I ran some OB3's and the sound was milder and less forward. When I replaced the OA3's the volume increased slightly and the sound was more forward.

White noise is probably due to inputs. JJ E88CC sound good but quality control at JJ in general is not good. You need spares because you could experience sudden tube death.

In my experience, if sound stage is decent in a setup, it can increase with more clarity and spaciousness, also contributing to solving masking as much as possible. As you have probably explored, this can be adjusted with many ways in the room, but simple speaker placement can do a lot. To find the placement for the least offensive tonal buildup and frequency attenuation patterns can be pretty amazing, and where the best placement is can change with tube changes.

Ultimately, by reducing signal push, like with the OB3 replacing an OA3, offensive frequency imbalances become less focused and powerful. And speaker placement/room treatments, help to solve overlapping and frequency canceling sound waves...room-wide, and at the listening seat. Together with tube adjustments, definition and space can be improved, in part due to better definition, to solving masking, and part due to less conflicting reflection patterns that confuse the ear/mind. Less power in the signal from tubes reduces masking/density/thickness and increases definition, and speaker placement can help in the same areas...so they can go hand in hand.

More revealing sound from tubes makes speaker placement more audible, so changing tubes might allow new speaker placement information. And spaciousness and definition with room/speaker changes, and with tubes (also power, cables, vibration solutions, etc) can really improve the soundstage. The right distance from the wall to solve too much bass in the balance and associated, muddled low mids, can be easier to find (and change) with more open clarity from tubes. Speaker width, and subtle (or not-so subtle) toe changes can be refined being better heard.

It sounds like the OB3/JJ E88CC combo is less boomy, but perhaps similarly forward as when you had OA3s and 6N23P (pretty likely the Russian tubes you had)???

The OB3 worked across the spectrum, reducing "forwardness" bass included...it reduces the push and power a bit. So if the sound with this combo is similarly pushy as with the original tubes, but less boomy, the JJ inputs may be powering up at least the mids compared to the 6N23P, countering part of the OB3 change???

Reducing the push with regulators naturally tones down and cleans up the whole signal a bit. Bass build up being a challenge in most rooms, and excess bass causing thickness from the lowest bass to the mids, over-saturated, too big bass, sounds less dynamic, more muddy/boomy. By calming down the whole of the signal density and push, bass over saturation and masking is generally reduced, and the system/room can become more dynamic with better bass definition, sounding like "better" bass. By reducing the bass, it can sound bigger.

Since solving low end masking can be a big problem for soundstage, and the Torii can be powerful at it given challenging situations, I can't emphasize it enough. Since you had boom, you likely had low end masking leaking into the mids and blurring definition and space. Question becomes, what happens if you go further with opening the sound.

A good test tube-wise, would be to stick in your new OD3s for a while. They will take the signal density a few notches less pushy, and more open/spacious than the OB3. I would recommend this to help identify the parameters of your overall sound in your room, and your sound stage. If the OD3 sounds "right" to you with your present tubes, or too lean, this would tell a lot in terms of further recommendations.

The past couple days I've been enjoying some GZ 32s in my CSP3s, replacing 50's RCA 5V4Gs that had been there.  An Ediswan in the second system, not sure of the date code...it has a loose base and I'm reluctant to take it out just to look.  A 1960 Blackburn Mullard is in the Main system.  I like them so much I'm thinking about a NOS Matched pair for the Torii...LORD HELP ME!!  haha

They look very cool, how do they sound?

jd

Seems that the hum was being caused by a renegade rectifier.

I popped in a Sylvania 5U4G in the right side which reduced the hum noticeably, but that side still has more hum than the left. I will try some different rectifiers tomorrow bilaterally and switch around the power tubes

If you went from 6N1P your gain increase makes sense. They are quieter tubes before distortion than 6922, 6DJ8, 7DJ8 types. Are your KT77 JJ or Gold Lion...difference in sound in a similar vein there.

But generally, this set likely has quite good dynamics, tight bass, with open, articulate, and textured mids...very good speed, space, and micro detail. If after settling in, you like your sound in general and would like to take it further, your weakest link is likely your Sovteks. Better rectifiers with similar, but more refined character will likely notch the whole up.

Sovtek GZ34 are Mullard copies. Generally, though varied depending on vintage and construction, Mullard GZ34 are considered by most the best of the type and very, very good. So if you like your tonal balance, speed, space, density and micro information, etc, NOS Mullard, or other Phillips made GZ34s would take it to new levels. They can come with many different labels, different European makes, and even American seeming GE or Hammond, those companies contracting tubes from Phillips.

If your sound would improve from a bit less density, thickness and and bass, while keeping GZ qualities of fast, open, articulate, textured, spacious, with tight bass, NOS Phillips made GZ32 would calm the density and thickness down further, similarly to OB3 replacing OA3. These too are variable by vintage and construction, but this generally describes the differences between GZ34 and GZ32 made by Phillips companies.

After everything is burned in and the amp adjusted to get the most from this tube set, if you want something specific to happen, just ask.

Yes I liked those JJs for the most part when I was testing them. Nice powerful tube in the Torii.

I get the buying part. Luckily, my love of tubes solved my issues with buying new ones to check out. Not in a hurry, good prices, buying now and then encouraged the exploration. After years, there are plenty of all types to mix and match in different ways into all kinds of combinations of beauty! I love to do that every so often...sometimes pretty often, refining the tube set.

Have fun!

Sounds like nice tuning! This is why I love having a number of tube choices, to tune or fine-tune a set. With PCC88s, KT77, and GZ34, (especially with the lower key/more open OB3) each of those can contribute of open clarity, dynamics and tight bass. If too much, rounding this set down with the warmer/bigger/thicker Gold Lion KT66 sounds like great solution. Great tube in the right company.

I am always amazed. I seem to need a pretty narrow window of space, body, extension, detail complexity, balance, etc. But each time I change up a tube set, finding that place that brings out the best of all the tubes used...the combination makes a sound like no other really. Yet it fits my relatively narrow window. Once fine-tuned, the combination  with different tube influences, I hear/feel the musical beauty in new ways, with new excitement.

Confessions of a inveterate tube roller?

ok - so tubedepot dot com is having a 15% off sale today and that makes me feel like replacing my kt66's.  i'm currently running gold lions but they are a few years old.  any suggestions?

thanks

roggae,

It sounds like the Gold Lions are pretty good with your other tubes. That is a powerful tube, very influential, but also pretty variable depending upon the company it is with. They are a "big" sounding tube to me, and can be pretty fast and natural sounding, or they can be pretty syrupy and a little slowish depending on the rest of the tubes.

If you want the general feel of the Gold Lion, but want to shift more open, less "warm" and "syrupy," the other old school KT66 copy (the tubedepot calls it Sino KT66) would likely open things up. It looks to me like this is the same base tube TAD and Valve Art sell. Their selection processes may matter, but not having compared I can't comment on that. I have Valve Arts that look like the same tube as these "Sino" KT66, and they have a biggish KT66 sound, but less warm/thick than Gold Lion...more open/clear, and faster feeling.

This is not to say I think it is a better tube...just different. If the Gold Lions seem "right" in these areas, it is likely more right than the Sino with the other tubes you are using.

I think with your tube stash you would find any of these PCC189 and ECC189 to work for you, the prices have certainly been right.

Surprisingly the new Huron firmware has prompted me to do more tube-rolling; there seems a lowered noise floor and a heightened instrumental shape and a burst of new clarity. From my recent tube choices I was surprised that one that seemed a bit too "smoothing" to me before hand has become the best choice today: RCAs that the seller is calling Mullard made. With the Tesla regulators there is a nice body and dynamic nature to the sound and no frequencies seem to be favored or misrepresented. This pair was particularly cheap. . . I'll be on the lookout for another in this price range.

I'll try those 751C regulators again soon, I just have been seduced by the 0A3/0A2 combo regulating the tubes and with fresh tubes of both types on hand I find it hard to move away from them.

The Tesla surprise me. They seem to add a bit of dynamic range to the input tubes and give a bit of body to a dry top end. A fun discovery, and I'm glad I got four of them at once because I know I'll want a back up pair in time.

I see, the Mazdas look like they have O getters. Sorry about my confusion.

I think the "made wherever" thing may have been pretty common for a while for tubes contracted from other makers. I have several pair of old RCA labelled ECC88s, one saying made in Germany, and they do look like early 60's Siemens tubes...and two "made in Great Britain" with construction that does look like they could be Mullard. I also have some GE labelled 6922 gold pins, one says "made in Holland" and one "made in England." They have identical construction, using the classic Mullard parasol getters... so I am guessing the England label is right, and Holland not! I wonder if the "buyer" company labelled these, and someone screwed up on a batch. Hard to say on the Mazdas, but I suppose it is possible they were made by BVA.

I don't have any Teslas 11TA31 (I ordered a pair), but I hear excellent dynamics the Hytron OA2...they seem fast. I think the main difference with the 75C1 is probably that they power up the input more. This balances more toward bass, reads with more body, and gives a bigger/rounder overall sound push to the dynamics.

I look forward to trying these tubes. It is all fun!

Lon,

what is the problem the you're noticing with those KT77s?

oh ok.  i was mistaken.  honestly i am so confused by the naming for these tubes sometimes it makes my head spin....

Well i'm back at it.  I had a little extra scratch so i spent it on tubes.  Picked up some jj ecc88 gold pins, some jj el 34s, and some sino kt66s.  currently i have the jje88cc, stock 6x4's, raytheon ob3s, and genelex kt66s.  i'm pretty much always happy with the sound i get out od the torii.  it's just really fun to kind of pop in some new tubes and hear a very different sound.  :D

I'm new to the forum but have been reading through some of the posts since getting my Zen Torii MK IV a few months ago. It great to be back in the tube world and I'm thrilled with the music this amp puts out. I've been rolling tubes quite a bit and appreciate all of the great info found here. Has anyone tried 0E3s in the MK IV? Comments seem to cover the range through 0D3s but having recently come across a couple of metal base Amperex 0E3s on eBay I was wondering whether they are worth exploring. Currently I have a pair of Brimar 0A3As which I think are pretty impressive. I have 0B3s coming soon. Thanks-

thanks Will - very helpful. I'll hear soon what 0B3s offer, they should  arrive any day. The Brimar 0A3As bring a noticeable improvement in clarity over the RCA, Sylvania and National 0A3's I've been rolling. The rest of my current setup includes Valvo 75C1s, Telefunken PCC88s, Sophia Electric Aqua 274Bs and Gold Lion KT77s. NO COMPLAINTS!
-Norm

My 0B3s came the other day and I had the chance to roll them last night. Very cool sound. My initial impression is smoother with more ambient detail. A more ethereal vibe. I listen primarily to jazz, small group material. Some Jakob Bro and Arve Henriksen sounded dreamier if a bit less intense.

I have some Winged 'C' 6L6s coming today and while I hadn't planned to pick up any power tubes right now I stumbled on a review that changed my mind. I've been loving the Gold Lion KT77s but I listen to so much jazz guitar the Winged 'C's were too hard to ignore. Much of my tube rolling comes from curiosity rather than dissatisfaction. I love all of the nuances of sound that the MKIV brings to my life.

Anyone tried a 6bg6 in their Torii?