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KT66 in Torii MK.3 (Read 31238 times)
maddog07
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KT66 in Torii MK.3
10/24/14 at 18:36:03
 
anybody out there have any experience with KT66's in a MK.3 Torii?  I know they are "stock" tubes for the mk.4... but I don't remember anybody talking about using them in a mk.3.

Are KT66's even approved by Decware for use in the mk.3?
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Lon
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #1 - 10/24/14 at 18:47:19
 
Yes, KT66 is safe to use in the Mk III. Steve even told me you can use them in the Mk II, and I have them in use in both my Mk IIIs and my Mk II.

I have tried TAD and Gold Lion and Tung-Sol KT66 in these amps and they all work well, I like the first two better than the third.

Here's a thread about KT66 and Mk III:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1385495950/14
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Dave1210
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #2 - 10/25/14 at 02:54:44
 
I would pick up a set of Tung-Sol KT-66 tubes to try out as well.  I am sensitive to high frequency fatigue and the Tung-Sol's are fine for me in the ZMA.  Different amp, but I would given them a try in the Torii.  Have fun experimenting.
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Lon
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #3 - 10/25/14 at 03:15:48
 
Oddly, the Tung-Sol were the "trembliest" and most fatiguing of the three brands in my machines, though not terribly so. Of course other tubes in the complement etc. influence the whole spectrum.
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Greg12
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #4 - 10/25/14 at 14:26:53
 
Hey Lon,

I've been curious about the TAD's so I'm glad you mentioned them.  How do they compare to the Gold Lions?  Oh, and maddog7, big thumbs up on kt66's in a MK III.

Greg
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Lon
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #5 - 10/25/14 at 16:36:43
 
I have spoken of the differences here before, but they are even more burned in now so here's the latest. Smiley

I believe that the two brands are very similar in sound. The biggest difference that I find in my Torii Mk III is that the TADs have a bit softer sound and a slightly less detailed top end. That leads to a bit of difference in imaging and sound staging, and I would say the TADs are a bit more forgiving and yet dynamic contrasts are a bit more audible (possibly because there's a smidgeon more emphasis on the lower frequencies as there is a smidgeon less on the higher?)

If you're really happy with the Gold Lions, there's really no reason to move to the TADs. I was in a situation where I had Gold Lions and Tung-Sols, a quad each, and three amps I could put them in, and wanted a third quad to try in my Mk II. So that was a chance to try out the TADs. I can live very happily with either the TADs or the Gold Lions in my Mk IIIs. The Tung-Sols are good, but my least favorite of the three. They have an amazing open mid-range and really detailed low frequencies, but the high frequencies are a bit too energetic for my main system, or the system at my parents' place.. The Tung-Sols are doing well in the Mk III in my bedroom system--I"m using a Denon DCD-A100 player there (for both Redbook, SACD and video sources thanks to the excellent DAC within that you can access via coaxial, optical or USB) and that player has a warmer signature, as do the cabling, and the Tung-Sols balance this out well.
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Greg12
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #6 - 10/25/14 at 20:48:10
 
Thanks so much for the detailed response Lon.  Great information.  I'll sit tight for now with the GL's.

Greg
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maddog07
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #7 - 10/28/14 at 03:37:25
 
thanks all... sounds like I need to try some 66's in my mk.3.  

Only thing I've had in it so far are Decware issued Tung-Sol EL34b's, Decware original JJ 6CA7's and am currently running cryoset JJ 6CA7's, all NOS RCA tubes in the rectifier, OA3 and OC2 positions and a National 7DJ8 in the input spot... I have the Jupiter beeswax caps upgrade...  this makes a nice balance for my current setup.

However, I'm learning that I can make the amp get to about the "same spot" by varying the combination of input and output tubes and leave the others alone.. once you find some you like.

its an amazing music making machine though... can't see me parting with it for a long, long time... at least not as long as I'm a fan of high-efficiency, full-rangers.  It is the cats-meow for this type of speaker.  There's just not much to complain about and it really draws me into the music.
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maddog07
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #8 - 12/24/14 at 23:55:03
 
Just got some of the Genalex Gold Lion KT-66's from cryoset... OMG... these tubes are built like the proverbial brick outhouse... they must weigh a pound a piece... the glass must be at least an 1/8" thick.  Three mica insulator/spacers, 4 getters, one each side, two on top... gold grid wires... right out of the box they sound pretty good - no harshness or uneven frequency response like most new tubes... with some break-in they may really be something special...!
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #9 - 12/25/14 at 23:58:50
 
I just picked up my "new" Torii III on Monday.  Steve tried a couple of tube types in it and sent me home with the Tung Sol KT66s.  

At first I did not like them, and used JJ EL34s for a while, but then thought I should give the KT66s more time to break in.  I am glad I did (thanks Lon).  A very rich tube.  I would concur with Lon though that they don't have as much up top.  Very nice mids.  I have to dial back the bass in my room with them.  Not as much with the EL34s.

I spent quite a bit of time "tuning" my MKIII.  Lots of combinations (about 64 possibilities at my disposal including bias, taps, input tubes and power tubes).  In the end, I ended up with what Steve sent me home with.  Go figure.

In terms of Torii vs Rachael, I find Torii warmer, more detailed and so much more volume I barely turn it up.  Nice body at low volumes though.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #10 - 12/26/14 at 03:14:05
 

That's fantastic to hear! I'm proud of being an enabler! Smiley
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Lon
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #11 - 12/26/14 at 13:02:29
 
Great news! You've definitely got headroom now! Smiley
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #12 - 12/26/14 at 13:52:04
 
Thanks.  Its always fun to go to Decware.

I also had Steve check over my white-top Rachael to make sure it was up to spec.  Once I have a chance to take some pictures and box it up, I will post it.  Kind of sentimental about selling my first Decware amp though.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #13 - 12/26/14 at 16:11:21
 

I probably should have had you drop off the little Zen amp to have Steve figure out why it's so noisy all the sudden. I still think it's tubes, but something could have come loose from his recent mods.

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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #14 - 12/28/14 at 15:48:28
 
Palomino, I am interested in your Rachel. Could you PM me? I cannot message you since I am too new here. Thanks!
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Palomino
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #15 - 01/05/15 at 16:49:30
 
PM sent.  Not sure you got it.
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Skyhorn
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #16 - 01/05/15 at 17:18:07
 
Hi Palamino,

Thanks for your message. I did not receive your PM. Could you try again? Thanks very much!

- William
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Skyhorn
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #17 - 01/05/15 at 17:21:53
 
Wait, I got it. I must have five posts to respond, newbie that I am. This is four.
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #18 - 01/05/15 at 17:25:33
 
OK I sent again with more details than the first note.
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #19 - 01/05/15 at 17:30:12
 
This is five.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #20 - 01/05/15 at 19:59:54
 

Palomino is good people - his gear is pretty good as well. You'll get a good piece of kit there.  :)
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #21 - 01/08/15 at 18:41:37
 
Thanks Raven,  I did take pictures of Rachael and even sent them to a few people who were interested, but still emotionally having a hard time writing that classified...

I am close to re-tubing the Torri.  Steve gave me a set of 6n23ps for input tubes, as a part of the deal I got a new quad of Tung Sol KT66s and now I have new NOS Hytron OC3s (thanks Will) and some cryo'd Valve Art 274b rectifiers.  The only tubes that are original are the OC2s.

I also have RCA NOS 5U4Gs STs which I like, but while they have a very open, big sound, they don't have the detail and punch of the Valve Arts.

Too soon to say how everything sounds but I think I am moving in the right direction.
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #22 - 01/12/15 at 18:42:38
 
It's probably a combination of tubes breaking in, amp seasoning, me dialing it in, but the bass is now fantastic.  Oh, and I guess I am listening to the El Caminos now, which probably plays a little role.
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Lon
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #23 - 01/12/15 at 18:59:21
 
Great to read!

My system is just thrilling me every day. I love my Torii Mk III. . . it's the perfect heart for this beast.
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #24 - 01/12/15 at 19:03:48
 
I thought you might find this interesting Lon.  

My 20 year old son stopped down to hear the new amp during the Christmas break.  I hadn't had it but a few days.  The first words out of his mouth were - "treble is too hot."  

I had it wide open.  I dialed it back about a 1/4 turn and he said that's good.
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Lon
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #25 - 01/12/15 at 19:11:56
 
Interesting! Smiley God bless the treble cut circuit.
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #26 - 01/14/15 at 19:17:13
 
I have been switching back and forth between KT66 and EL34 in the Torii.  

Love the KT66 for the richness of the sound - especially the bass, but like the EL34 more for imaging and precision.  

The difference in bass between the two tubes is significant.  Some songs still over the top with the KT66.  Maybe they need more time.  I probably have 60-70 hours on them.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #27 - 01/15/15 at 04:40:55
 
Maybe try KT77? I think those still use the Hazen Mod or whatever that trick is called.
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #28 - 01/15/15 at 14:16:03
 
I think Hazen only works with EL34s and 6CA7s.  

I kept swapping out tubes, bumping the bass dial up or down playing with toe-in and I am getting close.

I didn't realize going in how much you can tailor the amp to your room, speakers, etc.  I did the same thing with Rachael, but it didn't have as many variables to tweak.  It's like I am starting over.

The good thing is that this amp is so flexible, I can't see anyone not being able to tailor it to their speakers, room, even the type of music they are listening to.  Just takes some time learning what everything does.

Like last night, I put in 6n1ps for input tubes.  Sounded a little flat.  Put in the 6n23Ps back in and it got a lot more dynamic.  I think I am set now on the input tube side.   I also know which rectifier to use.  Valve Art 274b for the powerful and dynamic stuff, RCA 5u4g ST for more open, live music like club jazz.

I got the impedance setting down and also the bias position so I think I am done there.

I also know which speakers to use for each general type of music, so now I am down to power tubes, the bass/treble dials and speaker placement/toe-in.

I'll keep searching for a single all round system, but in the end, I may end up with two sets of speakers and two power tube compliments/dial settings, based on the type of music I am listening to.

My wife thinks I'm a bit odd, but I don't think this would be considered too radical on this forum  ;)
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Lon
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #29 - 01/15/15 at 14:20:40
 
The flexibility of the Torii is addicting. I could never again have an amp without the treble cut circuit for example, and the bass controls in the Mk III are excellent tools as well.

It has taken me quite some time but I now feel I have an all-around system that allows me to use one amp and one set of speakers for all my material, and I'm ecstatic about that and don't want to do anything to imperil the balance. Smiley I'm so glad you are enjoying the Mk III (as I knew you would).
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #30 - 01/15/15 at 14:24:06
 
I think I'm the only one on the forum that uses them but I love my PSVANE 6ca7-t (they are black not the gray ones) for power tubes.  I also have used el34's and they best them in all areas.  I bought a quad of KT66's based on you guys' and your info but I just can't swap them yet, too in love with my PSVANE's. They weren't cheap and yes they are made in China but they have done wonders for my system.  7308's with them are magical, very airy and open. Never had a problem with bass.

JD
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #31 - 01/15/15 at 14:52:38
 
JD, I really liked the cryo'd JJ 6CA7s in the Mk III and can certainly understand the appeal of the Psvanes. I would really be curious to hear your impressions of the KT-66 though. When I put those in (Tung-Sol first, then Gold Lion, then TAD) I just couldn't go back. Yes, E34L and 6CA7 yielded excellent sound but. . . well. . . the KT-66 are now in all my Toriis and not coming out! When you're ready give them a try. It did bring about some tube-rolling to tailor the sound just so but it was fun and worth it.
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #32 - 01/15/15 at 14:52:47
 
The amp came with a quad of Electro Harmonix ca7s, but two of them were DOA.  Steve's comment as he chucked one of them in the garbage was "sound good, not very reliable."

I have taken to using the two good ones in Rachael and I like the way they sound.  I haven't don enough switching back and forth between them and the EL34s in Rachael to see which I like best.

Which 7308s do you have?
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #33 - 01/15/15 at 14:58:20
 
Sorry I was asking JD, but appreciate you weighing in.
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #34 - 01/15/15 at 15:03:37
 
Lon, I will definitely try out the Gold Lion KT66 and get back to you with my thoughts.
Palomino I'm currently using siemens 7308 in my csp2+ and amperex 7308 in my Torrii III.  I believe both are from 1966-67.  You are right about all the tweaking we can do with this amp.  I'm not the most patient person but this amp has helped me because when we take the time and "play" with it the results are unbelievable.  
I've recently been dialing down my voltage outputs on my csp2+ when i play vinyl because I feel the music feels more alive although my volume pot on the torii isn't that high.  WHen I listen to my tube tuner I like my voltage outputs a little higher and volume pot on my torii a little higher.
Happy listening and I'm glad you are enjoying the Torii III, as Lon said I knew you would.

JD
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #35 - 01/15/15 at 15:15:36
 
That's interesting JD, I'm using Amperex (purchased on the advice of Mark58) in the Mk III and a Seimens in the front position of the CSP2+ and a pair of unlabeled NOS 7308 in the other two positions.  Works quite nicely. The CSP2+ complement isn't quite as transparent (when comparing the DirectStream into the CSP2+ and straight into the Mk III as it is now) but what bit of alteration it adds works really nicely for the Denon universal player and ZP3 playback.

I think you're going to like the Gold Lions.
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #36 - 01/15/15 at 20:36:20
 
Thanks, I am seeing some 7308s for around $40-$50 + shipping.
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #37 - 01/16/15 at 22:41:14
 
I took the afternoon off and spent it dialing in the Torii III along with my room.  

I think I am there now.  Sounds like Rachael (imaging) with more power to pump out the dynamics which is exactly what I was looking for.  

Super amp.

I ended up with the ValveArt 274b rectifiers, KT66 power tubes (I know I flip flopped a lot on these) and 6n23ps inputs.  I still intend to try some 7308s but it sounds pretty awesome right now.

Taps are set in the back position (8 ohm?) and bias is to the back position as well.  Treble is backed off about a quarter turn (slightly less) and bass is also backed off about that amount.

I now have a solid wall of absorbers across the front of the room with nearly floor to ceiling bass traps in each corner.

I put the half pipe diffusers in the secondary reflection point and returned the absorbers to the first reflection point.  I believe this really helps.  

Its no longer the wall of sound, its the room of sound.  Raven, you need to stop by...
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #38 - 01/16/15 at 23:03:06
 
So glad you have found the right settings, positions, etc. This really is an amazing amp, so versatile. I have mine set up (switch wise) the opposite of yours, but I have no room treatment and am listening near field now. Looking forward to a change this summer! As my newest Mk III has seasoned it has become a deeper, richer, more musical machine than I imagined it would be! My earlier III is even more seasoned and has a certain character that no other amp has. . . but that is in part because it does not/cannot have bass controls. If it did. . . wow.

I'll bet Eric is really going to enjoy the listening!
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #39 - 01/17/15 at 00:14:39
 
Quote:
Its no longer the wall of sound, its the room of sound.  Raven, you need to stop by...


I'm looking forward to it! Maybe this Sunday?

Quote:
I put the half pipe diffusers in the secondary reflection point and returned the absorbers to the first reflection point.  I believe this really helps.  


How do you mean, you got a photo? Maybe I'll slap together some of my own this weekend and try that out.
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #40 - 01/17/15 at 12:46:56
 
I'll send you a text about Sunday.

When you came over I had two absorbers on either side wall.  One at the first reflection point and the other at the secondary reflection point.  I found if I swap out the secondary reflection point absorbers to diffusers AND moved the speakers further apart the soundstage got wider.  More importantly it came out to even with my shoulders and even behind me on certain songs.

After listening a lot last night I continued to be impressed but two things I noticed.  On live recordings, this moves you up to where the band can appear too close.  Like you are sitting on the stage.  So vocals can be a bit in your face.  The other thing I noticed is those curved diffusers do introduce a bit of a ripple in the room at that secondary reflection point.

So absorbers help the imaging from the first reflection point and the diffusers scatter the sound from the second.  

I probably spoke to soon but i am on to something.  I need to see if I can take it back to a few rows out into the audience and lose that noticeable ripple on the sides.
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #41 - 01/17/15 at 16:08:50
 
It might be time for real diffusers and not those poly-diffractors.
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #42 - 01/20/15 at 17:03:58
 
How do you spell relief?



Anyone have an issue with KT66 buzzing?  At least one of mine is buzzing.  It's audible at the listening position.  During the day it had plenty of time to warm up, but still buzzed.  Then last night I went to shut the amp and it was not buzzing.
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Re: KT66 in Torii MK.3
Reply #43 - 01/21/15 at 23:58:41
 
10-roger on the 7308's.  I acquired a Cary amp awhile back that I had been curious about for years... it happened to have orange label amperex 7308's in it.  Out of curiosity I stuck them in my preamp and I was astonished by their performance.... all the detail and rez you could hope for with more refinement and natural tone and bloom to boot.  So I stuck them in my Torii to see what impact they had there - same thing - love them everywhere I've tried them.  I liked them enough that I ordered some new ones from "Uncle Kevy" at Upscale Audio so I'd have some in my inventory.  I have also found the National(Panasonic) NOS 7DJ8's to be pretty respectable too and relatively inexpensive at the moment.  The 7DJ8"s are my "everyday" tubes in my Torii.  For some reason I've never gotten around to trying them in my preamp.  And don't forget the Russian 6H23's either... I think these are Steve's new "fav" and are stock issue for the ZMA.  I have a couple different flavors of the these.... pretty good to my ears...
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