I have a Torri Mk3 with 16ohm taps feeding 16ohms ZU Superflys with the upgraded drivers, caps and tweeters. Amazing combo.

I recently put in the Brimar 5R4GY's, which I am keeping in the amp forever!  Outstanding vocal's.  But, the problem is now my 6N1P (really nice ones) don't have enough drive and cause to amp to distort way too early.

The only 6922's I have on hand are Gold Lions which are way too harsh. And some Upscale Audio's National 7DJ8's (Japanese) which do sound great for $30 tubes. But nothing that makes you go wow. I could easily live with them, but will always wonder if I am missing out. So now I need to get some good 6922/6DJ8/7308/PCC88.

What you you recommend? I don't want to go over $100 per tube.

I am looking at:

Brimar Ediswans ($60 per tube)
Premium NOS 6H23P-EB's ($60 per tube)
Philips Heerlen Holland PCC88 - Dish getters, triangle delta codes DJH delta0G1, ($75 per PAIR)

Any other options?

I would really appreciate your feed back.

Thanks Mark! Your right, seems to be quite a few on eBay.

Thanks guys.  Looks look I could swing getting a pair of Amperex 7308's.

Orange,  I'd like to add that the Amperex White label, often with the Bugle Boy logo, 6DJ8s can be very nice.  I have a pair of Omega Alincos in my second system that I now rarely use...I like my Zu Audio Souls better.  But I digress, with the Omegas I would often replace a pair of 7308s that I ran with the Souls, for the 6DJ8s.  They seemed to tone down the highs nicely which are a bit much for me with the Omegas.  The 6DJ8s have the "Amperex" sound but with a bit less detail/focus than the 7308s...I found it an excellent match for the Omegas hot tendencies.

The reason this came to mind this morning is because I just put in a recently purchased pair of the Amperex 6DJ8s...one is a 1961 Bugle Boy, the other is unlabeled and I forgot to look for the etched codes before putting it in my Zen Signature Monoblocks.  I'm running the Zu Audio Souls and they sound fantastic. I know you can get these for $15 or less each all day long...so for 30 bucks I suggest trying them out, especially if the Tweeter on your Zu Super Flys is a bit hot for you.

I might add that I have used and liked the Russian 6n1p-EVs and like them...currently I have a 60's triple mica version in the outputs of my CSP3...the input is a Holland made Amperex white label 6922.

So I guess my bottom line is don't get too hung up about thinking more expensive is better.  It all depends on your speakers, associated gear and tubes; and most important, your personal preference...a $15 tube may be the ticket to audio nirvana.  Mark.

Orange, have you read "Joe's Tube Lore"?  I found his opinions a great starting point. Keep in mind this is one man's opinion in his personal gear with his preferences.  I have found I agree with a lot of it but I have found some tubes he didn't rate highly to be very good in my opinion...for example the RCA black plate triple mica 5814 in the 12AU7 spot of the ZP3 are my favorites but weren't in Joe's chosen few.  Here it is below.  It's enjoyable to read even if your preferences are different.

Also keep in  mind this was written in the 90's so the tube prices are usually way out of date.  Enjoy,  Mark.

http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html

I used to drive the SE34I.2 with a pair of 6n1p´s (I also tried 6n2p´s but these never really worked for me). 6n23p´s just fit in my system better all over, from bottom to top, it was a great finding!

I could not use 6N1Ps in my MkIII ever for this same reason....early distortion.

Don't know about the matching Amperex based on date. But I would not necessarily trust this anyway, as many "NOS" tubes test as NOS, but are pulls...used, and they may have different use!

Also,  in my MKIII, I found most 6922s a little too hard and articulate compared to 6DJ8/7DJ8, with more defined edges and less texture than I liked. So depending on the rest, I almost always used PCC88 or ECC88. Whereas, the MKIV (here anyway) can use about any input with the right tube set, being really good here with many E88CC/6922/7308 types. I am loving some Phillips SQ pulls in the MKIV now with warmish, spacious, Mazda (Mullard-like construction) GZ32s.

Though I had NOS Russian paper in oil caps in the MKIII and Jupiters in the MKIV, I think other circuit changes make the MKIV different in how it sounds with inputs. This is not to say the American Amperex 7308 will not be good with your V-capped MKIII, the early 60's pair I have tend to be really smooth and natural sounding tubes, but I did not use them much in the MKIII. The moral being, every amp makes a tube a little different, so the traits Joe talks about are pretty real if I recall correctly, but his ultimate choices may not be yours depending on the vast complexity of our systems and how each part contributes to the sound.

And the rectifier can make a huge difference in this equation, so hard to say...but I almost always used PCC88s in the MKIII. I also found the Nationals too predictable, with less character than many PCC88s. Though having PCC88 traits, they are a bit more "normal" sounding than many, having an even, warmish, somewhat 6922 vibe, though having decent texture.

The highlights of 7DJ8/PCC88 to me are generally, a good sense of power, but with open spaciousness, good extension and texture, and a little less bass than 6922s....depending on system/room, making the bass seem more articulate.

So maybe give the Nationals and the Gold lions a good listen knowing they may not be your first choice of the type, but indicating traits, and go from there. Might lead you one way or another. 623NP are more in the 6922 range and can be nice too. 6DJ8/ECC88 are generally closer to 7DJ8 with a bit less sense of power compared to 6922, and associated, a bit less articulate edge definition, the ECC88/6DJ8 being more spaciousness and textured, with usually less bass extension...Your old standard, 6N1P, are closer to 6DJ8s, and the above mentioned early 60's Bugle Boys can sound pretty close to nice 7DJ8s.

My favorite PCC88s in the MKIII where probably early 60s Miniwatts, I think Heerlin made by the look of them. The 7DJ8 type was in my MKIII by far more than the other types in my system/room and with my love of the "player in the room" sound. Somehow, here, they were more consistently good in my MKIII than ECC88 or E88CC.

Thanks Will, I always appreciate your feedback.

When I put the Brimar 5R4GY's, I knew they would never leave my amp. I was lucky to get a really nice quad, and so hopefully I will not be looking at rectifiers again for along time. No flashing when turing on the amp, and they are dead quiet. I love the sound so much that I am building the amps sound around them.

I love my regulators and output tubes. The last link that needs to fit is the input tubes.

Due to the darker, lusher side of the Brimar's, I am not afraid to try more exotic 6922,7308's. I due need super quiet tubes as my Zu's are so sensitive. The Philip's Holland tubes are confusing to me. I see so many of various price ranges. What exactly would you recommend?

Thanks hi tubes, but I am done with Upscale. Too pricey and at times unwarranted hype. He refuses to ship economically to Canada, and I get dinged with import charges. Also, at this point I want something a bit more exotic then the Pope/Bugle boys. Especially if I going to live with them for the next many years!

The more expensive tend to be made in one of the better quality factories in europe during a time period where the quality was at a premium.

JD

So Orange,  did you bid on some of the Amperex 7308s on ebay that ended yesterday?  I saw the two pairs sold for reasonable prices.  Those were very nice white labels.  I should point out that almost all Amperex 7308s you'll find will be made in the USA  in New York.  They are very good and comparable to European Amperex 7308s from what I've read...same goes for the 6922s. Now the Bugle Boy or white label 6DJ8s are European made and the best sounding do seem to be made in Holland...with delta in the date code. Looks like a good testing pair of white label 60's Amperex 7308s or 6922s will run between $110 and $80....my prior prices were a bit low.  I have bought singles for less from less "professional" sellers...always a risk.  The matched pair I bought from a  Decware member cost me $125...it's reserved for the Torii. My Zen Signature mono blocks and CSP3 can use unmatched tubes...so I buy good deals. Let us know what you do.  Mark.

The 5670 is compatible? I remember seeing those on iFi site. I thought trans-conductance was way lower.

Orangecrush : Quote:


Impossible to guess what to recommend without specific sound preferences based upon what you think of the sound of other tubes in your particular configuration and where you would like it to go. For example, if the 6N1P is good sound for you other than distortion....or do you want more texture, openness, or smoother highs, or deeper or less bass....

Also, I know you have worked hard to get your sound where you like it, and not everything "great" is going to fall into synergy with that. The 60s American Amperex white label PQ 7308 is a really good tube, as are the 60s 6922.

I just listened to my 63-4 7308 PQs and Green Globe 6922 not sure the date but I think later 60s. The sound is very similar, warmish, smooth, and soft on top, though clear. The PQ does do it all a bit more, a bit deeper bass, clearer space/black, actually sounds louder and a little faster/more dynamic...The Green Globe is closer turned up a bit, but the PQ/7308 in direct comparison sounds like a better grade or make tube. Neither would I consider "exotic" in this particular tube set where the MKIV and CSP3 are on the warm side, I think due mostly to the Mullard/Mazda GZ32s in both amps, and a quite domineering tube, a warm and powerful Telefunken E88CC in front the CSP3, with some warmish early 60s Sylvania 6922 gold pins for power. Context!

The Phillips Heerlin SQs are variable too. I am not sure of actual dates of the later one again, but my 63 pair is less good to me than my later 60's pair and the two are surprisingly different sounding, though construction looks exactly the same (as is the case with the Amer. 7308 and 6922 I have).... Like the American tubes, the Phillips both give the sense of a very nicely made and good sounding tube. To me the later one reflects the sound qualities of the earlier, but is more open/neutral than the earlier which is, and always has been, too warm for me. The earlier one is the more sought after tube, also a touch warmer than the American 7308.

I would not mistake still being relatively available with sonic quality for PCC88s or Bugle Boys. The 7DJ8 are even now still just gaining popularity and Bugle Boys were made by the gazillions. The old stalwarts have reasons for being popular and expensive, but they may or may not be the ticket for that particular sound you like! I would not use either of the the above super tubes in this current setting, preferring the later copy of the Phillips SQ, some near NOS testing "pulls" I got for like 70 for the pair delivered from eastern Europe. They are like a clearer, more neutral version of the Amer. 7308 with more top extension.

For kicks I put in some Haltron labelled PCC88s. They have stamped getter risers...maybe Siemens???. In this setting, for midrange clarity without pain, I would take it over the big names above but the bass is a little more mushy with this particular set. Some Phillips PCC88s open things up another notch, but still smooth in this tube set, and the bass deep and tight.

It is all context. There is no doubt the American 7308s are very nice tubes. I use them most in the front of the CSP3 with more open tubes in the power position. It all depends on too many variables of room, cables, power, source, vibration etc. And if you look here at the guys most into Amer Amperex 7308s, like Mark and Lon, I think you will find a thread of aversion to upper end articulation and often associated preference for warmth, reflecting the warm smoothness of the tube, but also why I don't tend to use it as a Torii input. I seem to like mixing and matching these days...open inputs and more warmth elsewhere giving that precious live feel without pain.

I hope you get lucky and find that magic input! I much prefer having choices than trying for one perfect tube. Actually, for me I don't think the perfect tube set can exist since I have enough tubes of all types to change the context and I really love being able to do this...to change to different flavors of beautiful, shifting my musical experience.

Like now, the Phillips PCC88 that could be a little too clear in some settings is smooth and a bit  warm in this one! Replace the Mullard GZ32 with an RCA 5R4GY in the CSP3 and things open up, and tighten up...slower, but nice and still quite smooth and warm, though many would call this rectifier sterile. Back in the Torii with the later Phillips E88CC, very nice also...that old school solidity of a really good 6922 type I never loved in the MKIII, but really do in the MKIV. Now some 60s Mullard ECC88 with a large hallow getter....these were good testing pulls...gorgeous..louder, fast, articulate, deep/round but natural sounding bass, quite spacious, more upper mids in the balance.

Who knows!

Orange, is this the listing you're talking about?  I see a couple problems.  First this is a listing from Bulgaria...I rarely buy from a non-usa seller unless someone else here has done so without problems.  Second the guy gives no test results.  Also if I'm reading the codes right these tubes were made by the Mullard plant at Mitchum (the capital R in the date code) in 1969 (the 9 in the date code). I don't know if $100 is a good price and i also don't know how the tubes would sound...probably very good.  I personally would stick with Amperex...which was owned by Phillips as many brands were...and either the Holland made tubes with a delta or the USA tubes with an asterisk in the tube code.  Three Amperex 7308s just sold several minutes ago by the same vendor you looked at for $35 to $38 for great white label single tubes...shipping would be $3.95.  I had planned on bidding on them for 37 bucks but forgot because I was typing this...oh well...hehe.

Will is correct...listen to him. I do tend to favor a warmer/smoother sound than he does.  For input tubes I haven't experimented too much having used only the Amperex family but soon I'll try some Mullard 6DJ8s...just need to pick one more up.  Now in the ZP3 I've rolled many tube types and brands.  

Can't believe I forgot to bid on those auctions...I had them all lined up but when I remembered, they were done. Don't be in a rush...good tubes and deals come up all the time.  Just be patient.  From what you've told us, I think you should try the Amperex white label 7308s....PQ or Military Spec...doesn't matter.  They are the same tube made on the same line in New York.  My guess is that same seller has more tubes and will soon list again. Anyway, back to the music,  Mark.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Philips-E88CC-S-Q-Special-Quality-Triode-Tube-Low-Noi...

Mark, no, it was this one:

http://m.ebay.ca/itm/PHILIPS-E88CC-SQ-XMAS-SALE-PRICE-PAIR-OF-NOS-GOLD-PIN-NEW-I...

Your right, I am going to stick with my plan to pick up some nice white label 7303's.

Hifitubes, I agree that it seems strange, but these guys are not stupid and they have lots of high end tube experience from their parent company.

Orange,  after writing my post I did a search on ebay...not google and found a bunch of those. On the one you have here, I can see the date code on the left one and it is a 1968 Heerlen (Holland) made tube that would be identical to an Orange Globe Amperex made at that plant in 1968.  I have preferred the older white labels but I think the orange globe pair I've listened to was a USA made in NY.  I think the orange ink on Amperex 6922s began in 1967...the green ink began even later. So I would say for the 6922s, if it were me, I'd only buy 1966 or older white label tubes.  

Now with the Orange label 7308s...I've listened to a 1968 NY made and it was the same as one made in NY in 1966 with a white label.  I can't speak to those made later...I've seen some with date codes into the 70's...I would stick to 60's tubes. Also I should add, if test results. are not given ask for them...including the name of the tester, NOS value and minimum good for the tube you are considering.  Do not buy untested tubes

I'm with HiFitubes...do not try that funky tube with the adapter.  Stick to tubes others here have experience with in Decware gear.

So set up a search in ebay and soon you'll have some great tubes for $125 or less for a great testing pair.  Mark.

Will, you are correct.  I haven't seen an orange globe Amperex tube out of Holland either.  The point is just that the Heerlen (Holland) factory made many great tubes and the labels varied...the same tube could have half a dozen brand labels.  The only way to really know what you've got is to examine the etched codes.  The 1968 6922s made in that plant may sound the same as a 1966....I don't know.  My experience with the 1968 Amperex orange label 6922s is limited to the one pair I have that was made in New York. But I do admit it has made me reluctant to try even the Holland made 6922 tubes made in 1968 or later.  If I see some cheap, I may try them.  Mark.

No Orange, on that you are wrong, at  least for American made Amperex tubes the white label was used until 1966, in 1967 the orange, then later the green...not sure when...maybe Will can chime in.  He has much more experience with these tube types than I.

Orange, I'll make you a deal.  If you buy a good testing matched pair of the Amperex white label 7308s and for any reason don't like them...I'll buy them for $80, shipping on you.  So your risk is minimal. Just do it.   Mark.

Orange,  I just looked for some green labels and found our seller of all those nice 7308s has 4 listed.  The date codes would seem to indicate these are made in New York in 1968.  Now I'm a bit perplexed...I always thought the green labels came later but 1968 is exactly the year of manufacture of the pair of New York made 6922s I have, the change code is even the same on my orange label as these green labels...mmmm  Mark.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Vintage-1960s-Amperex-JAN-6922-6DJ8-E88CC-Globe-Gold-P...

Mark: Quote:


Those look just like the green globes I got and thought I remembered as late sixties. As I said earlier, mine are not as good a tube as the 63-4 white PQs, but who knows how another pair might sound.

You will find green and orange label mixed late 60s production.

http://www.tubemonger.com/Amperex_USA_L_New_1966_67_6922_E88CC_Orange_Globe_p/62...

When I find values there, I have bought a lot of tubes from tubemonger over the years and I think they are reliable folks...helpful and taking care of issues if they show up.


Mark,

Ha! My ears are skin colored!

For American Amperex, I have heard White PQs, Orange PQs (I think '70) and the Green Globes, so can't comment on others.

I have enjoyed them all, though I agree that the white PQ is the best all around tube with a special character. However, it can sound great or pretty low average depending on context, as can the others.

And please don't mistake my preferences for a live performance vibe and interest in complex detail for bright. I would be very surprised if most here would find my sound lacking warmth, or edgy. I really don't like the wince factor with edgy recordings and work to find that balance of relatively unrestricted complex detail without hardness. I also doubt if it is my ears or perception, but rather, I likely have a more revealing system than most since I do seem to hear things many don't. I think I have just explored revelation without edginess for a long time and pretty deeply.

The more I follow this, the more I realize there are many different ways to get warmth and body, and it can definitely be gotten without detail loss or muddle. I am finding lately that a blend of tube tonal characters in combination is a really good way to get warmth and body without dumbing down detail or creating hardness. But those complex detail qualities have to be there in source, all the tubes, amps and cables to get there, and without room adjusting the EQ too much, or impediment distortions and noise from rough power or vibration. These things can make hard what was potentially lovely complex detail, detail that has enough micro information to feather the edges into beauty rather than hardness.

So I guess our input choices are based on balancing everything in our systems. For example, I think I have mentioned that I can't listen to your chosen power tubes, RFT/Siemens. I have tried many times, but they balance too hot in the upper mids and highs, and tend to a little dark down lower...for me...in this system/room. Very compelling how they do it, but for me, they sound unnatural. This is not to say it is not an awesome tube, I just prefer what my source/system/room reveal as more linear. But in your system/room, with the other tubes, source, cables and so on you use, those tubes are really remarkable, in part balanced by American Amperex white labels.

I am doing a similar thing now I think. The Telefunken ECC88 I have in the front of the CSP3 really is too intensely thick/warm compared to most tubes I have used, but had really compelling qualities, so I have balanced it with some tubes that could be a bit too open in some other settings and the sound is amazing.

Seems seeking the beauty sound has many paths, really as many as there are parts in a system and room!

While I missed all those 7308's from a closed down audio store on eBay, but tonight I did get the quad of USA 1968 Amperex JAN 6922 Green Label's that Mark mentioned above.  According to Vacuumtubes.net these are the same thing as the Amperex 6922 PQ white label tubes but were packaged and marked for the military. If so, then I got a good deal at $168.50 for a matched quad. If not, still worth trying for me c

I will still get a pair of white label 7308's as well. But these should keep me busy in the mean time!

Will, I might also look for a good 7DJ8 as well.

Thanks everyone for all your help with the. I learned allot!

They did point out the operating points are different on the data sheets. I'm not an expert, but my friend is and his concerns are valid. I'm doing more research. I might buy a pair and have them tested on Amplitrex as 6922.

Quote:

Orange,  I went to that website and couldn't figure out where the discussion on the Amperex 6922s was...could you cut and paste it here.

I hope those green labels work out but both Will and I found USA made 1968 Amperex 6922's to be less satisfactory than and inferior to the white label Amperex 6922s.  The White label would indicate a 1966 or earlier manufacture with a different change code than Green or Orange 1968s. Below is a post made else where when I initially tried the 1968 Amperex Orange Globe tubes...  

 14       SUPPORT FORUMS FOR CURRENT DECWARE GEAR / CSP3 / Re: Any suggestions for the input tube?
on: 04/13/15 at 20:35:57
Started by FarmBoss | Post by mark58
Farm Boss,  I recently did as you want to do...I upgraded both the output and input tubes in my CSP3.  I currently have a White label Amperex 7308 as input and a pair of 60's Triple Mica 6N1P-EVs as outputs.  I would also mention in my Zen Signature Monoblocks I've run a pair of the 7308s as inputs but recently have really enjoyed a pair of White label Amperex 6922s that would also probably work well in the CSP3.  I tried a pair of Orange Globe Amperex 6922s and they were harsh and edgy compared to the older White Labels...I was really quite surprised at the difference.  It may have been that the Orange ones needed more break in.  Happy Rolling.  Mark.

I'll be interested in your impressions of the Green label 6922s and the white label 7308s.  I personally have found the White label 6922 and 7308s comparable...the 7308s a little more focused/detailed and the 6922 maybe a little warmer with less high end energy...these are impressions and not A/B comparisons.  I use both tubes as well as the white label 6DJ8 in my Zen Signature Monoblocks...I like them all but each has it's own characteristics. Mark.

PS...Orange,  I should add the besides the stock inputs Steve sent with my Torii MK IV, the only inputs I've used is a pair of Military Spec Amperex White labeled 7308's...never 6922s.  So maybe your findings will be different than mine with the tubes in the Zen Signature Monoblocks which is the only place I tried the Orange Globe 6922s.

PSS...I looked for when I purchased my pair of 1968 orange globes...it was Feb. 2015 for $42 plus 4.95 S&H.  Ebay doesn't save the descriptions past 5 months or so but I seem to recall the seller thinking these had not been used before, true NOS...the gold pins did look unused.  So I do think they would improve with break in...I pulled them after only a few hours.

Hopefully they will better the nationals and gold lions. Cheaper then both of those for me.