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Listening Journey: Focal & Zu (Read 10645 times)
Dave1210
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Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
04/03/16 at 12:21:27
 
My buddy and I stopped by one of our local audio stores yesterday—Hanson Audio.  The main goal was to listen to the Focal Sopra No. 2 floorstanding speakers with a tube amp, and that is what we did.



The amp was an Octave VC-70, which is an integrated tube amp that delivers 70 watts into 4 ohms and slightly less into 8 ohms.  The speakers are ~91 dB efficient and the amp never ran out of juice, so it seemed like it was a good pairing.  The speakers are said to have a fairly flat impedance curve, but I haven’t been able to confirm with a graph.  

Front end was an Auralic Vega DAC being fed by an Aurender N100 server.  The control app for the Aurender is nice.  In my opinion it’s more refined than the Bubble UPnP app I am using.  We were streaming TIDAL through the Aurender because their NAS was disconnected.  

The Sopras were extremely detailed, yet very musical.  I haven’t heard speakers this detailed in a while.  The soundstage was wide, but not that deep (my buddy described it as mostly 2D) and was vertically higher than I am used to (e.g. looking up at vocalists).  Overall I would describe the presentation as forward.

The speakers are surprisingly dynamic.  I almost jumped out of the chair during the opening hits on Castillian Drums from Dave Brubeck At Carnegie Hall.  The drum solo in this track was dynamic, engaging and the drum hits sounded natural, tight and snappy.   That said, I did cringe slightly on a few of the cymbal hits.

There were a few other times I thought the tweeter was a bit too hot, but I didn’t get any listening fatigue.   Bass was mostly good, but the room was a little too small for the speakers so there was some boom on occasion.

Overall, this setup provided a fairly different presentation vs. what I am used to.    



Next up was a trek back to my buddies place to listen to the Torii mk4 on his Zu Omen Definition speakers.  We listened to a variety of music including Stevie Ray Vaughn, Dire Straights, Michael Jackson, Melody Gardot, Cassandra Wilson.

The sound was detailed and very musical.  Not as detailed as what we heard at the audio shop, but there was plenty of detail to hear deep into the music.  In addition, the soundstage was more 3-Dimensional vs. what we had just heard at the audio shop.

I did notice some hotness/beaming with the Eminence tweeter on the Zu’s.  For instance, some of the percussion on Don’t Stop ‘Till You Get Enough from Michael Jackson’s Off the Wall was slightly bothersome.  The treble cut helped take the edge off, but I noticed some air disappear from the music.  

The overall presentation of the Torii/Zu combo was less forward than the system at the audio shop.  The speakers disappear well and the scale is nice and big (MTM with two 10 inch drivers makes for a fairly large speaker).  Interestingly the Zu’s didn’t seem to have quite the dynamic jump of the Focal speakers.  Maybe a pre-amp would solve for this.

The other thing that’s nice about the Torii/Zu combo is that my buddy never really gets above 12 o’clock on the volume control (I think he is more typically between 9-11 o’clock), which means there is good headroom for peaks (the Omen Def’s are 101 dB).

I had the Omen Def’s at my place for a couple weeks with the ZMA and the same magic wasn’t there.  We plan to have a couple more listening sessions to investigate further, but as of right now the Torii is the better amp for these speakers.  

Overall, the Torii mk4/Zu combo is excellent.

In the past 2 weeks I have heard 3 different systems (not including my own).  All sounded very different and each had attributes that were great.  It has been fun exploring.  

Have fun and enjoy the music!
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RJR
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Re: Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
Reply #1 - 04/03/16 at 13:26:51
 
Dave1210, great observations and it is nice to know that someone else is enjoying the Torii/ZU combo.  I have the Torii MK3 and CSP2+ paired with the MK 1.B Omen Defs (the vintage before the ones depicted in your article).  I listen mainly to Rock and I feel the sound just keeps getting better.  Plus I installed some GIK acoustic treatments and now upgraded from the Squeezebox SB3 to the Auralic Aries Mini, which definitely has helped.  Again, it really is a great combo.

The only thing that you and I will disagree, is the spelling of one of my favorite groups, Dire Straits.  I laughed when I saw Dire Straights.  

Take care and thanks
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Dave1210
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Re: Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
Reply #2 - 04/03/16 at 16:53:35
 
Thanks RJR.  Not sure about Dire Straights, but Dire Straits sure is a good band.  Glad you are enjoying your Torii/Zu combo!
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beowulf
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Re: Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
Reply #3 - 04/05/16 at 07:00:29
 
Hi Dave, thanks for your comments ... what speakers do you currently have running with your kit?  

As far as your observations ~ I have heard the same thing in regards to a "hotness" on the Zu tweeter. Which I also recall reading a thread on these forums that somebody here actually sent a pair back to Zu because of this.

I find this puzzling, because in another thread Mark mentioned that he preferred the Zu Souls over the Omega speakers because he felt the Omegas had a forward top end, which I just do not associate anything about the Omegas as forward sounding and actually think they are just a tad bit on the warm side of neutral if anything ... not as laid back as say a pair of Harbeths which are smooth & caramel like, but I don't feel the Omegas are forward at all. Huh

I recently demo'd a pair of B&W 802 and 803 D3's which I did find forward and hot top end and aside from the excellent and tuneful bass I wanted to leave the room they were bothering me so much ... and that was running a very smooth McIntosh front end.  I know it was the speakers (not the electronics) as I heard the same front end on a pair of Wilson Sasha II's with the new silk dome tweeter just a week earlier and they were silky smooth with lots of bass as well.  Same price category, but the differences were like night and day ... I could listen to the Sasha's all day, but the B&W's fatigued my ears right away.

Perhaps my ears are just not what they used to be from all years spent in the Navy shooting guns and being around a lot of helos and jets, etc. Grin
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Dave1210
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Re: Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
Reply #4 - 04/05/16 at 19:28:52
 
Hi Beowulf.  I currently have Decware MG944’s.  I have been exploring potential upgrades, including the HR-1’s, and am in process of listening to as much as possible to get a sense for what is out there.

My buddy is also bothered by the high frequencies on his Zu Omen Defs.  We also experienced brightness with the Zu’s in my system, but not with the MG944’s.  

Zu uses a few different types of tweeters in their speakers.  I have heard the Omen Defs and Druids side by side with very similar amplification and I hear a noticeable difference between the Eminence and Radian 850 tweeters. For me, the Radian 850 tweeter (in the Druid) is smoother, more refined, less edgy and overall a noticeable upgrade vs. the Eminence.  Unfortunately, the 850 upgrade for the Omen Defs isn’t cheap--it adds about $1000 to the cost of the speakers (~25% the cost of the Omen Defs).  

The Zu Soul speakers Mark has are a different design overall (coaxial) vs. the speakers referenced above, so in theory should sound different than most of the other speakers in the Zu lineup.  I have seen the Soul’s in person, but have never heard them.  I have also not heard any Omega speakers, so I don’t have a reference point.

I think I can say that equipment matters since my experience suggests that the Omen Defs are capable of excellent sound (just not in my system).  I’m sure the Omegas can sound bright in some setups and not in others.  
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DBC
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Re: Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
Reply #5 - 04/06/16 at 03:16:27
 
Dave,

Just curious as to what you might describe as weak points for the MG944's compared to other speakers you have auctioned ?
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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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kevtn8
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Re: Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
Reply #6 - 04/06/16 at 07:09:32
 
Hi Dave,

I recently purchased the Zu Soul Supremes and have been enjoying them for almost 6 weeks now. I've owned a few Decware speakers in the past along with the Omega Super3XRS and have also been to 2 audio shows over the last few years and imho, the Zu Supremes are dollar for dollar, the finest all-around speaker that I've heard. Its essentialy the new Druid mkV in a much more elegant and eye-pleasing cabinet for me. The Radian 850 tweeter is maybe one of the most beautiful tweeters that I've ever heard. It is so open, natural, and detailed and it blends with their nano full-range driver so seamlessly. This speaker along with their Druid being 16ohm is tailor made for tube amps ( SET and OTL). What is so special for me is the fact that at 101db and my preference for not listening too loud, I can happily live with the flea power SET amps like my Zen Select.

If you really like the Zu Omen Def but can't stand the Eminence tweeter, upgrading to the Radian is the way to go. The Radian was the deciding factor for me when deciding from their floorstanding speakers. If the cost is too much like you said, talk to Sean or Gerrit and ask if they have any b-stock ( new drivers with minor cosmetic blemished cabinets). This was how I got my Supremes. In addition, their customer service is second to none. I couldn't be happier.
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Dave1210
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Re: Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
Reply #7 - 04/06/16 at 12:57:07
 
Hi DBC,

Compared to the Sopras, the MG944s and Omen Defs aren’t as detailed, dynamic and don’t image as well.  The Sopras seemed better at conveying space in the recording (e.g. room reverb) vs. both the MG944s and ODs too.   The MG944s produce a soundstage that is smaller in scale compared to both the Sopras and ODs.  

I thought the crossover in the Sopras was going to suck the life out of the speaker, but the speakers sounded alive and vivacious.  My ears have been opened to a different approach to speaker design vs. what we typically talk about here on the forums.

I didn’t mention this above, but it’s worth noting that the tonal purity of the Sopras seemed to drop off while sitting off to the side vs. in the sweet spot.  If I had to venture a guess it was likely due to dispersion of the tweeter.  You don’t get this tonal change with either the ODs or the MG944s.  The sweet spot is widest with the Zus.      

Both the Sopras and ODs seemed to produce more bass than the MG944s.   I hesitate to put too much weight into this though considering I heard all of these speakers in different rooms.  That said, more doesn’t necessarily mean more articulate/tuneful.  Of the three, the MG944s seemed to be the most articulate, the Zus the least.   When I had the OD’s at my place, I could never get the bass sounding tight, articulate and punchy, no matter how much I adjusted the gap.  

The Omen Defs take some juice to come alive.  The MG944s are definitely more engaging and detailed at lower volumes (I notice this on both the ZMA and Torii).  I can’t say we tested this with the Sopras, but the Focals are so detailed I would think they would maintain a good portion of that detail at lower volumes.

Compared to the Omen Defs, the MG944s don’t really have any weaknesses per se.  There are minor differences in sound, but the speakers are in the same league with the right setup.  The Sopras are definitely in a different league, but should be at 3X to price of the Zu's.  The MG944s are hands down the value champs.  They punch way above their weight class.
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DBC
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Re: Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
Reply #8 - 04/06/16 at 16:51:51
 
Dave,

Thanks for your impressions. I've owned a number of large floor standing speakers over the years. Most recently the Klipsch RF7's. None were at their best (particularly engaging) at lower volumes. I found adding Mid Bass Modules to reinforce the lower end helped a lot at lower volumes.

The RF7's had a lot of Bass at higher volumes but not necessarily the cleanest and most articulate. I think with larger speaker cabinets it's almost impossible to avoid cabinet noise. Decware full range speaker cabinets tend to be smaller resulting in a sturdier cabinet. At last years Decfest it was interesting that even the HR-1's and Monoliths Loaded-Up Steve's listen room a couple of times. Not sure if this was just the speaker cabinet becoming excited, just the room becoming excited or a combination of both. I was surprised to hear this in Steve's highly treated room.

My Omega Super Alnico monitors have really tight Bass. I used my Mid Bass Modules to reinforce the lower frequencies with great success (bigger sound). More recently I've been using Low Frequency Open Baffles (LoFOB's) that I built and they have been quite impressive (much bigger sound and much cleaner).

When doing an A/B comparison between the Mid Bass Module's and LoFOB's the difference is stark. Cabinet noise from the Mid Bass Modules masks much of the delicate Bass Lines in some music killing a lot of the rhythm & pace. I'll try to post some pic's of my latest generation LoFOB's soon.

I had considered the Zu Omen Def's. However since purchasing the Omegas I've become a big Single Driver (no crossover) fan. I also think the Monitors do everything better than my floor standers of the past. For my taste the only thing the monitors lack are a bit more Mid Bass Presence which the LoFOB's provide in abundance. I should note my RF7's lacked Mid Bass Presence a moderate volumes also.

My thinking has evolved more in favor of Monitors. Just seems more difficult integrating a large full range speaker into a room. With my RF7's for instance, placing them for best Bass reproduction and the Sound-stage suffered. Best Sound-stage placement and the Bass reproduction Suffered. So in the end I placed them for best Sound-stage and filled in the low end with Mid Bass Modules. So in the end the RF7's weren't' really full range in my room.

One thing about the Omega Monitors is they produce a very big engaging sound at low to moderate volume levels. Much of this is due to their resolution and the cohesion of a single driver. I've noticed the last few times I've demoed systems at dealers they just aren't that engaging at low to moderate volumes which is where I spend a lot of listening these days.
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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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beowulf
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Re: Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
Reply #9 - 04/07/16 at 00:01:14
 
@ DBC, I agree with your assessment after a lot of experimenting as well.  Firstly, I prefer monitors with added mid bass over towers.  Secondly, having no crossover in the mix just gives an immediate presentation that I have not found in any other speaker type.  Tube rolling, cable changes and any component changes are way more noticeable to me with this type of speaker.

There are lots of great speakers out there that have more tuneful bass or sparkly highs, but I have never heard another speaker that can match the 3D imaging of a single driver, crossoverless speaker.

I'm wondering if you have ever heard any Servo based subs with single drivers?  

I'm toying with the idea of having Louis make me some BBC sized monitors (say Harbeth SuperHL5 or 40.1 sized) that would incorporate a 2 chamber box.  The top chamber will be with the AlNiCo Super Hemp driver and rear ported.  The bottom chamber will have an active 12" Rythmik subwoofer and MOSFET amp and that will be sealed.  

My only hesitation thus far is that I haven't heard of anyone matching these particular drivers together and don't know if the Rythmik 12" will be fast enough to pair with the smaller AlNiCo drivers ... though I have my suspicions they will.  

There is a guy (Peter) on the Omega forums that had Louis build him some Alnico monitors with Rythmik 8" drivers bases, but that is a 4 piece speaker system where the monitors sit on top and the bass drivers below in a separate boxes.  I'm striking up a conversation with him of his impressions of this combo after living with them for a while now to give me an idea if these will work or not, etc.
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DBC
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Re: Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
Reply #10 - 04/07/16 at 17:56:15
 
beowulf, sent you a PM.

DBC
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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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Dave1210
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Re: Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
Reply #11 - 04/08/16 at 02:32:14
 
Beowulf/DBC,

Sounds like you guys really enjoy your Omega speakers.  I think I have a sense for the benefits.   What are the limitations of the Omegas?

The Zu’s don’t have a crossover on the main drivers (neither do my MG944’s).  Do you only get the immediate presentation and 3D imaging when it’s a single driver only?  

Have you looked into the Outlaw speakers that utilize two drivers, no crossovers and are even higher in efficiency?  

Are you both using SET amps with these speakers?  My main amp is the ZMA, but I also have a CKC.      

Does Omega have a trial period?  I don’t see any information on the website regarding trial/returns.
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Dave1210
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Re: Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
Reply #12 - 04/12/16 at 02:05:43
 
The below Omega omni with 2 AlNiCo drivers looks interesting…

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=142029.0

Comments from Louis on the omni...

"Omni's like these pictured are a bit easier to place in the room and don't require the large distance that a Bipole/Dipole needs from the wall behind the speakers.

Both drivers are run full range and can be wired in either 4 ohm (parallel) or 16 ohm (series). Same as the bipole/dipole speakers. I can add dual binding posts and jumpers so it can be changed form 4 or 16 ohm.

Compaired to a single driver, the dual driver models will work half as hard as one driver, will be more sensitive and efficient and have more mid bass fill. Dynamics goes up a lot and the ability to play more complex music.

Omnis do have the excellent imaging and huge sense of space. It's excellent with classical music as well. They fill a large room easily."
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beowulf
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Re: Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
Reply #13 - 04/12/16 at 09:06:15
 
The little Super Zen Triode loves 4 ohm loads too, it would drive these babies with aplomb!
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hdrider
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Re: Listening Journey: Focal & Zu
Reply #14 - 04/12/16 at 21:42:42
 
Interesting read going on here. I had the house to myself last weekend and moved my Omega XRS7Mkll and Deep 8 sub and just about spent the whole weekend listening to records (a couple of cd and videos fell into the mix) and I know Steve make great speakers, so do not think I am dissing them at all, but the reaction to my Decware Rachael/ZP3 will just lay you out. I have not listened from 7pm until 2 am ever. I had to boot my buddy out Saturday night. Amazing amps these Decware amps. Happy listening.
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CSP3, Rachael, ZP3, ZMC 1, Sony ES Bluray, Schitt Bitfrost DAC,Sota Star TT w/ FR-64, Hana SL Low Output Moving coil, Omega 7XRS Mk 2 walnut, DeepOmega 8 sub, Morrow Audio PH3 and MA3 IC's, Gamma Electrostatic phones.
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