Hey everyone,

I replaced the crossover leads on my OBs with the WE 16ga wire on Saturday morning.  The outgoing wire looked like 14-16ga stranded copper, so no drastic changes in construction.  However, I've already been very impressed with the changes I'm hearing.  It seems to bring more body and richer tone to the table, making the previous leads sound lean and tonally inferior by comparison.  Detail is the same.  This wire doesn't seem to overdo anything, and yet doesn't seem to lack anything.  We'll see how it settles in but I doubt it will regress in any way.  I loathe the term "musical" but what can I say, I wouldn't knock anyone who describes this product as such.  Even at $1.39 per foot, I think this is great value.

I ran them parallel at first, but ended up putting 25 twists in each 5ft pair.  I don't know if this is too many or not enough.  I researched twisting benefits and techniques prior to doing this and didn't find a good resource, except one AVS thread that basically said there's no reason to do it. (actually I find it difficult to find any AVS thread that supports anything we audiophiles typically do)  At least some twists would tidy up things behind the speakers.  In the end I did hear something but am hesitant to stick my neck out and explain it, but if I had to I'd say increased focus.

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There is so much truth in that. I almost got thrown out of a thread for suggesting flash drive sounded better than a spinning disc in my Oppo Blu-Ray player. I wrote Oppo with my findings and they absolutely agreed with me and said it was all about jitter (which you know that I knew already since I'm always preaching it).

After posting my E-mail from Oppo, suddenly everyone in the thread ignored me.

I've had other forums say that Paul from PS Audio should be jailed for the snake oil he's peddling - and we'd be burned at the stake for our findings when we tested the two digital cables at Palo's house.

But then, I'm not a fan or believer of little pillows in corners as bass traps, nor magic stones that you place in your room or around your cables. Other forums at that end of the spectrum and they scare me as well.

At least here at Decware, when someone proclaims something, we listen and nod in appreciation of their findings - and maybe see if we can replicate it ourselves and/or research it more.

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I still need to run some A/B with my Roomtunes "pillows".  I know you loathe them Eric I installed them and noticed a lot less boom after testing one track, but haven't played with them since.

Speaking of bass, has anyone else noticed impacts to bass after twisting the WE wire?  My bass was so visceral this afternoon.

I burned in #16 WE wire (red outer "cotton" and white insulation) 190 hours in my workroom system. Then I put silver solder on the ends to make them easier to handle and protect the tinned copper strands. I had 8 wires, 2 -10' pieces/connection (2 x 16 = 13 gauge) for burnin.

I have been trying things in my main system for a week off and on with no ultimate conclusions yet, so have not commented. But there are questions in areas I have explored so maybe some feedback...My references are Synergistic Research Element Copper with UEF tuning bullets, Torii MKIV to HR-1s. This system is tuned with EQ, balancing what room treatments don't fully address, so the frequency balance is quite good... Since the bass is not over-saturating the sound, the differences in bass presentation from cables are pretty obvious.

With large single wires I have experienced distortions and smearing attributed to “skin effect” and interference, so came to appreciate an equal gauge made up of smaller wires, usually twisted, both contributing to cleaning up cable sound. As to ultimate size, it seems dependent on the metals used, insulation, wire length, geometry, connections...lots of things. Also, how much do speaker efficiency and impedance (4 ohm is twice as resistant as 8 ohm), and amp power play into optimal wire size? Since these can add up to big variables...“one size fits all” for ultimate sound seems unlikely.

I began with one WE wire per connection. Compared to the SR cables I lost signal...quieter from top to bottom, though the sound was nice...warm but open, friendly... comparatively, there was some midrange emphasis, sometimes revealed as hardness, clearest with loud horn parts. Being leaner, I missed bass power and tonal density. The HR-1s really start to sing with stronger power/signal. Also, to a point, the denser signal makes low volumes sound more complete.

Adding the other WE wire, now two per connection, the attenuation was not particularly noticeable...denser tonal delivery, more dynamic sound with deeper bass, more midrange power, increased upper mid/high presence...

Compared to the SRs the untwisted double WEs were still a little dark and undefined, especially low down, and still a little too much midrange emphasis for me; I suspected this was due in part to another issue, less fine detail to round out the edges; also less “black” emptiness, for sound to come out of. But the SRs went through loads of exploration using state of the art materials and tech, and the sound and price reflect that.

I twisted the WE for each connection pretty tightly...55 for the 10 foot run. Clarified across the spectrum, it was articulate and dynamic, but the midrange being clearer, partly from increased bass articulation reducing masking...there was too much mid edge for me, again hard to listen to some dynamic horn parts played loud.

So I took out about half the twists, now 24. This softened/warmed things nicely. Compared to no twists I hear a more open feeling, increased differentiation of instruments, more feeling of dynamics, and the bass/low mids are full with nice definition...also more fine detail.  

It seems these cables are a bit less about “transparency,” than atmosphere. Though portraying instruments quite nicely, aspects of detail, particularly fine detail, empty space, dynamic contrasts, and bass power/definition are the primary areas they don't come up to the SRs. But their interestingly revealing, sort of unique window into the music remains compelling.

The SRs sound warm and rich without a sense of a bass/low mid darkness, or any speed or detail sacrifice. Powerful bass, sweet mids, exceptional layered detail, differentiation throughout, and authentic timbre...They just seem to let it all through...no cable. I have not heard revelation/transparency to this level before...so an unfair comparator, but also a great objective.

That said, the WE share tonal similarities with the SR, nice definition, a bit warm, musical and revealing. I keep “reaching for” micro detail, but they are still revealing.

Then the synergy thing. Pal and Syd both seem to have great affection and no reservations, single wires clearly being very satisfying in their systems.

Not as easy for me the way my system and room are, but that “air of mystery” Syd described, I agree, they do reveal a lot of what is tucked away in the recording, pulling us into the musical event. The soundstage here is defined enough while having a slightly dreamy atmosphere from how the space between and ambience is revealed.

The tendency to mids being a little rigid, in part from missing textures from fine detail, are what I am working on. Since the twists seem good, I kept thinking, add some silver.

I had some 16 gauge teflon wire for a power cable....cryo'd silver plated stranded copper. I twisted one of these into each cable run, now 3 – 16s, or 11.2 gauge per connection. It is hard to say how this will end up, this wire being new. I found them bright and stiff at first, but with about 20 hours, they are warming/smoothing up. And I don't think teflon is that easy to burn in so imagine more smoothing and complexity to come.

Everything was brought closer to the SRs, further increased tonal density, better textures, more complete space, ambience and soundstage definition... and all else that comes with increased black, detail and detail complexity.  Interestingly, after some burnin, as I compare this configuration, they feel louder than the 2 WEs alone, more spacious and empty, with more dynamics. They are still slower and less quiet than the SRs, but quite good. The silver theory seemed to work, but I wonder too if it has something to do with another wire twisted in, a cleaner signal..... All these things point to less cable attenuation also. There is less hardness though still a little hard/rigid for my tastes. Just a little. I suspect this might smooth with more burnin on the silver/copper but can't say for sure yet.

I wonder about maybe a smaller silver on copper wire, or a length of small gauge pure/soft silver wire and extra sized teflon tubing for insulation with air. With 2 WE, I imagine this could really be good. Maybe even 3 WE 16s would be good.

Still exploring, no solutions, I put back in the SRs and feel some relief. Amazing cables here. I am not done with the WEs though. I think these wires have quite compelling traits, and for me, are worth digging in and exploring more.

Thanks Will, thats quite a run through and I`d have put the SR`s back in for a reality check and well earned rest . Back to base and an exceptional cable by the sound of it. It`s good to have a yardstick to  measure by.
I didn`t want to experiment further but will add 10 twists each to my 3ft pair this evening. Just strapping them together tightened the sound up so adding some twists wont hurt and may be discernable.
As you say there are many variables and I suspect if I tried the SR`s there`d be a lift in every dept.
It`s kinda funny, you mention horn accentuation. Yes I know what you hear. Now...I put that down to bite or attack and with the bite, quicker projection. It reaches the ears a little quicker from where the horn, or cymbal clash is on the sounstage. I dont know if thats good, more natural or something else.
Bass , pretty much album dependent. I have been getting very strong bass.
lol, I`m terrible, I`ll argue black is white.  Suffice to say the bass and horn observations are as I say and as you sum up they are intriguing.

So I got to wondering about solder sound. I cut it all off, re-stripped, and twisted. I think it made a difference...a little more revealing with a bit more texture, ambient info, shimmer, etc. It is hard to compare cables when there is work time to change something, but I think this is real

Will, I'm not sure if this is what you are talking about but I made some speaker cables using dead soft pure silver in oversized Teflon jackets.   I followed this site: http://www.laventure.net/tourist/cables.htm

The idea of using oversized Teflon is that it protects the wire while acting like air.

I got round to comparing my Townshend Isoldas to the WE`s this evening. One whole album and 5 tracks on different records.
The Isoldas come in around $800.00 2m and $1600.00 3m.
The Isoldas played the album and tracks first and the WE`s were swopped in after each take.
They are different.
Half way through the album the Isoldas warmed up and I forgot the WE`s. John Martyn and crew sounded great again, the way I remembered. A feature bass player and delicate interesting drums and other arty touches. Layers. Lovely.
WE`s would have a job.
Staight off there was more air to Martyns voice. Easy to notice. Cymbals sounded thinner but more metallic. Now it gets tricky. Bass was all there when you listened for it, same for drums, and when there was a pronounced wallop on the bass tom you could hear the timbre and air. Then the WE`s did their stuff. The music started coming from everywhere but was all seperated. It was like pop ups of detail, female harmony, drum rolls, then the bass does something, then theres a guitar drifting in and out. Not politely held together like the Isoldas and presented
Then a track by B. Evans. Nice and polite from the Isoldas. WE`s had the odd harmonic coming from the piano sustain that Isoldas didn`t pick up. Bill sounded livelier. Backing drums were both good but again the cymbals had more realistic tang on the WE`s. bass was good on both, the Isoldas more polite. The WE`s more gritty.
I thought I`d try some hard Coltrane and cued up side one of "Live at the Half Note"
The Isoldas again polite, and Coltrane sounded not as he should. The instruments drop out one by one and he goes int his `sheets of sound` for a long solo. The Isoldas made him sound not really up front enough. WE`s he was louder, more the right ring to his sax.
Then it occured to me what the WE`s were doing. They had removed a veil. Yes that old veil we thought we were all finished with.
All made sense.
More air to the voice, cymbals not so thick, more detail, Coltrane up front and searing.
Last up JJ cale. Cajun Moon. Isoldas lovely, very nice. WE`s just get into it more. More live more air.
The WE`s aren`t the last word in bass but the bass lays down a floor better so you get more atmosphere. Mind you JJ`s bass player is sounding pretty good. He must want me to take notice.

Archie,
For some reason your link has a ftp:// in front of it when you click it.
I had the same problem as Will and noticed the error in the actual link called by the one posted.

Always one to have a go when the price is right I just ordered 50ft of 30g .999 silver wire. Just got to find the cotton tubing at a good price.
Archies link and as Will thinks a touch of silver. I dont know where it`ll lead.
It`ll keep me out of mischief....

Archie, I read that the dialectric for teflon is 2.0 and cotton 1.3. Oversize teflon would be more air....the wire has more room, the room being air.
The cotton costs more than the silver wire !
Still dont know why I`m buying it but for £16 for 50ft it`s worth trying something.
i/c`s could back on the menu as well.

I went for some cotton sleeving Will. Two lengths of this. It`s a bit wide but I think it`ll be ok, and the silver can breath. I might even get teflon inside it if it`s too floppy. I`ll have a look for 5ml teflon. Just got to be carefull of kinking.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120705040811?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=S...

All quiet here now?

I must say I have been using the single run WE16ga and 2 pairs of the Belden 8402/Switchcraft in my system for the last month and has not sounded better. For a grand total of $110 for all of it. Quite amazing. I pulled at least $4k+ in WyWires from my system.

Pathos Classic One MKII, CA Emotion, CMB Satisfy Carbon Arm, AT AT33PTG, Heed Quasar Phono, Chord Qute HD DAC, Usher CP6371

I thought I'd come to this thread and see if there was anything I hadn't read.  Everyone here reports loving the WE 16g wire.  Well, I tried a 10 ft, loosely twisted pair of red/black and was totally underwhelmed.  It's been a while but as I recall the bass was thin and treble/high midrange was edgy.  And as some know, I have a particular aversion to a hot high end.  No, I didn't allow a proper burn in...I didn't see how they could improve enough to please me.  I was hoping to find the Holy Grail for 43 Bucks...maybe next time.

Anyway, what made me think of this thread is that I have re-purposed the WE 16g wire.  Today I used it to hook up my Omega Deep Hemp Sub to the Torii MK IV in place of what I'd been using that didn't allow for a solid connection of the spades of the Nanotec cables I'm currently trying.

So is everyone still GaGa over the WE?  Or have some of you tired of it and moved on?  Mark.

PS...reading some of the older posts, I see quite a few are using the belden interconnects with the WE wire.  i'm using Steve's DSR II between the CSP3 and the Torii MK IV and a Grover's ZX+ between the ZP3 and CSP3...maybe that has something to do with my experience.  Regardless my investigation into the WE wire is over.  They are happy where they are now.

Still using the WE16 for speakers, bi-wired, down to 5 foot runs from the bridged amps.
I doubt I will change it out since it sounded so much better than my older wire and my ears aren't as picky at 60 as they used to be....  :)

I`m still using the WE16g as main speaker wire, about 4` runs, untwisted but side by side using small heat shrink pieces to hold the two lengths together. Totally satisfied with the sound and thank god I wont have to be tempted into trying different cables even though there will be cables out there which may make me ponder and therefore perhaps get into sp cbl rolling. aaargh, no thanks. I have another 30` wrapped up unopened.
I did find the Belden cable but the shipping is more than the cable.....but not totally out of the ball park so it`s one for the future.
Yeah the WE is a cabl that has left the music to flow. The price is immaterial but a very satisfactory outcome.
Mark, it`s not for me to imagine how a `hot` sound can actually sound in the biting treble region though I kind of get it. Whenever I do get some piercing stuff I say to myself that thats how the engineer wanted it etc, etc. When Miles drills into me, and I guess your Chet Bakers horn, it would be as at a concert. Those splashy symbals can be a pain on some recordings. Those I just have to suck up till hopefully the next track eases up a bit. Having `super` def tweeters ; on paper I`d love that but in pactice I dont know. I thought all tweeters went high and loud.
If it were happening to me to the point of distraction I might try some thin foam over the front of the tweeters. I know some of you use different resistors somewhere in the circuit which has me very slightly bemused.
I`m only putting in my twopence worth as I know the WE`s should be good for all, being smooth and neutral.
Syd

Syd, I don't know.  Maybe I'll give the we another try sometime.  How long did burn in take or was the WE wire immediately pleasing to you.  I think I've come to the conclusion that copper wire maybe with a little special sauce is what I need.  I've been making tube and cable changes so at this point it's hard to say what is causing what but the Nanotec cables that Will loaned me seem to be closer to what I need. They are copper dipped in shark liver oil that's got a tiny amount of Gold and silver particles in the oil suspension....they come in two different cooper formulations one is for the Hot leg. I still need to try them in my second system.

Will, your capacity for experimentation amazes me.  Anything more than a tube roll is a major under taking for me taking days, weeks or sometimes months of saying I'll do it before it happens.  So you have for each speaker...one pair of WE wire like me, then you add 6 other wires of various metals? Those must be some Garden Hoses.  One question...these nanotec cables, what is the Gauge as used?  After your post here last night, I read some of our prior correspondence.  I just want to thank you for your generosity and patience.  Until later folks,  Mark.

PS...Just thinking out loud here.  I think my goal is to have a relatively inexpensive speaker cable that does not accentuate the high end as silver may do.  I also want to retain detail and have adequate bass performance...I would consider this what folks here call a "Neutral" or "Balanced" speaker cable...correct?

I may also need to consider trying interconnects that are mainly cooper.  I thought I liked Steve's DSR IIs but they are all silver.  The Grover Huffman interconnect I  recently acquired, when it replaced the DSR II between the Torii and CSP3 didn't seem to make things better for me....maybe even worse.  I put the Grover between the ZP3 and CSP3...replacing a copper, Zu Audio Gedes interconnect.... it seems to do well there.    

On the Grover interconnect...it contains copper, silver and aluminum ribbons so this may explain my impression.  Below is from Grover's web site...

"A New Revolutionary Design, pure copper, silver and aluminum ribbons suspended in air tubes. Eliminating all skin effect.

Utilizing my custom passive Carbon, Tungsten, Nickel shield that Electro-magnetically focuses the signal minimizing distortion, and interference."

Will, you have a knack for putting into words what I have experienced.  I really like the Nanotecs and think they'll be a winner.  I tried the Nirvanas in the Main system and didn't like them as much as the Nanotecs...they were brighter, edgier than the nanotecs.  I eventually put the Nirvanas in the second system and with the Zu Audio Souls they seem to do OK although I wouldn't call it an improvement over the Zu Libtecs.  I think the real test of the Nirvanas will be using them with the pair of Omega Alinco 7XRS speakers that are also in the second system.  The omegas have an extended high end that I have to tube roll a bit to tolerate. I also need to put the Nanotecs in the second system and try them with both speakers.

In regards to the Grover ZX+ interconnects...you are spot on in your description.  I hadn't been able to put my finger on it but you did.  I would describe them as being pushy and in your face compared to the Decware DSRs...this is your "Powered up and forward".  Putting the grover's between the ZP3 and CSP3 doesn't seem to cause this effect.  But I can't say that I like them better than the Zu Gedes...I'd have to put the gedes back in without other changes to figure it out.  

In regards to the belden interconnects, maybe but I don't do DIY work.  They are all cooper, right?  That's enough for now.  Thanks again,  Mark.

Mark, I have not heard these Beldon/Switchcraft ICs, so can't say how they sound to me, but I found a place you can get ready-mades. The ones tested in the article Beowulf linked way back when look like they have the gold/nickel RCAs. http://btpa.com/IC8402-XX.html

From Jeff's Place: http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=7325

"The Switchcraft SWC-3502A’s were not available from Yazaki-san’s parts provider, but the Switchcraft SWC-3502AAU’s were, so he used those. The Switchcraft SWC-3502A and Switchcraft SWC-3502AAU are essentially the same plug: they have in common a brass center pin, plug housing, and handle; with a nickel-plated center pin, plug housing, and handle on the 3502A; and a gold-plated center pin & plug housing, and nickel-plated handle on the 3502AAU. I thought the gold plated pin & plug housing with nickel handle made for a very attractive combination with the brown Belden 8402 microphone cable. I really like the Switchcraft SWC-3502AAU RCAs."

Will,  I'll be interested in your impressions. Does putting these together involve soldering?  I see having them assembled doubles the price but for a pair the price is still relatively low...about $65.  Mark.

PS...I just read the post before the one above...I think... no, I know you are right.  I have only tried three different interconnects...DSRs, Grovers and zu audio gedes.  I think during my next session I'll replace the silver DSR with the cooper gedes and see what happens.

Yes, I look forward to hearing the Beldons.

Mark,

At that store there is a minimum of 12 feet of the raw wire @ 39. With the four nickel/gold RCAs and shipping it was about 62. If I like them, I have enough wire for another pair, but if not the ICs were still 62....

If I had bought a made up 3 ft pair, it would have been about 78 shipped here (14.40 shipping).

Sounds like a good IC test. Hope the Zus are better than the Libtecs. Those were the first speaker cables I have tried that I just could not learn to like. I guess it makes sense they could be good with your Zu speakers though.

Bumping this up, Jeff has now made interconnects using the WE 16GA and has mentioned that they are more transparent then the Belden.  He has a really great step by step process on how he made his.

Click here: http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=7997

I am going to make up some 1M interconnects using the WE 16 wire and compare them to the Belden.  

I am still liking the Belden ICs with the WE 16g speaker wire.  I liked this combo from the beginning but I sense it has become better over time (or I have just gotten used to it.)  Its always been musical, now it seems a little smoother as well.

Kboe, I found the belden cable here..http://btpa.com/CA-0582.html.
Not a bad price but double for shipping overseas costs.