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ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions (Read 41034 times)
Rizlaw
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ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
11/08/14 at 01:49:11
 
My ZBIT black box arrived this evening, Serial No.002. I guess Steve has No.001. The ZBIT has a pair of XLR inputs and a pair of gold or (optional) silver RCA outputs. Mine came with silver RCA outs. According to Steve, the silver RCA are machined to closer tolerances for better cable fit. I'm sure some will say they also sound better.  I also have the standard front control knob; I think Steve will also offer a silver contact stepped control knob as an upgrade option.

The purpose of the box is to properly send the output signal and voltage of a true balanced circuit to the unbalanced input of a preamp or amp without significant signal degredation. As I understand it, the ZBIT uses the same high quality Jensen JT-11P-1 Input Transformers optionally available for the Zen Mystery Amp. You can read more about the Jensen input transformers here: http://www.jensen-transformers.com/ln_in.html and here http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an003.pdf

I was concerned whether the cost of such a device would really impart a significant sonic improvement to my desktop system. I needn't have worried. In a word, it's wonderful. IMO, sonically, there is genuine value in adding this device to your system, particularly if you have an unbalanced CSP3 + Taboo III setup as I do.

What am I hearing? Well, I immediately hear a more palpable and powerful presentation of the music. High frequencies have a sparkle (just like Steve said they would). Delicate percussion instruments like Triangle's have more tinkle in their tinkle when struck and stand out better in their own space. Percussion instruments like gongs and bells are more impressive with their enhanced realism. Low frequency instruments like Bass and Tympani drums sound substantially more lifelike and fleshed out within the orchestra; the vibration of the drum head(s) is more audible. Double Basses exhibit more body and when played in their lowest registers and have a guttier string sound.

I am impressed by the additional overall sense of power and definition imparted to all the music passing through the ZBIT Box. I imagine this is what many who have described the sound of the Zen Mystery Amp and Zen Mono's hear routinely. You can now get a good dose of that sound by adding a ZBIT.

Not the best glamour shot of the ZBIT sitting atop my Wyred4Sound DAC-2:

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Kboe
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #1 - 11/08/14 at 23:45:34
 
That's awesome!  Steve and I talked about doing the same thing with the rig I'm building.  I've also thought about going with the Super Zen Select and choosing the balanced inputs which would get the same effect I think.

Those are two beautiful pieces by the way.
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Rizlaw
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #2 - 11/13/14 at 00:05:11
 
Kboe, thanks for the compliment.

Last evening I decided to continue ZBIT experimentation. I disconnected my CSP3 from the ZBIT / Taboo III and fed the output of the ZBIT box directly into the Taboo III. With the CSP3 out of the loop, I heard a noticeable improvement in the overall sound. With the simpler, more direct, signal path, the sound was just as powerful without the CSP3 and had an added sense of clarity as if an ever so slight veil was removed from the music. I discussed this with Steve today and he agreed with me about what I heard and why.

Because of this improvement, I've decided, for the time being, to remove the CSP3 as a preamp front end to the Taboo III. To my ears, balanced W4S DAC-2 to ZBIT to TABOO III is an alternative and possibly superior way to go.  My CSP3 will do headphone duty with my Beyerdynamic 600 ohm headphones.
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Rizlaw
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #3 - 12/05/14 at 18:50:20
 
A small update for those who may be interested.

I had to send my ZBIT #002 box back to Steve for a very small, not worth mentioning issue. While discussing this with Steve, I asked if another pair of outputs could be added to the ZBIT so that I could power my subwoofer from the ZBIT now that I was bypassing the CSP3 and going directly from my W4S DAC-2 (recently upgraded to DAC-2DSDse -- big improvement!) to the ZBIT to the Taboo III. Before the ZBIT I was using my CSP3 which has a subwoofer out jack to provide a signal to my powered sub. Steve said it could be done and it wouldn't affect the sound improvement I heard with only one output on my ZBIT #002 box. (I was concerned that splitting the signal might have a negative sonic effect).

I now have ZBIT #004 with a silver pair of RCAs for the DAC to Taboo III connection and a pair of gold RCAs for the DAC to subwoofer (or any other component) input connection. My auditory memory of the ZBIT #002 tells me there is no difference between #002 and #004. I could have added a separate volume control for each output, but I chose not to since the Taboo III and the subwoofer each have there own controls and I felt less is more.

Oh, and I forgot to say, THANK YOU STEVE. You are the BEST!

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Fireblade
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #4 - 05/12/15 at 21:57:51
 
Rizlaw wrote:

With the CSP3 out of the loop, I heard a noticeable improvement in the overall sound. With the simpler, more direct, signal path, the sound was just as powerful without the CSP3 and had an added sense of clarity as if an ever so slight veil was removed from the music. I discussed this with Steve today and he agreed with me about what I heard and why.

This is what worries me ... The ZBit is also an added stage on the signal path, and the ideal would be to have the balanced DAC output go directly to a balanced-capable amp. Since most of the Decware line does not offer balanced inputs (except the ZMA), I was thinking maybe what is obtained from the balanced signal is lost due to the transparency veiling effect of crowding the signal path through another stage and more cables (i.e. the ZBit stage). Just a thought.

I need the ZBit, but worry about whether it may result even better using the single-ended output from the balanced DAC directly to the amp and avoid the issue I described, unless of course the added clogging of the signal path is negligible, and the sonic benefits remain positive with the balanced option.

Could you do this easy test for us all, checking sonic differences between single-ended direct to the amp and then through the ZBit with the balanced output and see what is better?

Thanks for any feedback.
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Rizlaw
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #5 - 05/15/15 at 17:46:46
 
Hi Fireblade,

I'd be happy to perform your little test over the weekend (5/16-7).
You asked:

Quote:
Could you do this easy test for us all, checking sonic differences between single-ended direct to the amp and then through the ZBit with the balanced output and see what is better?


To be clear: the ZBIT does not have a "balanced output" as you wrote, only a balanced input. I'm sure this was an inadvertent typo. The Jensen transformers in the ZBIT convert the balanced input signal to an unbalanced output signal which leaves the ZBIT on a pair of RCA jacks. Jensen has a white paper on this balanced/unbalanced conversion process titled "AN003.pdf" which can be found at http://www.jensen-transformers.com/application-notes/  You will need to register on Jensen's site to be able to download the pdf file.

So, if I understand you correctly, you want to know whether or not I can hear audible differences between:

(A) sending the audio signal from my DAC's unbalanced output directly into the unbalanced input of my Taboo III (eliminating both the CSP3 and ZBIT from the path)

                                           - VS -

(B) sending the audio signal from my DAC's balanced output to the ZBITs balanced input and then from the ZBITs transformer unbalanced output to the Taboo IIIs unbalanced input (eliminating only the CSP3 from the audio path).

Do I have it right, or have I misunderstood something?

P.S. For a while now, I've notice that checking the box to be notified of replies to topic is not working for me. That's why I generally, don't reply in a timely manner. Perhaps one of the moderators can look into this problem. It would be appreciated.
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Fireblade
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #6 - 05/15/15 at 20:04:57
 
Hi Rizlaw,

When I said balanced output, I meant the DAC's output, NOT the ZBit's. So, yes, that is exactly the test I'm requesting, if you will.

This would hopefully corroborate that, overall, there's a net advantage by using the ZBit in the signal path, in spite of any possible conspicuous 'veiling' added by the extra ZBit stage. Of course, the requisite is too have good, not to lengthy, XLR IC's.

Although I already ordered the ZBit this morning, it would be interesting to know that it was a good decision. Thanks for any feedback.
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Rizlaw
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #7 - 05/15/15 at 20:49:40
 
Okay Fireblade. I'll try to get to testing tonight if I can. I may have something for you by tomorrow.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #8 - 05/16/15 at 13:34:29
 
Thanks! No hurries, though. Forgot to add I also ordered the Yggdrasil yesterday, which is on back order until early July.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #9 - 05/16/15 at 15:25:12
 

Awesome FB! I look forward to hearing your review!

ProggRob - have you ordered yours yet? You're late!!

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Fireblade
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #10 - 05/16/15 at 17:43:50
 
Thanks! Well, expected shipping date is late June / early July, so it's going to be a long one ... This particular device demands a long and constant warm-up period before it really blossoms (just the warm-up is about 5 days long the first time around!), so only after it reaches steady-state I'll be able to make it justice in my observations.

BTW, does anyone knows what the leadtime is for the ZBit to ship?
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Rizlaw
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #11 - 05/16/15 at 18:53:03
 
Fireblade, here is the comparison you requested.

Components used:

Audio Source: Linux Computer / bitperfect USB out / 16/44 FLAC files

DAC:          Wyred 4 Sound  DAC-2seDSD

Output type / Output voltage / Volume setting
RCA                    2.6V             70                Setting used for test
RCA                   2V              68

XLR                    5.2V             70                Setting used for test
XLR                   4V              68


ACCESSORY:    Decware ZBIT (Alps voltage attenuator
                     set at ~ 6/8 - 7/8 open to match balanced
                     XLR output level to DAC-2 RCA unbalanced output)

AMP:               Decware Taboo III (2.1 volts input for full output.
                     Stepped Silver Attenuation control set at +11 clicks out
                     of 20)

CABLES:          Decware 1M Silver Reference for RCAs
                     Goertz .5M Sapphire Silver XLRs
                     Wireworld Starlight USB 1.5M

HEADPHONE:    Audeze LCD-2.1 (warm sound, beautiful midrange
                     and very good bass, top end slightly muted)


SETUP A (ZBIT in)    : Source USB digital out to > DAC digital USB input > DAC Balanced analog XLR out to > Zbit Balanced analog XLR input > ZBIT unbalanced analog RCA out to > Taboo III unbalanced input 1

SETUP B (ZBIT out)   : Source USB digital out to > DAC digital USB input > DAC unbalanced RCA out to > Taboo III unbalanced input 2


My subjective impressions via LCD-2.1 headphones:

Apart from doing the best I could, by ear, to keep levels even, this test is clearly not scientific. I don't put a lot of faith in subjective test because everyone hears things differently and there is too much variability in the equipment/cables used.  Above are the components I used. I'm not an audio ideologue for tubes -vs- transistors, copper -vs- silver, balanced -vs- unbalanced, etc., etc. I elected to use headphones for this test because, IMO, a good headphone reveals more information about the recording for testing purposes.  I do prefer listening through good speakers. I believe I am using a good headphone for this test and I am familiar with my LCD-2.1s minor shortcomings. Take my opinions for what they are worth: just another opinion.

My overall impression is that "Setup A (ZBIT in)", for a not insignificant cost, adds something positive and worthwhile to the overall enjoyment of listening to reproduced music. In some ways it's a subliminal improvement: an added bit of life, power and sparkle to the sound.  Most of time, until you "listen" for it, you don't always realize the improvement is present in the playback of the recording. The improvement is, to be fair, subtle but, I feel, real. I'm told, not everyone likes the effect. I used to think that a custom-made quality XLR to RCA cable was good enough to convert a balanced output to unbalanced input with no loss in information or fidelity. The ZBIT proved to me that I was wrong. Reading the Jensen paper on proper balanced to unbalanced conversion helped me to understand why I was wrong (at least to the extent I understood the paper).

My apologies if I did not pick current music like hard rock, metal, techno pop or anything that's constantly compressed and unbearably loud. My musical tastes are more: classical, movie soundtracks, opera, light jazz, vocals from the 40s-90s. I could have picked a wider selection, but I don't think it would have shed any more light on the test FIREBLADE asked me to perform.  I'm sure others will add their impressions (pro and con) as more ZBITs are sold and heard.


1. Michael Giacchino: Star Trek Into Darkness - Track 1 "Logos/Pranking The Natives"

I listened to approximately the first minute of this track "Logos". It contains a mixture of horns, chimes/gongs, choir and sustained electronic low bass tones. It's a soft and lovely horn theme.

With "Setup A" I hear a large reverberant space. The horns sound full and powerful. The percussion is lively and I can hear the percussionist(s) hitting each chime/gong with their associated shimmering reverberations trailing off into the sound mix. The female choir is clear and in the distant background. Toward the end, the string section shimmers as the music builds to a crescendo before the change to "Pranking The Natives".

With "Setup B" the large orchestral reverberant space closes down (I estimate by almost a third). The horns sound thinner and less powerful as do the chimes/gongs and choir. The shimmer and fade in the percussion instruments is diminished. The choir's vocalization is less distinct and harder to hear and its depth in the sound field is diminished. The sustained electronic low bass sounds less powerful. The string section doesn't have the same intensity and shimmer as the crescendo builds toward the end of this part of the track.

2. Alexandre Desplat: The Grand Budapest Hotel - Track 4 " A Prayer for Madame D"  (Academy Award Score 2014)

A great film with equally great music. This is a short track (1:21) which has xylophone, mandolins (maybe zithers), triangles and what sounds like a real organ. The differences I hear between Setup A and B are that Setup A produces a subtly more ambient, lively and powerful sound. Using Setup A, each of the instruments is every so slightly better defined and placed on the sound stage.

3. Rosanne Cash - 10 Song Demo - Track 1 "Price of Temptation"

Setup A produces, overall, a more lifelike presentation. You can hear more of the air around Cash's voice as well as the piano and eventually the bass guitar. The sonic picture makes her voice slightly more intimate. Setup B seems to slightly flatten the entire sonic picture as if a fine veil was draped over the mics.

4. Kenny Rankin - Because of You - Track 4 " 'Round Midnight" / Track 6 - "Erienda"

Track 4: This studio album sounds a little too dry for me, so I'll call this one pretty much a draw. Male voice and guitar. There could be a slight veiling of the sonic presentation on Setup B, but it's very, very slight.

On other tracks on this CD where other instruments are in the mix, like drums, bell tree, tambourines and saxophone, Setup A does sound better. For example, Track 6 - "Erienda" has different percussion instruments which sound slightly more lifelike, with more detail and shimmer to the sound. I've noticed that the main benefit of the ZBIT doesn't begin to materialize until there is more upper middle/high frequency content in the mix.

5. Dave Grusin - Discovered Again - Track 1 "A Child Is Born"

Here we have piano, drums, cymbals, string bass and vibraphone in a beautiful, slow ballad. And the winner is ..... Setup A. Again, things just sound slightly more lifelike. The upper midrange and treble simply have that added sparkle (not artifical sizzle) which makes things sound more enjoyable. The string bass has more power to its plucked notes compared to Setup B. Setup B has a slightly dulled overall presentation to make it less appealing to me.







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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #12 - 05/16/15 at 19:08:40
 
Nicely done! Smiley
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Fireblade
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #13 - 05/16/15 at 20:14:40
 
Splendid job, Rizlaw! I also like your results. This means I'll be in for a lot of good things once all my new components are settled and working in synergy.

As you know, all additional stages on the signal path diminish transparency. This is a physical fact. Yet, in this case, the benefits of the ZBit/balanced output seem to overcome the losses of having that extra stage. A net positive result.

Thanks so much for enlightening us all!

This will soon be my system's configuration:

Toshiba Laptop
Foobar 2000 / WASAPI Event Mode or ASIO Direct
Audioquest Forest USB cable
Schiit Yggdrasil DAC /Conntek Hospital Grade Power Cord
Belden 1800F XLR Balanced Audio Cables
Decware ZBIT
Decware DSR IC's
Decware Mini Torii beefed up with UFO Mod, Beeswax Caps and Step Attenuators / Jellyfish Hospital Grade Power Cord
Tekton Lore 2.0 / Decware DM945 (Mundorf Supreme Caps)
PI Audio Difussors

Man, I can't wait!
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #14 - 05/16/15 at 23:31:33
 
@ Rizlaw - excellent review and great feedback to those considering purchasing this device!
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Rizlaw
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #15 - 05/18/15 at 00:28:09
 
Thanks to all for the positive response.

Fireblade, I'm interested to hear how you like the Yggy DAC.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #16 - 05/18/15 at 12:07:37
 
Rizlaw,

It is suposed to be the best DAC barring some heavily priced ones out there, including maybe the PSA DS. A comparison with the latter is going to be available pretty soon I guess.

Like I said before, it takes a lot of warming and burn-in but once it is settled I'll provide my impressions. These would be a mix of different things going on, though: Yggdrasil, Balanced outputs, ZBit and soon a beefed up Mini Torii.

I'm expecting night and day differences in my system, but, we'll see. Yesterday I had a great listening session with my current system and it definitely sounds good to me, so I can't imagine how it will sound with the upgrades.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #17 - 05/20/15 at 09:09:50
 
I've been talking about and waiting for Yggdrasil for a long time. (the second oldest mention of yggdrasil on this forum is my post)

I totally buy into Mike Moffats anti delta sigma design views.  And given who he his, and how much performance for value I got out of my Bifrost (great quality for price like Decware), and that they (schiit) say this is the best dac they know how to build... well, I was sold years ago.

I unpacked it from the fedex box today.  I listened to it for 5 hours on my torii3 and hammer dynamics 12 inch (nearly) single driver speakers (97db efficient).  This is my second string system.  ZMA and HDT's are packed away because I'm remodeling. I don't care if the stock torii3 see's a little drywall dust.  (best construction boom box on the planet).

So, I'm playing yggy, single ended, into torii3 with stock caps.  I cannot wipe the smile off my face.  and I know  what my zma and other speakers bring to the table.  This dac, as other owners have been saying... "sounds analog"  "immediately beats my NAD M51".   I know I'm full of confirmation Bias, but my regular old 16/44 music sounds awesome.  smile. smile. smile.

now I regret not getting the balanced xformers in my ZMA.  future upgrade.  

yggdrasil is the real deal made by the one of the godfathers of dacs.  but mine is a biased fanboy opinion.  $0.02.   this was day one.  Today was X-mas.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #18 - 05/20/15 at 12:50:49
 
Great to learn from yet another positive opinion. You also need to consider the balanced output is even better and the longer it stays ON, the better it will sound ... So you're still in for more improvements. Congrats, I can't wait to receive mine!
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #19 - 05/20/15 at 12:53:30
 
Isn't it a passive device? The more use it gets yes, but it's not really "on."
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #20 - 05/20/15 at 12:59:24
 
Lon,

According to the builders, this thing has to be ON all the time for best sound. They say at least 5 days of warm-up for the first time starts yielding the goods. You can listen from a cold start but won't sound the same.

I double-checked with them to be on the safe side about leaving the thing ON always, and what they said was the transients of power cycling creates more harm to lifespan than leaving it ON always, plus, it will sound much better  ... I figure since SteveC just received it, his steady-state warm-up has not been reached yet.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #21 - 05/20/15 at 13:28:09
 
Okay, sorry, I didn't read upthread enough, you were talking about the DAC and I don't disagree at all, I leave all digital devices on 24/7/365. I thought the ZBit was being discussed, and that doesn't have a power cord. Wink
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #22 - 05/20/15 at 13:45:31
 
SteveC,

Glad to hear you like the new DAC.  I have the Schitt Bifrost Uber in my desktop system so I know the brand.

Rob from the CDApS crew is also looking at this DAC but trying to hold off buying one.  Your review will not help Smiley  Please keep us updated.

It was your enthusiasm at Zenfest a few years ago that got me started down the Decware path.  Glad to see you still getting pumped about new gear.

P.S. after hearing Eric's ZMA with balanced and unbalanced inputs, I think its a worthy mod.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #23 - 05/20/15 at 16:17:37
 
Well, I'm old school and still turn on and off my audio devices as required. Never thought about keeping them on forever (except for my router) considering it a waste.

The other consideration is power surges from thunderstorms when you are not around. I guess leaving the Isolation transformer on all the time may not be a good idea either, so those devices would not have any protection. The Isolation Transformer, for example, dissipates heat while working, so the electromechanical aspects of it may suffer from perennial use.

What to do?
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #24 - 05/20/15 at 16:43:37
 
I have as good a protection as I can have for thunderstorm etc. and since I have had such have had no incidents. I'm lucky. All digital I live on all the time. I think it's true that on and off is harmful compared to always on, and I can pay the few extra dollars of electricity. Just my routine, no right or wrong I think.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #25 - 05/20/15 at 20:18:12
 
Yes, I guess the P5 is indeed protecting your devices ... I need to ask around if an Isolation Transformer could be let on continuously, without it loosing much lifespan.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #26 - 05/20/15 at 20:53:13
 

If it's a good, purpose built isolation transformer, then yes, it can and should be on all the time. I have Trip Lite power conditioners and isolation transformers from an AT&T lab that are at least 20 years old and were left on all the time in the lab they came from.

Isolation transformers are your #1 protection from lighting by the way. I mean, besides having lighting rods and stuff like that.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #27 - 05/21/15 at 00:12:15
 
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #28 - 05/21/15 at 07:10:07
 
https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1366840825/18#18

wow, I've been waiting for this dac since before 4/26/13 apparently. Smiley

Palomino,  yeah I was jazzed about all this new (to me) stuff at my first zenfest (2012).  It was Maddog07 who was talking about DACs at that fest, and in particular the old Theta dacs, and how they haven't really been bested in decades.  just outdated due to newer connectivity options.  (usb, etc)    That's how I learned who Mike Moffat was, then learned about Schiit.... and patiently waited for Moffat's next masterpiece.   (did I mentioned, I'm a fanboy?)

So, another day of remodeling, with music playing....  Understand, i'm not doing critical listening.  my well recorded music sounds great.  I'm curious to know if others have the opinion that good dacs do bass better than cheaper dacs.  aside from realism, which I expected, i'm noticing firmer, cleaner, bass.  Is bass (low frequency reproduction) difficult to do right?  I've never heard of this.  

The only thing I really notice is some of my crappy sounding cds... they are not better, they just suck less.  80's rock.  example.  I lived in Mascoutah IL during highschool.  had ZZtops record with Rough Boy on it.  that song starts with 3 big bass hits.  it probably rumbled from bass feedback back into the needle.  On CD, that start never sounded right.  or good.  It does now.   Other 80's rock cd's I have... van halen, ratt, etc... well, they used to really sound flat and sucky on CD.  Now, they suck much less.  It's been a long time since I've heard them on vinyl, but this dac makes these cd's ultimately listenable again (on a highly resolving decware amp!).   yay, I've got one of my musical genres back!  :)

it doesn't fix bad recordings, but this realism this dac is capable of delivering, it obviously able to keep the cacophony that is "Rock",  in it's 'true" and listenable form.  

hope that makes sense.  It's been a long while since I've "enjoyed" listening to 80's rock cd's.  too flat and harsh and emotionless usually.  not now.

I won't be saying much else for about it for a while. I'll be busy and just listening in the background.  if I do have more, probably will start a yggy impressions thread.

yggy.... it's just a measly 20 bit ladder dac..... done right.
Smiley

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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #29 - 05/21/15 at 12:03:40
 
Wow, sounds like a good one. It's amazing when you have an excellent source, it transforms your listening when you have quality amps and speakers as you do. I bet Yggie, the tree of life, keeps sounding better and better day by day! Congrats!

Re: the bass. Probably all frequencies are improved and that has set the bass frequencies in the right spot so to speak?  I noticed with my PWD and then Mark 2 and now DirectStream that with each jump in improvement the bass, the mid and the treble all improved and were incrementally more naturally presented.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #30 - 05/21/15 at 12:38:33
 
LR,

Thanks for pointing that out. From now on, I'll leave all my digital equipment ON, through my trusty Trip Lite Isolation Transformer, a device I would not part with, ever.

Now I need to think about ways to cover them from dust and humidity. I always cover DAC , amp and speakers with plastic bags and a blanket on top, to prevent their exposure to the damaging tropical weather. Since the DAC will be always lid, I'm not sure I can put even the blanket on top, as it may get too hot?  We'll see ...
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #31 - 05/24/15 at 06:42:46
 

I'm interested in the ZBIT for my system, but not sure how it will mesh.

ZBIT has a volume control, correct? Could I leave this wide open for max transparency and continue to use my Tortuga Audio LDR?

Setup would be:

Auralic Vega XLR (digital volume 100) > ZBIT (volume 100) > Tortuga LDR volume control > Rachel single-ended

Empirical Audio offers a $3K solution for this, and I did not want to introduce transformers for that amount of money. The ZBIT looks like a way to play with XLR > SE....


thoughts?

thanks!
Jon
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #32 - 05/24/15 at 16:18:12
 
Hi HiFiTubes,

Yes, you can leave it wide open. However, in some cases, with some components, the ZBIT's output voltage can overwhelm the next component in the chain's maximum allowable input voltage. You will hear it, fairly easily, as distortion in the music signal. For example, if I keep the ZBIT at max output, the ZBIT can pump 4.5+ volts (from my DAC) into my vintage Fisher X-202B input. My Fisher doesn't like such a hot signal one bit. I can hear audible distortion. It's, therefore, necessary to back down the ZBIT attenuator. On the other hand, the ZBIT directly into my CSP3 or Taboo III presents no problems at full output.

Additionally, I've found, and Steve confirms, that Max volume is not always the best place to leave the ZBIT. Backing off Max volume a little bit (each case will be different) tends to yield a sweet spot where the music sounds best.

Finally, as for transparency, I don't  hear any detectable difference in the signal's "transparency"  through the ZBIT between half and full open settings (I've never had a need to go below 50%). But that just me.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #33 - 05/24/15 at 20:03:59
 
The LDR should handle it. I wonder what the output impedance of ZBIT is?
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #34 - 05/25/15 at 13:06:48
 
My current concern with the soon coming ZBit is that my Mini Torii has double the normal input gain than the rest of the Decware line-up: 1 Volt input = Full Power (as opposed to the general approach of 2 Volts = Full power).

This means my Mini Torii will be more sensitive to input voltage and I'll probably have to set the ZBit at low voltage settings. I just hope I would be able to dial in the appropriate input voltage because the balanced source (Yggy) is 4 Volts output and my Mini is 1 Volt Full power. How can I preserve the balanced effect while keeping the voltage so low?

Does anyone have any idea?  Thanks! (BTW I asked Steve to reduce the gain in my Mini Torii but he said it was not feasible without it losing sound quality).
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #35 - 05/29/15 at 16:34:29
 
Fireblade…I’m not sure I would worry too much about it.  I think the CSP3 pre-amp can provide up to 30V, which is 30x the voltage to come to full power on the Mini Torii (15X on the ZMA).  Now, I doubt you would ever run the pre-amp cranked up all the way and the volume on the amp close to zero, but it at least gives you a reference point.  The Zbit only has the capability to drive the Mini Torii 4X the voltage to come to full power.  As with the CSP3, you have the ability to control the output on the ZBit.  So, I think you’ll be playing around with the volume control on the ZBit and your amp to find what settings best suit your needs.  I suspect you might have different preferences depending on type of music and how compressed/uncompressed the music is.  My thoughts anyway.

Looking forward to your observations.  Cheers.  -d
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #36 - 05/29/15 at 17:33:15
 
My CSP3 is indispensible. Anyone, who says it is not transparent; needs to get the Jupiter Caps, better Cables and better Speakers apparently.

I look forward to using the XLR outputs of my Yggy, w/Cardas XLR adaptors.....then bringing in a ZBIT for comparison. Realizing that invoves another IC too....no worries.... .
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #37 - 05/29/15 at 17:45:37
 
Thanks, Dave. I agree and have thought along the same lines, especially regarding 'riding the gain'.

I'll probably work the ZBit output between 1 and 2 Volts, so I can have some dialing range in my amp's step attenuators, to spot whichever setting better offers weight and body or a leaner presentation, depending on the recording profile.

My question was more in the sense of maybe the risk of losing some of the balanced output benefits by lowering the ZBit output so much relative to the input (4 Volts). If this is not a consideration and the sound quality will not suffer by this reduction in voltage, I'm happy.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #38 - 05/29/15 at 19:00:54
 
Fireblade...I don't think backing off on the voltage will degrade the SQ.  You will still have the Jensen transformers in the signal path for that 'sparkle'.  In general, Steve's amps tend to respond well to extra gain, so you may be surprised that you don't need to back off to 1-2V.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #39 - 05/29/15 at 21:17:57
 
Right. Essentially, the Jensen transformers will transform the 4 Volts from the Yggy down to whatever I tell it to, between 4 and zero Volts (it does not have any other power source, so it can't do more than what it is getting from the Yggy).

But, if I end up liking, say, a three Volt input in the Mini Torii, this will dramatically decrease the volume dialing range in the Mini Torii before clipping. In other words, the lower the input Voltage going to the Mini Torii, the more dialing range I can use before clipping levels (or too loud).

Remember, 1 Volt signal input = Max power in the Mini = Full volume dial range. 2 Volts is half the dial volume range before clipping and three Volts would be 1/4 the dial range and so on ...

So, if the sound is unaffected, then I'll be working in the 1 to 2 Volts range, depending on sound response, while I keep a decent Volume dial range in my attenuators  ...  Thanks!
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #40 - 05/29/15 at 21:31:24
 
Quote:
Remember, 1 Volt signal input = Max power in the Mini = Full volume dial range. 2 Volts is half the dial volume range before clipping and three Volts would be 1/4 the dial range and so on ...


I'm not sure that's 100% accurate - I think that depends on if the volume pot is linear or logarithmic (audio) taper.

But I'm sure it's close enough to get by.
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #41 - 05/29/15 at 21:56:24
 
LR,

It is probably exponential, yes, but for the practical application it behaves more or less in that direction. So, yes it is a simplification, but useful enough to anticipate the issue.  

There's also a quote from Steve somewhere talking about the Mini Torii, that says something like: with a normal 2 Volt input, the Mini Torii will reach full power at half the volume dial.

Thanks!

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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #42 - 05/29/15 at 23:14:44
 
The overall loudness at any volume setting will depend on the loudness of the recording.  There is no standard for that.  I definitely have some recordings which can use a decent amount of voltage to get them into a good volume range on the amp.  And others that are so over compressed/brick limited which need nothing, except being remastered : )  

Fireblade...you will have fun experimenting.  Do you know when you will be receiving the ZBit?  Keep us in the loop.  Cheers.  -d
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #43 - 05/30/15 at 05:36:27
 
Why does the ZBIT have resistor based attenuator? Why not just make the unit passive?

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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #44 - 05/30/15 at 18:20:36
 
Dave 1210,

The overall loudness at any volume setting will depend on the loudness of the recording.

Agreed. But, this does not alter my point. The only caveat I have is the sound quality of an original balanced signal input at 4 Volts being reduced to within 1 - 2 Volts for proper Mini Tori volume adjustment through the ZBit. If my amp had a normal gain, the reduction would be much less and the original signal from the Yggy would be processed at a voltage much closer to the original signal at the same levels of freedom in the volume dialing.

Do you know when you will be receiving the ZBit?  Keep us in the loop

I do not know when my ZBit will finally ship out. So far I have not been charged, so I guess I'm on the wait list somewhere. I will definitely keep you guys posted on my findings, except these would be a mix of several ongoing concomitant modifications:

- Balanced input signal as opposed to single-ended input signal into the Mini Torii;

-ZBit participation into the signal path.

- Yggdrasil DAC as opposed to my current Audio Gd NFB 3 (20124) DAC

- Beefed up Mini Torii (Beeswax Caps, UFO Mod and Volume step attenuators) as opposed to original ver 1 Mini Torii.

hifitubes,

Why does the ZBIT have resistor based attenuator? Why not just make the unit passive?

I'm not sure I get your question, but it seems to me that the ZBit needs to be able to match any DAC output to any Amp input requirements, so it is essential to provide it with some type of output voltage (or gain) control, to adjust the original input voltage to the desired output voltage depending on the amp's needs. Plus, it allows it to 'ride the gain' by compressing or diluting the ratio between the incoming signal and the amp's gain.

Thanks!
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #45 - 05/30/15 at 18:50:28
 
The assumption being there is no existing volume control?

The Empirical audio Final Drive units are passive, for example. You can adjust to a different winding to get +6db.

My Vega DAC has a nice XLR output stage using their ORFEO tech based on the Neve console. I'm using a Tortuga LDR to avoid resistors, thus I might look at a DIY version of the Final Drives since I have a volume control.

"The Vega's class A balanced output stage is the same as that of the Taurus Pre. It drives all manner of loads. Its output impedance is a low 4.7Ω with a max voltage swing of ±15V p-p and 100mA of peak current. This output stage easily drives 600Ω without any measurable distortion increase over a 10KΩ load. This is actually a dedicated preamplifier output stage, not merely a high-current DAC output. "

The Vega has a digital volume control, so attenuation is best left to autoformers or an LDR.

I understand the need to match to something like a Mini-Torii, or a traditional preamp, but the ZBIT design is by choice, not essential....

Maybe I assuming the LDR will have no problem, whereas the opposite is true. It is still a SE device after all....

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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #46 - 05/31/15 at 00:09:55
 
The assumption being there is no existing volume control?

No, the assumption is, in order to be able to use it (in the Mini Torii) it needs to have an input signal voltage level that will allow it to.

If 1 volt uses the entire volume dialing range, two volts about half, etc., if the ZBit did not have a voltage setting on its output the Mini Torii could not handle the normal balanced voltage of 4 Volts without compromising the ability to use the volume pot at all, since 4 Volts overrides the amp's capacity to use the pot and will go from zero volume to clipping by just barely touching the volume pot.

In a normal Decware amp, the effect would be losing about half the volume dial, but in the Mini is almost all of it with a 4 Volt input signal.

In any event, the ZBit needs to be able to adjust its ouput voltage to allow for volume pot utilization in the amp and ride the gain between both devices, no different than the ZStage or the CSP3.

Thanks!
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #47 - 05/31/15 at 05:38:58
 
Right, I need to figure out what my LDR volume range would result in with a singal that hot.

thanks
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Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #48 - 05/31/15 at 06:43:28
 
Reading a bit about the transformers and that Steve uses them now instead of tubes in output stages I wonder if that wouldn't make a nice minimal pre-amp, or why would I need a tube based pre-amp? (asking without any real knowledge about all of this)
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- Stefan
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Rega rp6, Lounge Audio phono pre-amp, Lonely Raven PC, T+A DAC 8 DSD, ZBIT, ZROCK2+25th, SE84UFO25, Torii IV, Denon AVC-1SE, Infinity IRS Beta, Tannoy Cheviot, ERRx, Tiny Radials, Woo WA-3, Sennheiser HD800S
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Bottlehead
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Posts: 524
Re: ZBIT box (#002) - Initial Impressions
Reply #49 - 05/31/15 at 08:13:54
 
Stefan,

I ordered a ZBit last week, and before I did, I spoke to Steve, and asked him that very question. He agreed that the ZBit would act as a pre-amp, much like the ZStage does (no way to remotely control gain/volume, though). I'm going to try it with and without a preamp.

hifitubes,

I've been looking at the Tortuga Audio balanced pre (and Steve's upcoming pre). I'm wondering if it would work to have the signal come out of the dac and into the Tortuga balanced, then out to the ZBit to convert to RCA, and then to my amps. I'm guessing that it would depend on just how "balanced" the circuit is inside the Tortuga, and whether it would pass the signal thru at full voltage. Any thoughts/info?

Thanks,
Randy
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