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Becoming Isolated (Read 5710 times)
Fireblade
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #50 - 02/26/15 at 12:19:12
 
Can anyone tell me if it would be a good idea to alternate diffuser panels with absorption panels along all sides of the room? Presumably, the number of absorption panels would be higher than the number of diffusers given the corner traps and the need to absorb first impact areas. This would only leave diffuser areas in-between those and maybe in the back and front walls, alternating with the absorption panels, I guess?

I currently have all my room setup with absorption panels only, and I don't have any booming or sibilance or ear-piercing effects, and the sound is neat, clear and balanced, but I wonder if my room has lost some of the liveliness that bare wall areas may bring. This is where the diffusers, I think, in my particular case, would come in and create some synergies with the absorption areas.

Instead of bare areas (tradeoff with booming and sibilance), I plan to try diffusers to enliven the room even more and see if I like the end result.

Just thinking ...

Any thoughts/experiences?  Thanks!
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Palomino
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #51 - 02/26/15 at 12:29:13
 
I run absorbers in front and both absorbers and diffusers on the side.  Small skyline diffusers in the back.

On the sides I have the absorbers at the first reflection points and these half pipe type diffusers at the secondary reflection points.  Right now I think this gives me the best soundstage.

I have also switched them but feel absorber first is best.  I should probably test this again.  I did put the half pipes in the back of the room but lost the wall of sound so I switched them back.

I just got the bid on precut wood for some qrd diffusers which I plan to try center front.
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Dave1210
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #52 - 02/26/15 at 12:43:59
 
I am currently using diffusion at the first reflection and absorption at the second reflection points on the side.  It has been a while since I tested this, but I will switch mine around this weekend and report back.

My absorption panels in the rear of the room have scatter plates (GIK) which offer some diffusion and I will sometimes place some cheap styrofoam diffusors in the windows to reduce slap back off the glass.

I think a mixture of both absorption and diffusion is probably best.  I do recall that diffusion needs some room to breath though.  Sitting too close to a diffusor may not be ideal.    

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Palomino
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #53 - 02/26/15 at 14:29:56
 
To kind of merge the two topics of this thread, I am hearing very good detail from the isolation I have done and have a better special sense of the soundstage.

As such, I am noticing anything that is not balanced in my room.  For example, across the front of the room I have three absorbers. (also bass traps in each corner).  Last night I got fixated on the fact that the sound was not balanced.  I adjusted speakers, seating position, etc.

Finally, I measured the exact placement of the three absorber panels and found they were off by quite a bit.  I realigned them to be equal distance from the side walls and found it to be better in terms of balancing the sound.

I also found that both the bass and treble controls have to be bang on equal on both sides of the MK III or it can tilt the sound to one side.

I have other issues such as I have a desk in the back of the room with a wing on the side but I've found that if I am seated equal to the front most part of the wing, most of the imbalance goes away.
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Fireblade
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #54 - 02/26/15 at 15:41:51
 
Sounds doable, yep. I was not aware, but it makes all the sense in the world that diffusers require breathing space to send out the convoluted waves spectrum and realize their job. So, the distance between the diffuser and its adjacent absorption panels ought to be zero-ed in, probably by trial-and-error.

Somehow, having the diffuser at the first impact does not sound intuitive to me ... But, is worth trying both ways. Also, the mixed pattern of both diffusion and absorption panels in the back and front walls needs to be determined.

Now I need to find some easy DIY materials/gadgets to come up with my first rudimentary diffusers, until you guys show me the way with the ones you've ordered.

Thanks for the pointers.
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Ace-Tone
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #55 - 02/26/15 at 16:21:33
 
Fireblade and all:  There are some good papers and pictures of Steve's room.  On Decware home page click on the tube icon "rooms".  Lot's of good tips & many questions answered.
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Fireblade
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #56 - 02/26/15 at 20:52:27
 
Thanks, Acetone. I'll check that out.
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Dave1210
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #57 - 02/26/15 at 22:10:09
 
Diffusion didn’t make sense to me at the first reflection points either, but that was what GIK recommended.   When I initially compared absorption vs. diffusion in my room, I preferred diffusion due to soundstage width (wider with diffusion).  That said, my system has gone through a number of changes since the initial test and I would like to revisit the experiment.
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Fireblade
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #58 - 02/27/15 at 12:16:56
 
I agree, Dave. I think we ought to try all possibilities before making a final judgement.

I keep surprising myself as how often what is intuitive is not necessarily what sounds the best, simply because we never envision all the relevant variables. It may well be that soundstage improves with diffusers on first impact. In fact, one of my doubts is whether my room has deadened too much, which may translate into smaller, less vivid soundstage.

I'll re-visit the placement of my absorption panels one more time myself (although currently the sound is great), to see if I may be overdoing the absorption approach.

Thanks for the heads up.
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Palomino
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #59 - 03/02/15 at 20:36:20
 
I tried switching the absorber and the diffuser this weekend and felt I got a better (wider/more extended towards the listener) soundstage with my original configuration - absorber at the first reflection point and diffusion at the second.

I also just about finished a prototype of a proper diffuser this weekend.  Raven spec'd it out using QRDude.  I'm not sure I will get much out of just one, but its about 3ft by 2 ft.  I plan to try it on the wall in front between my speakers.  It will be elevated above my low profile equipment "rack" on a proper milk crate.  My final will be about 4' by 2" and I will make at least two.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #60 - 03/03/15 at 03:40:55
 
GIK says diffusers at first reflection points because they are proper broadband diffusers. The theory is that you want to break up and time delay the reflected sound *before* it reaches your ears. When you're using absorbers at the first reflection point, your just deadening that reflection point, mostly the high frequency where spacial queues are.

P.I Audio says absorbers at first reflection points and diffusers on either side. I plan on trying both ways to see what works for me.

Personally, I think you should just use what sounds (or measures) best to you in your room. If I had true broadband diffusers, I'd be going diffusion first probably, but I'd let my ears guide me. The truth is most of us don't have proper broadband absorbers or diffusers.

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Palomino
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #61 - 03/03/15 at 14:21:45
 
I found this on a web site that presented plans for diffusers.  My diffusers are more of what he calls semicylinders.

Both types of diffusers are great but I consider reflection phase grating diffusers (like stepped diffusers and QRD diffusers) to be more precise tools than semicylinders. If you need to return diffuse sound directly to the listener from the first reflection points (without waiting for it to bounce around the room), reflection phase grating diffusers are the more appropriate choice.

However, if you simply want to scatter acoustic energy in your room to create a more diffuse reverberant sound field, you can get away with simpler geometries such as polycylinders

Also, my prototype diffuser is almost ready.  Still need to get all the well face strips positioned.  I made a couple of bad cuts and a few are just a hair too wide.

Back on the subject of isolation, I replaced two of my marble tiles with  lexan sheets because I could cut these to size easily and place my mini/DAC/power supplies on them.

I feel the sound is a little mellower but I could be fooling myself.  The lexan is certainly deader than the marble, so it's possible.  The key is to see if these develop dimples over time and stop the rolling of the ball bearings.

Its a much neater solution than the tiles which basically come in two sizes.  If these work, I will probably replace the tiles under my speakers.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #62 - 03/03/15 at 15:07:49
 

The Mad Scientist at work!

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mark58
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #63 - 03/03/15 at 16:15:41
 
OK,  a question for you knowledgeable folks on this thread.  My listening room is small and cluttered with the only wall suitable for treatment being the one behind the speakers.  This wall also has a door to the right when sitting in the listening position. The room is 11 feet by 11 feet with an eight foot ceiling with the popcorn texture on it as was popular in the 80's and a carpeted concrete floor. So my question is what could I expect with diffusers on this wall and how many should be used?  If you've read any of my recent posts, you know I've been struggling with the treble in my main system...a bit more Bass volume would be welcomed.  Thanks,  Mark.
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #64 - 03/03/15 at 16:44:55
 
What little I know of room acoustics and treatment, in a small room "reflection" is probably what is limiting the bass. So "absorption" may be the best . . . "diffusion" . . . someone with more experience will be able to help I know. I have never been, and probably never will be, able to fully address room treatment in my listening rooms because of either renting or my cohabitant's wishes.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #65 - 03/03/15 at 17:39:09
 

Being a small room, and *square* having an 11 X 11 footprint, you're going to have a LOT of bass problems. Play some bass heavy music, and walk around your room - I'm betting you'll have these bass heavy spots, and absolute bass suck points. In order to start correcting your issues, you need to get rid of some of that bass!

Sounds counter-intuitive, I know. But what's happening is those giant 20'+ bass waves are slamming into each other as they are trying to stretch out in your room. So one wave might bounce back and fourth between your walls multiple times before the full wave is even developed!

Think about it like this. You have a positive wave that hits a wall and bounces back and runs into itself. If it happens to bump into itself at another positive wave, you get a BIG muddy boom at that spot. If the positive wave happens to hit on a negative wave of itself, it cancels itself out and you have a suck spot - it's like being in the eye of a tornado everything is weirdly dead but theirs sound all around you.

So what you do is throw up big bass traps in the corners - the bass traps soak up a bunch of that excess bass so the bounce doesn't + or - itself. You still hear the main note, but the bounces are less damaging. There is almost no way to really deal with big bass in a small room. It's never going to be right - but you can do your best to lessen the damage.

It's not light reading - but do some googling on Superchunk bass traps. It's the colloquial name for the big corner traps of which I speak.

http://arqen.com/bass-traps-101/placement-guide/

If you put diffusion between the speakers on the front wall, you have a chance of deepening and sharpening your soundstage. But being in a smaller room, and square to boot, I think you're going to need several acoustic absorbers.
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #66 - 03/03/15 at 17:41:50
 

Also - I know you don't have a lot of room to move around, but if you do the walk around finding the boomy and suck points you'll realize that if you move your speakers and listening chair around, you have a good chance of finding a more neutral zone to sit in and make your sweet spot.
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #67 - 03/03/15 at 17:42:32
 
I agree with what Raven says, but if you are not getting enough bass in that small a room, your listening position could be in a null.  I would walk around the room to see if the bass is higher in some spots.

My situation was the opposite in that I had too much bass.  I moved up my listening position and reduced it considerably.
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mark58
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #68 - 03/03/15 at 18:49:01
 
Thanks for all the ideas.  I'll do some investigating and reading tonight.  Mark
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Palomino
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #69 - 03/03/15 at 18:49:45
 
My response and Raven's hit at the same time.  We are saying the same thing.

I got the best advice from the site Raven listed, then the Acoustic Fields youtube videos and the Realtraps site.

Here is the link to the Reatraps site:

http://realtraps.com/
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #70 - 03/03/15 at 20:07:21
 
I agree with the absorbtion on the wall. The door makes it tricky but you can attach something to it. Corner traps and having the speakers aimed at them is an idea. Also those panels I`ve seen where you have 2 or 3 hanging up on the wall evenly spaced must work. I have a hanging carpet 9x6 ft covering that wall with corner bass traps that are only 3 ft high. I think I`ve sorted most of the relection and it all sounds good. Ive read your posts about pronounced top treble Mark and a `bright` room is also to be considered as well as the bass boom.
You could kill two birds with one stone.

I wonder when Steve will be bring the `bounce mats` on stream.
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Palomino
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #71 - 03/03/15 at 20:20:05
 
+1 on the bounce mats.

BTW, I found that home depot sells acoustic panels.  Price for two & free shiping $138

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Corning-Acoustic-Sound-Absorbing-Wall-Panels-24...
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Fireblade
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #72 - 03/03/15 at 20:52:10
 
For what is worth, my room is also small and almost square (not a good thing) and what made a big difference was installing absorption panels around the sides and on the corners.

I feel I may use some difussion now, to maybe enliven the sound a little bit, but in general, the main issue is reflection and it not only relegates to low frequency but also high frequencies, which tend to become buzzy as the bass becomes boomy.

My DIY cheap panels are placed on wooden stands and I can move them around to optimize placement. I could never be back to what I had before those absorption panels.

Thanks
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Ace-Tone
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #73 - 03/03/15 at 21:21:18
 
Fireblade,  I agree.  I have 6 absorb panels 2' x 4' and 2 corner bass traps. This has significantly improved my room. I will be adding some diffusion on front and back walls in the next week. My set up: front wall - 2 panels and corner bass traps,  side walls - one panel on each wall at 1st reflection. back wall - 2 panels at 1st reflection point. I will put diffusors between speakers on the front wall. and above the panels on back wall to start..then tweak for best performance! I am also adding ceiling corner triagular traps in all 4 ceiling corners. Bass traps made the largest impact on getting good sound.
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Syd
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #74 - 03/03/15 at 23:08:43
 
I`ve been looking for a  `spring` idea for sometime since Archie posted about his islolation base and the spring vibration damping qualities. I`d just found a compression spring site and was going to buy 50 springs for around Ł30.00 and do something with superglue and  bases.
I found these today and bought his last two sets ( 8 pieces ). Ł32.00 inc post. Looking forward to them and if they work hope there will be more in stock.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Golden-7-Spring-Vibration-Isolation-Damper-Feet-4-Pcs-...

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mark58
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #75 - 03/04/15 at 01:54:38
 
Syd, those things look interesting.  Let us know how they work out.  I found this review of isolation devices...haven't read it all yet but there is a tenderfeet and isocup review.  Mark.

http://singaporehifi.blogspot.com/2012/05/footer-shootout-good-bad-and-ugly.html...
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #76 - 03/04/15 at 08:30:01
 
Another spring worth mentioning is from Townshend Audio.  They have a new Seismic Isolation Pods.  I thought the design looked pretty cool and very well made.


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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #77 - 03/04/15 at 08:43:27
 
Wait, those suckers are expensive!  But hey let me throw these graphs up to make it look like I know what I'm talking about for their performance virtues ... Grin



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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #78 - 03/04/15 at 20:00:15
 
Understanding those charts is above my pay grade...

I finished up my QRD13.  This was a prototype so if does not look great, but it does seem to help my center image.  I think I like it well enough to build a couple proper ones.

Here is my room layout today:
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #79 - 03/04/15 at 20:23:11
 
I'm in a small room too mark58. I read Robert Harley's Guide to High End Audio in 1994 and have not been without a treated Listening Room since. Do the basics top down ....yes top down. Upper corners for high freq. treble control. Ceiling also from Tweeter reflection points. Then, the obvious....side wall reflections, rear an bass. The all important front wall for sound stage is a must as I'm sure you read.

I prefer my small room with Decware with the Speakers I prefer.
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #80 - 03/04/15 at 20:24:05
 
I think what those graphs are saying is that the frequency environment is vast and most "isolation" devices either don't isolate (spikes) or have limited isolation (sorbothane).  Isolation for a given material is everything to the right of its performance line.  The Seismic Load Cell looks like a spring with a Natural Frequency of 2.5 Hz -- hence the spike at that frequency.  As depicted, the spring filters best outside of it's Natural Frequency.  At the Natural Frequency it will enhance vibrations.  2.5 Hz is more of a translation than a vibrations for our purposes and is outside of the audio range.
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ZMC1
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ZR2 (25th A Mods)
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Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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beowulf
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #81 - 03/04/15 at 21:41:10
 
Damn Archie ... I think you nailed it!  I put them up there as a joke because I saw them as pure greek, but you sorted that $h!t out pretty good! Grin
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Palomino
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Reply #82 - 03/04/15 at 21:48:45
 
I'll see if I can produce some graphs from my inner tubes Wink
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beowulf
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #83 - 03/04/15 at 22:02:47
 
@ Palomino - Can't wait for that Grin
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Syd
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #84 - 03/04/15 at 22:48:28
 
I`m not the only one that can see a head wearing ear buds or muffs surely. The shaved eye brows are very funny.

Nice layout palomino. Thats organised. Having the listening chair into the room must add to some good prospects.
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Palomino
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #85 - 03/04/15 at 23:01:35
 
Ha!  Never saw that before.  Kinda where's waldo'ish

My "listening chair" is now a lawn chair with a mesh seat.  One of those zero gravity chairs.  I did have a recliner in there but it blocked sound and limited the soundstage.

Its not overly comfortable, but I haven't done anything to really get a new chair.

I did like the chairs at tlarwa's house when Raven and I took our last audio road trip.  Leather and comfy with a nice footstool.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #86 - 03/05/15 at 02:31:04
 
Quote:
I did like the chairs at tlarwa's house when Raven and I took our last audio road trip.  Leather and comfy with a nice footstool.
,

Seriously, good music (Doors), comfy chairs, and good company...I almost fell asleep in that room several times just zoning out to the music. Those were hands down the most comfortable chairs I've ever sat in. I just wish I could "trim" the back down to shoulder height to give my ears some space. I totally hear treble spike off leather like that. That's why I subconsciously crane my neck forward when I listen on high-backed chairs. I noticed he had a blanket in there (probably for the wife), and I almost threw it over that headrest portion to damp it some.

I'm not joking when I say I'd find one of those chairs, send it out to a shop to have it chopped down and adjusted.  But I'm nutty like that.  :)
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Palomino
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #87 - 03/10/15 at 15:09:37
 
This thread is well off topic, but I wanted to finish it out.  

My "prototype" QRD13 diffuser in the rear of the room really opens up the soundstage (with just one panel!), so I am building two full size ones out of better wood.  Note: There was not comparison between front and back wall placement.  Back wall placement won easily.

I am just about done with the first one and the build went reasonably well - given that I did not route out slots for the fins in the top or bottom plate.  I just could not see myself ever getting this accurate enough.

What helps is I got my lumber precision cut at the local hardwoods store.  Well worth the $1 per cut.  I did cut the spacers for each well at home (33 spacers per diffuser) but did  a good job making sure they were accurate.  The other thing that helps in putting it together is lots of clamps.

I put the almost completed one in my room (on one side - secondary reflection point) and I am really happy with the results.  Everything has just more body and is more immersive.  I can't wait to get the next one done.

This is the king of soundstage upgrades in my short lived audiophile adventure.  Total cost of materials for 1 diffuser  $115.

Rear wall:

 

Clamps, clamps, clamps:


Near finished product (still needs the final side put on):




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Lonely Raven
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #88 - 03/10/15 at 15:32:26
 

That last shot looks amazing.  :)

Did you wind up using 1/4" fins, or still 1/8"

If the fins get "floppy" in the middle, you can take some 1/8" material and cut slots in it like a comb, and press it over the fins, across the middle of the device.

Something like this -

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Palomino
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Reply #89 - 03/10/15 at 15:45:58
 
The prototype was 1/8" and flopped too much, so I went with 1/4".  Also the hardwood guy said he could not guarantee the cuts on 1/8" for the well faces, so I just did everything but the sides and back in 1/4".

I am probably going to paint these black to match all my bass traps and absorber panels.  I did want to keep them natural, but I was just too sloppy with the glue.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #90 - 03/10/15 at 17:53:27
 

If you have an air compressor, I have a spray gun that will help out. Brushing these are a huge PITA.
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Palomino
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Reply #91 - 03/10/15 at 18:13:17
 
I'm totally going to spray them.  I may take you up on your gun offer.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Becoming Isolated
Reply #92 - 03/12/15 at 15:40:51
 
Any updates Palomino?

I looked at my diffuser that I started from scraps last night. I've got about 4 fins of 13 done on it, and got pissed because it wasn't perfect. LOL

I was expecting my shipment of diffusers from PI Audio today, but Fed Ex says they are delayed due to storms...they must go to a weird hub out east or something. So I might have them tomorrow instead.

I've got my table saw cleared off to build stands and maybe be ambitious enough to finish up my one QRD 13 from scraps.
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Palomino
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Reply #93 - 03/12/15 at 22:07:07
 
No, not much.  The two I have in place sound great.  On music with a big stage, the walls are no longer there.  I do need the third one though because the room is off kilter.
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