FYI For anyone else looking at this thread that is not on the Decware mailing list,  Steve said the new Mark IV  will cost several hundred $$ more than the III,  but if you get your order in before he updates the site in a week or two, he'll let you have the IV for the  current MKIII's price. Pretty cool.

Greg

Wow, some interesting changes and some great innovations. It's going to be a killer diller and a seller!

Congrats.

What is the price?

Grrr, I'd have to sell several of my other "toys" to fund this, and I don't think I want to dent one hobby to fund this hobby. Time to start saving!

Dear fellow Decware fans,

Always had my eye on the MK 3.
This is the "push" I needed.

I'm finally placing an order for the TORII MK 4!

Dear Steve,

If you are reading this, do I have to order the Beeswax caps as an extra $$$ option for the MK 3?

Or will the upgrade be done automatically, i.e. for free?

Likewise for the stepped Attenuator option?

Do I have to check every upgrade option on the MK3 order page?

Hi Lon,

Thanks.

I'll just "lock in" an order for the Torii Mk 3/4 and discuss the options later with Decware.

Now the long wait begins.....

Will likely pair up the amp with some new Zu speakers too.

The beeswax caps will come standard on the new Torii MK IV so you do not have to check that box on the MK III order page.

Stepped attenuator(s) will be an option on the MK IV just like on the MK III, so if you want that, you'll have to check the box.

The difference in price between the stock MK III and the stock MK IV will probably be around five hundred bucks, so right now that's what you'll be getting free.

Dear Steve,

Thanks for the clarification on ordering the Torii MK 3/4.

Hope you are much better now.

I was just listening to music on my CSP2+ (with Beyer T1) way way past midnight.
I just could not pry myself from the music.

If I were listening to the new improved CSP3, I might probably be put into a trance for the rest of my life!

Thanks for making such great audiophile pieces of art affordable to the "average joe" like me.

I look forward to the same if not greater musical bliss on external speakers.
I'd think I'll put the rest of my household into a musical trance when the Torii MK 4 arrives.

Cheers!

So, Steve...How about a headphone jack option for the new MK IV?

LR...Check Lon's post above quoting Steve's email.

From Steve:

"We are still running over 8 weeks, so you'll have plenty of time to discover the options it now comes with and modify your order if need be.  Remember, we don't charge until the units are ready to ship, so you have some time to arrange funds."

Neilwill,  Steve does not have a price yet on the upgrade.

I'll be sending my V-capped Mark III to Decware in a week or two, for the Mark IV upgrade, and I'll post as soon as I find anything on the cost.

Mike

Steve,  Thanks for the info!

Mike

Very Exciting Steve. Looking forward to more reports!

Dear Mark58,

I intend to pair up the Torii MK4 with a pair of Zu Soul Superflys (16 Ohms).

Nope, I have not heard this actual combination per se (i.e. with the Torii MK3).
What I have read from the Zu website is that these speakers were designed to be paired with tube amps, i.e. the traditional low power and high Ohm type. So in theory, it should work. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I am simply relying on the GOOD reputation of both Zu and Decware.
Will post impressions a couple of months from now when both the amp and the new speakers arrive.

As for what made me finally pull the trigger on the Torii MK4?
Some months ago, I was ready to purchase the MK3.

That is because I came across numerous posts from owners of the MK3 stating that the sonics bested anything they have heard before, and those are $$$$ rich audiophiles who play with uber expensive low power WE300B SET amps.

Now given what a progressive company Decware is, I knew that it was a matter of time before the MK4 model would turn up.

I sure that an MK5 ... 6 and so on will eventually be produced.

But in the meantime, I trust Steve / Decware's audiophile ear.
So anything that sounds as good or even better than an MK3 is a no-brainer, i.e. "must buy" audiophile item for me.

I couldn't help myself, been thinking of one for months, so price rise and new model is enough for me to jump in. Only hope the Mystery amp doesn't make sad, thinking I've gone for the wrong amp. Volume shouldn't be a problem, I'm thinking of getting Klipsch RF-7 II, at 101dB sensivity the Torii MKIV should have no problems driving them to loud volume, just hope I get some nice bass from those 10" woofers

Steve, thanks for the engineering upgrade notes and the pictures (keep those coming).  Will the MK IV still retain the basic design principles?:
All class A operation
Zero feedback
PP, but no ultra linear operation
SET sound as the goal

Thanks for clarifying my questions.  I'm pretty excited.  Please excuse me, I think I just pee'd my pants.

Steve, can the Torii MK IV get a headphone jack?

How about a red top?

I've never seen red wrinkle paint.

Talk about working with the customer; this is unprecedented! Go, Steve!

Steve....thank you!!  I did not realize that I was able to do that.  AWESOME!!.This is one of the many reasons why Decware sets themselves apart from the rest.

I have to say that my new ZStage put life into my music. It not only made me realize just how good the Decware product line is, but how Solid State just sucks!!

dalerf, what is a Decware Mono Preamp?

Hey, i read somewhere from Mr Steve (I'm 21 and from an asian country thus the slightly abnormal Mr) using the MK4 with janszens.

I'm currently considering a pair of speakers to go along with the MK4 and im stuck between the janszens or decware hr-1/ dm945. I'm not from the states so auditioning them is not a choice.

Im hoping for some brief impressions from the owners of these lovely speakers.

Well I finally made the move to buy the New Torii MK IV after reading Steve's reply.  While some of the features on the MK III are going to be eliminated, I am sure that the MK IV will be just as kick ass!!  While I will not be able to compare one vs. the other, I really like that the MK IV will have blacker backgrounds.  Needless to say I am super excited!!!

One question....do any Torii owners have an optional mono RCA output for a sub?  If so, is it worth adding when my Velodyne sub already has a line level input and output (in addition to a mono sub input)?

If adding the mono output on the Torii will alter the signal path and change the sound signature of the unit, then I will not opt for the addition.  

Dom

Thanks Maddog07 for the insight...it's greatly appreciated. My powered Velodyne sub is a 10" front/12" down firing.  Has nice punch and is perfect for my application. The two missing pieces are a good DAC and efficient speakers..but that  will have to come at a later point.

D

Well, if it helps (probably doesn't) I think it cost me about 600 to have my Mk III updated with Jupiter caps. A lot of money. And worth it big time.

Lon, are sure it was $600?  I had my MkIII upgraded to Jupiters for $300.

Not that this helps out, but the Torii III webpage "currently" shows a price of $250.00 for the Jupiters when ordered at the time of purchase, and $500 for the Vcaps.

I sent mine back to Decware last year, and paid $500 plus shipping, for the Vcap upgrade.  The shipping + box charge adds up, too.  I triple boxed mine last week, and it cost $70 to FedEx it from Seattle to Decware.

Sorry to hear you're still having a problem with your Mark III, Lon.   I hope you can get it sorted out in the near future.

Mike.

People do like to take advantage when Decware offers a discount on a new product.  

It sounds like you may have one of the very first MK IV's made.

You should have a lot of fun!

Mike in Seattle area

I'm sure you'll like the amp.  Remember to give it at least the 25? hours initial burn-in time (5 hours on, 5 hours off) before you start forming any impressions.  Things will change.

And having owned a Torii I, II, and now a III (currently being upgraded to a IV by Steve),  my experience is that it takes a few hundred hours or more before the Torii's are "mostly" broken in.

Lastly, I would use the stock tubes for a least a couple hundred hours, to get a feel for the amp, if you are planning to try out other tubes later.

Hope this helps!
Mike

That is exciting Scott!

The new treble knob on the MkIV might be just the thing to fine-tune your speaker treble control. Looking forward to your impressions.

Have fun!

What the heck, just ordered the Torii MKIV. I have been lusting after this amp for way too long. Now I have some stuff to sell I think....

It looks sublime!  

Now that you've officially confirmed the optional use of the KT66's, I'm going to order a quad for my Mk III to Mk IV upgraded unit.

I wonder how the cryoed Genalex KT66's would work in this new amp?

Mike in Seattle area

I bet I could heat my house with that thing! Nevertheless I want one BAD! But I'd have to sell a child to come up with three grand right now

Whats the point of using KT66 instead of EL34?
would it get more power out of the amp?

My MkIII is sounding better than ever, and this is part of the problem. If it ever went down for repairs, I would be hurting since I listen a lot every day and can't listen to my old amp after Decware.

I am afraid I fit fully into the Decware description: "therapy for audiophiles." So I got on the MkIV list the other day. After the Torii power through my HR-1s, the Rachel is just not enough for me with demanding music. It sounds amazing, but for my music collection and preferences needs more efficient speakers. After talking with Steve, the MkIV seemed the only logical conclusion for me for my second amp. Glad to have a look at the beauty! Thanks Steve. One Torii will go with my 944s and one with the HR-1s...How lucky am I!

I will leave it to Steve to tell us about the amp sound with the EL34s and KT66s, but for a little taste of the option....

late last week Steve said the MKIV sounds great with the KT66, hazen grid aside, and compared to the EL34s (also sounding great) each creates a signature of notably different character but both very good....both up to Steve's careful listening standards is what it sounded like to me. I did catch the "recommended highly" in reference to the hand picked Tungsol KT66s in Steve's post though! Sounds pretty cool to me!!!

I am really excited!

Needless to say I am super excited myself with buying a new Torii.  I added the stepped attentuator, but something is telling me that I will be in line for the KT66 tubes...esp. with that blue luminous glow.  

Does anyone know if the wait time to upgrade our MKIII is the same as buying the new model? I am tempted to sell my MKIII and use those funds toward the MKIV but the thought of being without an amp for months is scary! I guess that will also depend on the cost to upgrade.  

I'd suggest emailing Sarah about the upgrade and the logistics. . . .

Like many I am hooked by the blue glow and the shapely bottles.  That aside, I'm very curious if the KT66 brings more output.  I'll be on the fringe of acceptability with the stock 25 watts.  If different tubes can urge even a couple of watts more out of the amp that would weigh stongly in me considering them.  I'll be running with the stock EL34s for sure right out of the gate.

Quote:

We're doing one now and it looks like the bill is going to be around $700 not including tubes.  That will turn a MK III into a MK IV with cryo treated beeswax caps.


Quote:

The Hazen Grid Mod will have no effect on this tube.

Quote:


The Hazen Grid Mod takes advantage of the internal construction of the EL34 to make it a better sounding tube, and it does.  With the circuit changes in the new MK IV, the KT66 is a better fit resulting in an even better sound.  The presentation is far better balanced and you get the full range of the volume control without any clipping.  Due to the increased voltage swing we introduced into the phase inverter and input stage, EL34's have more gain than they did in the MK III.  The result is an amp that is at full power with the volume control barely hitting the half way mark...  it can be a little aggressive.

Quote:


Upgrades are typically a two week turnaround, however, if everyone with a MK III sent them in right away, the wait could certainly grow.

Quote:


Yes, it can ship with either one.  The TORII MK IV has a new toggle switch that allows you to adjust the bass to perfection with either tube.

Quote:


This is absolutely correct, the MKIV is a completely different amplifier with either set of tubes and it would be like owning two different amps.

Quote:


The KT66 brings a few more watts to the table, yes.  It also has less gain, meaning you have to turn the volume control to a higher position to reach the same loudness as you do with EL34.

Front view changes:



The toggle switches to the left and right of the volume control are the bass switches the control how tight the bass is on a given set of speakers with either set of output tubes.  On the MK III amps there will only be one switch that does both channels at the same time instead of two as shown here.

The center toggle switch between the small OC2 tubes is now the input switch allowing you to select between the two sources.

Neither tube is being run hard in the amp.  The EL34 is an easier tube to drive, that is why it develops more gain than the KT66.   The added gain of the EL34 would make using a preamp touchier than it was on a MK III, meaning smaller adjustments to the volume control to effect the same changes to level as before.

If you just got your MKIII upgraded to Jupiter caps will this lower the total cost of upgrade for your amp?

Kana,

Welcome back. Steve said earlier to order a MkIII and then MkIV build will be automatic and specifics can be sorted out later, with plenty of leed time before build time. The Jupiter caps are standard, and we know the KT66 upgrade is 100.

I would just put what you want in the message box of the order form and ask Sarah to let you know pricing details for the extra volume control as they become available along with the approximate build date so you can be sure all is well when it comes up.

This is what I would do anyway if you want to get a place in line locked in. Or call.

UPDATE:  MORE LISTENING TESTS

I had an interesting evening with the TORII MK IV last night.  I played it on my corner horns, which for that amplifier are a worse case scenario when it comes to bass at high volumes. Since the amp likes to put out more current into higher impedances, horns of this design can get a touch boomy.

This very tendency of the amplifier to sound boomy on the corner horns makes the other 12 pair of speakers in our listening room sound better than they actually are…  but nevertheless, it is the worse case scenario you have to design for, so on we marched for the next four hours with the MK IV on the corner horns.  

The new MK IV bass switch really alleviates this tendency with these speakers, so it was of course on the entire time.  And after shifting to more demeaning material, the positive feedback switch was turned off, dropping the dynamics slightly and allowing me to crank the amp a bit harder. Then during the acid test, I used electronic music which has wall cracking low bass at high SPL due to massive compression, I even switched speaker taps with the speaker impedance switch to the softer setting.   These three adjustments kept things tight and clean as the evening matured and the material continued to get more and more challenging.

It is interesting to note, that after four hours I gave up on the EL34's and installed the KT66's that I designed the MK IV to favor. The TORII's tendency to get a little over the top on these speakers had now disappeared and the amplifier became as linear as if there were feedback applied. The midrange and top end and bottom end are virtually perfect now, and at any volume. Nothing changes from modest volumes to louder playback levels and there is a very apparent increase in overall headroom and power.  

Naturally, this was a real thrill as I was well into hour five and playing my challenging tracks to see how well the amplifier maintains it's usable power. Suddenly this simple tube change made everything  twice as good, and I realized I didn't need the speaker impedance switch on the softer setting anymore… so I switched it back and everything got 3dB louder, even fuller, much deeper, and without a trace of strain. It was truly a wow moment…  

Things are getting really fun now… so sucked into the recordings with this latest bust of flavor, another hour went by and I realized I didn't need the bass tighten switch on, so I turned it off. Everything was still fine, nice and tight, but now suddenly even deeper. Again not a hint of strain. It was wow moment no. 2, and I have to say that things are getting amazingly loud without sounding bad… quite the opposite in fact.  (this is btw the epitome of usable power).

Another half hour went by and I realized I hadn't turned on the positive feedback switches yet. So, without further ado, I just turned them on. This was more like a holy-crap movement where I just stood there in the sweet spot of my horns in disbelief at the presence… not to mention the room shifting dynamics that simply felt real.

Ratcheting the performance and sound up three times like that I'd have to equate the experience to a drag race, where you come out of the gate with a nice wheel stand, wind it out and then hit second gear followed by a nice long pull and then hit third gear. You get a little sideways for a moment with the meat on your face pulling back toward your ears from the aggressive pull until everything is a blur… and you then float into your out of body experience. So, clearly the TORII MK IV is a competent space ship like it's predecessors all were, but this one has gears!  

Moral of the story, Tungsol KT66 = MK IV… Just do it.

Thanks for the update Steve. I spent approx. $1,500 stocking up on NOS EL-34's. Do you think there is an improvment upgrading the MK3 while still using EL-34's?

Mike,

I look forward to your impressions of the MkIV transformation. Who knows, those Siemens EL34s might be just the things for your "second" amp!!! Nice tubes, but not a particular fav of mine (I seem to like them all in the right company). So many things make up a system though so who's to know!

Right now in my room the MkIII with cryo'd Mullard EL34 reissues, Amperex orange PQ 6922s, Phillips 5R4YGS, Marconi OB3, and Raytheon OC2 is just blowing my mind...but the secret ingredient is the CSP3 with a 50s GE/RCA 5U4G-ST, Brimar 6BQ7As, and an ERA (Mullard) 6Dj8. My God, now I have 8!!! tube sets to play with.

I am not giving up on the EL34 just yet! But I have not heard the MKIV yet either!

These tests show that that amp still has plenty of flexibility available despite having different controls than the MK III.  That's encouraging.  Steve was doing all this playing with his corner horns, very different speakers than mine.

I wonder if any of those adjustments would be appropriate with my JansZens.  Those I'm sure give the amp a very different look.  Because of lower sensitivity I'll be working to urge the most power from the amp that I can but maximize the sound quality as well.  It looks like those KT66s will be in my future as well.  Exciting experiments await.

I'm fairly certain the Mk III to Mk IV upgrade will be reusing the original white aluminum chassis, after my talk with Sarah a few weeks ago.

Mike

Steve,  Thanks for your clarification about the EL34's!

Mike

So at what point will be have a complete fact sheet on the Mk IV, I am getting kind of dizzy flipping back and forth through all the postings to ingest all this data. I have flipped back and forth between biting the bullet on a Torii or just staying put with what I have. It's not a crappy system by any means, it's just that when I put the SE84SE and it gets broken in again, it's SO BLOODY MAGICAL within it's little 2 watt window. Now that I have ordered the Torii IV and am faced with selling off my pre-amp, power amp and dac, get the new amp and get it broken in. Need to break out my old preamp for the phono section (must use my new Decware SUT which is GREAT) which will be interesting until I can order the Decware phono pre-amp. Exciting times we live in, heh??? Thank you Steve and Team Decware for all you do!!!!

That is a good question. I like the look of the non-painted coils in the back. I would be happy either way but it would be good to know how the unit comes new and what happens when a unit is sent in for upgrade.

Steve has stated that the upgrade will include Jupiter caps. (Which is a very worthwhile upgrade for the Mk III--I've had that done and I don't feel inclined for several reasons to upgrade to a Mk IV).

UPDATE: LISTENING TESTS

Evaluations don't just happen in one evening, so to be objectively fair during this contest between the MK IV and the Mystery amp I am on night three with the MK IV reviewing material I have examined dozens of times on the Mystery Amp, and frankly the MK IV is so good, it's making it almost hard to remember what the mystery amp actually sounded like.  That's what you want in a great amplifier.  Clearly the MK IV has more bodacious bass rendering with an abundance of weight and texture, when compared to the more accurate Mystery Amp, but I have to say I'm not entirely sure which amp is actually more fun to listen to.   And if I remember one of my early posts that I defined success in the inability to decide which amp I would rather listen to on a given evening, then I have to say I'm at that place.  The MK IV is a stratospheric leap above the Mk III.  Like a magnifying glass on the music.  A bar that was set my the Mystery Amp, and the ensuring sibling rivalry that followed created the MK IV.

Frankly I couldn't be more pleased with it evolution.  I believe it's now at it's summit.

It's almost ironic if not funny to remember where it all started.... taking a pair of single ended air gapped output transformers and running them in series to create a low efficiency push pull transformer.

I found out the hard way that in the TORII circuit the output transformers had to match within a phase angle of .005% up to 100,000 Hz to keep from osculating into less than desirable conditions.  It was probably the coolest sounding amp I had built to date.  Sadly I had to build four amps just to find one that was stable enough to ship. The rare few owners of these blue Torri's will tell you how nothing sounds like them. It's a long story, but it just demonstrates why nature has certain rules.   If you bend them too far, you get into the Zen Taboo, Torii Zone and it comes with a price.   The first 25 TORII's sold cost me over $50,000.00.   So You can see why after 15 years and all these revisions, including custom output transformers, I am so pleased to see it finally peak, and what a peak it is.  To even be near the level of the Mystery Amp is a huge accomplishment... and here I am after only three days and having a hard time remembering what the mystery amp sounded like, shows you that we have a serious winner on our hands!

I would say for lower volume listening the pristine but weighty texture of the TORII MK IV is probably more desirable than the Mystery Amp.

Reading Steve's writing is pure audiophile porn. I love it! I keep thinking to myself how does it get better than a MKIII running a pair of Siemens cca's and a quad of 50 year old EL-34's. I know it will be worth the cost and wait… although I may need to attend rehab while my Torii is gone!

I have a MK3 with the Jupiters already installed.  I emailed Sarah regarding my cost to upgrade to MK4.  $450,  does not change the top to a black plate, that would require a complete rewire job.  1-3 week turn-around.

Greg

LR,  per the email steve sent out w/ pics of the mkiv on sept 12,  it won't be until after Decfest when he can update the web page w/ the new price.
Greg

kana813,

The Mystery Amp will be produced.  While I give the edge to the MK IV for lower level listening, the Mystery amp still sounds better with high resolution recordings or analog sources.

Steve

Steve-

I have a MK III Torii with V-Caps.  When I have it upgraded to MK IV would I want to use those?

Jeff

Dear fellow Audiophiles,

There will be an audio "Clash of the Titans" shootout in a few months time.

I managed to get hold of a matched Quad of the legendary GEC Grayglass KT66 NOS power tubes. (If you google "Tubeworld KT66", you can see what they look like)

When I receive my Torii MK4, I shall pit these against my matched Quad of Philips Metal base NOS EL34s.

KT means "kink less".
The KT66 tubes were specially developed by GEC/MOV (UK) to counter the audio sonics of the equally famous power tubes by Philips (European).

I can't wait to receive my Torii MK 4 and settle this audio contest once and for all !

Quote:

"Any time before we pull parts to build your amp.  Usually around weeks 8 to 10.  Send Sarah@decware.com an e-mail or call her at (309) 822 5255.

Base price on the Mystery Amp will be 4695.00 and we will go over any options and prices for those options prior to starting your build. -Steve"


Steve,

Thanks for the info.

I see you're using transformers on the Mystery Amp's input.

Did you know that Audience has a new line of transformers?

http://www.audience-av.com/parts/ait1_description.html

If you'd like to try them, PM me and I'll see if I can get you some samples.