SE84CKCS vs SE84CKC

Has anybody got the chance to compare the two against each other and what are your impressions?  Are we talking subtle or WOW!

Thanks!

Thanks busterfree, with all the talk about the Super Zen in the other forum thread I'm really thinking about one of those 2 models.  I was thinking about the Rachel too, however the consensus seems to be in favor of the Super Zen.

Considering the price between the 2 is substantial and the differences are subtle I'm thinking my wallet would appreciate the CKC ... but of course it doesn't have the sexiness of the wood base and gauges.

Have you ever thought of running a pair as mono blocks?  The 8 watts should be plenty for most efficient speakers.  Albiet it would cost about $3200 if stepped attenuators are selected and that is close to Torii terratory.  

I can't recall seeing a Zen Select listed in the classifieds, but if one comes up and I happen to have the dough I'm going to jump on one!

+1 for the Super Zen Select. You can't put a price on the custom wood bases and meters. Not only do the meters make the amp look so cool but more importantly they are so functional and useful. I could have gotten the Torii Mk4 or even ZMA but I like the smaller compact size and with the right speakers, you'd be amazed at what this little 2 watt wonder can do.

beowulf,

I have the Super Zen (not the Select) and am a big fan of this amp. I've had the Super Zen for about 2 years and a Zen Select for about 10 years before that. I've been to Decware twice in the past 5 years and listened to all but their most recent Mystery Amp. Last time I visited Decware I went in convinced I would order the Rachael and came out with the Super Zen on order.

To my ear this is their best sounding Amp provided your speakers are efficient enough. My speakers are 101 db at 1 watt and the combo fills my 1,400 sq/ft open floor plan vaulted ceiling home to loud levels with no problem and no strain. So any speaker 95 db or better should fill a pretty big room using the Super Zen.

I have a CSP2 pre that I have used on and off since 2006. I purchased this when it first came out in an attempt to add more weight and authority to the low end. In my experience it's tough to achieve live levels of low end weight & authority in large spaces with only 2 watts. The CSP2 improved things incrementally but was not a game changer in my system and my room at the time of purchase.

About 2 years ago I went out on a limb and installed the HSU Mid Bass Module and that changed everything. The MBM adds the UMPH in the 50 to 200 hz range that 2 watts simply can not deliver and it integrates seamlessly. Just dial in the Mid Bass level required for you room and taste. Bass guitar plucks become distinct & clear, drums have great leading edge attack and voices have more of their own space. The sound stage just gets a lot more expansive.

More recently I have been using the CSP2 again in combination with the Mid Bass Module. One thing I have noticed is a real sensitivity to the interconnect being used between the source and CSP2. I have collected several interconnect brands over the years and a couple I tried seemed to dull the high end clarity somewhat which was not acceptable. Finally I tried a set of pure silver interconnects I had on hand and these appear to be completely transparent.

After sorting out the interconnects my initial impression was the CSP2 really did not add much other than an extra volume control. I had the Zen volume control set at 50% and used the CSP2 to adjust listening volume. Because my speakers are so efficient most of the time I had the CSP2 volume control at 25% or less for normal listening levels.

Then I tried setting the CSP2 volume control at a fixed 50% and started using the Super Zen volume control to adjust listening levels and this does seem to pull out more detail, especially in the mid & upper frequencies. Just seems to be more space & air between instruments. My plan is to listen like this for a few weeks and at some point remove the CSP2 and see if I miss it. One thing for sure is with the combination of the Mid Bass Module and CSP2 I can Rock Out in a large space when I want to.

So in my room with my system if I compare the CSP2 with no Mid Bass Module vs the Mid Bass Module with No CSP2 the Mid Bass Module wins hands down as the biggest overall improvement and bang for the buck. The Mid Bass Module simply allows you to dial in the right amount of Weight & Authority for any room and or taste. This really enhances the listening experience at low to moderate listening levels as well. Add the CSP2 with the Mid Bass Module and the CSP2 appears to add some nice icing to the cake.

My Super Zen benefits a lot from the ZSTAGE that is attached to it.

Lon is quite correct:

If you simply have Speakers, Super Zen & Source (minimalist system) adding a CSP does add some lower end weight & authority to the overall presentation. In my case I listen to Blues, Blues Rock and Classic Rock in a large room and adding the CSP2 did not entirely solve the issue of many recordings sounding unacceptably thin and edgy.

On the other hand back when I had 120 Solid State Watts per Channel the same recordings sounded thin and edgy then also. So solving the thin & edgy issue based on my experience is not about watts alone but more about where to apply them. For a long time I just thought many of my CD's that came across thin & edgy were simply poor recordings. Since adding and dialing in my Mid Bass Module these same CD's have now become many of my favorites.

My theory on why one or more Subwoofers will not solve this problem: I think the brain actually connects low frequencies from 20 hz all the way up to about 200 hz based on my experience with the Mid Bass Module listening to a wide variety of music.

If you visualize a horizontal line, the left extreme representing 20 hz and the right extreme representing 200 hz. Say in this example your mains drive strong down to 50 hz so you set up a sub to handle the 20 to 50 hz range and raise the volume level in this range say +6 db. At some point the brain senses the abrupt change in level around the 50 hz point and says no good.

In my case I added the Mid Bass Module raising the volume level say +6 db in the 50 to 200 hz range "Sweet". Then when I introduce the sub at +6 db the entire range (20 to 200 hz) is at the same level "Sweeter". At some point if you continue raising the volume level it just becomes obvious there is too much Bass and you just back it off a bit. So the Mid Bass Module is adjustable for any room and or taste.

Most music just does not have a lot going on below 50 hz. However once you hear the Mid Mass Module in action you will have a whole new appreciation for what level of detail is revealed in the 50 to 200 hz region. So as I've stated in other threads here if I could only have one (Sub or MBM) hands down it would be the MBM first. The MBM adds 85% of the Magic and the Sub the last 15%.

Unfortunately when most of us hear the word "BASS" it immediately brings back memories of a friends system with poorly integrated Sub set a a volume that shook the windows and just sounded awful. The Mid Bass Module does none of this. This excerpt from one of the few professional reviews online states things better than I can:

Quote:


As Lon pointed out I was comparing the Positive Effect of a CSP2 relative to the Positive Effect of the Mid Bass Module in my system in a relatively large room. Comparing the two the Mid Bass Module has a much bigger positive impact. A welcome effect is a very full bodied musical presentation at low to moderate listening levels as well. With efficient speakers and a Mid Bass Module the Super Zen is no longer limited to near field listening in a small room.

As stated earlier in this thread I'm in the process of re-evaluating the effect of the CSP2 in my system with the Mid Bass Module. My impressions so far over the past few days is that there are subtle but worthwhile improvements in the mid to upper frequencies. The test will be when I remove the CSP2 in a week or so to see if I miss it ???

DBC, thanks for the details.  I've learned some great tips for sub integration and placement!  I have an Audioengine s8 subwoofer ... I doubt it's in the same league as the Hsu, but it seems decent enough for the price I paid of $250.  I'm going to set it up as close to possible in the same fashion as you described.

Yes. Two inputs on UFO2. Two single ended or 1 single ended + 1 balanced. I went with a Zbit so that the balanced input is not tied to amp.

It was funny reading my earlier posts. I have a UFO in the queue now. I never thought I would do that. I really want the original finish without wood along with connections on the rear. I want the flexibility of a bias switch.