolation between the top plate and the base, to no avail.  But as I mentioned, this hum is inconsequential as it doesn't get amplified through the speakers.  My other hum did.  The reason for the shield ground is more for tube microphonics.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Lon
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Re: A new twist on transformer hum in the Torii MKIV
Reply #62 - 04/21/20 at 20:49:58
 
I just want to add that I tried the Emotiva unit because Dan had such success with it, not that I really had a hum problem to solve. (I do occasionally experience a faint mechanical transformer hum on my Monoblocks, though I haven't noticed it in some time.)

The Emotiva unit did identify for me two outlets that were wrongly wired in my upstairs electrical grid, which was very helpful. I did NOT like the sound with the unit though. I didn't really notice any change used with my ZLC based system, but in my other two systems, either placwed before or after the regenerator I heard the filter network used with this unit and did not like the result. The systems sounded better with it far away. . . .

Just my experience. I sold it to someone on another board for a good price who is I believe quite happy with it.
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