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Still having issues with AC Power (Read 45645 times)
Fireblade
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Still having issues with AC Power
03/04/15 at 12:48:12
 
For some reason my mains AC source is behaving erratically, more than ever, with tangible swings confirmed by sudden lighting changes and, worst of all, sound that is not constant over and across listening sessions, to the point this last weekend I was not able to really enjoy my gear as it sounded different, weird and under par.

I don't have an explanation for this, other than some rumors I've heard from locals that the power company is making some modifications to catch up with a tremendous power demand growth in our area.

In any event, I used to be skeptical about power conditioning, limiting myself to an Isolation Transformer only since the beginning, as recommended by Steve, and never had these issues before the last several weeks.

I know I can't afford a disproportionately expensive PS Audio Power Regeneration plant for now, but there must be something in-between those and the really cheap offerings out there that may help.

If any of you have had good results with other than plant regenerators, and the amplifier never seems limited in dynamics by such a device, I would gratefuly appreciate some pointers.

I'll be moving relatively soon from my place, so I cannot make structural changes in my power circuits, otherwise I would consider a dedicated line (not sure this would help under the described circumstances, though).

Essentially, what I've been experiencing with the sound in my system does not have any other explanation that I can think of, other than AC power fluctuations and contamination.

I've never experienced humming, even today, so I tend to discard my gear, although I cannot be 100% sure the issue is not system related (but I seriously doubt it, as any changes I've made are only relegated to speakers and those, although quite sensitive, should not change for the worst after burn-in, rather the contrary). So, I'm at a loss.

Has anyone had experience with PI Audio's Uber Buss power conditioner (PFC Network plus an RFI/EMI filtering brick), which has its followers and is more affordable than any of the cutrrent PS Audio stuff (except the Dectet, which to me is a minor contribution in relative terms)?

The only doubt I have in these circumstances is whether my ultra sensitive new speakers may have opened up so much after 45+ hours of burn-in that these may be transmitting everything out, including noise that was masked earlier. I frankly doubt this, but I cannot rule out anything at this point, as this has been the only gear change in place for the last several weeks.

I tend to hate having to invest in power conditioning, as I am not convinced the tradeoff is positive, except for the power regeneration concept, but I may have been wrong all along.

I know this topic has been addressed enough already in this forum, but I still don't see a way out unless I break the bank and go for a PS Audio P3 or something like that. The Uberbuss and its sibling, the Magikbuss, from PI Audio are the only ones that have called my attention over the last three years and I don't trust any other power conditioner due to the restrictions these tend to impose on current draw demands.

This is more of an issue than the voltage fluctuations at peak times that I was complaining about in an earlier message. This is now unbearable even at non peak demand hours.

Maybe the solution is to power condition just the DAC and not the amp?

Any help would be appreciated. I really hate how erratic my sound quality has become lately. Sad
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mark58
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #1 - 03/04/15 at 13:22:06
 
Fireblade, I don't know a great deal about this topic but it sounds like you want/need Regeneration not Power Conditioning.  If you do decide on conditioning, there are at least two of us here that use Running Springs Audio products.  They have a wide range of offerings...one of which might fit your budget.  As usual, used will save money.  A PS Audio P5 with a 1 meter AC-12 Power cord recently sold here for $1650...retail value was $4300.

I bought a Haley new, shipped direct from the manufacturer for a good discount...$1500 shipped.  If you're interested I could dig and find the details and seller info.  I also bought a Jaco used/demo for $1433 shipped. Mark.

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1424579275

http://power.apitech.com/audio-power-conditioners-and-cords.aspx
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will
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #2 - 03/04/15 at 14:06:48
 
FB.

I guess you have looked over the threads below? As with many threads here, more than the direct topic titles are covered getting into lots of thoughts on power.

I used an Uber for a few years and liked it a lot. If you search my name and Uber or Uberbuss I guess you will find my impressions. Finally though, my trouble was excessively high voltage and swings that moved me to regeneration, not what you want to do. Nor did I, but I ended up with a really deep discount so felt better. I ended up needing a Shunyata Defender and a really revealing power cable I made, along with the right feet for the P5 to get it transparent enough for me, but then things got very good....

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1400749087/0

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1394562824
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Fireblade
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #3 - 03/04/15 at 17:37:08
 
Thanks for your thoughts, guys. I'm really concerned. You cannot conclude much from all the posts in those power-related threads (I confess I have not read all the details in those links, but skimmed over them), other than what we already suspect: Either you try and decide for yourself or go for the sure thing and get a PS Audio Regenerator or equivalent solution. I'm afraid both options are off in my case due to the logistics involved. Same thing with the power cords.

At this point I'm not even sure what is really going on in my case:

- Is it newly added noise in the AC that was not there before, affecting the quality of the sound?

- Or is it voltage and frequency fluctuations?

I may have to buy an Ohm-meter or something and test the AC lines.

I agree with the general concept of Power Regeneration ... If it was more affordable it would be a no-brainer (of course, assuming it does not constrains the amp's current draw demands).

Whether Running Springs or UberBoss and the like, I think the concept is right, but is not necessarily what I may need. Whereas the regeneration units are more of a sure thing as I assume these cover both noise and power inconsistency issues? Correct?

Thanks again for your patient support. I'll read the threads more carefully later on, when I have the time, but I cannot wait to solve this issue as soon as possible.
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Syd
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #4 - 03/04/15 at 18:34:52
 
Blade the `rumors` of the power company doing stuff could account for it. You shouldn`t have had drastic changes overnight so to say. They may have had to bypass the usual source and use a back up whatever that entails while they carry out their work. You may be getting power that just suffices for domestic use.
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Fireblade
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #5 - 03/04/15 at 19:47:23
 
I agree with that notion, as it makes sense. What kind of remedy does this would entail, though, power conditioning or regeneration?

The funny thing is, when the AC Power source is not having issues, my system really shines nowadays. It's just not that often anymore, as these 'disturbances' occur now even outside the so-called peak demand hours, like saturday morning and sunday afternoons ..  Go figure!

Thanks!
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will
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #6 - 03/04/15 at 20:23:47
 
I think maybe in the wireworld thread I recall palomino talking about a used, old school PSaudio, maybe 4Krow too. It is low wattage, but may be plenty for your setting, and they come up now and then pretty inexpensively...The regenerators do do both voltage and filtering.

I resisted for along time. And I really had a time getting my P5 to sound how I liked. But after getting there, it is really good, and it is done now...no more noise or voltage movement. I got  a demo with warranty from Music Direct for way less than retail and returnable, though i know this is hard for you.

It has some nice adjustments and user friendliness (touchscreen and remote). The voltage is user adjustable and with my amp this makes a real sound difference...one volt can be heard here, so another nice tuning tool. Also there is a "Low Distortion" or "High Regulation" choice, and they sound different...I prefer the more textured sound of low distortion, but the high regulation's tighter sound could be a preference for others...another tuning tool. Also a phase adjustment they recommend leaving alone, though it is supposed to be quite useful in some bad power situations. And then there is adjustable Multiwave (pumped up, fast power delivery using caps) or Sinewave. I like sine as to me the multi pushes the tubes into an odd density sound, but some like the multi, so another choice.

On the P3 the high-power plug is only filtered, no regen on that though it is on the other outlets, so only good for high power if you have stable and not excess voltage. I don't remember what constitutes high power, but this is why I got a P5, I knew it would cover me no matter what I put in it and all outlets are regen, the reason I went with it rather than my Uber conditioner.

I have read some say that class A amps do not need the fast, low resistance delivery PS Audio talks a lot about...Mine does not show any power delivery fluctuation on the output wattage reading, but it may not be fast enough to read these mini surges...I have no idea about this myself, but if considering a P3, this may be worth looking at since the high power output is not regenerated. Maybe your amp would work fine on the other outlets????? An email to PSaudio might clear this question right up.

So there are more reasonable options with the regens, used and demos, depending on needs.

A simple, inexpensive Volt meter would empower your process. I read mine when I heard what I thought was increased voltage and it proved it for me, while also showing me just how changeable it was here. Sometimes it was good for a good part of the day, and not the rest. And others, there would be 3-4 volt shifts over hours, and as it turned out it was high most of the time.

Good luck!
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beowulf
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #7 - 03/04/15 at 22:00:37
 
Do you have an AC Voltage Meter that you can plug into a socket that you kit is plugged into to get a read out average over a couple of days?

I have a Monster Power Center HTS3600 and it's probably not the choice of many out there it does have an AC Meter readout.  In my prior place the voltage readout fluctuated from 114 to 125 at times and I knew the wiring was pretty old as the home as too.  But my new place the current is much more stable and I have actually never seen it waver from 117 (even with the A/C, dishwasher and wash machine going) so it is much more stable at my new place and the music sounds much better even during the daytime than it did at my old house.  This leads me to believe that I would want to try passive conditioning rather than needing regeneration as my power seems pretty stable.

A stand alone meter is fairly cheap and comes in handy and would give you an idea of how to treat your power (whether you need only passive conditioning or regeneration).


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Fireblade
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #8 - 03/05/15 at 12:39:17
 
Many thanks for your thoughts, Will and beowulf ...

Will:

The regenerators do both voltage and filtering.

Great to learn … This Could solve all potential probs.

"On the P3 the high-power plug is only filtered, no regen on that though it is on the other outlets … Maybe your amp would work fine on the other outlets? An email to PS Audio might clear this question right up."

Agreed, but I sincerely doubt PS Audio tech support would understand the differences between PP and SEP power demand needs or tube amp current requirements in general … But it is worth asking them, of course.

Their website says this about the P3: “… the P3 can handle any size system you want to power.”

Of course, it may mean larger amps would need to be plugged on the filtered-only plug.

"A simple, inexpensive Volt meter would empower your process."

Absolutely. Will order one asap. In fact, beowulf’s detailed description of the one in Amazon looks perfect (thanks beowulf!)
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will
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #9 - 03/05/15 at 16:22:09
 
From Fireblade: "Their website says this about the P3: “… the P3 can handle any size system you want to power.”"


I think if you read the whole thing carefully you will find the statement is accurate, but the high power outlet is not regenerated/voltage regulated.

"Agreed, but I sincerely doubt PS Audio tech support would understand the differences between PP and SEP power demand needs or tube amp current requirements in general … But it is worth asking them, of course."

I guess Push Pull and Single Ended are what you are talking about? When I had questions the customer support person had difficulty with, I got a call back from Paul, the main man. Call or email, he knows lot about their stuff.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #10 - 03/05/15 at 17:00:30
 
There is no need to worry about having to use the high powered outlet on the P3.  That outlet is there for things like 300 watt Class A designs.  I've got a P3 with multiple things plugged into it the standard receptacles and I'm not coming close to using up anywhere near its max power output.
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Fireblade
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #11 - 03/05/15 at 20:25:23
 
Will, that is exactly what I meant by: " ... it may mean larger amps would need to be plugged on the filtered-only plug."  - which is evidently non-regeneration.

Seikosha's feedback is important for me: I know my Mini is small and should not take up much power on peak passages, so it is reassuring to know I could use the regenerated power plugs for my Mini instead of the filtered only high-current one, as the latter would do me little good the way my mains are behaving lately.

Now, it's a matter of waiting for a good used deal (P3 or alike).

Thanks again to all for your orientation.
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Fireblade
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #12 - 03/05/15 at 20:58:17
 
BTW, Will and others with similar experiences:

Now that you have had experience with power regeneration and the also popular UberBoss (or anybody else's good power conditioner or passive approach), how would you summarize the sound differences? Given my current power issues, passive probably won't help much, but I'm still interested in your opinions.

Thanks
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Archie
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #13 - 03/05/15 at 21:07:25
 
I watched 2 different P3s on ebay with less than 1 year on them go for about $1300 each a couple weeks ago.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #14 - 03/06/15 at 13:02:05
 

If you're considering a PS Audio power regenerator, look up Wally at Underwood HiFi. He sells "Open Box" (which really aren't - it's just his way of selling below MSR) for something like 30%-40% off I think.

I certainly didn't pay full price for my P10

Underwoodwally@aol.com  

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Fireblade
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #15 - 03/06/15 at 16:46:50
 
Thanks both Archie and LR for the tips. I'll be on the lookout for more bargains at eBay et Al, and will check Wally's end prices.

I'm convinced now, as I was some time ago about increasing my speakers' sensitivity and impedance, that I need to do something important in the AC power department. I just wonder if my Mini Tori's resolution can really take advantage of the sound improvement potential a good power device can bring to the chain. My gut feeling is, it does ...

Thanks again!
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will
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #16 - 03/08/15 at 00:56:43
 
Quote:
BTW, Will and others with similar experiences:

Now that you have had experience with power regeneration and the also popular UberBoss


Fireblade,

Since you read my MKIV review, I guess you have a sense of my sense of the complexity and delicacy of the sound here. Also, I talked about how anything could impact the subtle qualities be it power, cables, front end, room, etc.

Though both had loads of burnin by the end my saga in the wireworld thread, I just did some listening tests, knowing things could be different now with more burnin on the MKIV and P5.

And things are better, but I can safely say I would not have the level of sound I wrote about in the MKIV review with just the P5.

It does really good things, but it just doesn't allow the level of complex detail I spoke of without help, at least with my front end/system/room.

As you know, I think very fine detail is subtle, but really important. And it is delicate...hard to get in balance and to keep. There seem to be layers, many little parts making a unified complex. It can be read in enhanced ambient information, inner detail and spaciousness, more complex edges, defined core notes transition to ambience more seamlessly, subtler and more natural timbre, soundstage expansion with natural feeling ambience connecting players....

In retrospect, where I started with power treatment was important. It was a transparent, unrestricted Audio Brickwall along with an adjustable Kemp Schumann Resonator, and some Alan Maher things, an EMF/RFI filter plug, and several Infinity boxes. The boxes are interesting. Put on cable ends they create a small but audible improvement in dynamics and clarity across the spectrum. I had a skilled electronics guy with a lot of audio noise management experience describe it once...this was a long time ago, but I think it was something like the quartz in the box acting as a transducer, drawing off noise and turning it to heat???

The Kemp Schumann resonator, I heard also. They are are said to clarify noise in lines as well broadcasting the Schumann Resonance (7.83 Hz) into the room. Maybe that really long wave in the house wires overwhelms and mitigates the higher frequency noise??? I don't know, but set just right, it helps clarify the sound across the spectrum, sounding similar to the rest of good noise reducers. It seems to subtly enhance complexity and timbre while clarifying and expanding the soundstage. Set too high, the sound gets too feathery and diffuse, but just right, it is a last few percent sort of gain that is pretty involving here.

The EMF/RFI filter circuit cleans it all pretty evenly though a little bright feeling, leaving the good stuff with less noise artifacts. This setup was very revealing and clear...lucky synergy I think.

Next I added the Uberbuss. After burnin I found it very transparent and musical, more refined. Having come from a really good place, I realized I had entered the more subtle range of power conditioning. More musical with more complex sound, it was worth it to me though, taking the system deeper into refined beauty. But also this showed me how good my first setup was.

Below is a summary of now. I am using all of my old setup except the Uber, adding the P5, a new cable for it, and a Shunyata Defender. A lot of stuff, but it is really, really good.

The P5 took a lot of effort after the Uber's natural sounding transparency. I don't think it would have occurred to me to try the P5 except I needed power conditioning for my work place system. Then I discovered the variations in density from increased voltage was a long term problem for me, making regeneration necessary. As good as the Uber was, it did not cut quite as much hum-like noise, and could not regulate voltage.

On the other hand, I almost sent the P5 back several times. Lacking some layers of micro detail it was a little hard edged, with an “analog” sound I found darkish and veiled. It was very difficult to get the level of open, nuanced detail I was used to. Luckily, I was given a couple demo extensions to finish exploring and to finish the loooonnngg burnin.

In the end I could not put my Tranquility DAC, its linear USB power, and tweaked Mac Mini, into the P5 without sacrifice. After trying different approaches, these are plugged into my Brickwall modded with a gold plated Furutech plug, and a cryo’d Pass and Seymour receptacle. The Brickwall has quiet surge protection so a Shunyata Defender is used only as a filter. In the Brickwall it refines solidity, definition, and opens a subtle, but sort of vast complexity for the front end. If I plug the Brickwall into the P5, I lose some of this with no benefits I can hear.

I also lucked out on a home-made cable for the P5. It is 8 gauge using many 18, 16, and 14 silver plated copper teflon wires with Neotech rhodium ends on sale at partsconnexion. I think this is described in the Wireworld thread. The PS Audio AC-12 I have brought out a lot of what I wanted, but my cable was better for what I was after with more nuance and delicacy, more layers of complex detail. After trying everything I had, I found Synergistic Research MIG feet under the P5 were the only ones that could get close to the level of open complexity I wanted. The gear other than the front end goes into the P5, and the P5 and Brickwall share a great sounding Furutech copper wall receptacle.

I rearranged the EMF/RFI filters in the system, room and house lines as part of the P5 process for best sound. Also a couple black discusses from Mad Scientist. Though these are not as neutral as the Maher Infinities, (I have never put my finger on why) I like using several of them for the clarity they bring. All the little stuff is cumulative, and like about everything these days for me, they need tuning, locating them best for synergy.

With the P5 and Defender/Brickwall, the rest have less powerful impact than they did in my original setup, but still very important to me. The P5 is a good tool for me since my voltage is nutty and my amp's sounds change with a volt here or there. The Shunyata Defender and Brickwall make the whole way better bringing out more complex musical layers. The rest, the many plugs and filters...at this point, these are more the last few percent. But in my experience, the super refined detail layers are the most fragile and difficult to pull, but are very valuable for a complete musical experience. So these last few percent are as valuable as anything else. For me, this is perhaps the most important area. It makes the rest more real and natural.

Once I got there with this hybrid system, I really think it is great, though it is a little wild to realize how involved it is. Organically developed over time as it may be, that the P5 needed all this and the Shunyata to get this good was discouraging for me. This shows how important where I began was though, with very clean power from the Brickwall and all the rest  creating a benchmark that was hard to match. Then adding the Uber, that was a step up, challenging the abilities of the P5 further.

I wish there were more regenerator makers around. I could not find a demo of the Purepower regenerator and was unwilling to go there without hearing it, leaving me with the one choice. Purepower had a lot of trouble when they shopped out building the units, but they are supposed to have fixed all that, moving the builds back to Canada.

I wonder how it compares to PS Audio....

All complaining aside though, my power is really amazing with this setup, another level altogether than before, and the P5 is a big player!
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Archie
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #17 - 03/08/15 at 01:12:47
 
Will, this may sound like a joke but it's not.  At your level of refinement you should be monitoring your room temperature and humidity, barometric pressure and probably what you are wearing when listening.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #18 - 03/08/15 at 01:38:10
 
Archie, Here's what it would look like!
Smiley Huh Wink Roll Eyes Embarrassed Cool

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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #19 - 03/08/15 at 15:31:07
 
Will,

Thanks so much for the thorough description/explanation of the evolved system you enjoy today. I can only say it is amazing how you have seemingly explored every angle in this process and the extraordinary level of hearing sensitivity you must have developed through years of disciplined sound tweaking.

If you needed to start over on a really limited budget, what would be the sole most contributing power device component from your arsenal that you would pick up first, now that you have been over this incredible journey?

I know it is not an easy to answer question, since you have many variables involved in your present configuration and the history of interactions among them is hard to use for an absolute cause-and-effect relationship among them and the final sound judgement. Yet, in the scenario I described, there must be a top of mind power component you would want to get first and foremost.

Assuming you used your system at non peak demand hours, what would be that single best power treating device in absolute terms, sinergies notwithstanding?

In my chronically limited budget condition, I strive for that major contributor and think about the rest as future incremental improvement tweaks. What would that single, first to get power device be, even though the level of sound would not even come close to the combination you have settled on today?

Thanks again for a most enlightening exposition.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #20 - 03/08/15 at 16:19:09
 
Fireblade. I will think about this further, but I have a busy day....of the cuff it seems regeneration (maybe a used P3? or that older/smaller PS Audio unit Palomino and 4K talked about) may well be your best first step....with voltage, filtering, and maybe even the phase thing is contributing to the weirdness you are experiencing...When I asked about phase, the answers seemed vague to me, but I recall one guy it really helped when I was doing research.

Seems the first step would be to get that volt meter though...and see how much of an issue that is...Or not!

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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #21 - 03/08/15 at 17:31:30
 
Fair enough, Will. I'm looking forward to your more elaborated thought process at a later time.

I know you liked the UberBoss but ended up keeping the P5 instead. Since the cost difference is significant between these two alternatives, I had some hopes. Listening at non peak demand hours may differ the need for regeneration, but you're right, I need to measure the voltage flluctuations to establish a reference for the decision.

In the meantime, I'm already searching for those used regeneration alternatives.  Thanks again!
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #22 - 03/09/15 at 12:33:05
 
I looked at the PPP display last night.  127 volts and 9.1 thd.  PPP took it to 120 volts and .4 thd.  That's some regeneration.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #23 - 03/09/15 at 12:39:12
 
No wonder people seem to prefer regeneration. I've always agreed with the concept, is just a budget issue for me. I'll be on the lookout for a used/bargain deal. Thanks!

LR wrote:

"If you're considering a PS Audio power regenerator, look up Wally at Underwood HiFi. He sells "Open Box" (which really aren't - it's just his way of selling below MSR) for something like 30%-40% off I think."

You are absolutely right about those prices, indeed. Unfortunately, no P3 on sight, just the P5 and P10, which are too much in my case. I'll keep checking that site out for new offerings. Thanks!
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #24 - 03/09/15 at 18:04:18
 
Here the voltage is erratic, sometimes sort of stable at 124, or 123, or even 120 at times. But inexplicably it would move around also....nothing distinctly identifiable with peak or off peak. I understand the desire for conditioning rather than regeneration, I just couldn't get the voltage monkey off my back. I also agree the regeneration expense can be pretty unnerving, but for me, power is very good now for the foreseeable future and I am really glad I got here, struggles and expense or not. My costs were spread out also. Finally though, something about really good sounding stable power gives an incredibly secure feeling...a big variable eliminated.

If after some testing, you decide on regeneration, the P300 with tubewave and balanced power seems to sound good, and is likely relatively inexpensive if they come up. But I wonder how much power they can sustain? My P5 meter says 225 watts with the Torii MKIV, CSP3, Oppo BDP83, 44 inch led Samsung monitor/TV, and a DSPeaker Anti 2 DAC. Then the Mini and incidentals outside of that. The newest Mac Mini spec is max 85 watts, and with a Usb power supply and another little thing or two, maybe +120...about 345 watts here with no room to spare.

A consideration anyway.

Can you describe the objectionable parts of your sound with the tripplite?
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #25 - 03/09/15 at 19:09:15
 
The PS Audio P3 is up to 750 Watts, so that would do it. The P300 I'm not familiar with (I think it is one of the first PS Audio models offered?). In my case I think I can be fine with less than 300 Watts as my gear is lower consuming than yours (except maybe the DAC). My Tripp Lite IS 500 is 500 Watts and has never given me the slightest sign of saturation.

I don't think I have a problem with my IS Tx, is just the lousy AC power supply that is getting worst lately. The things I've experienced are twofold:

1. SPL that sometimes goes significantly down and sometimes it shouts to you (significantly high), without touching the volume pot!

2. The quality of the sound lately is under par compared to what I was getting until a few weeks ago ... Lifeless, lack of detail, edgy sound on the highs, little bass impact etc.

In fact, it is so bad, this weekend I barely listened to my gear for fear of getting into another frustrated session. The funny thing is, before that I was so happy with the new quality of the sound coming from my new Tekton Lore's.

These disturbances are not uncommon these days in my area, as I commented earlier, given the rapid growth around. But it had never been this bad before. I can tell by the lights dimming from time to time, except the lights would not tell me when the voltage is too high as brighter light is not something yo notice unless is really excessive. So I correlate this behavior and my sound with voltage fluctuations beyond what I had been experiencing before.

Need to measure the mains voltage by sampling over different times to confirm this yet.

Thanks!
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #26 - 03/09/15 at 19:26:48
 
I have both a P300 and a Power Plant Premier.  I recently switched from the P300 to the PPP in my main system because the Torii + mac mini + DAC and LPSU had the P300 running hot (even with the fan on).  With Rachael and one less power supply I did not have this issue.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #27 - 03/09/15 at 19:29:42
 
FB,

Man, that sounds horrible. I was referring to the P300 because of your concerns over cost, that others have found it to sound quite good, and that it would likely cover your current needs. But elsewhere you spoke of upgrading your amp one day....this is why I illustrated my usage.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #28 - 03/09/15 at 20:42:58
 
Correct, Will. With the P3 I think I would be covered even with a larger amp. Not so sure with the P300, although right now I would grab any of those if the price is right.

Palomino,

I only have the Mini Torii (which may be slightly more consuming than the Rachael, or not, but close, and my DAC. The Laptop runs mostly on its own battery power (lasts for several hours of continuous use), so I really have to find out about my DAC's power consumption. It is an Audio Gd, and typically is hot on power as Kingwa (designer) believes many internal dedicated power supplies improves the sound.

I don't think I need anything close to 300 Watts as it is, unless the 70 watts nominal Mini Torii consumption raises during short peaks for a significant amount (although tube amps usually consume more or less the same power whether these are on use or not, as I understand).
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #29 - 03/09/15 at 21:12:55
 
I run a Mini Torii (or an SE84) an Oppo CD player and a Bifrost DAC off of my P3 and consumption is at a steady amount...the total is something like 102 watts or so (2 or 3 less with the SE84 in place).  Being a Class A design, the MT draws a constant amount with no peaks or lulls.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #30 - 03/10/15 at 00:15:16
 
Thanks for the tip, seikosha. I figure I may have a similar ball park consumption, so even the P300 would do. Thanks also for confirming the Mini Torii has a pretty constant consumption regardless of the dynamic demands on it.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #31 - 03/10/15 at 00:28:08
 
I copied this from another forum where a question was asked to Caelin Gabriel (of Shunyata Research):

Shunyata Research A/C regenerator?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

anonymous

I am using a PS Audio Power Plant Premier (PPP) A/C regenerator for some components, because my incoming power is of poor quality for noise and voltage variation. My PPP measures an incoming noise on the line of ~8% vs. a more typical <3.5% and have checked the results with another PPP to ensure consistent measurements. Voltages also vary +3/-4V or so and I've checked that with my NIST calibrated Fluke multimeter, noting my preamp power supply doesn't work very well below ~117V. I would use an A/C regenerator on my power amp, but haven't found one up to the task. The poor incoming power quality may be a rarity for most, but is there anything in the works for a Shunyata Research A/C regenerator? Any other recommendations?


Caelin's Response was this:
anonymous: What country do you live in?

I think your PPP is measuring "harmonic distortion" which is different than "noise". A reading of 8% THD is higher than what is normal. What usually causes this is a flat topped AC waveform. This means that the current load on the line exceeds the capacity of the line to deliver the current demanded by your attached equipment. Since the line cannot deliver the current the voltage drops at the crest of the waveform. This can be caused by in-wall wiring that is too small in gauge or more likely is caused by the power company transformer feeding your home to be too small for the load. The PPP is inadequate to make a proper assessment of what is needed to correct your power quality issues. I would suggest that you get a professional to connect a power analyzer to your circuit and to use a current probe on the AC circuit and at the electrical panel to find the true cause of your issue. You may simply need to upgrade the in-wall wiring or you may need to contact the power company to increase the service rating to your home.

The voltage variation of +3/-4V is not unusual and it not a problem unless the voltage exceeds (assuming you are in the US) 130VAC or is below ~110VAC. Typical reading are between 112-127VAC.

If you can document that the voltage level to the home is below standards they may be required to upgrade the transformer. Do a little research with local regulations.

Some people have gone the extra mile and paid to have the transformer upgraded.

The PPP may help your source equipment but it will not help the amplifiers. Amplifiers need current. Your problem is a lack of current capacity. The harmonic distortion and resultant voltage drop are just the symptoms. The PPP actually consumes power (current) to provide a regulated voltage. So you have a net loss of current capacity.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


My thought is that perhaps (before spending a lot of money on a Power Regenerator) you can check to see if the actual transformer is of adequate load for your home.

Edit: If the transformer is not adequate you could request the power company to upgrade it ... if that's possible in your area then you may only need something simple such as a PS Audio Dectet or Shunyata PS8/Defender combo for high quality distributor with filtering compared to spending a bunch of dough on a Regenerator when that might not be your biggest problem.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #32 - 03/10/15 at 01:13:17
 
I was thinking along the same lines but more the Tripplite. The extreme ups and downs in volume and all the bad edges and detail....seems it would handle these better even if the grid was sort of haywire??? Don't know as I have never used one, but it seems suspicious. I wonder....if you had a quality surge suppressor (for protection) like for a computer or Video rig, what if you ran your system through that to see if the Tripplite is not the offender, or at least part of it?

As to Gaelin's 3-4 volt swings being "not a problem" and 112-127 volts.#$%^&*()  With my amps variations like this would be a sound nightmare. At least to me!
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #33 - 03/10/15 at 01:53:58
 
Yes, if the transformer is inadequate any power regenerator type unit is also going to use up current that would/should be reserved for the amplifier.  I can't see that as making any sense to put a regerator in there without knowing first hand the state of the transformer as regenerators are costly and could hamper performance even more.

I had flucuations in my old apartment where it ran from 114 to 125 sometimes in very short periods of time, it was pretty bad and I could tell the difference when I moved to my new home which is very stable.  But I knew it was only a temporary place to live so I didn't really put any effort into experimentation while I was there.

I don't know which way I would roll the dice ... to me if your power and transformer is pretty decent I can't see the use of regeneration (for amplifiers no, but for sources yes) and would be more apt to trying something with non-current limiting tech such as a Shunyata Hydra or MPC-12 over anything but perhaps a PS Audio P10 as I hear it has quite the reserve on tap for those dynamic transients.

But then again that aint saying much as I never tried either Grin
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #34 - 03/10/15 at 14:01:28
 
Hi guys, it seems we're back to square one! Geez ...

As I said, I'll be moving in a few months so I cannot do anything drastic to the house's infrastructure. In this country, you cannot argue or claim anything to the local power company, they are essentially hands free to do as they please, and they really stink.

Regarding the Tripp Lite, I sincerely doubt it has anything to do with this, as it has performed flawlessly since I got it. If it had anything wrong, I assume it would show this up in some other ways too, like humming or overheating and the like. No such things so far. As far as trying taking it out of the system, I fear problems may get even worse without its protection, things being as they are. I'm calling an electrician this week-end and see what he has to say, though.

As a side note, my neighborhood is fed through subterranean cabling, with transformers placed on top of the sidewalk  every so many meters. It is supposed to be something better than the local traditional (aerial) distribution sub-system and the oldest sector is  less than 7 years old. I personally think there's a supply and demand unbalance due to the unplanned faster growth in the area, with new residential constructions every day since I bought the house, about 5 years ago.

I'm concerned about the regeneration power limitations. Theoretically, since my IS Tx is just 500 watts and it has never been a bottleneck with basically the same system I have today, I don't think there would be a power limitation in my case using at least that amount of power rating in a regenerator, say a P3 (750 watts), but who knows what would happen with the lower ceiling offered by the PPP and/or P300.

Man, this thing is driving me nuts. I hope the electrician is smart enough to figure this out, as this is another unforeseeable variable. People here are not familiar with sensitive equipment and the like. I lost a fridge compressor before its time, about a year and a half ago,  due to power surges as I was told when I had to replace it. At the time, and until relatively recently, my gear sounded normal to me. IMHO this is something that is linked to the power utility more than anything local and it may not be corrected even by regeneration, I'm afraid now.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #35 - 03/10/15 at 14:14:25
 
Just to address power concerns with the PS Audio items. . . .

I had a P300 in operation for years, one of the very first sold, and it ran a Zen Select and a CD transport and DAC (Cambridge Audio) and on occasion an EICO HF81 and this never exhibited strain or restriction.

I had a Power Plant Premier and had a Torii Mk III, a PS Audio PWD Mk 2, and PWT, two Decware CSP2+ preamps, a ZP3, a DVR a Denon DCD-A100 and BDP-A100, a Rega RP3 and TTPSU, and a TV all connected to it. No strain, no restriction. I now have a P5 connected to a very similar system and it's barely breathing let alone breathing hard.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #36 - 03/10/15 at 18:21:40
 
Quote:
Regarding the Tripp Lite, I sincerely doubt it has anything to do with this, as it has performed flawlessly since I got it. If it had anything wrong, I assume it would show this up in some other ways too, like humming or overheating and the like. No such things so far. As far as trying taking it out of the system, I fear problems may get even worse without its protection, things being as they are. I'm calling an electrician this week-end and see what he has to say, though.


I don't doubt the grid issues, but if it is surging a lot, like your refrigerator compressor, electronic things that ran well once can break. A transformer/filter/surge suppressor has many parts, and one or more could potentially stop working well, especially under stress from fluctuations. That you are having extreme volume shifts, and bad sound may indicate it is not well. Without testing it, you can't know.

I suggested trying the system through a quality surge protector in order to identify if the Tripplite is associated or not....not as an ultimate fix. Protection is the reason I suggested a good surge protector. My pretty inexpensive panamax surge protector/filter I use for my computer is guaranteed for way more (seems like it was $24K) than my amps and DACs. Not that I would want to risk anything, but I seriously doubt they would have this warranty if there was real risk of the things not protecting gear. You are a good researcher though...have to check it out yourself. As bad as it sounds, you may be able to tell in minutes. If a surge protector sounds better, your tripplite is likely sick.

Also, a Shunyata P8 is not surge protected unless you use a Defender. Then if the Defender blows, it will protect your gear, but it is dead...have to get a new one. And the Hydra series is not inexpensive, I think about 4 K to get into one with surge suppression. Edit: they do have a VENOM MPC-12 for 2.5K with cord. Though my power is not as bad as yours lately, and I have never had anything blow, protectors or gear, still, this is why I have my Shunyata Defender in an already protected device. I use it as a filter, not a surge protector.

After reading Beowulfs quote from Caelin, I lost some of my faith in him. His blanket statements, that voltage at many levels, and with big swings is OK, is absolutely wrong in my listening experience with my amps. Maybe a class A tube amp is different, and there is context to Caelin's comment we did not get, but...When I compared a Shunyata P8 (with a Defender) to the P5, I remember it this way....at first I thought the P8 was faster. And then when I had to send one or the other back, the P5 was not fully burned in, but I took the leap thinking it would continue to improve in ways it already had, speed included. Now I don't get any sense my amps are slow with it. In fact the Torii seems fast!

Both companies talk about how non-limiting their stuff is. Generally, the PSAudio rag sounds pretty logical to me. Excerpts from the P5 writeup:

"...better respected high-end power conditioners do provide a significantly better sound and performance level for many systems, they are unable to address the fundamental problems found on the AC line.....they cannot ensure your listening and viewing experience will always be the same....relying on passive means to help the AC power, one relinquishes the security and reliability of a system running from a PS personal generator.

...AC power that is available in our homes is not perfect and is getting worse with time. Problems include fluctuating levels, noise, distortion, harmonics, unreliable performance during certain hours of the day and dynamic losses.

....The quality of that AC power has a direct effect on the audio and image quality in a high-end system and without steady, perfected power, one cannot depend on the same level of performance day in and day out.

Legacy technology passive power conditioners address none of the real problems with power in our homes.

Power Plants are not power conditioners.

Power Plants are personal AC generators that provide hard working, perfected results from the AC power line. Power regeneration uses active components, like those found in large and powerful audio amplifiers, to rebuild the AC power and produce clean, clear, distortion free, regulated AC to the equipment.

Power Plants also provide excellent protection and cleaning of radio, cell phone and computer interference, but more importantly, regeneration provides a steady, regulated, low impedance source of pure AC, unaffected by the equipment’s demands for power.

The key to the Power Plant’s success and what makes it so unique in the industry is the way it makes the power better.

Instead of simple filtering, as a legacy power conditioner does, the Power Plant actually repairs the main power issues actually caused by the equipment itself: dynamic fluctuations.

Dynamic fluctuations occur with nearly every power amplifier or receiver on the market today. When a loud musical passage is reproduced, the power amplifier draws more power from the wall to feed the loudspeakers. When this occurs, the voltage at the wall decreases in direct relationship with the loudness of the musical passage. Louder is worse.

Traditional power conditioners only worsen this already bad situation.

If, on the other hand, the system is powered from a Power Plant AC regenerator, the problem is eliminated 100%. Dynamic voltage fluctuations are stopped completely, the power amp receiving perfectly regulated, steady AC power regardless of the demands from the power amplifier."


There is more, but you get the gist....different viewpoints from those who believe their product is better.

I heard Beowulf's concern though....if the shakeup in the power grid causes deep lulls and spikes, are there limitations with the power plant's ability to absorb the fluctuations? Their sales rag does not indicate any limitations...a good question though!

And of course it is also possible that your outside transformer failed in some way over the last several weeks...maybe the electrician can get some readings for you that will clarify any of this sort of concern.

Considering these conditions, even if they go away after the grid gets updated....considering the power company is like the royals...free to do as they like, assuming a power plant can absorb this sort of swings, it would seem the most logical longterm solution.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #37 - 03/11/15 at 00:25:36
 
Good post Will, we're talking about 2 different companies with 2 compleltely different philosophys about what sounds best for home audio.  I'm sure if Shunyata wanted they could engineer a Power Regenerator as part of their lineup, but instead have chosen a different route as they don't think it sounds as good.  

When I spoke to a PS Audio consultant a year or so ago and gave them the list of what components I wanted to hook up to it they swayed me towards the P10 and said the P3 would not give me good results and boderline reluctant to recommend the P5 as I had a 65" LED HDTV, subwoofers, etc. ... basically all the outlets would be used in my situation. So I didn't feel confident in getting the P5 and didn't have the money for a P10 (the P5 would have needed to be purchased used as well anyways).

I read both of McGowans and Gabriels comments against each other's products which are posted below and the very reasons McGowan gave for regeneration are the exact reasons for Gabriel's stance against it. Grin

Here's what McGowan said about Shunyata's PS8 Defender:

Quote:
McGowan said,
The Shunyata is a good sounding device but it really doesn't address the problems that are inherent in power - dynamic and long term voltage regulation, high impedance and clipped peaks that prevent your Meridian, Sooloos, Oppo and TV from giving you all they have to offer.

A P10 fixes those problems and what I would imagine you'll hear is a reasonably dramatic improvement in soundstage width and depth coupled with an openness you didn't have before.


Here's what Gabriel said about PS Audio's "P" series of regenerators:

Quote:
Gabriel said,
Good questions and to the point. You didn't shy from asking a tough question and I respect that so you will get a straight answer. When I talk about regenerators I talk about them in general and not specific to a single manufacturer. Also I will use US voltages when discussing this for simplicity.

Regenerators have some appealing advantages. The most important would be its ability to regulate voltage. This is a legitimate and valuable feature if you live in a third-world country or region where the power quality is unreliable. You will notice however that the regenerators have operational limits for their own operation. Usually the range of operation for the regenerator is not much different than the range of operation for your audio components. This is usually 90-125VAC. Many audio components sound best when operated at their peak voltage range which is around 117-120 volts. Advantage to the regenerator.

In most countries the power service is very reliable regarding the maintenance of voltage level, frequency and phase. In our research, we have found that THD and other low frequency power line distortion is not audible in an audio system. High frequency noise, RFI and EMI however do have an audible effect on perceived system performance. Both regenerator and passive designs can reduce high frequency noise. Advantage to both.

Regenerators have some very serious disadvantages. Since they are essentially a high-current amplifier internally, they are subject to the same limitations as any amplifier. Imagine what would happen to reliability of your 1000 watt amplifier if you ran a sinewave through it at 70-80% of maximum power for days and weeks at a time. First you are going to generate a lot of heat and heat is what kills solid state components. So reliability is a very real problem for regenerators. Disadvantage to the regenerator.

Since a regenerator is an amplifier it has limits on how much current it can deliver to the load over time. No regenerator is 100% efficient so some of the energy from the power line is consumed and lost by the regenerator. High end audio systems consume massive amounts of current. Current is what drives your system. Current is what is important. When the voltage sine wave in your home is flat topped this means that either the wiring in the wall or the power transformer feeding your house is maxed out in its ability to deliver peak current. The voltage falls because there is not enough current reserve in the power system not because the voltage level needs to be adjusted. Now you introduce a power regenerator into the circuit which consumes more of the current that you already didn't have enough of in the first place. So what did you accomplish? As an aside: if flat topped waveforms are such a problem why do some of these regenerators have "alternate" waveforms which is essentially flat topping the waveform? Curious. And if THD is a problem then changing the waveform from a sinewave increases harmonic distortion. Curious again.

Several years ago, we purchased and hold the patent to the best power regeneration technology. It was created by Michael Vice in collaboration with Jack Bybee. If we believed that the best way to power an audio system was through regeneration then the HYDRA would be a regenerator. If and when the inherent problems with regeneration can be resolved we will introduce a regeneration type product. Until then, we believe that HYDRA technology is superior in reliability and performance for high-end audio systems.

Do your homework. Why do so many high-end audio manufacturers and PRO audio studios use HYDRAs? How many of the same use regenerators? And finally try a HYDRA and a regenerator in your own system. As a matter of fact don't use a HYDRA for the comparison - borrow our least expensive power distributor VENOM PS8 for the comparison.

cg


Since a regenerator is not 100% efficient and acts like an amplifier itslef ... it will use current and be in competition with your amplifier and other components that also need current.  I can't be sure at what level this would effect an A/V system.  There is probably a huge difference between say a 1000 watt McIntosh SS amp compared to a 2-6 Watt Tube Amp such as the Mini Torii and a regenerator may not have any negative effects at all and possibly enhance the setup.

And this is by no means a dis on PS Audio and sorry FB I didn't mean to throw a monkey wrench into the thought process, but just trying to bring awareness to the pros and cons of each companies philosophys. Undecided
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #38 - 03/11/15 at 13:34:44
 
Thanks for your interest and thoughts, Will and beowulf ... Although you both present very valid arguments, I'm still confused.

First off, an Isolation Transformer only decouples the mains AC current from the audio components by separating the primary winding from the secondary distribution after a simple 1:1 transformation. I don't honestly see how this can prevent grid issues like voltage swings or frequency fluctuations, and so forth. What it can do, is prevent surges and filter original AC noise present in the primary winding, but any voltage/frequency swings would be transmitted to the secondary all the same.

A passive conditioning device works wonders filtering noise but is just a passive transmitter of the wild swings in the original signal, no different from my Isolation Tx, except maybe for the passive's low output impedance (transformers are considered high output impedance).

I agree a variable could be the Isolation Transformer going haywire and that needs to be checked alright, but again, it does not seem to be too likely considering the power supply context I live in these days.

If the regeneration concept really works, I agree with Will's suggestion as a long-term solution. The question is, given its high cost, will it absolutely work and correct my issues?

What can a Shunyata P8 plus defender do for me that my IS Tx doesn't, except again for the lower output impedance? This is affordable but likely not enough in my case. I think we all agree a PS P5 or P10 would be the best overall solution, but it just cannot be financed ...

So, until my electrician says there's a problem in my circuit or confirms the wild swings in the AC power supply, I don't see a feasible solution yet. This weekend I'll try again to listen carefully and see what may have changed or not, and will report back.

Thanks so much for your much appreciated and valid inputs, guys.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #39 - 03/11/15 at 15:21:04
 
I know Palomino had some really out of spec voltage issues that caused his Regenerator to shut down (I forget which one). So there are limits to what they can handle.

In my area my voltage is quite regularly 125v, and my power is pretty flat-topped during the day. My P10 absolutely locks it in at 120v and corrects those flat topped sign waves.

With my ZMA I really don't hear much of a difference, but on my little 2 watt Zen amp it was a Holy Shit! difference. And it's rare that something catches me off guard like that.

The PS Audio regenerators can also widen the top of that sign wave, giving your gear more at the tops and bottoms of the cycle...which they say gives the effect of having bigger capacitors in your gear. Several of us in the PS Audio forums played with this and the DirectStream and we all noticed a difference. Again, I don't see much difference with the ZMA due to it's large caps.

Maybe I'm missing something in this thread, I admit I didn't read every word - but a Power Regenerator seems the most local way of resolving *all* power issues.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #40 - 03/11/15 at 15:53:35
 
LR,

I would absolutely agree if it is a fact the regeneration unit would be enough to cope with erratic AC supply conditions. As you can see, there are opposing views on the matter by "specialists", so a neofyte like me finds himself at a loss trying to justify a relatively expensive piece of kit like a large enough Power Regeneration unit.

If I go by the several positive testimonies in this forum, the regeneration device makes sense, I just wished the consensus was more general than it really is ... In the meantime, I'm keeping my attention on good used power regenerators for sale.

Thanks for your thoughts.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #41 - 03/11/15 at 17:46:11
 
Well, you understand electronics - the regenerator (while expensive) makes the most sense, simply because it completely removes the issues from the circuit by creating a new sign wave from scratch. As long as it's not introducing any other issues while doing so, I don't see how it could be bad for anything but your bank account.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #42 - 03/11/15 at 20:20:49
 
In theory, yes  :)
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #43 - 03/11/15 at 20:43:35
 
Beowulf, Its not like I have a love affair with PSAudio regenerators...As you know, my P5 was a struggle to get the sound I liked from. And I did not want to have to go there, preferring the concepts like CG at Shunyata. But I ended up with some of both, and there is no doubt that this is the best end for me at this point with current tech...this indicates part of the trouble...nothing is necessarily the best for all situations and gear. In your setting, with regular voltage, regeneration may not be the thing. Or as LR says with the Mystery amp...it does not seem to matter.

The way I understand the P3 from emails with PSA, I would have thought it might work in your setting. The High Current plugs are supposed to be basically a 15 amp receptacle with filters and electronically separate from the regen circuits. So maybe the big suckers like subs there? With the regen side allowing up to 7-800 VA, seems the more sensitive TV, amp and whatever else might be able to go there. But maybe your demand would push it too hard???

The more I learn about this and experience it, the more I think the players are salesmen as much as designers, but also with personal attachments to their concepts. This does not prove one or another, nor does it disprove....more likely just preferences and attachments.

CG is clearly convinced that his system is better, as is McGowen. To me both are conceptually good...each doing things differently, but their interpretation of each other's chosen strategies could have a wee bit of ego bias influencing things? Also it may be PSaudio can be a little cagey with their technology? I tend to find it a little hard to get full answers from them..or maybe it is the fast-lane thing so many fall into...making it hard for them to really carefully consider questions and take the time to answer....but I think if we had more complete stories from them, these questions would disappear. Just look at this thread...lots of inconclusiveness based on copy from the "men."

But think it through. If the regenerator can deliver large transient spikes (at least within spec) while outputting constant voltage, amperage, and THD levels, then the regenerator itself is storing enough power to deliver it in good form despite variations in voltage, current, and noise of the incoming power, AND despite the regenerators own power consumption necessary to accomplish all this transformation.

It seems that, in effect, it is canceling incoming power from the equation after the external transformer, or house lines, or EMFs or anything else...remaking what comes in into something stable and clean. In this conceptualization, I do not get CGs idea about the regenerator contributing further to the noise problem of limited input current. It seems to me, within its limitations, the regenerator is supposed to take care of all that. Edit: (sorry, I meant to say noise problems of limited input current rather than "problem" referring to the flat topping/THD thing CG speaks of, not to imply the regen can make more power than what it draws, just that it recreates it without the incoming problems)

But as LR said, I recall also, there was a wildness incoming at which Palomino had his cutting off. This is what I was referring to earlier in terms of finding out what the tolerances are of the regenerator...what sorts of wild power swings coming in can it take...current, voltage, and THD or other noise? What are its limitations?

From Fireblade's setting, this could be important.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #44 - 03/11/15 at 21:06:04
 
A regenerator must draw as much current from the mains as it delivers to the amps. When/if the mains voltage drops the current will drop so the regenerator must be ahead of the game by having a) a reservoir ( caps?) or b) take more current instantly to maintain the load. Or both.
My mains conditioner has big transformers, I suppose 1:1 with tuned cicuits to draw off the noise on the primary. Maybe they are 1:1.1 to account for loss. It has other conditioning  functions as well. My unit isn`t made any more but the comparable one they make refers to surge and spike protection but not maintaining power in case of voltage drop.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #45 - 03/11/15 at 21:17:17
 
Just as an update on my situation.  I sent the PPP back to PS Audio and they did some warranty work on it.  I haven't had the even higher THD like I saw last summer, but so far no issues with it shutting down.  My P300 has never shut down.

I was pretty happy with the way PS Audio handled the whole PPP situation.  While I shared my power issues with them, they never tried to pin it on that and suggested I send it back to them just in case it was a hardware issue.  It cost me $40 to ship, but they turned it around quickly and now I have another year warranty on the unit.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #46 - 03/11/15 at 21:23:57
 
Good to hear, Palomino. It may be of help if/when I get a used PS Audio Regenerator, hopefully soon.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #47 - 03/14/15 at 03:01:17
 
I'll condense my reply to this issue by saying that of the three PS Audio regenrators that I have owned; P300, P500 &PPP, my choice would be a close tie between the P300 and P500. I had nothing but trouble with the PPP, and only the older units provide balanced power which I found to be one of the most important aspects of their design(I also own a BPT isolation transformer with 5 separate secondary windings. Each secondary provides balanced power).  I now own the P500, but changed out power supply caps to new ones with higher voltage rating. One of the old caps actually rattled inside it was so dry. I bought the unit damaged, but the repairs were minimal, and now it runs as it should.
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #48 - 03/14/15 at 18:05:39
 
Thanks 4K,

It sounds like the earlier power plants are really pretty smart designs. If you get a chance can you tell us what you think of your BPT sound and how you use compared to the regenerators? And maybe how the P500 sound compares to the PPP?
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Re: Still having issues with AC Power
Reply #49 - 03/14/15 at 18:20:55
 
Compared to my P300, the Power Plant Premier had a "signature" (which I really heard even more clearly when I got the P5). I liked the signature: rich and warm, complemented my system really well. But the P300 was more neutral, tighter sounding in my estimation and recollection.
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