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April fools CDApS meeting (Read 143247 times)
Palomino
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April fools CDApS meeting
04/01/15 at 18:43:28
 
We decided to hold a weeknight meeting given the holiday and general lack of another weekend date where we were all available.

President Raven will be swearing in newcomer proggrob who graciously offers to host.  Rob has a dedicated room with treatments and an awesome system featuring a music server plus Hawthorne audio open baffles being driven by a ckc with balanced inputs.  Plate amps drive the auggies.

After we listen to Robs system we are going to test out my chord DAC with unbalanced outputs to see how it fares.  Then we are going to introduce more diffusion to Rob's room courtesy of raven's rolling diffuser lab. The question at hand will be whether the OBs soundstage can possibly be improved.

We hope to hear some great music and enjoying some good ol fashioned audio bs'ing.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #1 - 04/01/15 at 19:17:02
 
Great news!
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Lonely Raven
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #2 - 04/01/15 at 20:13:27
 
I'm really looking forward to tonight. It's been some rough times at work the past two weeks, and I'm so terribly unprepared for, but so badly needing a good listening session! I do have my diffusers packed and ready!

Next time I'll bring the ZMA and PS Audio DirectStream. Tonight, lets focus on criticizing...I mean, critiquing Rob's room!  :)

I'm honestly excited to be in another well treated room. I think he's going to be surprised what the mobile diffuser lab can accomplish, taking it up a notch or maybe even a big step. LOL
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Palomino
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #3 - 04/01/15 at 20:21:25
 
By the way, a shout out to tlarwa. We figured you couldn't make a weeknight but shoot me a note if you want to drive down.  

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ProggRob
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #4 - 04/01/15 at 20:33:52
 
This is the culmination of my audiophile life!
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ProggRob
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #5 - 04/01/15 at 20:42:16
 
Also, I just counted 123 emails trying to arrange a date and agenda for this meeting.  I'd like to give a shout out to Palomino and Raven for their dedication to the betterment of CDApS.
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Palomino
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #6 - 04/01/15 at 21:02:49
 
You are not alone anymore Rob.  We are here for you.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #7 - 04/01/15 at 22:15:05
 
Quote:
Also, I just counted 123 emails trying to arrange a date and agenda for this meeting.  I'd like to give a shout out to Palomino and Raven for their dedication to the betterment of CDApS.


Yeah, that's it...quantify just how unhealthy our addiction is....LOL

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Donnie
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #8 - 04/01/15 at 23:36:50
 
You big city guys with all of your fancy equipment.
Us cornfield dwellers are happy with a AM radio in the dash of our '66 chevy pick 'um up truck.
Have a good time!
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Ace-Tone
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #9 - 04/01/15 at 23:53:07
 
Sounds like a great evening planned...would like to hear how the "mobile gypsy-room treatment-medicine show"  goes. I am slowly treating/ working my room. Definitely has helped, but I know more is needed.
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lLance
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #10 - 04/02/15 at 01:46:40
 
Yes, also interested in the diffuser setup and for us Decware appreciaters many states away some pictures.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #11 - 04/02/15 at 03:08:51
 

You guys already know how I feel about diffusers and what they do. I'll let the new guy chime in and describe what we did tonight.

It was a very enjoyable, and educational evening. Progrob has a completely different sound than what I'm used to - it  was great hearing a system that so effortlessly imaged and had air in the music. Live recordings were seriously amazing.

I'll leave the rest to Palo and Rob - they are probably better at describing thing then I am anyways.
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Palomino
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #12 - 04/02/15 at 03:33:56
 
Many thanks to rob for hosting.  Great evening all around.

I am still packing to head up to michigan but in brief this was a case study for some audiophile textbook on the power of diffusers.  Even with just two diffusers placed at the secondary reflection points the soundstage grew, the mid range blossomed, and details increased.

It was also a case study on how different diffusers sound different.  In the end I liked the combo of wood and styrofoam diffusers.  The wood were smoother and did more for the mids but didn't accentuate the highs like the styrofoam.  Combined I think you got the best of both worlds.

So to answer the question of whether diffusers help good OB speakers the answer is yes, for sure.

More later if I get time.  I also took a picture.  We were so engrossed in things we didn't even think about pictures.  

P.S. The song we were most engaged by was a iTunes download.  Just sayin'
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ProggRob
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #13 - 04/02/15 at 05:15:32
 
Thanks Raven and Palomino for setting the stage.  I had a great time, and it was awe inspiring to watch this duo play various tracks and diagnose a system so quickly.  I learned a lot tonight, but with answers come even more questions.

The first thing that was confirmed for me is that I'm too close to my system to know what it is and isn't good at.  For that you need perspective.  And when you don't know other audiophiles or hear other systems you are essentially working with a sample size of 1.  That means no perspective.  Sure I can scour forums and blogs and read all the audiophile words that describe what we hear, but without real interaction and feedback it is next to useless.  These two moved me years down the road of what I might have accomplished on my own in just over 2 hours.

A bit of background: over the last 3 or so years, I've spent thousands of hours and dollars researching and selecting components for my system.  I've obsessed over details, value, reviews, and synergy, swapping equipment, and gotten everything "just so".  You can see what remains in my signature.  So, I think it's perfect right?  After tonight, there are things I can rest easy on, and others that will keep me up late.  Here my thoughts:

1) There is more to your amplifier/speaker relationship than how loud the amp can play your speakers.  Unfortunately we couldn't confirm this tonight, but Raven and Palomino brought up the possibility that perhaps my amp/speaker combo wasn't a solid match.  A fair assessment.  Relative to their experience, dynamics are recessed in my system.  In terms of SPL, my 2.3 watts are enough to drive my 97db/w/m Hawthorne Trios.  It plays plenty loud for me (not for Palomino and certainly not for Raven), but there seems to be more to it.  Yes, 2.3 watts will drive my speakers to 100 db.  However, how does it punch below that level?  Do the extra power reserves, though untapped, translate to a more dynamic sound?  I always thought that it was the circuit that contributed to dynamics, and so long as your power ratings were sufficient you'd be ok.  After all, what do watts you don't use get you?  "Grip"?  I've read all about it before, but reading Steve's page on which Decware amp to select doesn't seem to mention anything but volume considerations.  While we generated no first hand evidence that the ZMA or Torii will kick up dynamics vs. my CKCS, we'll find out soon enough at a future CDApS meeting.

2) I need to learn what my OB's can and can't do.  This becomes important because it determines precisely my upgrade path.  Here's what I learned tonight, starting with the negatives: they can exhibit sibilance, and they are quite "laid back" and are short in presence factor (midrange).  I actually never, ever noticed the sibilance before.  Once Raven pointed it out, I kept hearing it.  The positives: I have bass!  And, they have exceptional air and staging capabilities.  No surprises for me there but it was nice to hear from others.  There are other things to improve such as soundstage width and improving my speakers' "disappearing act", but I'm not confident enough to determine whether this is a drawback of my speakers or simply a matter of positioning and the room.  

3) My source components are fine.  I've been obsessed with getting the Schiit Yggdrasil, which is Schiit's upcoming Statement DAC.  I already started saving for it and would have been my next purchase if not for CDApS.  However, Palomino and Raven both thought detail was sufficient and in fact heard some things on recordings that they'd never heard before.  Here's my new take - a DAC upgrade, while a move in a positive direction, addresses nothing that my system cannot already do well.  Next.  

4) All Hail to the God of Diffusion.  Do I really need to say it?  Wow.  Diffusers at the 2nd reflection points turned a mildly impressed audience into a captive one.  I don't want to overstate things, but there was a pronounced increase in interest when those things went in.  Whether they styrofoam or wood, dividends were paid in midrange, sibilance control, musical interest and increased air and width of soundstage.  With a couple pairs of appropriate diffusers, would I care anymore what my speakers aren't good at?  I certainly wouldn't be over the near term.  The key takeaway tonight is that diffusers need to be my first priority.  I'm still shaking my head.

Thanks again for the great evening, gents.  Looking forward to the next one!!
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Lonely Raven
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #14 - 04/02/15 at 06:36:33
 

Rob touched on it, but I want to explore the diffusers a bit.

So, Rob's room is in his basement, it's a dedicated room - couch, TV/Monitor on the wall, rack of gear between two giant speakers, and some sound absorbers about. I walk in and the first thing I say is "this has a good vibe" - and to be honest, those speakers are somewhat intimidating! LOL

We listened to several tracks, some Rob recommended, and some Palomino and I know well. I was honestly amazed at how well the room and speakers were dialed in - I imagine it was a bear to get those giant beasts balanced with a 2 watt zen and 375WPC on those big subs! We spot right off the mids sound a bit buried; not just laid back, but a bit lost. The bass was as deep as you'd expect, but it didn't pop, and the high end had great air, but a bit a sibilance. Well balanced, but I felt like the speakers were holding him back a bit.

Then at about the same time, Palo and I feel a lull in our listening, and we pretty much at the same time decided it was time to deploy the diffusers. We were like 3 kids with boxes of Lego, the duffusers were out and in position, and I pressed play on the same track we just finished, and I have to say...I was just floored at how just a few (relatively) cheap diffusers could do so much to add air, detail and harmonic complexity, and most surprisingly bass punch! I had to stop the track and ask if I was imagining this, and I look over and pretty much see mouths hanging open. LOL  Yep, not my imagination.

Fast Forward to the end of the night, we're listening to Sara Bareilles - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (Live). We're listening with diffusers, and it was amazing how engaging it was. We stopped analyzing and the three of us just gazed into an imaginary stage. Of course, at this point it prompted me to say "OK, now ALL DIFFUSERS OUT!". And the sound went flat and muddled (comparatively - Robs system is anything but flat with all the air and space). The soundstage shrank, the vocals just got buried, the bass was deep but lost it's punch, and the music was just somehow less engaging. That cinched it - *this* is why I find room treatments, and especially diffusers so important.

The last two tests we performed were to see how big of an impact Rob could get if he only picked up *two pair* of diffusers (spoiler - it was enough of an improvement that he was ready to buy diffuses right then and there), and to see if the wood QRD 13 diffusers Palo built sounded better than the PI Audio foam diffusers. The result of that test was inconclusive; both diffusers sounded great, but different. The wood QRD 13 sounded "warmer" for lack of a better term. And the foam PI Audio diffusers seemed to diffuse better, but seemed to add more edge to the high end.

As Rob said, more answers, more questions. But my questions are far different than his.  ;)

I need to explore diffuses a bit more as I have some questions. Did the wood diffuser sound "warmer" because it doesn't diffuse into a high frequency like the more complex PI Diffuser? Or, is this more of a matter of the materials the diffusers are made out of? Many people believe that sound waves take on a tone of what it's reflected off of. So maybe the added edge/etched/sibilance from the foam diffusers aren't the high-frequency extension and detail they add, but simply the  foam imparting it's flavor on the reflected sound? More experimenting is required!

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Palomino
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #15 - 04/02/15 at 13:41:09
 
You guys really nailed it.  Nothing more to say except I agree.

I listened a little last night sans Raven's mobile diffuser lab.  He took them back unfortunately.  Still good, but not the same.  I think I need the combination to really help me hear "deep into the mix" as they say.

I didn't feel I was on my game last night, but Raven more than made up for it.  He was indeed the ringmaster.  "Stop"  "Siblance" "Flat" "OK, all diffusers out" "Same positions!"  It was like Touretts audio speak.

One other impression I'll add was I liked JRiver.  Nice solid interface and loved the little fade out when you stop a song.  If only it weren't winders based.  Rob said they had a Mac version.  I'd need to see how I'd control it from my phone.
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Fireblade
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #16 - 04/02/15 at 13:44:35
 
ProggRob,

For what it's worth, I replaced my DM945's (4 Ohms, 94 dB's) with Tekton Lore 2.0's (8 Ohms, 98 dB's). What I can summarize about the perceived change is this: Tangibly more dynamics, weight and power, with so much volume I can only go to 9:30 (max 10:00) O'clock now before I get ear-damaging SPL's, and this is with a 4.0 watts per channel Mini-Torii! Of course, I have a small listening room.

I've always suspected my amp was not having the chance to really breath when coupled with the lower sensitivity DM945's (which are great sounding speakers if coupled with larger amps), no reserve in dynamics for those sudden classical music passages which are intended to make you feel climax pressure.

When I purposely listen at lower than normal volume levels, all the details and weight are still there, allowing even to appreciate another aspect of music listening.

So, using an analogy with vehicles, the weight to power ratios are very important to feel times of response and acceleration ... Is not power per se, but the synergy between power and (in the case of audio) sensitivity levels coupled with full range single drivers.

LR,

About diffusers, I'm eager to try those. I've been distracted lately due to local power company distribution issues, but my next objective is to assemble DIY difusser panels. As I suspected, having them in first impact areas did not seem intuitive. I can easily accept the notion of having those at 2nd impact areas, as the absorption effect is very important in the initial sound wave, I feel.

I just need a few pointers regarding the most simple yet effective design pattern I should follow, and, in my case at least, I'll stick to styrofoam or equivalent synthetic materials first. Once the right design has proven right, I could give it a try by ordering some panels to a local woodshop.

In my room, full with absorption pannels, I get a very balanced and neat sound, but I miss some of the liveliness I had before (now it sounds better overall, for sure, without those booming and sibilant sounds about), which would make for the right combination to really imporove soundstage depth and width as well as PRATT.

I know now my DAC plus Mini Torii and Tektons are doing their fair share of contributions (sounding better than ever), so it's time to go beyond the good job offered by absorpion panels and into difussers.

Please give us some pictures to identify the patterns involved, will you?

Thanks and good job from the Chicago Decware Appreciation Group!
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Lonely Raven
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #17 - 04/02/15 at 14:48:02
 
Quote:
I didn't feel I was on my game last night, but Raven more than made up for it.  He was indeed the ringmaster.  "Stop"  "Siblance" "Flat" "OK, all diffusers out" "Same positions!"  It was like Touretts audio speak.


Geeze, I hope I didn't sound like the Sound Nazi! LOL I'm glad I was on last night, as tired and stressed as I have been with work, I was afraid I'd be an exhausted lump. But hey, when I have an idea of what needs to be done, let's get it done! I'm glad it provided us with clear results that we all agreed on - no doubt about how we felt.

Quote:
One other impression I'll add was I liked JRiver.  Nice solid interface and loved the little fade out when you stop a song.  If only it weren't winders based.  Rob said they had a Mac version.  I'd need to see how I'd control it from my phone.


I still have some PCs that are close to ready to go. I'm going to be selling them in the Classifieds, Craigslist, and eBay (if I have to use eBay) to help fund future projects. I'm happy to loan you one so you can see how the PC setup I use sounds on your gear.


Quote:
So, using an analogy with vehicles, the weight to power ratios are very important to feel times of response and acceleration ... Is not power per se, but the synergy between power and (in the case of audio) sensitivity levels coupled with full range single drivers.


That's pretty much what I was telling Rob last night. He's a really low level listener - I just think there is a synergy mismatch between his speakers and his wonderful little Zen amp. I kept saying I could hear the Decware in the setup, but there was a bit of a disconnect in the mids. I wish my ZMA wasn't in the shop, dropping that in would tell us if his speakers are holding him back, or if he just needs more horsepower. Late last night I listened to that Yellow Brick Road track several times, and I missed the air and big sound Rob has, but my dynamics and speed, even with a 17 year old 2 watt amp crushed his giant speakers. We'll diagnose his setup better on another visit, where I can bring the ZMA over, and Palomino can bring over his Monoliths. We'll see what combination works best in his room - I'd like to see him keep his giant speakers if they suit his listening style. But maybe he'll like a more traditional high efficiency two way - especially once we introduce some diffusers of his own in the room.


Quote:
Please give us some pictures to identify the patterns involved, will you?


I'll do better then that - I'll design them for you. You'll just need to figure out how to build them. I'm going to start another thread in the Room Treatment section of the Decware forum later this morning. I'll have some questions for you - and we'can use it as our build log.
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ProggRob
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #18 - 04/02/15 at 15:48:55
 
Fireblade - thanks so much for your feedback.  I won't be changing out my speakers any time soon but we'll see if another amp wakes them up.  I don't consider this a speaker sensitivity issue (options for improving upon 97db are limited anyhow), but rather that OBs are of a different animal vs box speakers and shoring up this weakness may require an extra punch.  

Quote:
For what it's worth, I replaced my DM945's (4 Ohms, 94 dB's) with Tekton Lore 2.0's (8 Ohms, 98 dB's). What I can summarize about the perceived change is this: Tangibly more dynamics, weight and power, with so much volume I can only go to 9:30 (max 10:00) O'clock now before I get ear-damaging SPL's, and this is with a 4.0 watts per channel Mini-Torii! Of course, I have a small listening room.

Quote:
but my dynamics and speed, even with a 17 year old 2 watt amp crushed his giant speakers


I'm starting to feel like I made a mistake getting rid of my Tekton Lores.  I replaced them with these OBs.  Maybe I just traded their problems for other problems and we can get this addressed with diffusion, but I'm feeling very remorseful at the moment.



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Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
Power: TWL 7+ and Digital, UberBUSS, Furutech Outl
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #19 - 04/02/15 at 16:07:31
 

Quote:
I'm starting to feel like I made a mistake getting rid of my Tekton Lores.  I replaced them with these OBs.  Maybe I just traded their problems for other problems and we can get this addressed with diffusion, but I'm feeling very remorseful at the moment.


Oh, no no no! Don't feel remorse. It's only gear! And think of how involved the three of us were getting into that one track last night? Seriously, that was great music!

It's all about compromises and what works for YOU. I don't want to seem like I'm pushing the efficient two way thing on you - You've got something special in your room, but you also have to work with it's drawbacks. Like I said last night, if you did switch back to box speakers, I think you'd be on an uphill battle from where you are now. You'd still have issues, just different issues, and IMHO, different sound.

So we'll drop the ZMA in your setup and see if we can wake those big speakers up with more grip, but similar volume levels. And we'll also swap your speakers for something that Palo and I have in stock (and don't mind transporting - my Blue Zu are *not* part of the mobile lab!), but with your amp, and see what works for *you*. That will give you an idea of what directions you want to go.

All of that is also assuming we're using diffusers in your room. I have no problems bringing the mobile diffuser lab over for this future amp/speaker test to help you figure out your upgrade path.

This is exciting for me. Since I'm stuck with my crappy L-shaped room, I need to live vicariously through you guys with your dedicated rooms!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #20 - 04/02/15 at 16:26:37
 
Fantastic. I wish I was there. Thanks for all the great input everyone. I will be playing with the 2 pair PI diffusors I currently have. Greg at PI mentioned adding acoustic foam to the back of the panels and placing them a few inches away from the wall...perhaps something that may improve EQ ?
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SE84UFO25, ZP3, Zstage, ZR2, ZSB, DM947, HERESY iii
VPI-Traveler2 +SS Zephyr MKIIIes.
Cambridge CXC. Schiit Bimby DAC
IC's Audio Envy, Decware, RAC-PC's, Mapleshade Dbl Helix+Spkr wires & jumpers
Blue Circle PLC FX2X0e, Herbies, GIK, PI Audio DIY treatment
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #21 - 04/02/15 at 17:27:56
 
Quote:
Greg at PI mentioned adding acoustic foam to the back of the panels and placing them a few inches away from the wall...perhaps something that may improve EQ ?


IMHO, it won't do a terrible bunch for absorption, because the waves really need to go through the absorber for a more broadband effect. But, it should help damp high frequency resonance inherent in the foam panel.

At least that's my speculation - I've still not received any measurements and specs from PI Audio. I'd love for them to measure the diffusers flat on a wall, and damped with a panel on the wall, as well as damped with a panel a few inches off the wall. Instead, we're going to have to muck around with this ourselves and see what we can figure out.

I'm working on damping my panels a bit this weekend. I'm hoping it removes the high-frequency hash I'm getting off these panels.

Again, good bang for the buck, great diffusion. But there is definitely something going on with the high end that I'm not sure I like. But for the money, I think everyone should have a couple of these thrown into their room! Seriously, 32 square feet of diffusion for $160 + $72 shipping is pretty amazing!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #22 - 04/02/15 at 19:19:01
 
Quote:
The last two tests we performed were to see how big of an impact Rob could get if he only picked up *two pair* of diffusers (spoiler - it was enough of an improvement that he was ready to buy diffuses right then and there), and to see if the wood QRD 13 diffusers Palo built sounded better than the PI Audio foam diffusers. The result of that test was inconclusive; both diffusers sounded great, but different. The wood QRD 13 sounded "warmer" for lack of a better term. And the foam PI Audio diffusers seemed to diffuse better, but seemed to add more edge to the high end.


This was another "a-ha" moment for me.  In my mind I had previously thought of diffusers in a one-dimensional sort of way, with no consideration on how different types/brands of diffusers would actually sound different.  That they had that much impact in order to hear a clear difference between designs was stunning.  Honestly, based on what I heard there is no reason not to go out and buy the PI Audio ones straight away.  My system doesn't have tremendous amounts of high frequency energy so for me it was equally enjoyable as the "warmer" sound of wood, just different in kind.  
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #23 - 04/02/15 at 19:46:32
 
Quote:
Oh, no no no! Don't feel remorse. It's only gear! And think of how involved the three of us were getting into that one track last night? Seriously, that was great music!

It's all about compromises and what works for YOU. I don't want to seem like I'm pushing the efficient two way thing on you - You've got something special in your room, but you also have to work with it's drawbacks. Like I said last night, if you did switch back to box speakers, I think you'd be on an uphill battle from where you are now. You'd still have issues, just different issues, and IMHO, different sound.


Sorry Raven, I had a moment of weakness.  No worries, carry on!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #24 - 04/02/15 at 21:42:42
 

No worries brother - I just know I can come on like a freight train when it comes to audio. Especially when the system is doing a great job of proving my theories right! LOL

Deep breath! Enjoy what you have. Unless you win the lottery or get a big inheritance in the next week...don't worry about it. Enjoy it! Maybe figure out what diffusers you want to go with.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #25 - 04/02/15 at 23:14:03
 
It`s all given me food for thought as well LR. Been doing a little digging. Is this about the blueprint for the diffusers ? 1 1/2" sq white wood. http://www.pmerecords.com/Diffusor.cfm
Or is your system different ? Maybe the wrong thread. I`ll check in to your `room treatment` thread for future progress.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #26 - 04/03/15 at 01:05:32
 
LR said:

I'll do better then that - I'll design them for you. You'll just need to figure out how to build them. I'm going to start another thread in the Room Treatment section of the Decware forum later this morning. I'll have some questions for you - and we'can use it as our build log.

Thanks for your kind offer. I'll be more tan willing to cooperate.

ProggRob said:

Fireblade - thanks so much for your feedback.  I won't be changing out my speakers any time soon but we'll see if another amp wakes them up.  I don't consider this a speaker sensitivity issue (options for improving upon 97db are limited anyhow), but rather that OBs are of a different animal vs box speakers and shoring up this weakness may require an extra punch.

You may be right, as I don't have experience with OB's, but, I thought about the vehicle analogy again, and to me, going from 2 to 4 watts makes a difference larger than the 1 dB diff in sensitivity, never mind the extra dB is also on this side of the fence!

I think there are wonderful speakers out there, but not all ready to tap the Super Zen potential, whether it is a matter of the nature of the impedance curve across frequencies or the lack of a resonant cabinet for most of the mid frequencies, an issue which may be critical at flea power levels. As LR pointed out, there are evident tradeoffs, but synergies are explainable through specs also.

I may be wrong.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #27 - 04/03/15 at 02:33:14
 
Fireblade said:

Quote:
I think there are wonderful speakers out there, but not all ready to tap the Super Zen potential, whether it is a matter of the nature of the impedance curve across frequencies or the lack of a resonant cabinet for most of the mid frequencies, an issue which may be critical at flea power levels. As LR pointed out, there are evident tradeoffs, but synergies are explainable through specs also.

I may be wrong.


I agree with you, Fireblade.  You raise a good point on the impedence curve, I may ask Mr. Hawthorne if he has one for me to examine.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #28 - 04/03/15 at 13:04:33
 
Quote:
It`s all given me food for thought as well LR. Been doing a little digging. Is this about the blueprint for the diffusers ? 1 1/2" sq white wood. http://www.pmerecords.com/Diffusor.cfm
Or is your system different ? Maybe the wrong thread. I`ll check in to your `room treatment` thread for future progress.


That's a 2D (2 Dimensional) diffuser - and they work well, but that's not what we're going to be working with here. 2D diffusers are quite lossy - because they don't reflect directly (but diffused) back into the room like a 1D diffuser does; they break up the sound and throw it pretty much everywhere. Which would be great if you were setup with wall to wall diffusers - That sound energy would eventually get back to you, via a secondary diffuser. But if you just throw a couple of those in a room, it's probably just scattering your sound into your absorbers.

The 1D diffusers keep all that energy in the room, and in an easy to figure out pattern. In fact, at frequencies above and below it's effective range, or at really hard angles, a 1D diffuser simply acts like a wall again. Very predictable. And if you wanted a little bit more attenuation out of a 1D diffuser, you could either angle it a bit, or add some foam strips to the bottom of a couple wells.

The cityscape style diffusers are however super, super easy to build. The QRDude software I mention in my other thread can also calculate 2D diffusers for you!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #29 - 04/03/15 at 15:47:25
 
Ok, I managed to get a hold of an impedance curve from Darrell Hawthorne on my speakers' mid-woofers.  These woofers roll off naturally around 50-55hz and are gradually replaced by the Radian compression driver between 800-2.5k hz.  My interpretation: The impedance starts to get too high for a 2.3w amp shy of 1000 hz, and in fact is already about 10 ohm at 650 hz or so.  I assume the curve looks a lot better for the Radian in the transition frequencies, but I'm already starting to see how this may be something to address.  



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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #30 - 04/03/15 at 17:26:36
 
Raven, I am on my phone so I can't type much but you might address the difference in the sound scatterers I had at the secondary position versus the qrd13.  

The skyline diffusers are time consuming to build.  Easier than qrd but take as much or more time.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #31 - 04/04/15 at 23:34:38
 
ProggRob....

I can shed a little light on the Hawthorne Audio Trio's - I own a pair.  I have the std. PSI 15" coaxial unit in mine.  IME this coaxial driver and/or the xover are just plain ole relaxed, laid-back and forgiving - and there's nothing you can do from an amplifier perspective to inject more life, presence and rez into them.  I have tried everything from flea watt SET's, to my Decware Torii, to 100 watts of Cary tube power, all the way thru arc-welding Krell class A/B up to 1000 watt Class D amps.... the speakers only get so "lively" and I just can't get them to go any further.  
But boy... do I love the open baffle bass.  My man-cave is about 2400 sq.ft. with a 9 ft. ceiling.. and these things make not only "quantity" of bass, but quality of bass as well, like I've never had in my room before.  Quite possibly the best I've heard.
Because of all my experience with other speakers, and speakers I currently own(Decware DM945's, Vintage Klipsch Chorus II's, Martin Logan Vista's, 3 sets of Audio Nirvana full rangers, Zu Omen and Tekton Lore S', to mention a few).. I got an idea how to bring life to the Trio's, and have embarked on a "modification" to my Trio's that I think will take them where I want them to be.  But I think this mod may be a bit amplifier dependent.. we'll see.  I need about 1 good Saturday uninterrupted to finish them up and fire them up and see how they sound.  If you would like to hear about what I'm doing - send me a PM.
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!
Reply #32 - 04/05/15 at 04:47:33
 
MadDog, my long lost brother....

First a rant: I am annoyed that this forum doesn't email notify me when someone responds, even when I elect to.  Ugh!

I will PM you, but first a reply for the forum.  I have had a variety of amps as well, and until this last CDApS meeting I never doubted my decision to ditch more powerful amps in the Atma-Sphere M60, Coincident Dynamo, Red Wine Signature 15.  I felt for a moment that I was shortsighted, like I should've seen the lack of dynamics problem coming with 2.3 watts on tap, but your post makes me believe that I wasn't crazy.  However, I still believe that diffusers along with something like a ZMA would make me forget about it.

I'm in a weird transition period when one wonders how to improve things, but in my heart I know I love the way my Hawthornes sound.  And that bass!  I'm with you.  May I mention that I love how many speakers you have?  If only I could... maybe someday.  I had the Tekton Lores but I wonder how you like the Lore S compared to the others in your stable?  One of the reasons I unloaded them was I wanted a bit more refinement, more "hi-fi", which I bet the S version addresses?

Rob
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #33 - 04/05/15 at 15:57:16
 
Here's where we hosted the meeting.  Thanks Palomino for the shot.

NOTE: You'll need to scroll to see the whole thing.

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #34 - 04/06/15 at 16:38:55
 

Rob, IMHO, the #1 thing I would try to address on your speakers, is the sibilance. I love the air and imaging those speakers have, but that sibilance of the compression drivers says anything but Hi-Fi to me.

My quick and dirty photo of your room - I tried for a panoramic, but I hurried it since we were packing up and heading out by the time I remembered to take a photo. Next time I'll do better.  :)

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #35 - 04/06/15 at 16:50:30
 
Thanks Raven.  I have thought about how to do this, and the best I can come up with is to try a different interconnect, likely from Triode Wire Labs.  This may ease that tendency, not to mention cost me very little to accomplish.  If you have other ideas please just let me know.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #36 - 04/06/15 at 17:40:23
 
Oh yeah, two other notes - I got word that my ZMA was a tube failure that took a diode with it. Only $80 to repair.

The other thing, regarding what Palomino mentioned above about the sound scattering devices vs diffusers.

Early on when i was trying to get Palo to test some diffusers in his room (I had already talked him into absorption panels), I suggested a half-cylinder style "diffuser" as a quick and dirty reflective panel. Something like this (from a Google search)



I use the term diffuser loosely with a device like this. It's really just a sound scattering device, and has no in depth mathematics or any timedelay. So it's fine for breaking up flutter echo or livening up a room, but that's about it.

When Palo installed a couple of these in his room, in addition to all the absorbers he has, he was able to place it to dial in this wall of sound with good, almost wrap around ambiance. When we added the foam PI Audio diffusers to the mix, we got increased micro detail and micro-dynamics, as well as all the spaciousness and wall of sound. It was quite amazing how all that detail came through, and that was only with two pair of Styrofoam diffusers. When we placed the poly-cylinder diffuser back in place, it just felt like that 3d space that was in the room, extending past the walls and around us, suddenly collapsed. It made us realize how much of a difference a properly build (even out of EPS foam!) diffuser is from all the pseudoscience "diffusers" out there.

It's a pretty huge upgrade for around $300! And took an already excellent room up to a whole nother level.    

In Rob's room, we put Palo's wood diffusers in the second reflection point, and got more detail, dynamics, and clearer bass. Swapping the PI audio Foam diffusers in their place, we also got more high end ambient queues, but also enhanced some sibilance (which I believe is in the room already).

As with anything else in audio, it all matters.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #37 - 04/06/15 at 17:51:52
 
Quote:
Thanks Raven.  I have thought about how to do this, and the best I can come up with is to try a different interconnect, likely from Triode Wire Labs.  This may ease that tendency, not to mention cost me very little to accomplish.  If you have other ideas please just let me know.


You wouldn't like any of my ideas. LOL

I'd probably be swapping out that tweeter - I'd buy some decent sounding but inexpensive silk dome, or the ribbon tweeter in the MG944 and seeing if I could mount it in place (in front?) of that compression driver.

I still want to bring over my MG944 and put them as direct replacement for your big OB and see what you think. I'll also have the ZMA back this week, so maybe we can have a brief, diagnostic CDApS meet?
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #38 - 04/06/15 at 18:00:14
 
Nice shot Raven,

Rob has me thinking about painting my room a dark color!

I'm game for a meeting.   I could bring the wood diffusers and Torii (although Rob is aiming higher with the ZMA).
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #39 - 04/06/15 at 21:10:40
 
One of us.... one of us.... gooble gobble gooble gobble!

If he got a ZMA, you know what that would mean for you, Palo....so much for the kids college fund...College is overrated anyways!

We might have to change from Chicago Decware Appreciation Society to, the Chicago Decware Elitist Mystery Amp Society. Smiley

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #40 - 04/06/15 at 21:56:13
 
Quote:
If he got a ZMA, you know what that would mean for you, Palo....so much for the kids college fund...College is overrated anyways!


Well everyone, we've arranged another CDApS meeting for Friday, April 10.  I will hear the ZMA magic for the first time.  This is soooo dangerous for me.  I've already been scheming since last Wednesday how I buy one.  I seriously hope the changes I hear are minimal enough so that I'm not tempted, but I seriously doubt it.  Damnit.

Quote:
You wouldn't like any of my ideas. LOL


You're right, I don't!  :)  
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #41 - 04/07/15 at 00:32:21
 
Quote:
You're right, I don't!  :)  


Dude, we gave you fair warning!

#1 I'm an enabler extraordinaire

#2 I trust my gut, and I tend to be right.


Let's see what happens on Friday. Palo and I are already planning deployment of gear - have the drop zone ready! aahhhh! LOL

Edit To Add: I'll hopefully be seeing (hearing!) what Steve has cooking in the lab! That's not good for anyone.  ;D


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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #42 - 04/07/15 at 04:03:52
 
10-roger on the ranting... this site used to notify me of PM's, but hasn't for quite some time.  I checked my preferences in case they had gotten changed somehow(they hadn't) and added Decware as a trusted sender to my email provider... still no go.  I don't remember what domain forum PM email notifications come from - been too long since I saw one - they may come from a non-decware named domain.... anybody know?

ProggRob.... responded to your PM a bit ago
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #43 - 04/07/15 at 18:38:43
 
Raven, I'll be ready!  I have no problem getting input, the goal is to make my system the best it can be within a reasonable budget.  I hold no grudges and acknowledge that CDApS will be occasionally rife with temptations and peer pressure of both intentional and unintentional varieties.  Seriously, no problem.  

Regarding speaker modifications though, I really do not have interest, and here's why:

a) These speakers were thoughtfully designed and are loved by a great number of people.  I researched them heavily prior to purchase and it took a lot of effort/resources to purchase them.  Granted, they are not all things to all listeners (as any transducer or loudspeaker), but I will not write them or any of their sub-components off without giving due diligence and serious effort to provide the signal, positioning and room environment they need to succeed.  No defensiveness here, just being honest.    

b) Modifying speakers, crossovers, mounting things in strange and unintended places, is not my cup of tea.  I know nothing of electrical design nor do I intend to turn my Hawthorne's into a learning experiment.  The most I would do is replace the 15" woofer with a full ranger because it's straightforward and easy to accomplish by a layman.

With that being said, I cannot wait to evaluate the impact of 20x wattage.  I will soon need to define my personal price:performance ratio because aside from room treatments, cabling, accessories, improvements will NOT come cheap from here on out.

Rob
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #44 - 04/07/15 at 18:47:40
 

That's where you should be talking to Palomino - he had almost equal to sound, and much better soundstage than I do, for less then what I paid for my ZMA alone!

I'm pretty sure he's blown past that ZMA price point since then, but his system and room have also evolved.

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #45 - 04/07/15 at 18:51:49
 
I have no doubt that we can collectively assist each other in economical improvements.  But perhaps Palomino would be a bit more helpful LOL

Relative to item "a" in my previous post, I also acknowledge that if I ever decided to unload the Hawthorne's, the market for 5.5' tall, 27' wide speakers with 1080 square inches of radiator surface is very small.  I best keep them as long as I can!

Rob
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #46 - 04/07/15 at 18:53:30
 
Including everything, including all my room treatments, I am now past the cost of a new ZMA.

When my kids say "Dad, what do you mean there is no college money left for me to go to school.?"  I will show them your picture.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #47 - 04/08/15 at 00:17:06
 
I share your pain ProggRob... and the realization that no one speaker is the perfect speaker for all rooms, all music, all personal preferences, etc.  I chased the "elusive ONE" for decades.  Finally concluding, it does not exist!  And therefore I now have 6 different main pairs of speakers that rotate in and out of the dedicated man-cave system depending on my mood and what music I'm into "at the time".  As I've shared with you before, I have some Hawthorne Trio's.  No plan to part with them, love what they do.  Also don't plan to part with my "stats" or any of my monitors.  I may part with the vintage Klipsch's... they don't do anything differently or better than some of my others, so no need to keep more than one sample of any particular "flavor"....  But I do have ideas developing on paper for two new DIY models to experiment with - Thanks to RandyinCaintuck.... !
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #48 - 04/08/15 at 04:31:57
 

Quote:
When my kids say "Dad, what do you mean there is no college money left for me to go to school.?"  I will show them your picture.


I'm just waiting for the time where the wives start saying "I don't want that Eric guy coming over here anymore...."   Grin

ZMA is back at the Raven's Haven. I'm just getting her warmed up again. I laughed out loud when Steve said he tested the tubes and the KT66 and one pair of input tubes was "on the weak side of good". Because you *know* I've had other tubes in here...how many friggen hours have I burned on the ZMA in the past year an a couple months!!

I have to say, I love the little Zen amp, she's got a special sound. But the ZMA just pleases me in all ways. Even at the low level I'm listening now, the "guts" and immediacy the amp has is great. Listening to some Mazzy Star as I've been in that mellow, melancholy mood lately and it's wonderful to have my sound back!

I did get a bit of a peek behind the curtains at Steve's shop. We mostly talked networking stuff - I think I may have talked Steve into getting a NAS. LOL  He's very focused on these new output transformers, the UFO ones he's been talking about. He's really excited about this and put all other projects on simmer while he's working on transformers. And yes, I already volunteered my ZMA for testing if the project ever grows that far along.

I also got a few minutes with the Decware DSD player - it sounds good, but I couldn't really evaluate it without a baseline listen with my demo tracks and/or direct comparo with my PS Audio DirectStream. From the few minutes of Reel to Reel capture I heard off SD, it had a lot of that liveness that I've heard from Tapes at Decware, but without the high end tizziness that a fast tape seems to have. I don't know of that's Steve's doing or just how it sounds on DSD. His white HR-1 simply disappeared and there was some great imaging between the speakers - probably the best imaging I've heard at his place in the past couple years of visits. No "wall of sound", but the tracks probably weren't conducive to that. I'd like to give his DirectStream player a better listen at a later date with tracks I'm familiar with.

Anywho, back to listening to my ZMA. Time to wind down a really long day.

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #49 - 04/08/15 at 10:55:02
 
So glad your ZMA is back! I too love the sound of my little Zen, but similarly there is a magic to my Toriii that I just can't be without any longer. Just so full and real, and breathing deeply in a way the C can't manage.

Interesting first impressions of the Zen player. It's about what I expected. . . and I'm glad that you weren't just floored in the way when you first heard the tapes or that prototype amp. Maks me thnk the DirectStream is going to hold its own in front of Steve's player, or that I would prefer its signature. Hope you get to experience a real comparison in time.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #50 - 04/08/15 at 17:59:55
 

It could still floor me; it certainly didn't suck!  :)

I did suggest to Steve I'd like to do a comparo with the PS Audio DirectStream - so hopefully I'll have more on that later.

I will say this, Steve's recordings of tape sounded damn good. If I did spend more time with the Decware DSD, I'd want to hear the original tape with the DSD side by side to see how close the recording is to the Master. The only tape I really have a mental reference of is the Twins soundtrack (when Steve floored me with Tape), and that wasn't what was playing last night. One of the tracks he did play had me stop everything and say "I need a copy of this!!" - so yeah, it certainly didn't suck. I see why Stone is crooning about how good this player is.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #51 - 04/08/15 at 19:03:17
 
Okay. I'll stop reading this forum now while I still can. Smiley I'm so tired of the merry go round, and I haven't had luck with Steve's front ends before or what he thinks is a great source so I may pretend I have never heard of the ZDSD. LOL
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #52 - 04/10/15 at 03:46:38
 
Just FYI - I won't be happy till I have a room like this (except with much taller ceilings.

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #53 - 04/10/15 at 12:03:35
 
At the pace you have me going, my room is not that far away Smiley

Looking forward to tonight.  I am going to try to get off early enough to make it there close to opening ceremony time.   Ideally we'd lay down a baseline with the zen, then go to the Torii and end with the ZMA.   Like a wine tasting.

I think Rob's interest in the Torii is primarily in the treble shunt so going out of order would not be crime.

Are you still bringing ravens rolling diffuser lab?  I can bring my qrd's if my wife gets home on time.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #54 - 04/10/15 at 12:49:45
 

Yeah, I boxed up *both* boxes of diffusers. And I just boxed up the ZMA and it's new spring feet that finally made it from China. I have to say, I'm impressed with these springy feet - they have the feel of solid, well thought out construction....but we'll see if they really do anything positive to the sound.  :)

I'm also a little hesitant to bring the 944, but I'll see what I can do. I know that was part of the testing tonight - but I"m afraid I'll bump them or something. Maybe I need roadie cases for all my gear? LOL

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #55 - 04/10/15 at 15:15:34
 
If I get more ambitious, I will bring the PPP.  I think Rob should hear his zen on one of these regenerators.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #56 - 04/10/15 at 16:51:55
 

The things I do for audio, and my Audiophile friends.

MG944 wrapped up in blankets, *Four* pair of PI Audio diffusers, Two name brand 2' X 4' X 2" absorbers, ZMA in it's case, and all the accessories to make the ZMA go.

CDApS meet is on tonight!


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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #57 - 04/10/15 at 16:58:36
 
Palo - Lraven,  I'm digging this forum. Please keep the info flowing. It'll be interesting to hear about tonites listen/impressions...experiments Mwahhahahaaaa.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #58 - 04/10/15 at 16:59:46
 
Your dedication knows no bounds!  I can appreciate how much of a pain in the a$$ it must be to load your car up like that; CDApS thanks you.  I am really looking forward to tonight.  It's gonna get loud!

I've made some tweaks to my system since the April 1st meeting.  The most significant was unplugging my Schiit DAC from the UberBUSS and plugging in directly to the wall.  I'll be damned if the sound didn't get a shot in the arm.  Definitely not a "cure all", but I think that the improvements are right where we thought I needed them: midrange presence and dynamics.  LR and Palomino will help me confirm tonight that I'm not crazy.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #59 - 04/10/15 at 17:11:46
 

Power is a weird thing. You think you've got all this killer gear, all hooked up how you like it...and you find some piece in the mix is throwing noise at the other devices, or a weird ground loop or something.

That's why I worked so hard running Zen Styx style wire through my walls, home run back to the panel via conduit. And why I got this spool of wire to add a few more circuits for my Home Theater setup. On top of the P10 and Solo outlet and all that...The only thing I think I can do better right now, is hire an electrician to add extra ground rods to the house, further lowering the resistance to ground and giving any line noise an easy place to go!

Well, there are other things I can do, but I don't have $5k-$10k for whole house balance power.  :)


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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #60 - 04/10/15 at 21:35:15
 

So, I'm pinging some of my Facebook friends to see if anyone knows of a shop that can make me a plastic part for a sound diffuser I've designed. one of the guys of course mentioned that I check out Alibaba and see if something like what I need is already being made in Taiwan or China or something. (I know it is, I just can't find it anywhere). So out of curiosity I'm flipping through Alibaba, and I see an ad with a curious photo.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/QRD-diffuser-wall-panels-and-3D_1801691672...

Yeah, those bastards are using one of My photos, of My diffusers I designed and built in My garage!!







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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #61 - 04/11/15 at 00:15:27
 
Guys,

I realize this might be slightly off topic, but I have been doing a bit of experimentation with my room treatments.  I have come to the conclusion that diffusion works better for me at the first reflection point (vs. absorption).  It's significant.  I get a wall of sound, better depth, clarity and imaging with diffusion.   I currently have absorbtion at the second reflection points, but I wonder if the soundstage would be even better with diffusion.  

Thanks for pushing me to do this experiment again.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #62 - 04/11/15 at 12:34:23
 
I was hoping I’d be the first one to weigh in on the latest CDApS meeting we held last night.  Primarily because some of the bad feelings I had about how we kind of clobbered Rob last meeting with our critical comments about his system.  I mean here this guy had spent countless hours working on his passion and we dissected it and critiqued it like a dead frog in a high school biology class.

But, in our defense, we came into that meeting with high expectations for his rig in general and his Hawthornes in particular.  And while we liked aspects of his sound and those speakers, he just didn’t have the synergy going.

I knew something was different this time just walking down the stairs to his room.  I thought, “hmmm, this certainly sounds better.  Was I just in a bad mental state last time?”

Rob had made just a couple simple tweaks which cost him nothing.  He moved his speakers, listening couch and most importantly plugged his DAC directly into the wall, bypassing his conditioner.

To say he had synergy this time is an extreme understatement.  This was indeed a hol-y sh*t moment for me and I think for Eric too.  I heard layering of sound like I have never heard from a Decware based system.  Gone was the sibilance we heard last time.  And the emotion that came through was incredible.

At the center of his system is just a little Zen amp, albeit one with balanced inputs which I really think add a lot.  But we strut around with our big Torii’s and ZMA’s and this little Zen just destroyed them.  Granted, with Rob’s OB’s he’s got plate amps driving  the Auggies, but that wasn’t what was driving this sound.

We put in Eric’s ZMA for the night’s comparison and it just didn’t sound as good.  I could feel the heat coming from Eric as I could tell he heard what I heard.  We decided to give the ZMA some time to warm up and went upstairs to have a drink.  I think Eric said he needed one.

We came back down in 20 minutes or so and the ZMA sounded much better.  It wasn’t fair to compare a cold amp to one that was fully warmed up.  But I have to say, even after the warm up, the magic was not there with the ZMA the way it was with the Zen.  It sounded good and we really were able to hear the potential of the low end on the Hawthornes.  We had a couple of uncontrolled laughs when those speakers dug in and produced chest rattling bass.

The Zen won’t be for everyone.  It does run out of steam on some songs and isn’t nearly as full as the ZMA, but for some of the vocals and intricate numbers we listened to, it was sublime.

So, we heard this time what we expected to hear last time.  Rob had the synergy going and literally, his whole system seemed transformed.  We had minimal diffusion going this time because we just didn’t feel the need to mess with it this time.  We didn’t even unbox the rolling diffuser lab – just my wooden QRDs.   What we heard left us wondering what kind of lift was possible with the UFO transformers and additional treatments in the room.  This was good stuff.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #63 - 04/11/15 at 13:27:44
 
Thanks Palomino!  I think that's a nice summary, particularly the bit about the dead frog Wink

I expected Pal and Raven to hear some of the improvements that I heard.  What I didn't expect was the reaction to be as high and positive in degree.  Both Tom and Eric heard a difference before they even got down the stairs, which says something.  I bet these two employ similar tricks when deciding which room to go into at AXPONA.

We played some of Eric's test tracks and even I was surprised at what I heard.  Tom called it layering, but at the time I didn't know what term to apply.  Breathtaking probably would've been my word.  I'll echo Tom's comments above and say that there were some moments of prolific bass that made me giggle like a schoolgirl.  

The Zen clearly has some strengths in my system that the ZMA didn't quite show.  The Zen seemed to dance more gracefully and treated the music so delicately that it seemingly left no trace of its own existence.  Music just flows.  That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate what the impressive ZMA can do.  The first thing that comes to mind when trying to describe the ZMA is Power.  The dynamic capability is on another level completely, but I could "hear" the ZMA, meaning it doesn't have the SET qualities I described above.  I guess this shouldn't really be surprising.  However, I am a rock/metal listener and honestly this amp would please.  If I had to choose between the two amps, I wouldn't.  I would buy them both.  

We all wondered at the end of the night what level the UFO upgrade would take this amp.  It's just a matter of time before I pull the trigger on that.

That's it for now, I'll let Raven weigh in next.

Dave1210 said:

Quote:
I have come to the conclusion that diffusion works better for me at the first reflection point (vs. absorption).  It's significant.  I get a wall of sound, better depth, clarity and imaging with diffusion.   I currently have absorbtion at the second reflection points, but I wonder if the soundstage would be even better with diffusion.  


Eric was kind enough to leave me his traveling diffuser lab.  I'll be trying this out too, Dave.  I'll PM you with impressions when I can.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #64 - 04/11/15 at 13:39:56
 
I almost forgot another comparo we did last night.  The PS Audio Power Plant Premier vs. the PI Audio UberBUSS.  This is a boring review, but here's what we heard when swapping just the amplifier between these two devices:

Not much.

There was a little more high-end sparkle with the PPP vs. the UberBUSS, but otherwise couldn't identify any differences.  

Now that my DAC is plugged into the wall (and clearly preferrable to conditioned power!), I am closer to considering sale of my UberBUSS to procure the UFO upgrade and some more diffusion.  I need to run some experiments to confirm but this is on the table.  
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #65 - 04/11/15 at 13:48:58
 
Interesting. Last time I compared my amp and my DAC on my PS Audio P5 and plugged directly into a wall. . . I put them both back on the P5 which had clearly superior sound. All systems and rooms and power situations seem to be different!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #66 - 04/11/15 at 13:51:00
 
Hi Lon, we didn't plug the DAC into the PPP.  Results were so nice direct in the wall that we didn't mess with it.  I probably would have, but I'm one of those weirdos that believes once you power down your digital gear, even for a second, it takes a long time for it to sound "normal" again.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #67 - 04/11/15 at 14:08:08
 
Yeah I have to agree with Rob on the PPP.  Not a big difference. A little fuller bass is what I heard.  I was expecting more given the lift I got with Rachael.   It could be that my power is just that bad.

My system is sounding a little better this morning than last night when I got back from Robs.  For a while last night I was feeling a deep depression coming on.   Must have been because I unplugged my digital gear.  Yeah that's it Smiley
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #68 - 04/11/15 at 14:13:26
 
I wouldn't minimize the impact unplugging your digital gear has.  It's similar to a cold amp, just no life in the music until it stabilizes.

I am doing more research on PS Audio power units.  That P5 looks nice Smiley
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #69 - 04/11/15 at 14:20:34
 
Oh I know, when I do this I always do it in the evening and go to bed, and usually don't get to listen til the afternoon of the next day when my care activities with my Dad are over. So I'm not comparing cold digital. . . Last time I even did it for a few days because I was including the DAC and digital takes a few days to be all it can be after unplugging in my experience.

I wish I could do without the power plants but I can't after knowing and hearing what they do. Like Pal I suppose I've had bad power (but shouldn't really in comparison to my last home).
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #70 - 04/11/15 at 14:37:28
 
I was more poking fun at my now seemingly inferior system more than the cold digital concept.  I actually subscribe to the cold digital phenom and don't turn my gear off.  Seems like about 24 hours to get everything to sync up again.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #71 - 04/11/15 at 15:16:58
 
Sorry I'm posting so late - had some domestic issues to deal with when I got home last night. I didn't want to bring that mood into my posting here. LOL

So, this is quickly becoming my favorite thread on the Decware forums...mostly because it's all about us CDApS guys, Smiley but also because it shows the exuberance, lessons, and in this case humbling we go through.

It's funny we were talking about hubris last night, because I was totally expecting to go over there with the ZMA and crush Rob's world. The phrase that Steve taught me (back when he was showing me what reel to reel master tapes sound like on the ZMA) is "Audio-Ruination". I love that word, and I expected that to be what the ZMA was going to do to Rob - I fully expected him to be clamoring to buy a ZMA before we left there, and I even told Steve as much when I picked it up from the shop on Tuesday. Instead, what Palomino said happened.

When I showed up, with the car stuffed full of gear, we started pulling stuff down the stairs and into the staging area (kids play room) behind the listening room. Like Tom said, I wasn't even all the way down the stairs and I *knew* this was a different system. I recognized the Buckethead tunes right away, and they sounded luscious, glassy, and with no hint of sibilance that we heard last visit. And here I am carrying down these giant boxes of diffusers trying to crane my neck around the box going "what the hell" in my head.

Fast Forward to our serious listening, we'd already heard several of Rob's queued up tracks, and we dumped my standard Demo Tracks on his JRiver setup (Same ones I played at Decfest 2014 for everyone), and the previous visit was pretty much forgotten. 98% gone was the sibilance we heard before, the flatness and lack of dynamics. Rob loves guitar tracks as I do myself, and both Tin Pan Alley and Keith Don't Go has that sharp leading edge of a skillfully plucked string, and SRV's tube amp sound was glassy and warm like it was supposed to be. Everything had warmth and emotion, that synergy that Rob expected when he carefully picked this mix of equipment was absolutely there.

Then I played Alt-J and Interlude I came on. Three male voices, rich with natural human harmonics covering a good range of sound - and the layering of those voices was stunning. I look over at Palomino like "are you hearing this!" and he had the same WTF look on his face I'm sure I had. After listening I say - so Rob, how much did you pay for this upgrade? For a half second he looked confused, then this big grin formed on his face and he says  "Nothing". Yeah, that's the best price.

This was a stunning transformation of the system. I must have asked him 3 times what he did, because I was having trouble beliving that moving the speakers 4", the couch 1", and plugging the DAC into the wall could clear up this nasty sibilance and improve dynamics *this* much. It was such a difference that we were just fishing for the "why", and Rob's like...well, I did use contact cleaner on my terminals just before you guys got here last time...

I was all set to tell him to ditch those giant speakers, or get an amp with a little more guts. But the end result was that I just simply said don't change a damn thing with your gear...just pile in the room treatments, and see what you can do with that.

On the flip side, Rob was grinning like a kid when the ZMA showed what it could do, especially after it warmed up a bit. But Palo and I were just shaking our heads; NO, don't change anything! I'm not really sure Rob fully realized what he had till he saw how stunned we were.

That Zen can still hold it's own after all these years. I fully went in there expecting to help Steve sell a ZMA, but instead I'm telling Rob "hey, imagine what this would sound like with those new UFO transformers?!". I really think with the new UFO transformers, and some sound diffusers in the room, Rob's setup will surpass both my setup and Tom's in all but grunt.

Audio-Ruination happened, but it happened to us instead of Rob! LOL


The saving grace for the ZMA; we were running out of time, the family got back from doing family things, and Rob said we had to think about packing up really soon. But he made the mistake of leaving us alone for 3 minutes - so we quickly deployed the MG944 on the outside of this giant OB, rather close to the wall, but on the same plane as the OB, plugged into the ZMA which was still on Rob's front end - and the sound was *there*. I breathed a sigh of relief - the punch, dynamics, detail. Hell, the ZMA/944 combo actually sounded better in Rob's room then my own! I bounced through about a dozen tracks in 5 minutes, just to quickly sample the gamut, and it was all there. That probably saved me from committing hara-kiri when I got home.  ;D

So, Rob's system has detail, emotion, and layering. But still falls short when a track gets really dynamic and the Zen just loses steam. The sibilance is gone, dynmaics and attack are what we expect. I'm still scratching my head at how such slight changes can make such a big difference. I've not heard a Zen amp sound this good since Steve's heavily treated room back in '98. I think Rob lost a little imaging with the speaker move, but I'm betting he can dial that in with some toe-in and diffusers. I almost didn't notice with the other stunning changes going on.

ZMA had grip, grunt, and that rich harmonic sound that makes you want to turn it up - but it just didn't have the synergy with the big OB like it does with the MG944. Rob was certainly pleased with the ZMA, but I wasn't! LOL It's making me re-evaluate the ZMA to see if there is something I can do to get it closer to the CKCS sound. Maybe tube rolling or something...or maybe it's just that inherent difference of SET design; the purity of SET coming through...that same sound that brought me to Decware almost 20 years ago, and not something I can simply tube roll into the ZMA. It pains me to think that this difference will be even wider once those new transformers are put in Rob's CKCS!

Again I say good job Steve on building great amps. And Great job Rob for planning such synergy of gear, and not giving up after our first visit. These small tweaks certainly were worth the cost!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #72 - 04/11/15 at 16:09:28
 
Thanks for adding the 944 experience to the record.   I know these are no longer in production but they really hold their own. Great match with the ZMA.  I lugged the el caminos to the meeting but we ran out of time.  

I *need* you guys to come listen to my room for the next meeting but I'd like to have the new rear wall diffuser array place so I am not the next biology frog.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #73 - 04/11/15 at 17:21:24
 

Right about now, the only thing I feel like I have over you two is I can go louder....oh, and I have a bigger dog.  :P
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #74 - 04/11/15 at 17:52:33
 
Lonely Raven, i see the Chinese stole your diffuser designs but even the photo? They steal patented products frequently as well, pretty ballsy. Alibaba is the Chinese equivalent of Amazon.com maybe bigger. I suppose you should flattered.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #75 - 04/11/15 at 20:08:51
 
L.R. , What are you trying to get made in plastic?
I would think that someone around you would have a 3D printer that could print up what you need.
I might, maybe, be able to slip it into our's, but I would need at least a print or a CAD file to do it.
We can print up to 10"X 10"X12".
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #76 - 04/12/15 at 01:43:24
 

Donnie, I really appreciate that, but in the long run I'm going to need dozens of these. I don't think 3D printing is the best method unfortunately. If I only needed a couple, sure, but probably not for dozens.



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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #77 - 04/12/15 at 02:21:28
 
L.R., A couple of dozen falls into a real bad price zone. Enough that prototyping methods are too high and making a injection mold hard tool is even higher.
I've been reading about 3D printing injection molds for 100 hit tools, but even then it is going to cost $5-10K.
Maybe someone in Schamburg or Elk Grove can make tooling cheaper than I'm thinking. There are a lot of shops around that area.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #78 - 04/12/15 at 17:03:00
 
Great thread guys.

You don't need to own the ZMA, exotic cables and Speakers to have great sound with Decware! I'm sellng my KS3035 Speaker Cable right now on AgoN, because my Kimber Select 3033 is more compatible/musical.....is a good example. Thus, the reason I've always kept my SE84CS. Now with my modded Adagio's and ERRx on the way (the CS can drive them both), I will plug my CS now,  even more into the System. Would I ever get rid of my ZMA = hell no! But, my CS does do special things vs. the ZMA as you guys duly noted.

Instead of modding my SE84CS with the UFO mod:  I'm strongly considering getting a UFO MOD SE84CKCS-XLR inputs, to run the balanced out of my ZDSD. This preserves my SE84CS.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #79 - 04/13/15 at 14:23:26
 
Help me out Raven/Rob if you see something missing or we are not in agreement...

Lessons learned from the past two CDApS meetings:

1. Diffusers have an impact - even with OB speakers.  They widen the soundstage noticeably.

2. You can tune a room and a system with diffusers.  My wooden QRD13s affected more midrange.  Erics Styrofoam ones had more impact on treble.  Diffuser rolling anyone?

3. There was little difference between power regeneration and power conditioning (at least for the units we tested).

4. You can achieve blissful listening with the smallest amp in the Decware lineup so long as you have a decent source and the right speaker combination.

6. Although we knew this going in, we demonstrated that SET has transparency that the larger amps do not.  What you choose is a balancing act based on your listening preferences.

5. Small changes can add up to big differences.  Moving speakers and/or changing power source can literally transform a system.  Continued, structured tweaking can have its pitfalls, but it can also result in better sound.

6. There is some freaking awesome recordings out there (even an old guy can appreciate).
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #80 - 04/13/15 at 16:12:05
 
Palomino, I think you did a nice job identifying the takeaways.  It was a very educational pair of meetings.  

This list turns my mind toward future meetings and to ponder a list of things I'd like to know.  

Since we'll likely be at your place next, I'm wondering what some of your questions are pertinent to your room?  
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #81 - 04/13/15 at 16:45:02
 
I have a few questions.

1. What are your impressions of my soundstage? (I won't bias you ahead of time)

2. How do you feel the transparency of the Torii MKIII with Jupiters compares to that of the Zen?  In other words, what do you think I am giving up for the sake of volume and dynamics?

3. Do you hear big differences in balanced (your system) versus unbalanced (mine)?

4. What are your impressions of the bass clarity and overall level in my room?

5.  I'd like to also get Raven's (and your) impressions of the new fractal diffusers I bought.  Raven hopefully has a memory of what his diffusers sounded like in my room.  Mine is going to be a 6' by 4" stepped array across the back wall.

6. What do you think of the El Caminos?

You guys may have other stuff you want to do, but this is my agenda.

We could do a Saturday or maybe go a little later given that I don't have the younger kids like you do.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #82 - 04/13/15 at 22:38:54
 
I'm in Orlando for work this week, and camping this weekend. So I'll be out of the loop for a bit.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #83 - 04/13/15 at 22:42:01
 
Yeah, I know.  Bri said "sure, take that ZMA out of the living room.  And while your at it, take that big DAC thing as well."
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #84 - 04/14/15 at 01:53:12
 
Quote:
Lonely Raven wrote:

That Zen can still hold it's own after all these years. I fully went in there expecting to help Steve sell a ZMA, but instead I'm telling Rob "hey, imagine what this would sound like with those new UFO transformers?!". I really think with the new UFO transformers, and some sound diffusers in the room, Rob's setup will surpass both my setup and Tom's in all but grunt.


Quote:
Palomino wrote:

2. How do you feel the transparency of the Torii MKIII with Jupiters compares to that of the Zen?  In other words, what do you think I am giving up for the sake of volume and dynamics?


My Super Zen and Alnico Monitors with reinforced Mid Bass have MORE  Slam & Grunt than my Peachtree 220se (220 watts) and Klipsch RF-7's (102db). The Peachtree / Klipsch combo will reach insane SPL's which is not very useful. The Super Zen / Alnico Monitors with reinforced Mid Bass reach more than sufficiently high volumes and and you have the Wonderful Super Zen Sound.

Quote:
DBC wrote:

Meter: Radio Shack analog SPL meter. A weighted, Slow response. Placed at listening position.

Room: 16' x 21', vaulted ceiling with large openings into other large areas of the home. Front of speakers placed 4' from the front wall and spaced 9' apart. Listening position is 11' from each speaker. Hard wood floors with large padded area rug. Modest room treatments (absorption & diffusion).

Equipment: Oppo 105D, Stock Super Zen with 8 ohm output transformers, Omega Super Alnico's, Twin Hsu Mid Bass Modules connected via speaker level with crossover set at 150hz.

Music: AC/DC Powerage CD, tracks included Rock & Roll Damnation, Up to my neck in you, Sin City.

Sound Pressure Level Readings:

Super Zen Volume Control set at 12:00 O'clock: Average SPL = 83db
Super Zen Volume Control set at  1:30 O'clock:  Average SPL = 87db
Super Zen Volume Control set at  3:00 O'clock:  Average SPL = 92db

For my taste the 12'00 O'clock volume setting is ideal for lengthy listening at moderately high volume without fatigue (Very Satisfying). At the 3:00 O'clock volume setting I did not notice any obvious strain on the part of the amp or speakers.

When I turn the Mid Bass Modules OFF the music is obviously a bit thin for my taste on the bottom end. I should mention this is also the case with my Klipsch RF-7's so it is not a fault with the Omega.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #85 - 04/14/15 at 23:56:42
 
ProggRob....

want SET "illuminated from within" sound with more power?  Read Steve's white paper on the Torii.  As long as you use tubes that utilize the Hazen grid circuitry in the Torii... it will have that vivid mids SET sound.  Want to be less vivid?  Replace the EL34's for some tubes that won't engage the Hazen mod.... and the Torii will be less vivid... that is one of the greatest attributes of the Torii - I have been able to make it sound virtually any way I want and can dial it in with nearly every speaker I've tried it with.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #86 - 04/15/15 at 00:43:55
 
Thanks maddog, this has my mind turning a bit.  We had an opportunity to hear the Torii in my system during our last CDApS meeting, but we ran out of time.  At any rate, I wouldn't have approached the Torii in this manner.

Next time I get my hands on Palomino's Torii, I'll try voicing in various ways to see how close we can get it to the Zen's sound!

Palomino, don't let me forget!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #87 - 04/15/15 at 02:23:57
 
Guys, you're killing me! First, there was the untouchable ZMA, then, the Rachael was replaced by a Torii MK III, then there's this ZMA won't compete against the Super Zen sound again ... so what is it, SET power or watt power, other things being equal? What are really the tradeoffs?

When I started my adventure with Decware, some 3 years ago, I made the question: Surely a SET or SEP would have strict sound/transparency advantages as compared to a PP design like the Torii? People at the time jumped over stating Decware designs are not subdued by this classical view, as the PP is designed to sound like the SET but with more guts ...! or something like that.

Finally, I have a Mini Torii (SEP), with somewhat more complicated topology than, say, a Rachael due to the additional regulation tubes in the signal path, plus the beamy sound of a tetrode/pentode like the 6V6 being different from the EL34 in the Rachael or the EL84 in the Super Zen. I admit the Mini Torii is the only Decware amp I've heard, so bear with me, but, I find it quite transparent, with a rich and peppy sound. It just lacks the oomph of a larger amp, that's all.

Just sayin'
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #88 - 04/15/15 at 03:33:30
 
Zen trumps ZMA and Torii in speed, transparency and a new term to me since I have now actually heard it, layering.  Also note that we said once the ZMA was warmed up and especially when it was paired with the 944s it was much closer.

ZMA and Torii both trump zen in power and dynamics.

ZMA trumps Torii in power and dynamics.  My gut tells me ZMA beats Torii on transparency.  It's been awhile since I a/b'd them in my room. Without balanced input on the ZMA, it's probably closer.

Rachael was replaced by Torii for ability to play well with a wide variety of speakers, general sound tuning ability plus power.  If I am listening to jazz and female vocals, Rachael is still my favorite amp in my home.  If I can find the right speakers it wl be replaced by a zen. Rock, electronic, or other dynamic music it's Torii all the way.

If you asked me what I would choose as my favorite amp/speaker combo it would be a zen with balanced inputs and audiophile speakers with 101db sensitivity.  I don't know that these speakers exist.  This I hope would give me the transparency plus dynamics and volume.

My second favorite would be the ZMA with balanced inputs and a variety of 94db+ speakers.  Monoliths for one.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #89 - 04/15/15 at 03:37:34
 
Oh and zen trumps Rachael in speed and transparency. Slight edge to Rachael on power and dynamics.

I have never heard the mini Torii.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #90 - 04/15/15 at 03:53:29
 
Palomino, are you looking for a 101db/w/m speaker with 8 ohm impedence?  Check this out, these have interested me as well.

http://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/omen-def-1b
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #91 - 04/15/15 at 04:11:30
 
I'm sure those would be great...haven't heard them.  But I run the Zu Audio Soul speakers with my 2.3 WPC Zen Signature Monoblocks.  They are 99 dB and 8 ohm and are my favorite with the small Zen. There's plenty of headroom. They have a 60 day trial period...try either, you'll like them, but if you don't, they pick them up and give your money back.

I also have Omega Alinco Super 7XRS speakers at 93 dB and 8 ohms that work well with the small amps but the Souls are my favorite. Mark.

http://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/soul
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #92 - 04/15/15 at 11:52:51
 
Zu have been on my radar since my pre-decware days so I am interested. I did hear Zu last year at axpona and was impressed with soundstage and dynamics.  My impression based on what I have read and what I briefly heard is that they are more of a rock speaker.  I'd like to hear them with the zen and with a wide variety music.

Maybe at a CDApS in the future we could pair up the zen with Eric's Zu.

I don't think his are that efficient but hopefully I'd get the idea.

Btw Rob I don't doubt that the zen magic I heard was enabled greatly by your DAC and speakers.  You have great synergy there. It all works for me but I'd like a little more power for the volume, weight and dynamics.

Btw Steve's new offerings with the adjustable gain are worth a listen in this regard.  I wasn't as interested in the recorder but the cp player has me thinking.

It might be hard for you to give up your DAC.  I was an early schitt head but fell off the wagon when it took so long for them to introduce product.  Might be time to give them another look as well.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #93 - 04/15/15 at 12:41:22
 
Palomino,  I think Zu does seem to Market to the Rock crowd but if you speak to Sean Casey, the founder and President of Zu Audio or read some of the write ups on the site, you'll find that they strive to get vocal reproduction right. Having listened to my Zu Souls for about two years, I can assure you they play all music well.  I listen to Jazz mainly and the souls do it right from solo piano to vocals to Big Band. I particularly like that they don't over emphasize the High End...their presentation seems to be well balanced to me.  In addition they do Bass very well, better even than the HR-1s in my main system.  You can read about their unconventional structure internally to achieve it.

In the thread LR started talking about his blue Zu's, I warned him about the long break in, which is much longer than other speakers, in my opinion.  I've copied one of my posts below rather than go through it again.

To reiterate, the Souls do very well with Jazz, Classical as well as Rock/Blues.  I only have experience with the Souls, they have upgraded internal wiring and the tweeter is integrated with the 10 inch driver so they are a bit different than LR's Zus but both should sound similar.  If you have the chance to listen to well broken in Zu speakers with your Music, I think you'll be very pleased with what you hear.  Mark.

21       AUDIO FORUMS / General Discussion and Support / Re: BAM! Blue Beauties are on the way!
on: 01/14/15 at 13:22:55
Started by Lonely Raven | Post by mark58
I've been reading the various impressions of the Blue Zu's.  I've written before in this forum about how I hated my Zu Soul's at first and beat the crap out of them with Led Zep at near concert levels....probably at least 250 to 300 hours, before they started behaving like audiophile speakers.  Mind you Zu claims they break in the drivers for 600 hours before putting them in the cabinets.  The Blue Zu's should be very similar to mine except you have a separate tweeter vs my whizzer...which makes the Blues less efficient with a higher Impedance. But the sound quality should be very similar.

Did you get a feel for how much the prior owner had used the Blues and at what volumes...they may not have been broken in much.  These Zu's really do have a Mr. Hyde and then a Dr. Jekyll personality after break in.  Unless I'd lived through it myself, I'd have a hard time believing the difference.

I, like Lon, don't like my Music playback to be too hot.  I want lots of detail but I don't want the cymbals pounding holes in my brain.  I'm listening to some studio Monk Quartet from 1964 as I type...everything is just right.  My system is relatively simple.  The 2 WPC Zen Signature Monoblocks with a Jolida 100 CD player with a pair of Sylvania Black Plate 12AX7's.  The Signatures have a pair of Amperex 7308's, the stock Russian output tubes, 50's RCA 5U4G coke bottle Rectifiers and 50's RCA OA3's.  Interconnects are the Decware Silver Reference and the power cords are nothing special.  Speaker Cables are Zu Libtec.  Oh, I also use a Running Springs Audio Haley Power Conditioner.

In regards to floor gap,  I use the spikes they sent at almost the highest you can get in the front with the back two about half of max so the souls tilt up a bit with plenty of space underneath.  They sit on carpet and provide plenty of Bass.

So when I hear or read folks who have owned Zu Speakers and describe what I first heard but got rid of them...I think to myself, if only they had been more patient with these temperamental beasts. They just needed to be broken like a young spirited horse.  Mark.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #94 - 04/15/15 at 13:17:38
 
Palomino,

Thanks for the summary observations. I totally agree. In fact, this is why I alternate now with my Tekton Lore 2.0's, as these provide the sensitivity and impedance load my Mini Torii enjoys so much, improving dynamic power reserve for demanding passages.

Of course, I miss the vibration and air pressure on the skin feeling a larger amp's bass presentation provides along with the tangible (almost physical) slam, but there are tradeoffs, like you have well pointed out.

I wonder how different an El84 or El34 tube sounds compared to the 6V6 ... Right now, I feel in the middle of the road, lacking both extreme conditions but having a quite versatile amp which provides enough power (with the right speakers) and transparency. It's probably a bit slower than a Super Zen, I'm sure, as I have felt that sometimes (I guess the effect of the extra regulation topology).

I need to find out what my next upgrade is going to be.  Thanks again!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #95 - 04/15/15 at 13:43:21
 
As the owner of a Mini Torii and a SE84, I can certainly attest to the magic of that Zen amp.  It has a transparency and an ability to flow with the music that the Mini Torii just doesn't quite get.  There's something quite special about that little amp and I marvel at it to this day.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #96 - 04/15/15 at 14:49:15
 
Nice to learn about that. The Super Zen may be on my next upgrade, then, especially with the upgraded transformers, as it should work fine with my Tekton Lore 2.0's and maybe even with my DM945's.
Thanks!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #97 - 04/15/15 at 15:03:42
 
One last comparison.  I believe Rachael trumps Zen in soundstage.  Zen trumps Torii and Torii and ZMA are tied.  These are small differences but my opinion, none the less.

I re-read my response and somebody might wonder why I even have a Torii MKIII.

To me, the Torii is the best all rounder Decware amp.  It does nearly everything very well.

It's the most flexible amp in the lineup.  You can make it sound pretty much any way you like.  Plus it's got the power for a wide variety of speakers.

And for what they are going for these days, it was another no brainer for me.  If you trace my purchase history, you'll see I am fairly cautious and like no brainers.

I keep Rachael for when I want Zen magic.  I do lust after the ultra zen magic of the Zen, especially after hearing it at Rob's.  But I also lust after the bodacious curves of the ZMA.  A married man can look, can't he?

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #98 - 04/15/15 at 15:23:14
 
It sounds like we are all after the same things: dynamics, detail/layering, volume capability, etc.  Everyone wants their cake and to eat it, too.  However, at some point we need to select a Decware amp that does well what we value most, and then research source components and speakers that compliment its strengths and minimize its shortcomings.  Below I'll outline how I tried to build around the Zen.

For me, the Zen was a no-compromise choice for detail.  My opinion at the time, and to this day, is that transparency isn't something you can get back.  If any component in your system obscures it, it is gone.  So in theory I felt it was a good match for my large-driver Hawthornes since research indicated that large drivers "don't do detail".  I haven't found this to be true exactly, still I find the Zen was a smart choice for my speakers.  Add a transparent DAC and great cabling commensurate with your equipment and you're set.  

I felt volume would not be an issue with the Zen with 97db/w/m speakers, and mostly it has not been for me.  Dynamics were a bit of a gamble, but I slept easily knowing three things:  a) bass capability of the Zen was well documented, in fact I read once on the Steve Hoffman forums that a new Zen owner felt the bass was better than his 100+ watt Odyssey Khartago amps, b) the driver size on the Hawthornes would displace enough air to make up for the amp's lack of grunt, and c) my Schiit Gungnir is known for it's prodigious dynamics and bottom end frequencies.  Just read Palomino and Raven's responses on Page 5 to see if they felt after visit No. 2 that dynamics were inadequate.

Dislaimer: in relation to a ZMA or really any Decware amp with more wattage, the Zen will lose on dynamics and volume.  I heard this first hand.  However, in the absence of comparison, I doubt many that took great care to build around the Zen's weaknesses would feel cheated.  Hell, I've heard a direct comparison and still don't feel cheated.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #99 - 04/15/15 at 15:34:12
 
Quote:
I re-read my response and somebody might wonder why I even have a Torii MKIII.


Funny, I wondered that after reading your relative comparisons to other Decware amps.  I'm glad you clarified.

I also understand from maddog07 that the current drive of the Torii Mk III is a perfect match for full range, single-driver speakers.  I don't believe the Mk IV delivers the same level of magic in this regard.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #100 - 04/15/15 at 15:37:14
 
I don't think the IV has the treble shunt which can be a critical component of single driver tuning.  I am not sure about the rest.  At the last fest, and the one before, I got hung up on the ZMA and didn't listen to the IV.

P.S. Listening to Buckethead right now.  I think I am becoming a Buckethead head.  At least their softer stuff for sure.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #101 - 04/15/15 at 18:46:36
 
And now Steve is releasing the Tori Jr in July with an ultralinear design and the UFO transformers at 20 watts just to keep things interesting.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #102 - 04/15/15 at 19:21:32
 
What? Another Torii? Junior? Ultralinear has always being a No-No for Steve, so I'm skeptical.

I was going to add, I feel the same way with my Mini Torii as Palomino with the Rachael. Its a little guy that can imitate any of the other players around, within its limitations, of course, and quite versatile with its flexible tube-rolling capabilities ...

I like transparency and dynamic power. So, a SET in the teen watts would be great for me ...

Ok, I just read Steve's message on the Ultra Linear, 20 watt new amp ...   mmhhh, I need to think about this, but it seems Ultra linear is everyone's approach to these things, so where's the magic? In the UFO transformers? Would that be enough?  
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #103 - 04/15/15 at 19:24:29
 
I'm with you on the SET monos, Fireblade.  I like having SET amps and more power is all I'd ask for.  At least, more than 6 watts.  If you're gonna do it, swing for the fences.

All I need is a cool $6000 to get them plus Steve's forthcoming pre-amp.

Rob
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #104 - 04/15/15 at 20:45:36
 
USD 6,000 you say? What are those, non-Decware SET monos, I guess?

I would even consider a middle of the road Torii at just 12 watts, but with all its fancy sounding topology instead of a more mundane Ultralinear (ballpark figure USD 2,000.) Just sayin' ...
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #105 - 04/15/15 at 20:49:23
 
Palomino. The MKIV does have a treble cut, but starts at a higher frequency than the MKIII.

I can certainly can believe the Zen may be the most transparent Decware amp, but also, there are so many variables, it seems hard to isolate transparency and the rest of the beauty you all experienced the last session to the amp. As suggested, with my Toriis also, tubes alone make it a "different amp" in every aspect of the sound including speed and transparency, not to mention variables in room, cables, speakers, power, other noise killers, DACs.... I don't have anything in this system that does not change the sound.

I have had a Rachel, SE34II.2, and Taboo here, and even with serious tube adjustments (I have a large selection of each type except for power tubes for the Taboo), none really competed with my system tuned for the MKIII. I think "with my system tuned for the MKIII" is a big part of this. All the amps had a beautiful sound, and very nice transparency, but with my setup, I felt I was getting a better matrix of transparency, micro detail, and soundstage qualities from the MKIII... and with abundant power, dynamics, bass etc. The wild card for the Toriis here is bass. I need to fine-tune to get that ideal of bass speed, clarity and slam. And without that, the amp can sound notably less transparent due to the low end masking the mids and highs. Or should I say revealing rather than transparent when we are talking about things like layering. No doubt SE is beautiful, but a well tuned Torii is beautiful too and very revealing here.

I think the baseline of Steve's technique and voicing is so good we can transform any of these amps with tubes and tuning. But I do have a lot of tubes, and as Pal said, the Toriis have a lot of adjustability.

In the context of the Zen being notably transparent and revealing, the system you all heard first at Progg's, by reports, was rife with issues, considering amps, speakers and diffusion as popular potential fixes...Then with very little change in reflection/wave patterns, and source power, the next session it became a depressant for others it was so beautiful. This indicates the difficulty of isolating a speaker, source, amp or anything else... The massive synergy shift experienced after Progg's seemingly minor adjustments clearly include the Zen, but it was the same amp both sessions.

I am auditioning a used pair of Synergistic Research Element spk cables made with four wires of super pure copper, air dielectric, and an active shield (it Plugs in)... conceptually very revealing and musical cables. There are three little electronic "tuning bullets" that change the active shield somehow...the shield! Each has an audible presentation difference, from most revealing and extended, to more notably warm with less extension and softer/smoother highs. In-between is a rich and revealing, relatively neutral vibe, but notably rich...colored to me (though I like it). None are as "transparent" as the cables I had been using. Even the most revealing of the "bullets" in these warm cables make my amp sound less "transparent," though I may like them.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #106 - 04/15/15 at 21:05:41
 
Fireblade, I figure $1500-$1700 for each mono, plus another $1500-$2000 for the pre-amp, plus additional power cords and interconnects.  $6000 is my ballpark.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #107 - 04/15/15 at 21:19:10
 
Will,

I absolutely agree with you.  The "magic" can be attained with any amp in the lineup, but one must start with the amp they can afford and provides most of their wishlist, sonically speaking.  Referring back to post No. 98 I speak about building around the amp; albeit I didn't mention power or tube considerations as you just did.  Everything matters, as they say, and building the perfect system takes a LOT of work and experimentation as I'm sure you can attest.

I would take any Decware amp given to me and build a lovely system around it.  There are no duds.  And I certainly wouldn't pigeon-hole a single amp to being this or that, given the variety of factors.  What you've seen over the last 100 posts or so are general observations that may not be universally true, but simply what we heard with the time and equipment available.

Rob
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #108 - 04/15/15 at 21:56:40
 
Yes, I understand Rob. I just think in a forum like this where folks with less experience with the gear use it as a guide, it is sort of critical to keep clear with the amazing variability in systems, rooms, including Decware amps. And with stock tubes, they may not be just what we want, but may be able to be adapted, or as you have with your Zen, your system developed around the amp. I guess for me, the whole system is tuned to the Torii, but the Torii is also tuned to the whole.

Your system sounds like it is very nice!!! I have been looking at those speakers a long while but can't fit them here.

Looking at the layout and copy, I think the New Torii Jr is an integrated. "To get a TORII to fit into a smaller chassis like this, I will be building a single huge power supply instead of 2 smaller ones...."
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #109 - 04/15/15 at 22:18:59
 
I hear what you are saying Will.  I don't want to lead anyone astray.  I do think that the small tweaks Rob did allowed that transparency I associate with the Zen to come through.

The first time I heard a Zen was on a nearfield situation in Steve's amp building room with zero treatments, a so-so DAC and an iPod dock and thought to myself, "wow that is transparency."  Same situation later at home (same equipment actually) with Rachael and it just wasn't there.

Back in post #92 I attribute the magic to the synergy in Rob's system.  He has something special going there and I got that same Zen feeling again, only with layering in the depth of soundstage.  The big (little) change was on the DAC power source.

I do stand by my comparisons of the various amps,  but my post was more of a response to Fireblade giving us the business on our seemingly vacillating amp opinions rather than a desire to provide the definitive matrix on amp feature ranking.

I may be able to get that transparency out of the Torii III.  This amp continues to surprise me.  I hope I do and munch on my words.  Best crow I will ever eat.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #110 - 04/15/15 at 22:37:50
 
I think Steve needs to swoop in here and set us all straight.  Maybe he can provide us that matrix! Wink
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #111 - 04/15/15 at 22:48:30
 
Smiley Funny...every time I talk with Steve about amps, he implies nutters like me may just need a nice stable of Decware amps (and in my case, some more efficient speakers for anything smaller than a Torii), each doing their own things better...like what you are talking about Palomino with the Zen, and what I hear with the MKIV.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #112 - 04/15/15 at 22:52:09
 
I am becoming one of those nutters.

I am tasting some crow right now.  It's not the main course, but it's definitely an appetizer.  I just got a new digital coax from Stone and its increased my transparency and provided a much better grip on the bass.  The Torii continues to amaze.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #113 - 04/15/15 at 22:53:55
 

I think that's really hard to do, Rob - I mean, your system proves that synergy has a lot of say in the final sound of the system. I really didn't care for how the ZMA sounded on your big OB speakers, but the little Zen amazed me. Plugging my ZMA into the MG944, the bass was clearly weaker, but the ZMA simply had better synergy with my speakers. I don't think it was a preference thing, I think it was a synergy thing.

I know Steve has some guidelines - and I'm betting the Zen is top of the transparency food chain (ignoring the one off OTL which is an alien from another planet). A Rachel or new Torii Jr with UFO transformers might get closer, but then you put those transformers in the CKCS and the dynamics change again.

Just too many variables.

I really thought the ZMA had better transparency till I heard your CKCS on your OB. But then, that could change with yet another speaker/room combo.

Ugh, I could go around in circles all day with everything going on in my head. I'm still floored that those small changes made such a big difference.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #114 - 04/15/15 at 23:25:02
 
Yeah, the matrix comment was mainly in jest, but it would be nice.
Makes my head turn as well....

I'm kinda scared to change anything now.  I need to tread carefully here on out.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #115 - 04/15/15 at 23:45:00
 
Dudes…..  
You guys are going to go insane trying to “classify” Decware amps.  Zen trumps Torii in blah, blah, blah; Torii trumps Rachael in blah, blah, blah, ZMA trumps Torii….. you make it sound like we’re dealing with “absolutes” here – nonsense – we are not.  You are engaging in an exercise in futility.  ANY Decware amp can “get you there” when mated with a complimentary speaker and synergistic upstream components.  You just have to get the right combination.  Trying to “rank” Decware amps ? – it’s not possible without system context.  Steve will tell you the same thing – I’m not making this up – it’s not just my opinion – it’s the designer’s modus operandi..!!!
I ask Steve when I was comparing my Torii 3 to the demo Torii 4 at Zen in 2013 if the IV was also current source – he said “yes”.  What the IV lacks, that is an absolute requirement IMO, for obtaining audio nirvana with single driver , high-efficiency, full-range crossoverless speakers, is the treble shunt control on the III.  Yes I’ve heard all the Decware amps, owned three different ones, and I would not give up my Jupitered Torii III for use when it comes to full-rangers, which after 35 years of chasing the audio holy grail, I feel I have finally arrived at what has been a permanent destination for nearly three years(which is a freaking eternity in the audio evolution of components passing thru my system).  If there’s better attainable sound out there than a Torii 3 and crossoverless full-rangers – I haven’t heard it yet – at any price.  Course we all know this is 110% subjective…   But if you get a chance to hear a properly functioning Torii III and some full-rangers, with a decent front-end, do yourself a favor and have a listen…   It might just get you off the equipment merry-go-round… if, that is indeed your goal.  I have converted two of my local audio buds to Torii’s and high-sensitivity speaks.  One has a Torii 3/Decware HDT system now and the other guy already had Avantgarde Duo’s that he was driving w/BAT mono’s – which he sold them after hearing my Torii drive them and then got himself a Torii III.  I’m just saying….. to each his own, but expose yourself to as much as possible and then “pick” your sound and drive toward it… if you don’t have a chosen “destination”, you can never get “there”.  
Now go sit down in your easy chair with your favorite beverage, put on your favorite tunes, relax, unwind and stop stressing about audio component "absolutes"... they don't exist!!!   Grin
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....
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will
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #116 - 04/16/15 at 00:29:34
 
Quote:
What the IV lacks, that is an absolute requirement IMO, for obtaining audio nirvana with single driver , high-efficiency, full-range crossoverless speakers, is the treble shunt control on the III.  


As I said, the MKIV has one, just covering less ground.

Quote:
If there’s better attainable sound out there than a Torii 3 and crossoverless full-rangers – I haven’t heard it yet – at any price. Course we all know this is 110% subjective…


It does not at all surprise me that the MKIII sounds great with the right single driver speakers, though in the context of this post, I get a sort of absolute and general vibe from this statement, especially with all the full range options out there. Are you using the 12" Anlico Audio Nirvanas and Augies now. I bet that is very impressive!

Quote:
if you don’t have a chosen “destination”, you can never get “there”.


The aspects of musical presentation are so vast, I have some touchstones, but mainly I just go for more beauty and never really know exactly how it will manifest. And when it really hits, it is just touching beauty...indescribable. Starting with good stuff and digging deeper seems to always lead to new places for me. I have had a basic thread though, with a couple quite similar iterations of Steve and Bob's explorations.

The challenges for me are two: that recordings are so variable; and that every time I seek and find a refinement, it all gets better! These keep my eyes and ears open for good value refinements.

I feel like everywhere I go these days is refinement though, not a merry-go-round. But I have been close to ordering some drivers and making a pair of speakers for a long time, and with your comments and others, I am getting closer. I appreciate that. Trouble is the way my system is now, I don't really feel the need! Cool
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mark58
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #117 - 04/16/15 at 00:34:41
 
+1  You are a wise man Maddog, entirely too much time spent obsessing about gear and not enough relaxing with the Music.  This is the only point of all this, after all.

I do wish Steve would have left the Bass and Treble controls as is on the Torii  MK IV.  I've even been very close to buying MK IIIs in the past but someone saves me by eventually buying them.  Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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mark58
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #118 - 04/16/15 at 01:27:03
 
OK,  just for the record.  This is from the Torii owners manuals...Hope it helps.  Mark.

Treble Adjust on MK IV
This control adjusts the high treble above 8kHz by around 3dB - although that figure can be higher or lower depending on the impedance curve of the actual loudspeaker the amp is hooked up to. The adjustment is intended to be subtle.

Bass and Treble Controls on the MK III
The treble and bass controls for each channel are less than conventional. The treble control is a simple shunt to ground meaning it's not in the signal path. It was designed to roll off the top end frequencies should they become too loud. There is no “flat” position of this control because it changes from one loudspeaker to another. It has to be set by ear. One way to do this is to simply turn it all the way down (counter clockwise)
and then slowly raise it until you're satisfied with the amount of treble.
The Bass Control is not a frequency adjustment as the name would suggest. Instead what this control does is allow you to adjust how much interaction your loudspeaker has with the amplifier. This works by placing the voice coil of your loudspeaker in parallel with the cathode resistor of the input stage in this amplifier. As the impedance rises the
gain of the amplifier is reduced in real time as the music plays. The control simply lets you vary how much this happens. The result varies widely from one speaker to another so again there is no such thing as a “flat” position on the control. In fact it can even work backwards with some speakers, so you simply have to listen and adjust. I usually start with the Bass Control fully counter clockwise and experiment from there.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Palomino
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #119 - 04/16/15 at 01:57:43
 
I, Palomino do hereby retrack my statements comparing Decware
amps.
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mark58
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #120 - 04/16/15 at 02:02:12
 
mmmm...Sounds like the beginning of a 12 step program for audiophiles.  Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #121 - 04/16/15 at 02:10:46
 
I'm going to need a sponsor.  Can't be Raven!
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ProggRob
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #122 - 04/16/15 at 02:22:50
 
Don't let 'em get to you Palomino.  We will evaluate all we want in the context of our own systems.  People just need to recognize that our statements are opinion and pertain only to the room in which we are listening.
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Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #123 - 04/16/15 at 12:09:43
 
I'm so misunderstood!  Seriously, I think good points were made in the ensuing posts, but I again want to emphasize that my response started out as a somewhat tongue in check, rock paper scissors response to that trouble making, higher wattage SET seeker, Fireblade.  It was not meant as any kind of absolute, definitive amp selection guide.

Anyway, back to the treble shunt.  After messing with this for a couple of months, I think I know why Steve "limited" it.  I don't think anybody would use 3/4 of the range on the MK III.  It's just too flat.  Also, if you are not careful on the III to get the left and right side exactly the same, it can tilt your soundstage.

And back to the original thread subject, I am gearing up for the next CDApS meeting at my place.  I even swept the carpet.

I "think" I am getting pretty good sound and tamed my bass issue a bit but want outside confirmation.

I also took a risk and ordered an array of these diffusers:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261833417920?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STR...

They are based on the work by this fellow:

http://arqen.com/sound-diffusers/

I have built a prototype of his stepped diffuser and it is by far the easiest to build of the DIY designs out there.  I only did a 2' version one night as an experiment so I can't really say how it works.

I was impressed by what Raven's styro diffusers bring to the table for so little money and having built a few diffusers (a pain), these seemed worth a try.  Plus I need to hang these on the rear wall and all these wood designs are so heavy.

He has a deal going on right now, where I got an array of 5 (stepped at various heights per the optimal design) for around $150 shipped.  It's an introductory offer as he is trying to build some cred on ebay.  

I have talked with him on the phone and he's a decent guy.  He's having trouble getting my order out due to some equipment issues but they should ship later this week.  He's going to send me a video of the CNC foam cutting machine creating a diffuser.  I am a sucker for videos showing CNC, 3D printing etc.  

Anyway, with these on the back wall, I think my room is pretty close to being what I can make out of it and will be anxious to see what you guys think.

Having heard both tlarwa's and your room Rob, the bar is high, but I hope to be up to the challenge.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #124 - 04/16/15 at 12:29:57
 
Hey Pal, I actually think Steve made the treble cut circuit change in the IV for circuit need reasons. But I want to say that I for one use the full range of the treble cut, I think the most that I ever have the treble up is 1/3 from full counter-clockwise. And I suspect that would be very different in a treated room, but I don't foresee being able to do any room treatments in the rest of this decade or beyond, so that's not a route for me. So I'm grateful every day for both the treble and bass controls on the Torii Mk III, they save my bacon and make digital possible for me. (I have less issues with vinyl).
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #125 - 04/16/15 at 12:33:07
 
We want more!
Pals on home turf this time.
Augie blaugie.
Bat `em  off the park Pal.
Smiley
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #126 - 04/16/15 at 12:58:44
 
Trouble maker? Stressed out? I think the only people stressed over this are the ones complaining ... I enjoy (and is part of the hobby for me) to learn about the intricacies in the Decware range choices and experiences.

Right now, I'm torn between the UFO mod Super Zen and a refurbished Torii MKIII with Bees Wax Caps. The Mini Torii would still fit right into these to scenarios to complement either one.

Palomino, those diffusors look nice and are cheaper than the ones at PI Audio Group. Please let us know how these sound, as I'm about to order them too. I hope that won't be trouble making?  :)

One last thing: I believe in allowing people to express themselves as they wish, and to enrichen this forum with diverse points of view ... I just don't see why would anyone complain about things they don't care for, as if their views were universal ..  Man!
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Palomino
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #127 - 04/16/15 at 13:17:36
 
Psssssst, buy the Torii on eBay.  It's a steal.

I am waiting on Rob to upgrade to UFO to hear it.  I may loan him Rachael to make sure he goes through with it.
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mark58
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #128 - 04/16/15 at 13:28:48
 
Fireblade,  I can't imagine not having both a Small 2 WPC Zen Amp and a Torii but if forced to make the choice you have posed...No question, go with the Torii MK III with Bees Wax Caps.

Also, not to get into another debate, but my post affirming Maddog's post, is an OPINION.  It was also meant to poke fun at those heavily obsessed with the minutiae...I hope it was taken this way. I wasn't complaining. Sometimes we should lighten up and not take this enjoyable hobby so seriously or the opinions expressed by those on the forum. Have fun, for God's sake!

I too enjoy reading all the posts of those who tie themselves into Knots looking for each subtlety.  I'm often intrigued with all the Audio prose...Will comes to mind...but sometimes it's Greek to me.  I'm just a Dumb guy who mostly listens and says...I like it or not.   Mark.  

PS...The Torii III on ebay is a bit over priced...I think it has bees wax caps but no where does he say this.  Also note it has the transformer for 8 to 16 ohm speakers rather than the standard 4 and 8 ohm version transformer...this may be great if you have 16 ohm Zu Audio speakers...not so great if you have Decware 4 ohm speakers.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Palomino
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #129 - 04/16/15 at 14:07:59
 
There was a III out there at $2150 with Vcaps just yesterday, I thought.   The $2850 one is overpriced.  Maybe I was looking at Agon or something.

mark58, guilty as charged.  Audio is a perfect hobby outlet for my constant need to improve things.  I got a little uppity at some of the comments with my declaration post, but I am (as my kids say) chill now.

Fireblade, I was teasing with the troublemaker comment, but you have to admit you like to put a little pepper in the pot now and again and make us think.

Lon, thanks for correcting the record on the IV treble shunt.  That's some serious treble shunting you are doing, but hey, whatever gets you to Zenzinatti.

Since I am in a proclamation mood, I will offer another one.

I, Palomino, Secretary/Treasurer of CDApS, do hereby swear to loan my blacktop, jup'd Rachael plus a set of Decware silver interconnects to Rob, a CDApS member in good standing, should he decide to go for the UFO mod on his Zen.  The term of the loan shall be the length of time his Zen is in the shop plus a reasonable number of days for the scheduled return to my massive Decware amp stable.

My only requirement in return is that he invites me back to his house to hear the most transparent amp in the Decware lineup (there I go again...can't help myself).
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ProggRob
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #130 - 04/16/15 at 15:35:38
 
Quote:
I, Palomino, Secretary/Treasurer of CDApS, do hereby swear to loan my blacktop, jup'd Rachael plus a set of Decware silver interconnects to Rob, a CDApS member in good standing, should he decide to go for the UFO mod on his Zen.  The term of the loan shall be the length of time his Zen is in the shop plus a reasonable number of days for the scheduled return to my massive Decware amp stable.


Signed,
ProggRob, April 16, 2015
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Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
Power: TWL 7+ and Digital, UberBUSS, Furutech Outl
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will
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #131 - 04/16/15 at 16:01:50
 
I think the feeling that "my system, room and tastes"  is a relevant common reference is an easy thing. It is for each of us. And that "my solutions are THE solutions," also easy, when it works for "me." This is such a cool thing the CDApS, you guys have loads references when you consider all that makes the sound, and with a common thread of Decware!

But also, I am really content in the solo journey. I enjoy lots of music every day, and enjoy the minutia of exploration toward greater beauty and refinement in this room. I like making adjustments because it makes the musical experience better, AND I really enjoy the process....no knot ties here in that.... It is carrying the deep creative process of Steve and Bob and the rest of the unrelenting explorers who made my gear, and making it my creative process. The distinction between interesting creative exploration for true beauty and obsession is there, and without it, we wouldn't have these amazing amps, DACs, speakers etc..

How far the the exploration goes for each of us is different, and we are all lucky, we can make great systems with stock gear. Then most of us mix and match to refine the system and room. I just like to go deeper and deeper as I learn, and instead of trading something that is almost amazing for me, but obviously has that potential, why not adjust/modify it if I can. Then many get into building gear to suit settings, tastes, and creative process...Luckily we can get really, really good with stock gear and stock solutions, but also with great starts, we can go as deep as we want!

In this, the complexity of music and musical instrument presentation is something that always amazes me. For retrieving the vast complexity of sound from any complex instrument is fun as could be for me, and then to have it work beautifully for the whole group on many recordings, aaahhhh, so beautiful...the music takes me away. Then a little shift here, leads to refinements that create a different expression of the beauty, a new variation of the expression in this room.

So the innate variables of how the whole expresses by adjusting with this or that tube, cable, speaker placement, noise grabber, fuse shift etc, opens new doors, and once it is all tuned, a new way of experiencing the beauty that is deeper than before. It is like a constantly unfolding puzzle that is always shifting, just like life. As we change, the puzzle changes, and as the puzzle changes we change....in this context, I see the system and room much like a living organism. The beginning is where I start today, no end in sight.

In time, these ongoing, deepening variations of beautiful musical expression  enliven and enrich my experience of the music I listen to.

This is how it is for me anyway.


PS: FireBlade...Speaking of the vast variations of how we adjust pieces of gear, systems and rooms...variations that can make the same thing different here or there....

I love my MKIII, but as Palomino points to, the MKIII can be difficult with bass. I would say these are not necessarily "his" bass issues, but something the amp can demand fixing in many rooms. Not everyone has it, but I recall your having bass issues with your system at some point so I wanted to mention it just in case. It may put you to work.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #132 - 04/16/15 at 16:27:53
 
Thanks Will for including us on your journey.  I appreciate your artistic approach.  Your post a few weeks back was great and gave me lots to think about.

I have done a couple of things to address my bass issue.  The most significant was removing the book cases in the front of my room.  There was a resonance between these that was causing big time bass bloom.  I measured it and can't recall how much louder the 100hz tone was,  but it was considerable.

So they had to go.  I don't know where I am going to put all my tapes and books, but they have been moved to the next room and current sit on top of an air hockey table.

I also have started to explore various cables (per member suggestions).  My first experiment was with a Stereovox digital coax I bought from Stone.  I wasn't expecting a great deal of improvement (and told myself I wouldn't gush), but its a considerable step forward in bass grip.  It does other things well, but in terms of bass, its very noticeable.

Last night, with both these changes, I played a particularly tough track from Beck's latest album and it was much more tolerable.  Not perfect at all, but when I played this for Raven a few weeks ago it was so bad, he made me stop after a few seconds.

So the journey continues.

If you guys want to see some real forum bickering, I would point you in the direction of the sailing forums I frequent.  Talk about salty dogs.  I actually don't go there much any more for this reason.  A sailing friend of mine lost his job a few years ago and is currently pursuing his own venture which is a forum software designed to foster productive, fact based & supported discourse.  I haven't seen it, but it sounds pretty cool.
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i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
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ProggRob
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #133 - 04/16/15 at 16:53:54
 
Quote:
But also, I am really content in the solo journey. I enjoy lots of music every day, and enjoy the minutia of exploration toward greater beauty and refinement in this room. I like making adjustments because it makes the musical experience better, AND I really enjoy the process....no knot ties here in that....


I was on the solo journey too Will before I met up with Palomino and Raven, but I enjoy it more with company.  Of course it was and will remain fun a solo endeavor.  Not everything will be accomplished with 2nd and 3rd opinions but nonetheless preferred.

I may speak for myself here, but I don't want have the "knot tying" exaggerated.  When you reach a certain level of sonic performance, discussing, identifying and exploiting the minute differences among equipment, cables, room treatments etc. are where all the time gets spent.  It can be frustrating when results aren't yielded, or your point of view gets turned upside-down, made even worse by the amount of money that gets spent!  You'll find some of that on this forum and perhaps more so in others.  But it is this worthy pursuit that takes a good system to great, and and great system to one with musical and emotional teleportation powers.  

I love being in this position, however, it isn't for everyone.  I will lay bare my audio obsession despite others who think I'm crazy.
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Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
Power: TWL 7+ and Digital, UberBUSS, Furutech Outl
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ProggRob
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #134 - 04/16/15 at 17:08:00
 
Palomino, I'm glad you like your new digital cable!  I'm a big believer in the impact digital cables can have.  I evaluated many last fall via Cable Co's Cable Library, and ended up with the High Fidelity CT-1E.  

This list of cables this one bested: Grover Huffman ZX+, Synergistic Research Element Series Copper, Snake River Audio Boomslang, Stereolab Master Reference 818, Shunyata Python.

The detail this cable was able to present is pretty amazing.  I think it enabled some of that layering to come through the Zen that you heard last week.

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Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
Power: TWL 7+ and Digital, UberBUSS, Furutech Outl
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #135 - 04/16/15 at 17:15:58
 
Hmm, we may have to have a cable-off at the next session.  The one I bought from Stone was a little long in the tooth and thus not expensive, but consider me a believer.
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Archie
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #136 - 04/16/15 at 17:40:06
 
Jeeze everybody, too much focus! Turn off your amps and go outside for some fresh air! Cheesy
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #137 - 04/16/15 at 21:56:47
 
Fireblade wrote on 04/16/15 at 12:58:44:
Trouble maker? Stressed out? I think the only people stressed over this are the ones complaining ... I enjoy (and is part of the hobby for me) to learn about the intricacies in the Decware range choices and experiences.

Right now, I'm torn between the UFO mod Super Zen and a refurbished Torii MKIII with Bees Wax Caps. The Mini Torii would still fit right into these to scenarios to complement either one.

Palomino, those diffusors look nice and are cheaper than the ones at PI Audio Group. Please let us know how these sound, as I'm about to order them too. I hope that won't be trouble making?  :)

One last thing: I believe in allowing people to express themselves as they wish, and to enrichen this forum with diverse points of view ... I just don't see why would anyone complain about things they don't care for, as if their views were universal ..  Man!


I've thought about this a lot and out of the Super Zen and Torii, if I could only have one amp it would be the Torii.  Yes you may give up some SET magic, but honestly there are just a couple handfuls of speakers that 2 watts can drive.  So unless you have found your dream speakers and they happen to be really efficient and never plan on experimenting again than the Torii opens more doors.  

Of course owning both amps would be better! Grin
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #138 - 04/17/15 at 01:11:21
 
I know is not the same thing, but I already have a nice SEP (Mini Torii), so I would be giving out even less on that Torii choice ... Now, if I could invest what was going to pay for the P3 and find a nice refurbished, full warranty Torii MKIII with Bees Wax Caps, I would jump on it!

BTW, Palomino and Mark58,

I was also teasing ...  no worries!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #139 - 04/17/15 at 13:55:09
 

Man I love how this thread is growing - we needed more discussions like this at Decware.

Re: ProggRob UFO - I'm so glad Palomino offered up his (better!) Rachel for Rob to borrow in order to help prompt him to send in his amp. I was going to suggest that, but I've been too much the instigator as of late. Hell, I'll even drive the amp down to Steve for Rob at this point.  :)

Re: Cables - I'm a skeptic of digital cables making *that* much of a difference. But I'm also spoiled by a DAC that's pretty cable agnostic. Just like my ZMA is very power agnostic. I guess I made things easy for myself - as long as whatever cable isn't holding the system back, it sounds good. So I really don't see much of a lift when I make changes.

Re: next CDaPs - I'm really looking forward to listening to Pal's setup. I really believe he's got a talent for experimenting and adjusting. I come in to spot issues or verify a fix, and he just keeps working away at it till the next visit. Add on these new diffusers and I'm really excited to check out the room!

I think there was more I wanted to comment on...but I've lost track. I'm going to queue up some tracks and try out some new input tubes on the ZMA.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #140 - 04/17/15 at 14:13:18
 
Rachael?  Better?!  Haven't you been reading the thread, there is no hierarchy of Decware amps.   Wink
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #141 - 04/17/15 at 14:15:48
 
I have learned the enabling game from a master enabler.  I only seek to pay homage to my Sensei.

I do have an ulterior motive though and that is to hear my Rachael in Rob's system.  Both of you have me interested in exploring this balanced input thing as well.  

A cable comparo would be easy to do at the next meeting.  Your DAC may be somewhat less cable affected, but mine definitely is not.  Either my old cable was pretty basic or this cable is pretty good.  Probably a combo.  After listening for a couple of days, I am thinking about dialing back the amp.  The dynamics jump out and whack you upside the head.  

Luckily I have this ol' Torii and can futz with it pretty easy.  I flipped the bias switch but don't know what I think about how it sounds yet.  I am thinking about going back to some more laid back rectifiers I have.  Then there are the comments about getting away from silver in my interconnects.  The thing is its not bright, its just dynamic, intense and detailed across the frequency range.

It may sound like I never listen to music.  Problem is I spend too much time listening to music.  But I also don't sleep 8 hours a night and I like to stay busy.

As Eric and Rob know, I am now messing around with a design that makes building a QRD7 easier and cheaper.   The jury is still out on whether this formula will really be a QRD7 for the masses as I had hoped.  But here is the tease...you can do it with a trip to Menards, $57 and a table saw.

Also, my Styrofoam diffusers should be here Saturday or Monday.  I will be hanging them on my back wall.  If they help my room sound like Eric's styro's did, my brain is going to explode with the combo of good diffusion and the way my system sounds right now.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #142 - 04/17/15 at 14:17:08
 
The better reference is one has Jup's and the other is plain ol vanilla Rachael.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #143 - 04/17/15 at 14:25:57
 
Oh, and the other thing I have been trying is varying the gain out of the Mac Mini and the volume on the Torii.  I haven't had the time to work with this much, so if anyone can weigh in on how they do this to get the right dynamic balance, I am all ears.

And yes, I know I will no longer  be outputting bit perfect using gain on the mini.  So far, I am not too hung up on the bit perfect thing.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #144 - 04/17/15 at 15:06:00
 

Well, you saw what an issue *not* being bit perfect caused before - so feel free to go down that road, but I'd rather avoid it if I can. Hopefully it works out for you. That's another advantage of the Decware DAC, which is probably why I'm biased towards always bit-perfect.  :)


Hey Rob, you do anything with the diffusers I left over there?? Or is that why we've not heard much from you lately?  :)  Thoughts?

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #145 - 04/17/15 at 16:08:11
 
The issue before was due to monkeying with Audirvana setting.  Once I went back to the defaults, everything snapped back into place.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #146 - 04/17/15 at 21:22:31
 
Everyone enjoy the get together this weekend. I am enjoying this thread and look forward to your ongoing experiences!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #147 - 04/17/15 at 21:36:01
 
Acetone, no CDApS meeting this weekend.  My other thread alludes to a friend just getting into high end.  Raven and Palomino don't know him yet, but I'm grooming a future member.  He's just not ready for our level of intensity, LOL.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #148 - 04/17/15 at 22:09:42
 
I reached out to another Naperville guy to see if he might want to join.  He had a Torii at one time and I got to know him when he was selling.

Anyway, on the bit perfect thing.  I am too lazy for bit perfect as I would have to get up and adjust the volume on the amp.  I listen to too wide a variety of music in a session to jump up and down.  I'm a plopper.

I have become a dedicated SD card person.  Much bigger soundstage versus the external drive - even when I run that external drive on a battery.  Audirvana on RAM disk and music on a 32GB flash drive.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #149 - 04/21/15 at 18:18:21
 
Just an update on my diffuser experimentation.   As I mentioned earlier, I purchased these diffusers at the promotional price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261833417920?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STR...

They are based on the work by Tim Perry:

http://arqen.com/sound-diffusers/

I received them yesterday.  They were packaged in a pretty cool way and arrived unscathed.  These are made from a single block of high density polystyrene using a CNC hot wire cutter.  After they are cut, they are then primed and returned back to the block they were cut out of for shipping.  Pretty clever.



I purchased an array of 5 for the back wall of my room.  These stepped fractals benefit from and array of 3, 5, 7 etc.   Currently they rest on a desk/table in the rear of my room.  I will hang them once I paint them.  They come with screws and wire to hang each one.



I have not spent a lot of time with these, but I can say they exceed the dispersion capabilities of the 3 QRD diffusors I previously had on the rear wall.  Soundstage is wider and walls disappear a little better.  They also diffuse the high frequencies better allowing better separation and more detail to come through.

The range on these is supposed to be from around 500Hz to 3Khz+.

I thought I also sensed a touch better bass definition, but didn’t think that could happen given the range.  Then I received a note from the manufacturer stating the following:

Also I am doing some research on them and since the panels are made of a homogeneous, light, substance they have clear resonances if they are made to vibrate. This frequency varies on the thickness of the panel but the test panel I have had a clear resonant frequency of 65Hz (plus smaller ones at 38Hz and 210Hz. This is kind of cool because this means that the diffusers, especially when hanging on the wall, will absorb some low frequency by converting the wave energy into heat (vibrations in the actual panel). I am not sure if the effect will be noticeable but low end modes are also a big problem in small rooms so it can't hurt.

I tried my newly made “budget” QRD7s (to be discussed in another thread), in the front of the room to compliment these and did not like the result. I did like the 7’s in the back of the room (part of the 3 QRD I mention above).

At the next CDApS meeting, we’ll experiment with placement of my growing diffuser collection and report back.

I think these are definitely worth a look.  Especially if you have room for an array.  There have been three people provide feedback so far.  The deal is extended to the first 5 to provide feedback.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #150 - 04/21/15 at 18:49:21
 
Ha! Those things are shipping from just a few miles away from my work.
They do look nice.
The wife might not even mind them being on the wall in what is supposed to be "my" basement. lol
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #151 - 04/22/15 at 14:18:02
 
They are pretty artistic looking.  And as long as you use water based paint, you can paint them how you want.  I am thinking about alternating the colors on each panel.

I have spent some more time with these and another observation I have is how even the soundstage is.  I think they must diffuse across a pretty wide band (as advertised) to provide such a smooth presentation.

I am digging through tracks to find the most ambient ones because they are a real treat.

Since my QRDs that these replaced are not working in the front of the room, I am experimenting with how they sound in other places.  So far, no luck.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #152 - 04/22/15 at 15:39:06
 

Maybe try the array in the front, and QRD in the rear?

Worst case, might need array front and rear.

Also, feel free to borrow my foam diffusers and try to mix and match. Rob has them now.

One way or another we'll figure out what works. You could maybe even need something on the ceiling to help balance out.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #153 - 04/22/15 at 15:56:11
 
I may try the QRD array in the front.  

My most recent try was the two QRDs in the front with a gap in the center.  That killed the image and boosted the bass.  The reason I tried that was when I put a single QRD in the center, the center image became fuzzy.  The array may be the ticket.

I did lay the QRDs sideways across the back on the floor and thought that actually helped.  Do people run QRDs sideways??

It will be trial and error and CDApS demoing.  I trust Raven/Rob combo will help me sort this out.

BTW, I could easily try yours in an array across the back for A/B.  That's one of the nice things about these stryro diffusers.  You can move them around easily.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #154 - 04/22/15 at 16:25:16
 
Palo...I run 2 of my PI panels 'sideways'.  I've read somewhere in Steve's papers that it help increase soundstage height. It's working for me....but, I am still tweaking.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #155 - 04/22/15 at 16:48:55
 

With the foam diffusers, I put some "sideways" in the front, and on *one* side wall, mostly because they were easier to stack than stand-up on the skinny base. And I really enjoyed the sound.

But then, I also have Omni-fuser diffusers on my ceiling - so any sound I bounce upwards gets further diffused.

We may just need to bring all available diffusers over to your place and let you have at it for a week or two and see what you come up with. Each room is different, and you've got a good ear for shaping the soundfield - so I'm sure you'll get it eventually.

Note: I still think you might need some more absorbers. I know you think you have a lot - but your offsetting some of that absorption with diffusion.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #156 - 04/24/15 at 15:13:52
 

I got this in E-mail, and I was expecting I'd be upset about their suggestions as to what are myths...but this is pretty good. And they reference Dennis at Acoustic Fields - which you guys know I like.

Room Acoustic Myths

http://audiophilereview.com/room-acoustics/the-top-4-acoustic-myths-that-need-to...


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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #157 - 04/24/15 at 16:10:37
 
Palo,

I'd like to run through a couple of your scenarios on the diffuser front.  If you can narrow it down to 2 possible configurations we can do an A/B, and then afterward possibly let Raven and I change a couple things for an option C.  I'm sure there are dozens of variations possible so you've got your hands full!  I haven't heard your system before so I'd like to spent some time upfront getting to know it "as is", the more scenarios we add the more confused my little brain becomes.

I've had Raven's diffusers for a couple weeks now, and while I haven't done a lot of experimentation with them I have a few takeaways:

- The foam material definitely has a different sound than wood.  Sounds have an "edge" that, while superior to no diffusion at all, is not preferable to me vs. Palo's wooden QRD13s.  I probably won't buy the PI Audio diffusers.  Also, they make me terribly nervous with the children.  I'd hate to buy them only to have a curious child snap off a fin.

- I don't like them on the front wall because of the impacts it has on imaging.  Perhaps a different design or mounted in a central location under my TV would work better, but positioned behind the speakers is not an improvement.

- They are, by far, most impactful (in a positive way) at the 2nd reflection points.  I hear less differences behind the listening position and could probably live without them here.  A couple of kick-ass diffusers at the 2nd reflection point would make me a happy dude.

- I do not prefer these diffusors at the 1st reflection points vs. my GIK 244 traps with the 1D scattering plate.  The GIKs seem to do a better job here.  I don't have words for it right now, but I like the absorption/diffusion mix these offer vs. pure diffusion.

We also wanted to do some cable swaps if I'm not mistaken.  I can bring over the HFC digital cable to compare to your XV2.  I did a final comparo yesterday with this cable vs. the Grover Huffman ZX+ and the Grover got beaten soundly.  

Rob
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #158 - 04/24/15 at 16:57:18
 
I`ve got a floor carpet, large rug, 9ft x 6ft right above the audio set up, in front of me. It covers the whole wall widthways and is raised so that it nearly reaches the ceiling. It`s hung so there is an inch gap between it and the wall. I suppose it`s 1/2 inch thick with the pile. Not expensive and bought for the purpose.
Theory is that any reflected sound hits the carpet, doesn`t reflect, loses some energy to pass through, hits the wall, bounces back, loses more energy to pass back through. Not a diffuser but a decorative semi absorber. I`d prefer to call it a sound damper.
I cant compare it to other treatments but I`m happy with it. If it were flat against the wall then it wouldn`t satisfy my criteria of doing something which makes a positive contribution.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #159 - 04/24/15 at 16:58:27
 
I have tried a number of variations with diffuser and absorbers in different position.  I am finding some similar things but some differences as well.

1.  I don't find that the styro stepped (SS) diffusers have a "sound" yet.

2.  The SS seem to have a more smooth diffusion across the frequency range versus the QRDs being much more mid range focused.

3. Wood QRDs at the second reflection point do seem to provide me with the best diffusion - at least the most noticeable.  If I remove these, it all falls apart.

4. Absorbers at the first reflection point is still better than diffusion.

5.  At first I thought I preferred no diffusion up front, but now with an array of 3 QRDs up front, a QRD at each second reflection point and the SS array in the back is my preferred setup.  This seems to optimize diffusion while still providing a focused center image.  I'll continue to experiment with this to be sure.

6.  I believe the SS diffusers in the back do help with diffusion but don't think they alone would give me what I am getting with the combo.

Raven is coming over a little pre-Axpona listen.  Feel free to come by and bring a cable or two.  Just don't bring anything that I will feel I can't live without. Wink

Also, if anybody is interested in my $60 Menards special QRD7 design, let me know and I will send you my instructions or post them.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #160 - 04/26/15 at 14:22:03
 
Well we held our pre-axpona CDApS meeting yesterday and thanks to Rob and Raven I believe I am a step closer to getting my room right.

Raven arrived first, so we played with some combinations.  With/without diffusion up front...some positioning of a stepped diffuser sideways on top of the QRDs, etc.  Rob was able to weigh in once he got there on what we settled on.

Bottom line is that Raven confirmed my 3 QRDs up front, one on each side at secondary reflection points and stepped fractal array in the back is the best setup.

A couple of issues I still need to deal with though...

While I love what the diffusers up front do, they also seem to limit the height of my soundstage.  Raven suggested elevating them 2 ft.  Everything I have except the rear array sits on the floor and is 48" high.

I sh*t you not, Raven said he could hear the window that is on the left front side of my room.  It is covered by a mini-blind so you can't see opening behind it and he suggested I plug that opening with something.  I said "I already did" but then opened the blind and sure enough, found that the insulation board I had used to plug the hole had fallen back into the window frame (it goes back about 6").  So I need to fix that and perhaps use a different material.

You can hear (or sense) other stuff in the room as well.  It doubles as my office on back end, so I can't pull the desk out.  I have already pulled out the book cases in the front of the room that held lots of family video tapes and some books.  I still haven't found a home in another room for those.  Anyway, you can "hear" that desk.

Finally, I still have my bass problem around 100hz.  It's more evident on songs where that bass frequency is more prevalent, but when you hear it, you cringe.  I saw an example of a helmholtz resonator that I think I could build at Axpona, so that could be in the works.

If anyone is wondering what I have invested in absorbers/diffusers, well, I figured it out yesterday.  Because of deals and DIY, I am currently invested to the tune of $750.  Do they look beautiful?  No.  Do they work?  Yes.

Speaking of beautiful, we saw some really great looking diffusers at Axpona yesterday.  Eric knows what kind they are, but they look about twice as time consuming to build and look fantastic.  Unfortunately, each one runs about what I have totally invested in treatments.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #161 - 04/26/15 at 15:31:30
 
Quote:
Bottom line is that Raven confirmed my 3 QRDs up front, one on each side at secondary reflection points and stepped fractal array in the back is the best setup.


I would like to point out - this is what I predicted/suggested would be your end result. Smiley  Your room has for sure leveled up - It's amazing how the diffusers helped balance the frequency response so much that it resulted in blacker background, and more defined space between the instruments! I'm still trying to wrap my head around how diffusers give you blacker background - but we proved it by swapping diffusers for absorbers. IMHO - absorbers are a band-aid, diffusers can be a fix (for certain frequencies - if you have enough room in your room)

Quote:
I sh*t you not, Raven said he could hear the window that is on the left front side of my room.


I honestly never really noticed you had a window there till your room got so well defined that I could literally "hear the window". To describe what we mean when we say we can hear a window or hear a desk - here is a little story that happened to me a long, long time ago; I had a small one bedroom apartment, and right after I met Steve and heard his heavily diffused room, I bought his plans and built a few of his diffusers and setup my little apartment listening room as best I could. I literally took out the laser pointer and tape measure and got everything physically balanced left, right, front, and back as best as I could to within 1/4" or better if I could (a method I still use today). One day while trying to show to an interested friend what all this effort produced - we were both listening with our eyes closed, and suddenly the sound field shifted! The reverb in the recording started to flex and bend like the room the recording was done in was bending or something. It absolutely snapped me out of listening mode with a WTF is THAT! My eyes popped open and I see my cat casually walking across the the living room between us and the speakers. I look over at my friend Jason and he's got the same WTF look on his face. The cat, just a typical Bengal (nothing ordinary about a Bengal LOL) was walking across the carpet, and his body was causing an imbalance in the sound field and reflections that we could hear!! And keep in mind, these were standard tower speakers, and my cat isn't 4' tall. Think of it like this - imagine the speakers as bright headlights projecting light into the room. All reflective objects are bouncing that light around, and this little 8" tall, 22# cat (he was all muscle) was casting a shadow that we could hear!!

So bring this back into Palomino's room - he's got these absorbers and diffusers in the room, balancing things quite well, and his speakers and seating placement have been tweaked in a year of listening. Everything sounds good, but I can hear something off on the left side...up high...I open my eyes and hey...there's a window there I never noticed. Listen more carefully, and I think I can hear a glassy sound...oh, and a bird tweeting. "I think you need to plug that window".  

I've caught Steve like this before - he'll be showing something off, and I keep hearing something off, looking over my shoulder to figure what's going on. He's got a lot of speakers and gear in the room so it's hard to place what's off or out of place. He sees me not looking relaxed (Steve reads body language when he has guests over for a listen by the way, and he's gotten good at it over the years LOL), and asks what's up. I tell him something over my left shoulder sounds weird (mind you, not surround sound, speakers are up front), and he's like Oh Shit, I forgot to cover the movie screen; pulls some little curtains over the screen and blamo, the world is right.

So if you're not hearing the *things* in your room...well, life is probably a lot easier for you. LOL But it also says your room isn't setup well enough to allow the music to stretch out and open up and take over your room. Yes, yes, yes. I'm sure you've got soundstage and your walls disappear and bla bla bla. But there are different levels to that; just like there are different levels of how good speakers, and cables, and DACs and Cartridges sound like, right? Well, I thought Palomino's room was great before, and it's leveled up now. He's got it on a different plain of existence LOL.

Is it up to the level of sound I heard at Steve's listening room back in '98? Honestly, not even close. Well, OK, he's maybe half-way there.  :-?

So if his room is so good sounding, how is it only half-way there?!?

Steve had more airspace. Sound needs room to stretch.

Steve had wall-to-wall diffusers, plus the diagphragmatic bass traps.

Steve's room was 100% dedicated. There was nothing in the room, but the audio gear (original Zen amp, $200 Denon CD, and his one off speakers), diffusers and bass traps, and a chair. *Nothing* else. No racks of albums, bookcases, desks, couches, pictures of Jimi Hendrix. Nothing.

Steve's speakers were super anal-detailed, and he dialed them in to that room. So he had imaging like nothing I've ever heard since, layering, and micro-detail. In that room, I understood what Steve says when he talked about "out of body experience", because I had left the room!

Could Steve's room have been better? YES! Today we understand a lot more about acoustics and acoustic treatments. His old room probably had a peak in the frequency response due to having too many of the *same* diffusers. We also have great tools for measuring the FR and decay time that just weren't available back then, except to the likes of Skywalker Ranch or other pro shops. So we could design room treatments to address that particular room's needs. Steve also didn't address the ceiling - I think we could have leveled up his room with that alone.

So imagine today's gear, a nice Torii or ZMA, plus a nice DAC or analog setup. Power Treatment and other tweaks and toys, and your favorite speakers. Then build a 100% dedicated and treated room.  :P  

Someday I'll get there. But it may have to wait till I get into another house. I'll literally buy a house based on being able to have a dedicated listening room with enough space, updated power, and start with an empty pallette for room treatment.

Sorry such a long post - but this all comes together, this journey we're taking. I felt I needed to explain some things, so those that may follow after us have an easier path and faster understanding.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #162 - 04/26/15 at 16:51:58
 
Trust but verify Wink  I trust you in everything but beer selection. Ouch



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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #163 - 04/26/15 at 23:52:24
 

I had a taste of that Zombie Dust you guys had, blech. Too bitter. The $20(!) Dogfish Head I had was good, although expensive.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #164 - 04/27/15 at 00:16:34
 
You are the only person I know who doesn't like it.  ;)
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #165 - 04/27/15 at 17:51:28
 
I was trying to rib you about the surprise $20 beer.  I liked the Rob suggested brews.  I should have tried some of your Dogfish (like maybe a $1's worth).

I sent you guys a photo of the elevated diffusers.  They do help with opening up the height of the soundstage.  I wanted to build legs for these, but I can't get into the wells on both sides for bolts.  So I'll have to do risers.  20" will put them midway between floor and ceiling.

I am also going to experiment with 3 QRDs 13s up front and the two QRD 7s on the sides.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #166 - 04/27/15 at 20:17:12
 

Helmholtz absorbers make great QRD diffuser stands!  :)
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #167 - 04/28/15 at 14:16:49
 
In today's installment of "diffusers for duffers," I will relay what I found out last night.  Sorry this has become a diffuser thread, but its what the CDApS guys are helping me with lately.

Anyway, I traded out the two outside QRD7's up front for the two QRD13's I had on the sides.  This gave me three QRD13's up front.  My two nicer ones and my prototype (which works pretty well considering).

Anyway, this array presents a noticeable difference.  The soundstage shrunk but the detail and focus increased with the QRD13s.  I thought that it sounded pretty good, but then I switched back and think I may leave the combo of two QRD7s and my prototype QRD13 up front.  It seems like a good trade-off for more of the wall of sound effect.  I would like to get other CDApS member input on this though because it could go either way.

I am getting great sound and really good detail due to what Raven termed a blacker background.  For example, most people can hear the "tape bleed" on Just a Little Lovin'.  But now I can actually get a pretty good count of the number of echos you can hear of 'this ol world' before she starts singing again.  I am not a detail freak, but this is some of what I can hear now.

Alas, I am still not hearing what I heard at Rob's.  The same level of layering and transparency is just not there.  I will put Rachael in as another test but I maintain my position that it's the Zen amp.  I'm not ruling out the balanced DAC input or even Rob's speakers, but my gut says "Zen."

I am on a spending freeze but once that is lifted, I will be sending Rachael back in for the UFO.  Perhaps that will help.

I put the El Caminos in last night as well.  When I want monster sound, these are my go to speakers.  My small room bass issue is exacerbated using these speakers, but I usually crank it up enough that I don't care.
Rob, we need to bring these over to your house to have a bass-off.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #168 - 04/28/15 at 14:59:37
 

If you can give me the *exact* measurement of the (slatwall) diffuser well *width*, I'll make you some well bottoms on my router table...and you can try a Nested QRD Diffuser.

The Slatwall diffusers are QRD 7, correct? If that's the case, I think I can do a nested QRD 7 in QRD 7 with new well bottoms. If this works well, I'm betting we could churn these out quickly and easily.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #169 - 04/28/15 at 15:07:37
 
I can get you the exact dimensions.  It's supposed to be 2 3/4".  The mid-slat groove to mid slat groove is 3" with 1/8" (half) of the fin on each side.

Not sure I can picture what these will look like.  Is it an insert with 7 router grooves to align with the different well depths?
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #170 - 04/28/15 at 15:13:55
 

Like this -



You make the slatwall diffuser, and I'll make the well bottoms using (at least) 3/4" poplar.

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #171 - 04/28/15 at 15:25:05
 
Are those well face grooves all cut at different depths?  So they are a mirror image of the overall diffuser profile?
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #172 - 04/28/15 at 15:45:35
 
No, it's not the same pattern. For some reason when you get to this (shallow) depth, it's more like a left-right mirror. So you cut left well, flip it, right well, change your depth and do it for the next set of wells till you get to the middle. Here is one I made about 6-7 years ago to break up some flutter echo in my home theater. I didn't have the precision fence and table router I have now, so this was all done by eyeball on the table saw - made from 20 year old oak stair treads.




So just imagine that, but sized down and cut into strips (with more precision) to fit the well bottoms of your slatwall. So your slatwall design doesn't change, I'll just design and build the well bottoms to fit your existing design.

Edit to add: at this (relatively) micro level - some of the rules of diffusion change. We need to worry about air viscosity, width of the individual wells, and well depth is less important. But, if done right, this would double the the high end reach of your slatwall diffuser.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #173 - 04/28/15 at 15:55:50
 
cool  sumbitch must weigh a ton.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #174 - 04/28/15 at 17:14:57
 
You've walked past it probably a dozen times already. Smiley

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #175 - 04/28/15 at 17:15:35
 
glad it didn't fall on me.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #176 - 04/29/15 at 15:49:43
 
Latest iteration:

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #177 - 04/29/15 at 16:50:21
 
Looking good Pal...I bet it sounds excellent too!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #178 - 04/29/15 at 16:55:49
 
Thanks

I am going to make some risers for everything (as opposed to milk crates), paint the styro diffusers in back and call it "a room" for a while.  I won't do much this summer once sailing starts.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #179 - 04/29/15 at 17:10:50
 
Do you guys know what brand of diffuser they were rockin in the Merrill Audio room?
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #180 - 04/29/15 at 17:13:19
 
I forget but Raven knows.

I think the white ones are from Scandinavia someplace.  The wood ones are similar but made in the Chicago area. I think he said around $750 a piece.  

Looked hard to make.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #181 - 04/30/15 at 05:57:03
 

I believe the local shop is cloning these products.

http://www.diffusor.com/Produkter.htm

There was a shop in Jersey that was importing them, but they don't anymore and wouldn't tell me why.

I'm reaching out to the local shop and getting prices on Helmholtz absorbers for Palo, and seeing if they have any B-stock or Ikea wing diffusers for sale at a more affordable price.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #182 - 04/30/15 at 22:26:06
 
Here is another link/pdf I found on the diffusers:

http://www.diffusor.com/PDF/Broschyr%202012%20LAYOUT_komp%20wing%20sida.pdf
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #183 - 04/30/15 at 23:34:25
 
Notice how they mention time delay? That's what I've been talking about with diffusers. That's part of what makes them so very much better than absorbers alone.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #184 - 04/30/15 at 23:45:19
 
Did you see the helmholz figures?
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #185 - 05/01/15 at 12:59:30
 

Yeah, but that's just to give you a heads up that there is some loss with the devices. The numbers are really low. Unless you had a fleet of these winged diffusers, it wouldn't impact your bass absorption much. But it does effect it some, which is why they are documenting it.

Another reason why I think these are pretty decent - the thorough documentation of the details.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #186 - 05/01/15 at 14:10:16
 
I sketched this out.  Do you have any pictures?

I think the wells are around 2 3/4" wide.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #187 - 05/01/15 at 15:42:40
 
Let me see if I have photos. My iPhone doesn't automatically back them up to DropBox like my Android phone does...but the camera on the iPhone is better.

I didn't take many photos. I think those drawings/PDF you got are the best option.

Edit to add: Looking at that PDF, I did some quick math. The devices are 11.8" deep, and about 25" wide. There are 7 wells (the middle one is probably a double well actually), so I'm calculating the wells are about 3.1" wide,  then subtract the material. So you're right in there.

We can clone these (roughly) - but we'd need to be able to make a template to rout the top and bottom pieces. This could be done in 1/8" material but would probably need a backing board...or do it in 1/4" material and not need a backing board.

I'm more interested in the Helmholtz for you though.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #188 - 05/01/15 at 15:55:03
 
I'll send you my sketch.  I backed in to the well width and just wanted a head on shot to confirm the well width and maybe the initial depth of the first fin segment.  

I'd do a template like Bob did for us on the el caminos on the miter saw to get the angles down then see if I could cut some 1/2" ply or mdf lengthwise at the proper angle on the table saw.

I'd glue the fins together standing up via the el camino horn tape method then glue and screw to the base/top.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #189 - 05/05/15 at 21:44:01
 
just a few more "sonic tuning devices" in your room Palamino... and there won't be room for you or your equipment!!!!  LOL   Grin
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #190 - 05/05/15 at 22:04:28
 
Or me!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #191 - 05/06/15 at 01:55:33
 
Quote:
Or me!


But it will sound GREAT!  LOL
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #192 - 05/06/15 at 15:28:22
 
I have more diffusers inbound as well - I managed to score some B-stock of the fractal diffusers Palomino got off eBay. They have some minor damage to them, and it's not a stepped set of 5 like Palo got...it's actually an all same-sized set of six. So I'll probably have to figure something out there.  (having too many of the same diffuser in an array can cause "barking" issues, where some frequencies get accentuated)

Also, I've mentioned this is CDApS private communications...but I'm seriously considering setting up a dedicated listening room in the basement, and pulling all my gear out of the home theater/living room. Not having a dedicated space is really hurting my sound - hearing Palo's and Rob's rooms is getting soul crushing with how good they have it. My L-shaped room is such an impediment. I need to try and carve out some space in a basement that's got low ceilings and is cluttered with aquariums, guitar amps, and book cases. So it's going to be a LOT of work, but I'm going to try and figure something out.

More to come.

~Eric~

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #193 - 05/08/15 at 03:26:39
 

Looks good to me!


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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #194 - 05/08/15 at 13:05:59
 
So, I understand ProggRob did not like the PI Audio Difussors (I'm thinking the second on their listing at USD 180 a pair). Any further comments?

The reason I ask, is I definitely cannot have a carpenter do this well, so it is much more practical for me to bring them down from the US, although that would not work for wooden difussors, just the synthetic, light material ones.

I know these would not be ideal, but at this point, I need to start doing something in that department soon, before the big moves settle in (DAC + beefed up Mini Torii, etc.).  Thanks!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #195 - 05/08/15 at 14:08:20
 
I think that Raven, Rob and I all agree that the PI Audio worked, but imparted a certain sound on the high end.  We all three agree that wood sounds better but the sweet spot is more mid range and lower.

As far as the styro fractal diffusers go, I do not detect that they impart a sound signature to the room.  However, I have only had them in an array across the back of my room and only in combination with 5 wood QRD diffusers elsewhere in the room.  in contrast, we moved the PI Audio diffusers all around the room.

When I listen up close to them, they seem to not reflect sound at all.  It just sounds dead.  However, Raven said he could feel the change in the sound as Rob and I walked around behind the listening chair.  My gut says they are contributing to the soundstage I am now getting, but I can't pinpoint what they are adding.  Silly me, I have just been listening a lot lately and not experimenting.

A couple of other differences are shipping costs and containers.  The PI Audio come in a box nested.  Some of Ravens got dinged in shipping.  He also charges $70 a box of 2.  The Top Acoustics came nested within the original block of styro they were cut from and cost $30 via USPS for all 5.  The exterior styro was dinged up, but the diffusers were perfect.

Finally, the PI Audio are more fragile in that they have longer fins projecting from the base which are subject to easier breakage.

These are two different designs, and I don't think I have seen any pictures of the fractals on any walls other than the front and back.  I may experiment with that this weekend.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #196 - 05/08/15 at 14:49:26
 

I think th e reason the factals sound so dead (almost like they are absorbing), is because they are basically a cylinder. So they are splaying the sound very wide.

Think of it like this - the sound reflects at the angle of incidence. So if it comes in at a slight angle (almost straight), it will reflect at a slight angle (almost straight) back at you. With a typical QRD 7, 11, or 13 those little boxes are probably sending a lot more straight back at you, while the fractals are reflecting the same amount of energy over 180 degree spread. Just throwing some almost random numbers out, but lets say a QRD on the back wall reflects 20% of it's sound almost directly at you; the fractcal probably only throws 3% back at you, because only 3% of it's "curved" face is beaming directly at you.

I reached out to the guy who made the fractals and asked if the negative (inverse) of the foam at been tested in the lab at all...because it almost looks like a finless QRD. He said he hadn't even considered it because it's basically concave...which, IMHO,  would make it really beamy. Still, it can't hurt to try.

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #197 - 05/08/15 at 14:53:17
 

Fireblade - I like the PI Audio diffusers, but they do accentuate the high end. That may, or may not be a good thing in your room.

The wood diffusers, either by design, or because they are wood (probably a bunch of design, and little of material), don't.

If you can't have someone local make wood QRD for you, then I'd feel comfortable recommending these Fractal diffusers if they can ship them out to you. Keep in mind though, they need to be used in arrays. You can't just have one or two here and there. You need like 5 in a row for them to work correctly.

Add to that, I don't feel one wall being covered with them is really enough. I firmly because you need front and back.

It's a commitment to go diffusers. If you can get some nice wood ones made, a pair on the side walls can surprise you. But if you can get a couple arrays up, plus some on the side walls...you're room will disappear!

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #198 - 05/08/15 at 19:10:19
 
LR,

I would need to bring down here a synthetic-based alternative. So my concern is the shipment bulk/weight of these things. The fewer, the better, so if the PI Audio work, these seem to be less cumbersome for shipping purposes, am I right?

If these accentuate the higher frequencies, they are in fact resonating, not difussing sound, which betrays the purpose. I think there may be ways of fixing the high frequency emphasis by trying different placements (not possible in array types but certainly feasible with the PI Audio difussors)

I know your suggested wood design (pattern and material) is a better choice but impractical for me at this time (until I meet a capable/affordable woodshop).

Thanks for the assistance.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #199 - 05/08/15 at 19:19:44
 
I did the maths and for an 18x18in QRD it would take 46ft of 1.5 x1.5 timber. Checked out my DIY store and it`ll cost around £35 - $55 per unit. I was thinking maybe 8-10 units for the room. Thats a lot of timber. I`ll check out my local timber yard first to see what his prices are like.
I just plan on using a hand saw and glue.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #200 - 05/08/15 at 19:53:50
 
I think you are talking about skyline diffusers??

I only have built two of these, but just one QRD (with fins and wells) will have more of an impact that a few of the skylines.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #201 - 05/08/15 at 22:24:24
 
Erm, yes they are skylines. They`re what the BBC came up with.
I cant imagine they still use them though as they look clunky. The BBC will have spent our licence fees on something more hitech and fashionable by now which probably does the same job but blends in better. http://www.pmerecords.com/Diffusor.cfm
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #202 - 05/08/15 at 22:29:27
 
Yes I built two if these.  For the same real estate and about 60% of the time you will get more out of a single qrd.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #203 - 05/08/15 at 22:44:47
 
I cant be sure but I think you`re talking about something like this dispersion method which looks easier to build.



from the page http://www.reddit.com/r/audioengineering/comments/j0zky/diffusers/
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #204 - 05/08/15 at 23:00:52
 
Hey Palomino, you should try to find a place for those skylines.  I know they are kinda clunky and hard to mount, but it seems a shame not to use them.  I found them to be pretty attractive pieces.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #205 - 05/08/15 at 23:08:46
 
Those are fractals syd.  Luke what raven and I bought.  Google qrd7 and you'll see what I am talking about.

Rob, I am thinking about where to hang them Smiley
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #206 - 05/22/15 at 01:19:57
 
Hey guys.  I am going to do more experiments tomorrow, but below is what I have experienced so far...  

The reason I don't prefer my GIK 242 panels (w/o scatter plates) at the first reflection point is that they alter the frequency balance.  They seem to absorb high frequencies, resulting in an over emphasis in the mid bass/bass.  The diffusion panels are much smoother in terms of frequency response.  

That said, with absorption, I seem to get a deeper sound stage.  So, @ProggRob, you might be onto something.  A mix of absorption and diffusion at the first reflection point may be best.  Fortunately, I have a couple GIK 244 panels with scatter plates on my rear wall that I can use for testing.

For reference, I was under the impression that scatter plates shouldn't be used at first reflection points, but I can no longer find that info on the GIK website.  Maybe most wouldn't recommend diffusion either...LR...you are right, trust your ears...  

So the experiment continues tomorrow and I will report back...  
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #207 - 05/22/15 at 03:43:20
 

Skyline diffusers are good enough for Skywalker Ranch - I figure they are still good enough for the BBC.  Each device is a tool for adjusting the sound in your room. There is some science, but in the end, even the installers say that after all the math and measurements, the final tweaks are by ear. So if you have room treatment, put them wherever sounds good for you.




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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #208 - 05/22/15 at 03:58:58
 

I'm still working on my mad projects while trying to take care of a convalescent dog, do house projects, and pay bills. Even though my listening room/home theater/living room is in complete disarray - I'm still working on sound treatments.

I'm painting my fractal diffusers.











I've also made a huge score. This is probably a couple thousand dollars of copper screen for RF and EMP shielding of whole rooms. If I had a dedicated room, I could literally line the walls with this and have my listening room be *inside* a Faraday Cage! Talk about lowering the noise floor!  LOL I really need to figure out what I'm going to do with this stuff.




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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #209 - 05/24/15 at 00:49:38
 
Quote:
That said, with absorption, I seem to get a deeper sound stage.  So, @ProggRob, you might be onto something.  A mix of absorption and diffusion at the first reflection point may be best.  Fortunately, I have a couple GIK 244 panels with scatter plates on my rear wall that I can use for testing.


Dave1210 - I'm really curious to hear your opinion!  I find though that with the 244 w/ scatter plate at the 1st reflection point, if your system has any tendency toward sibilance or accentuated high frequency energy it can be a bit much at the listening position.  I think it scatters from 2.5 to 10k.  I struggled with it today.  I'm not going to move them though, I have other workarounds in mind on the cabling and tube front.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #210 - 05/24/15 at 04:50:14
 

Rob, have you tried straight up absorption at first reflection points?

Damn, I meant to see if I could swing by tonight and pick up those diffusers I left at your place...I just realized it's almost 11pm.

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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #211 - 05/24/15 at 13:52:58
 
Raven, I've tried plain ol' absorption with the 244 traps I currently have mounted in the back right corner.  To me, it kills the some of the music.  I like having the additional energy in the room, even if finding the right balance is a challenge.  As you know, my speakers are slightly "laid back", so I believe over absorbing at 1st reflection is a no no.

I'm available most of the day today if you want to pick up the diffusers.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #212 - 05/25/15 at 01:16:10
 
GIK 244  w/Scatter Plate at  First Reflection
GIK 242
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #213 - 05/25/15 at 01:17:22
 
GIK 244  w/Scatter Plate at  First Reflection, should be easy to see the scatter plate in the 244 panel
GIK 242
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #214 - 05/25/15 at 01:17:25
 
Love your room!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #215 - 05/25/15 at 01:20:35
 
Thanks Rob.  I will post a few more pictures.  I think the room is part of the problem…or all of it ; )
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #216 - 05/25/15 at 01:21:47
 
Back of the room...
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #217 - 05/25/15 at 01:24:03
 
Diffusion first, reflection….
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #218 - 05/25/15 at 01:25:48
 
GIK Q7D diffusors, 242 Absorption...
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #219 - 05/25/15 at 01:41:42
 
I really like how bright it is.  Because my room is in the basement, most of my friends comment that it's like Vegas down there: where time goes to die.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #220 - 05/25/15 at 01:53:04
 
I often wish I had a dedicated room, but I also appreciate having our living space as our listening space.  There are compromises with everything...

BTW...the space is dark at night, so what happens in Vegas stays in...
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #221 - 05/25/15 at 01:56:05
 
I'm with you. I had a dedicated room, smaller than my last living room / dining room space that I moved into fromt he dedicated room. I loved the big room much more and enjoyed the big room and also the comfort of sharing it with others. Looking forward to that again in a few months!

Great sound comes in many ways!
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #222 - 05/25/15 at 02:22:08
 
At the moment I have my 244 panels with scatter plates at the first reflection points and the 242 absorption panels at the 'second' reflection points.  

My wife and I noticed a greater sensation of 'musicians in the room' with this combo.  The differences are subtle, but I want to keep this combination in place for a while before I make definitive conclusions...
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #223 - 05/25/15 at 06:32:02
 

I had friends over today - turned into an impromptu listening session.

I think I have a diffuser problem.  :)



It's kind of haphazard - but I broke out just about everything I had and we moved stuff around while listening. By the end, friend (not audiophiles) kept asking what amp was driving the center channel. They couldn't believe this was "just stereo".

Still, not the best sound I could have if I had a dedicated room to work with. I'm still driving for clearning out the basement and setting up something down there. But I have a feeling this is going to be a long and difficult journey.

Oh, and we finally decided tonight that the Zu Audio are just too brash/harsh for critical listening. Went back to my default MG944 today and everyone listening (including non-audiophiles)  pretty much breathed a sigh of relief. The 944 while not having the depth and room filling sound of my Omen bII, just are smoother and more dynamic/faster. Which is kind of funny because the 944 sound slightly etched compared to the El Camino.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #224 - 05/25/15 at 13:31:56
 
WOW Raven...that is quite the setup!  The first step is admitting you have a problem : )

Too bad about the Blue Zu's, although that is their entry level offering...I can say from experience that the ZMA and the Zu Omen Definition mk 2 make a great combo.  But those are $3800 speakers!

I thought the CKC/Omen Def combo would be great too, but the ZMA literally destroyed it.  So it's all about the synergy!

One thing I noticed with the compression tweeter on the Zu's is that it really separates tape hiss in the recording from the music.  It puts the hiss on a different plane, depth wise.  I noticed this right away, and it doesn't happen with the 944's.  I wish I could remember what tracks we were listening too...
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #225 - 05/26/15 at 15:14:17
 
I have been playing with making the room more lively.  

I took 4 - 2' absorber panels and stacked 2 each against the 4" bass traps on each side.  Gives me 8" of bass trap per side (not counting the corner bass traps up high).

I like the more lively room and the extra thickness in the bass traps seems to help with my problem bass frequency.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #226 - 05/26/15 at 15:46:49
 

There is so much we can do just by moving stuff around.

I've started posting some of my old networking and audio gear for sale on eBay and Craigs list. A first step towards clearing out the basement and possibly starting a listening room down there.

I need to figure out how to sell the rest of my CDs. Almost all the rare ones have already sold.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #227 - 05/27/15 at 01:28:42
 
I keep trying to convince myself the front of my L shaped room is symmetrical, but indeed it is not.  The wall on the left doesn't go up to the ceiling.  I probably don't have the bass issues most do because those very long waves have somewhere to escape, but I wonder what the impact is on the rest of the soundstage.
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Reply #228 - 05/27/15 at 02:24:18
 
Also, I haven't been able to recreate, no matter what combination of room treatments, the sound I heard in the Magico/Aesthetix room at Axpona.  I never thought music at an audio show could sound better than what I have in my room, but it happened, and it is now burned into my brain...
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #229 - 05/27/15 at 02:47:08
 
The only thing that works for me in my dreaded L shaped living room are the ERRx speakers. They sound awesome. I tried four other types of speakers, Janszen zA2.1, Goldenear Tritons, Monitor Audio GX300 Gold. And none worked well. I still have all except the Goldenear. Actually the room is worse than just L shaped. It opens into a foyer in the back then into the kitchen, dining and has all glass on one side.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #230 - 05/27/15 at 23:12:41
 
Thanks iLance.  That is very helpful.  

Do you think the HR-1's would provide the same benefit in a 'bad room' or are the ERRx's special in this regard?  
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #231 - 05/27/15 at 23:37:44
 
I have both HR-1s and ERRs (the model before this current one).

In a sense the ERRs are special. The HR-1s DO do quite a bit of what the ERRs do, and to an extent I think that helps them to be more flexible in a room. The HR-1s also offer a more specific instrumental shape and image than the ERRs. I love them both. ERRs are excellent with classical and jazz and folk music and have a toe up on the HR-1s in these genres in some rooms. HR-1s have a bit more of an edge on rock and electric-based music, more concentrated punch and delivery. Both are exceptional speakers.
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #232 - 05/28/15 at 00:30:48
 
Thanks Lon.  In addition to jazz, I listen to a fair amount of indie rock and electronic, so I think the HR-1's would be a better 'musical' fit.  That said, if the HR-1's don't provide the same 'take the room out of the equation' as the ERRx's,  I may not be in a much better spot vs. the 944's.  The ZMA/944 combo is quite a good one.  

iLance...are you driving the ERRx's with your ZMA?
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Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #233 - 05/28/15 at 03:32:54
 
Eventful few days here at ProggRob's joint.  I was running some frequency sweeps I downloaded long ago from Realtraps, and around the 50hz mark are heard a really loud metallic rattle coming from behind the speakers.  WHAT WAS THAT??  I wondered.  Well I walked around back of the OBs and found a washer on the mounting screws which attach the driver mounting plates to the baffle that was completely loose.  So I checked the others, all very, very loose (all 24 of them).  So I tighten everything up feeling half embarrassed and half excited that my sonic potential was heretofore completely unrealized with loose drivers in the rig.  I sit back down the listen, and the presentation tightens up all around, bass improves and micro detail takes a large step forward.  Feeling emboldened, I decide to play with my plate amps for the 10^9th time to see if this newfound bass integration will yield a way to increase the frequency output of the Augies up towards 100hz.  I changed the roll-off from 24db/octave to 12/db, bump the crossover point to 55hz and dial in the volume.  Nice.  Been listening for a couple days like this.  Really nice.  So finally having sold some gear I hit up Music Direct to see what I can blow money on and find Roomtunes Cornertunes, 4 for $160 to treat the remaining untreated corners in my room.  Anyone have experience with Michael Green's products?  Anyhow, I had other plans for equipment sale money but with this bass I'm experiencing I decided to invest in it a bit more.  The treatments arrive tomorrow, just in time for a road trip to Michigan on Saturday 😢
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Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
Power: TWL 7+ and Digital, UberBUSS, Furutech Outl
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Palomino
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Posts: 2474
Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #234 - 05/29/15 at 14:48:08
 
Rob,

I have two rattles in my room that are driving me crazy.  One is a vent that goes crazy at around 50Hz and the other I haven't found yet.  I think I will create a playlist in iTunes with just that frequency and repeat it until I find it.

Dave, the GIK looks a lot like my Menards special:



I'll have to see if they list the dimensions on their web site.

These are fairly easy to build but I have been too lazy to finish my writeup on them.  They are based off these panels you can buy at Menards.  Raven did the calcs in QRDude. Tongue



Also Rob, you got me thinking I should bring the skylines I built back into the room.  They were on the back wall until I got the styro fractal diffuser array.  I am currently trying them at the first reflection point - on the floor.



I am not sure I like how they sound. They seem to cloud up the soundstage, but it did remind me that these reflection points have an impact.  I have DIY acoustic tiles in the drop ceiling at ~the first reflection points above.
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i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
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lLance
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Posts: 164
Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #235 - 05/31/15 at 17:34:49
 
Dave1210, I am driving the ERRx with a Torii MK3 and now with ZDSD from computer server. This is wonderful combo. I don't see a reason to upgrade the Torii3 at the moment but the 6C33 monos will be intriguing. Can't stop the itch.
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ZMA, ZTpre, VPI Scout 1.1 & Soundsmith Zepher Cart, Janszen zA2.1 Speakers, PS Audio DSD, Berkeley Audio Alpha USB, PS Audio P10, Win 8 & J River app, Morrow Cables Triode Wire Labs #7 & Lessloss PC, voodoo AES
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Dave1210
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Posts: 959
Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #236 - 06/08/15 at 00:52:05
 
I am getting significantly greater wrap around sound by moving a couple room treatments into the hallway entrance during serious listening sessions.  I think the result would be even better if I had 2 diffusion panels there.  Once I get this all figured out I might go for some art panels (absorption), to clean up the look a bit.  Making the diffusion panels look better is a bit more tricky.  We are in the process of redecorating a bit and I'm currently not winning any points with the current setup.
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RT_Block_Hallway.jpg
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ProggRob
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CDApS Member

Posts: 239
Re: April fools CDApS meeting
Reply #237 - 06/08/15 at 01:02:12
 
Well I don't care what she says I think it looks terrific Smiley
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Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
Power: TWL 7+ and Digital, UberBUSS, Furutech Outl
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