Alright!  Be sure to let us know your impressions.

Likewise I had started out with three, but by the time my Toriis hit the house I'd moved to four. . . .

Cool!

I think for me they work best as close to the four corners as I can get them.

That's interesting, I played with the front ones all night, and settled on having them right under the front power tubes! Then I came on and saw your post, freaky!!!!

The rear ones are more subtle. I started with them near the corners, and now have them under the rear outward corner of the transformers.

Interesting. I have tried those locations and I get the widest, cleanest sound at the corners (but inside a bit as I can't quite get them right on the corners). I think it's quite true that the environment of the amp is an influence. I have mine on top a 4" maple platform! On the top shelf of a Mapleshade Samson rack.

Fun to play around with these.

The ZStand is doing all the heavy lifting Greg, so the Iso Cups work wherever they are. There. See how easy it is to explain?

Lon, LOL, I love that explanation! So, my IsoCups are are just cognitive decor. I am good with that.

Speaking of the racks, I just ordered a short ZRACK at 32 inches to complement my two taller ones. I plan to put it in the middle, and have it hold some of the smaller components that are pushing the capacity limits of the taller racks. [orangecrush, I have no doubt your stands are great, but my post and, I suspect, Lon's reply, were written with some humor.]

I got the humor

I do think though, that a good stand lessons the impact of the Isocups.

Lon, if you have posted it elsewhere, regrets for missing it, but what vinyl rig are you getting?

It also occurred to me that, since I already have Herbie's UltraSonic Rx and HAL-O III tube dampers installed, I could easily be past my point of discernible diminishing returns.

Greg, with the Iso Cups, the ZStand, the Herbie tube dampers. . .you're covered!

I didn't mention it actually. Last month a friend asked me to get him back in the vinyl game. He gave me a reasonable budget and I did some research, found some great gear, and I got him set up over the last few weeks. And it sounds damned good. So I decided to do the same for myself: a Rega RP3 with Elys cartridge and TT PSU, and a PS Audio GCPH preamp. I've got the stuff on order and it will start trickling in. Took all my LPS (about 500) out of spare room storage and got them out in the living room and dining room ready to roll. Looking forward to it.

That's great!! A music lover like yourself deserves not to be limited by format, if possible. You'll still use and love your digital rig although I suspect that when the vinyl rig gets put together just the newness alone will have you ignore your other set up for awhile. But while I'm vinyl first I wouldn't give up the enjoyment, variety and simplicity that my digital rig, whether cd, sacd, or streaming, brings me.

Enjoy!

sberger wrote on 06/01/12 at 00:27:46:


Believe me I'll use my digital rig. I'm one of those weird guys who has an audio/visual system, and I'll be using the DVR and the Blu-ray player every day, as well as the Redbook and SACD, I know I will. But it will be fun to revisit my vinyl again, and buy some new as well.

Quote:


I am right with you orangecrush. Though I have used both the front and rear positions before, I think this is the first for the combination. I had to turn down the trebles a bit, and up the bass a hair, but I really like it!

Thanks for the tip!

When you gents say "transformers" Are you talking about the smallest transformers or the larger ones closest to the right and left sides? I've moved the front to where you have them and the rear to the larger transformers. Interesting. A bit "tarter." I don't have bass controls, so I generally tune to the best bass, and I'm not sure it's here. But I need things to settle a bit to be sure.

Thanks will. I had the back IsoCups under the furthest back transformers/chokes for a spell and though that was very spacious and dynamic, the bass suffered. The balance was too trebly, and "tart" seemed the right word.

I've now put the back ones about the same position as the ones on the front, in line with the back edge of the side transformers and about an inch and a half in from the edge, and yes, better bass, still very dynamic and spacious. My previous preferred positioning was actually with a different source and different cabling so it was time to experiment. With the IsoCups nearest the corners I get a very classic tube sound, rich and with bloom. Nice but this is a nice change.

I've changed my lampblack "balls" to the old acrylic ones. To my ears these are the most neutral and "quick" with the frosted clear bases.

Right will, some months back Herbie moved to the new black bases and new balls and he states these do NOT need the bases.

You can still buy the old material bases and balls though. Click on the "Misc." link under "Contact Us" on the black banner at the top of the home page. You can find the acrylic balls and the high-end base by clicking the "Products" link on the black banner on the home page.

As for acrylic versus lampblack, I first got a hint when I started with my "roller-bearing" isolation support for my ERRs. I used a 1.5 inch concave automotive freeze plug with one of the Herbie's balls on all corners. I first used the acrylic balls I had lying around, and ordered some more lampblack to try as well. I got a very open and clear sound with the acrylic balls, and a very neutral fast signature. When the lampblack balls came and were substituted there was a lessening of the openness and a tilt upwards in frequency. That led me to experiment with the acrylic and lampblack balls in the IsoCups. I came to the conclusion that with the frosted cups and high end bases, the acrylic had a touch more open and fast character, the lampblack a slight brightness. Bright is an enemy in my system. With older IsoCups that I have (clearer material, with a gray "neutralizing" layer at the bottom) I really couldn't discern a difference.* So I'd say the acrylic is a bit more neutral. I could be wrong about the "neutrality" but it does result in what I think is a more neutral sound.

*But these bases are a bit slower sounding overall. Sometimes a nice tool for the toolbox.

I ordered the lampblack balls and the clear frosted cups with high end bases simply because I read several people say its a killer combo. It seems the super sonic hardball gets mixed results in direct comparison.

Man, just reading at your display of well versed, first hand experience-based accessory discussions, makes me wonder guys. This is such a complex field, that it would probably take years just to start getting a handle on its ever-changing essentials (as the technology keeps pushing new alternatives to try, all the time).

Under this perspective, isn't it complicating matters exponentially when you also decide to go for both existing sourcing setups (digital & analog)?  I mean, shouldn't the goal be to specialize in one of these choices and excell at it?  Isn't the whole objective to achieve the best possible sound, and if so, wouldn't you say this objective would be better served by sticking to one sourcing platform and optimize its application?

Shouldn't one invest time and resources in a matter that maximizes the chances of getting as close as possible to that holly grail of sound?  Do you really need to divest yourself in the pursue of parallel paths, which are theoretically aimed at the same objective?

I guess the answer to this question is always going to be 'yes, if you're having fun at it.'  

From a philosophical point of view, I agree with Pale Rider's position:  Digital is the best approximation we know of today to portray what the natural sound of music is all about.  Imperfect as it is, IMHO is well ahead of the peculiar physical constraint inheritance of the pressings era.

But hey, don't pay any attention to me ...  I don't intend to be judgemental, just thinking out loud.  Have fun guys!  
 

Orangecrush, Definitely a killer combination. Acrylic balls can be used for a subtle difference that may not be worth it at all, it's all so system dependent.

Lon, just relax.  I'm not judging your decisions, I actually applaude your initiatives.  What I meant was that after seeing you discuss sound accessories' positioning (.. an inch here, a corner there ...) for, say, the isocups in your Torii, I felt like there was deep interest in great sound per se, also.

Maybe you're not even aware of it, but you are a perfectionist from what I've seen in your love for sound details, and that is fantastic if you get fun out of it.  Evidently, this does not seem to get in the way of exploring other music reproduction alternatives for you, as I can see.  My mistake.

On the other hand, I'm entitled to have an opinion and I just expressed it.  Peace, my friend.  :)

Lon wrote on 06/01/12 at 20:11:30:


Perfectly said from the non perfectionist.

Look it's like I alluded to the other day. Why limit yourself to only one medium when you can have as many as you want. Vinyl requires more effort(although not nearly as much as some would have you believe) for great sound than digital, but digital allows for simplicity and also allows for, although not as much required, playing around to get great sound. If you want to. I personally also like streaming from my Squeezebox Touch because it allows access to 40,000 + songs from my collection instantly. Also solves some storage issues which is helpful for SEF(spousal enjoyment factor...always comes back to that doesn't it?). The bottom line is that you can put together a system that gets you pretty damn close to perfection if you want to for all mediums. Or at least as close as you want. Not really that difficult.

The takeaway here is that there are some very cool, intelligent folks on this forum, and luckily for most of them it always comes back to the music.

Fireblade wrote on 06/01/12 at 22:07:58:


FB, I certainly wasn't upset. I just didn't want your assumption that I'm looking for perfect sound go unchallenged. Of course I'm interested in great sound, but that doesn't mean one has to be on a perfectionist's search.

Yes, I had fun moving IsoCups around today because I got to participate in this with a couple other audiophiles, it was fun, and it would be nice if I found a new positioning that would get the amp to favor the bulk of my recordings. Interestingly, I ended up with the IsoCups right back where they were beforehand, that's just what seems to work best with my material in my room. I wasn't looking for perfection as much as I was "homogeneity" --- a sound that I could listen to my worst and my best recordings within/through/with. A quest for homogeneity is hardly a quest for perfection!

I know my family members and I know what perfectionism is in this family. If I were to become an audio perfectionist I'd have my house up for sale and buy 30,000 dollars of dcs digital equipment, and/or a turntable a billionaire would own, and I'd hire Steve to spend a month just working for me building me my ultimate amplification and speaker set. Or be on some spiritual quest for the angels to talk to me through a headhone amp and headphones. I'm far away from Armstrong/Cassler family perfectionism. And intend to stay that way. It already cost me dearly in my youth, and my veering away was the best thing I've done.

I just couldn't disagree more with your statement, it's not my way. I can fully respect it as your way or anyone else's.

I've already set up a vinyl rig in my bedroom system, I have an old B&O turtable in there that needs some work, and my PS Audio GCPH arrived and is set up. I also got a homemade preamp that I got off audiogon in the mail today, it was a good delivery day, and so that is all warming up with the Torii Mk II, preliminary sound is really nice. Not the best listening room, but that's fun too. My pal Dave is coming over soon to check it out, we were over at his house yesterday listening to lps on the rig I set up for him, some Crusaders, Burning Spear, Vivaldi and as almost every time we get together, some Miles Davis. I expect by next week I'll have the Rega here and a few cables I ordered, and will set up in the main  system and do some serious exploratory vinyl listening! Looking forward to it. It's my kind of "work."

Wow that looks great. Keep us informed as to how the sound develops.

Lon and Will's posts have inspired me to get closer to the music and have it become part of my life again.

Yes, it's sort of unsettling how "everything matters" when you get to a certain level of fidelity. But when it's right, the benefit is really big for musical enjoyment.

FB, this preamp. . . well it's no CSP2 or CSP2+. . . I miss a certain tonality that those preamps impart, or lack of one. This one has not quite the bass depth that the Decwares do, nor is the treble as refined. Pretty good overall, and it could arguably be still breaking in. And I might be hearing the lack of tube rectification.

I just bought this preamp for a "stopgap" use until I repair my CSP2 or receive my CSP2+ . . . when I don't need this I'll put it into the second system where its short-comings won't be so noticeable, or I'll sell it. For less than a third of the cost of the CSP2, it's quite impressive, and it's very nicely made.

The TT PSU power supply is a much larger external power supply/power regenerator for the Rega turntable itself. By all accounts I've found it creates rock steady speed control for the table (it sure has rock steady speed) and also allows switching between 33.333333 and 45 rpm at the press of a button and not a change of belt pulley. Not that I'll be doing much of that. This table came with it for a very little cost increase so I have it. (Saved about 250 bucks as opposed to buying it later). It's purported to improve the tonality as well, but I don't have a "before" to compare it to.

Photos below are internet photos, not photos of my equipment.

Rega TT PSU


Rega RP3 with Elys2 (not mine):



My phono preamp has a huge torroidal transformer within; don't think a power supply upgrade is needed for that.

PS Audio GCPH:

It's really a great preamp and sounding better today than yesterday. If I hadn't come directly from the Decware the short-comings would have been less noticeable, and I just put a better power cord on it (the cord used cost as much as the preamp) and that has helped. Also by the weekend I'll have a cryoset cable in from cryoset.com to match the others in use with the preamp and that will help. I shouldn't bad mouth this preamp because it really is something. . . and it's no shame to be a bit lacking compared to a Decware preamp.

Can't use the IsoCups under this as it has no bottom cover, and the half inch wooden frame really isn't wide enough. Using Tenderfeet from Herbie's Audio instead.

Fireblade wrote on 06/06/12 at 21:23:42:


Realistically, if it's the zone of affordable you want to remain in, probably you're well set, with power regeneration and cabling being the likely next projects. I had to stretch the boundaries of what was "affordable" for me after this point as I needed a better source to achieve my goals of homogenous great sound.  I bit the bullet and spent money, big money, and got taken to a level I didn't really know could exist in my home. I enjoyed the level before, and the level before that, because I love music, it's a necessary part of my life. I think merging my audio and visual system was also a reason I went for another level. I found that changes in power and cabling were quite visible, and the visible changes led me to explore auditory ones, and also meant that the price range went up. But the pain of the spending is done, and I'm enjoying the fruits and still coping, and now this new vinyl listening component is another exciting realm of discovery, with the nostalgic boost added from revisiting the lps of my earlier life. I've got high quality digital to listen to (and watch) and high quality vinyl. I truly appreciate the situation.

The feet can make a slight to a significant difference. It's rather situational. It's odd, if you have a great stereo rack, which takes care of a lot of your isolation from vibration needs, the feet still make a difference. I theorize that they make a significant difference for me as well because my house is 80 years old (as old as my parents!) and a pier and beam house, pretty rickety compared to a newer concrete foundation house. Just a theory. I hear less impact using the same feet at a friend's new house, but his system doesn't have the resolution mine does either.

And I don't really know much about the cryo aspect of metal cabling besides my own experience earlier with cryo'd speaker cabling--several of us years ago on the board had some wire cryo'd in a group project and compared to uncryo'd version there was a difference, a positive one. I decided to try to the cryoset cables as when I got my PS Audio transport and DAC I was able to hear the difference in cabling as I never had before, and I had many years of successful dealings with Ron Sheldon over at cryoset.com Prior to Ron's cable I had bought a cryo'd cable from Reality Cables which I found intriguingly different from other interconnects I had. Trusting Ron's ears I tried his, and I have to say these cables just have the right tone and dynamics for my system and needs, and the more I add the happier I am overall with the system.

Fireblade wrote on 06/06/12 at 22:00:46:


As I said, I think affordable is a zone you may have to leave in order to make significant bumps in performance. I don't know your amp, and won't comment on it, I have no experience with the MT and it's the one Decware amp I've never been interested in owning. I have not changed any caps in any of my amps, because I just am happy with their influence on the amp's signature and I trust Steve chose them well. Also, I don't want to radically alter the nature of the amp and then reassess cabling and tubes, etc. Tube choices . . . well there's lots of talk on the MT threads about those.

And I don't know how to evaluate your source, DAC, etc. I tried computer audio and didn't like it at all, and beyond taht experience i don't have any. We all also have different tastes in tonal balance and that is a large part of the "right" source. From your descriptions I think your source is probably going to serve you well til you are willing to jump outside the zone of affordable.

I think power regeneration is probably the most significant change you can make outside of a source, and I'd save up for that. In the zone of the affordable, I'd say consider isolation, it will help to maximize what you now have, take an edge off, and will serve current and future components.. . . .Then you can build on that with cabling, power regeneration and beyond as time goes by.

Fireblade wrote on 06/06/12 at 22:16:36:


Well, yes, I know about the science of cryo'ing metal, but my personal experience is limited to tubes and those two instances of cabling. The interconnects are clearly right for me, not sure if the cryo'ing has any bearing on the results.

By cabling, yes I mean all of the cabling.

Yes, I've had the Decware speaker cables for years now. The damned things took forever to really come into their own (were really bass-shy for months) but when they did they became the best speaker cables I've ever had and I've not been tempted by other cables since. I've practically changed everything else and they have shown me every change and stayed musical and detailed (in the right way, I am NOT a detail freak, but I don't like things hidden either).

If the Decware interconnects are working well with your source right now I wouldn't worry about them til you make other changes and access them again. They served me very well for years, and it really wasn't until I made big changes in power and source that I began to feel I needed different interconnects. They made really good recordings sound fantastic but I couldn't relax into the bulk of the recordings I have the way I wanted to. I'd hang with them right now and maybe you will even longer, they're a great design.

I have no complaints from the IC's, so this confirms one less cable to replace.  I've heard at least another reliable opinion on Decware's speaker cables and that is absolutely positive too, so we'll be saving for those instead.

On the voltage regulation issue, I forgot the Torii also has those, and I see your point.  I just would like for other Torii owners (I think Greg has everything, and this is wonderful, but not representative) to confirm this, that may not share the same atypical house electrical infrastructure that you describe as a possible factor.  

I'll also check on the duet power centers as a more affordable alternative. BTW, I'm sure Steve's recommendations included the isolation transformer and good power cords, underlying the benefits of the amp's voltage regulation stages in cleaning the noises imbedded in the mains.  This may had not taken into account improvements beyond the de-coupling/filtering attributes, that you have found.

Lon, I thank you for giving me a perspective.  I think you're right on the money on cabling and power treatments (aside from the affordable anti-vibration gadgets) as priorities.  I'll leave the power plant for the future and concentrate on those other more basic (and affordable) weak links.

The way my gear is sounding (progressively better with time), I think I will reconsider the ZStage and other components and straighten out the basics discussed, instead.

I'm appreciative of your insights, Lon.  Have a nice evening.

Fireblade. I agree with Lon and Pale Ryder that cables, power cleaning, and vibration isolation are all intelligent steps, each having "significant" positive results once you get into the finer details of the last 5-10 percent. And Pale Ryder makes an excellent point about the actual effects of good power improving every bit of the electronic path.

But relative to the origins of this thread. The Isocups...feet also effect every electronic part of your gear. Every foot I have used has a different sound, and depending on the piece of gear, the differences are greater or less, but always discernible. I played for hours over several days refining the feet, and foot placement even under my Mac Mini. Subtle, but not subtle if you know what I mean. Here I am not talking about 5%, but the difference between very real and very, very real. Definitely worth the effort to optimally isolate the Mini.

HerbiesAudioLab feet are really good, as are his tube dampers, indicating that he is a serious developer with good ears. Though I got tenderfeet for my lighter gear (and like them for my ZDAC and Zstage), I tried them under the Torii, and did not like the sound, or under the Tranquility. Too soft. But they were the soft tenderfeet, and as Lon suggested, the more dense ones might work very well. The isocups on the other hand, once I found the right arrangement and adapted to the way they reduced vibration and effected the sound, I like them a lot under the Torii. Detailed, extended, smooth and neutral.

The Torii is heavier than the MiniTorii, but I suspect you could get similar results as the rest of us with Herbie's highend bases, frosted isocups and lampblack balls under your MT. It seems three would be plenty for it. I could tell the difference between three and four on the Torii, enough to be glad I got the fourth, but three was really good, and  the Torii is heavy.

Since Steve @ Herbie's is the expert, it may be worth an email conversation with him about the sound characteristics of his newer, and slightly less expensive Isocups and Hardballs. Here is a quote from a post of his on AudioCircle " Frosted Clear Iso-Cup has been replaced in our product lineup with a newly-formulated black Iso-Cup and SuperSonic Hardball. The new Iso-Cup achieves a sonic result equal to or better than the Clear Iso-Cup w/Lampblack Ball + Hi-End Base, without needing the Hi-End Base."

Not having tried these, I can't comment, and as we have seen, there is the gear synergy thing, but the ones I have are really good. Isocups under the MT, and some tenderfeet under your DAC might be a really good, cost effective next step.

As to power, I have a Pi Audio UberBuss with a Brickwall in front, with a bunch of Alan Maher boxes spread around, and a couple Kemp boxes. This all came in a long progression. Not having tried the PS stuff, I can't compare, but my sound is off the charts all day, unaffected by power line variations. It actually was quite good before the Uber, but the Uber sealed the deal! Interestingly, the UberBuss rendered the Kemp and Maher electronic RFI/EMI cleaning boxes notably less important, but I kept them in in different, more subtle positions, now around the room, instead of in with the gear.

Pi now makes a little surge suppressor Buss (two years development, an effort to add surge suppression without negative sonic impact..the Uber has no surge suppression) that looks interesting, and is supposed to improve sound some too. In a little search I found the following posts indicating (if the time comes for you) that there may be good ways to go rather than the costly, though effective PS power regenerators.

http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=2124.0
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?raccs&1249671575
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=176

Perhaps some fun territory to explore.

Could any of you using the isocups post a pic I'm having a hard time seeing how these would look under the torii.  I know Herbie's has some great products just not sure I would fing this combo visually appealing.

FWIW I recently found a mint Power Plant Premier for more than 60 % off retail so the deals are out there. My first real attempt at addressing my power issues. Haven't received it yet and have no idea how it will help as I have no idea if my power needs help. But figure it was a good price and it can't hurt.

Thanks Lon. Yes the cables made and continue to make a very nice improvement. I really am looking forward to seeing what the PPP will do in my system but for sure if nothing else it will help with power cord orginization. Again can't be a bad thing.

Whoa not a P10. A gently used Power Plant Premier from a few years back. Can't jump into the deep end just yet.

sberger wrote on 06/07/12 at 17:25:18:


Not sure where I got P10 from (unless from your post and you've edited it). The Premier is excellent. You are going to be happy you got it, and at such a good price.

I agree totally.

Pale Rider, thanks for clarifying.  I certainly didn't get that the first time around, sorry.  No wonder I was surprised about it.  I mean, I used to think IC's were primary in all this chain, maybe only second to power treatment.  With your statement in the right context, I feel now my speaker cables are decent enough not to be a critical bottleneck, and although these could be improved, of course, I may need more of other essentials before upgrading speaker wires, like Herbie's aids.  No doubt power could certainly be improved but again, I'm not totally uncovered in this area either.  Experimentation with the isolation gadgets first may give us some clues.

Will, your analysis is quite sensible.  It is hard for me to answer your vital question, though.  I may not be able to identify what exactly is missing without being exposed to those virtues, first hand (reference).  I know the sound can be improved (as I notice it quite easily just by switching music sources that are recorded differently).  Then there's the never-ending, compounded break-in period uncertainty in my new gear.  Who can tell what would be the final sound on this setup, eventually?  I certainly cannot at this point.

Having said all that, I feel more soundstage and transparency may be wellcome.  Whether this impression is due to the break-in or not, it definitely is something I feel is still lacking.

On the isolation transformer, yes it definitely performs two essential functions:  Prevents surges and limits noise coming from the mains.  As far as I can tell, the Tripp Lite is working without contributing with its own noise.  My speakers are normally dead silent even with my ears very close to the speaker screens, and silence between selections is absolute, so I do not suffer from apparent humming noises either.

I hear you on the isocup feet, as well as those dampers, and certainly could try the Baby Booties, as these all seem cost-effective to me too, especially considering your collective positive sound improvement impressions.

Concerning the ZStage, I just don't know what should be first.  Maybe you guys can lead me into interpreting what I just mentioned about soundstage and transparency.  Now, to be clear, when I stream a very well recorded source, details abound, and the transparency is there, not so much the size of the soundstage.  So maybe the clue for you guys to interpret this is soundstage limitations only?  When the recorded material is suboptimal, though, I have some difficulty separating some frequencies and the music seems to be a little under a 'veil' or maybe coming from a closed container or something.

The potential of this gear definitely shows up with well recorded material, naturally, but the key here would be to extend some of that potential to the bulk of recordings.  Whether break-in, lacking isolation, power nuances, inefficient cabling or foregone benefits of a ZStage is what I could not pinpoint.  Maybe you have a better idea about it.

Finally, as you put it very well, we have not even discussed tubes. I was under the impression tubes may change colors, tones and timbres, but not sound quality per se.  I think what I'm missing relates more to essentials than to these rather more esoteric shades of playback sound.

In the end, a better USB/DAC may be the answer, but I suspect it to be still far up in the evolution yet, as it would not compensate for essentials missing.  So I'm almost back to block one, except for the isolation devices.  BTW, are dampers for the output tubes only (or maybe also the drivers)?

Will, I see you are inclined to suggest the ZStage, assuming no major essential drawbacks.  I give you my earlier sound evaluation for you to maybe confirm or discard that statement.  Thanks again for your insights and patience.  
 

First, your lack of hum could easily indicate decent power, though the intricacies from VERY clean power may improve the finer details.

Second, from your description of sound, how many hours would you guess are on your amp? Could be burnin that is creating the "veil" ...could be source too, but those reviews you posted links about your DAC make it sound pretty good. Then the computer IS part of your source...could be it. Might try some feet under it too. If it is not source, I suspect room is your problem.

And room can be treated in different ways. Speaker placement experimentation is the easiest first choice. The old rules are not always right for a given situation either. In my room, where my speakers need to be (in the center of a wide room, and only 6-7 feet apart) I prefer a very slight toe out from straight on. Not that this is what you need, but to make a point, this is the best way to cancel reflection and resonant issues in this setting, improving image and frequency balance. My soundstage and ability to get great sound from many recording qualities is truly amazing.

Also out from the wall.... and with my room, small changes really matter. An inch here or there....very slight toe changes.

Veils sound like something is killing the mid and upper mids...either too much low mid, or not enough mids and highs.

I am no room expert by any means, but here is a take...If it is low mids, and you are handy, you could make some bass traps. Does your bass sound muddled? And don't forget that comb filtering can happen too, where certain frequency wave forms counter one another creating cancelation. This is where the higher frequency and diffusion treatments come in.

That is a labyrinth though, so I would try speaker placement first...extensive experimentation. This can make a not so perfect room sound pretty good if you are lucky.

I think the Zstage will enhance what you have, including soundstage, but I don't think it is a silver bullet for sound stage. But like Lon said, it will help tailor your overall sound. This could clarify things enough to improve soundstage. We know your amp and speakers are capable of great imaging given a relatively true source and a room that will allow this.

I have always had a good soundstage, but many things have improved it. A Kemp Schumann Resonator is designed to help this and did for me...can't say if it would for you. Also to avoid extensive treatments in my living room, I use Synergistic Research Art Basic. These things may or may not help you, but they did here. We are back to the money thing though.

And tubes...they can make a real mark for sorting out detail to tastes, which in turn can enhance sound stage if density is a problem with your sound, but that is a big playground too. I suppose you could look at the MT threads and see if there is some really good, reasonably priced, and revealing input tube to try. If you get into tubes, it never hurts to have some choices around.

But look at burnin time and speaker placement.

Like Lon, I find the dampers best on the inputs, but I like them on the power tubes, and rectifiers too. I do not use them on VRs. Feet will will cut vibration in the tubes too, so you could start there. But direct tube damping is definitely a good tool.

Quote:


This does not sound right. Even with poor recordings, there is no evidence in my system of the sound coming from the speakers. They literally have no apparent part in the sound. And the sound stage varies with recordings, but is always wide and deep relative to the speaker placement.

Tight bass sounds like a good sign. And the best recordings will always sound good as the detail information and balance is more complete, but relatively speaking, bad ones should sound good too.

18-20 inches from the wall is pretty close. It might be interesting just to pull them out to 2.5-3 feet for fun and see if anything changes.

The side wall proximity can effect sound, but a lot of the room stuff is proportions...how the various frequencies bounce around and what happens in that process...heightening some frequencies and reducing others. I thin this is in part what the talk about first reflections is about. they can bounce around pretty fast at important frequencies, so much so, that the mind can't tell where the sound is coming from simply because the wrong reflections sound like the real thing and confuse the image. Offending bounces can be changed some with speaker placement and toe.

80-100 hours is light for burnin, but I think you should be beginning to hear where the sound is going. Even with the Mundorfs. Looking at the real potential, it will get much better over more time though. I think my Mundorfs kept improving for many hundreds of hours, but they always sounded pretty good. Same for the amp and speakers, though I agree with you, the bass drivers loosening up will really be nice.

Your report makes me want to look even more at speaker placement. Width, toe, depth.

It's hard for me to say as my ERRs are so different a design, and their casting of the sound everywhere a different method of getting the sound out there, but I agree about getting them as far INTO the room as you can as a comparison starting point--I think that will help with the depth and may help with width as well. And I think you need about three times the hours you have so far before the amp really opens up and that you'll get more sound-staging from that point on.

And as you get hours on, and starting now, I'd try toeing in the speakers bit by bit. That should both fill the center more, and spread some sound away from the speakers' outer edges.

For JD:

Thanks Orangecrush almost seems as though the amp is floating. I can really see how they would isolate the amp from any vibration at all...very cool

Interesting. I listen to many of the same sort of recordings (and possibly even earlier, into the teens and twenties) and I haven't had to toe out . . .but all our rooms are different.

Should you discover that moving the furniture out into the room makes a sizable improvement, the "Fat Gliders" from Herbie are awesome, they'll not only help the sound from isolation but make it very simple (and relatively quiet) to move furniture or racks about. I have them on the bottom of my turntable stand (which is an old heavy maple piece) and my TV rack (a large cedar piece) and I can move these effortlessly on carpet or flooring.

Little Fat Gliders and Big Fat Gliders are located on this page:

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm

I think you can probably get it without having to move the furniture much...using care for aesthetics, but prioritized toward the best sound. My speakers slowly came out as I adjusted the rest of the furniture in fairly minute ways to achieve visual balance.

If moving the gear table out helps, you can probably do a lot to solve this with vibration control, leaving it close to where it is.

My toe out is only fractional. Perhaps a quarter inch (the speakers look almost straight on), and every quarter inch matters, for refining both soundstage and focus. My reference to inches was in width and depth, but whatever works! Your experience with detail makes sense to me since the speakers are close together and these tweeters have such a beautifully wide presentation.

I am still concerned about the upward angle, though this could be meaningless. But we do rely on good room reflection to create the live sound and this angle in your already complex wall arrangement, could be having a negative effect???. I wonder, just for testing purposes if you could devise a way to get the speakers higher and level with the tweeter at roughly ear level.

Also, since you are close to the wall, decoupling the speakers from your stands is probably a good idea.

But I still speculate that room/speaker placement may be at the core and that all vibration stuff will be icing on the cake...thick icing though.

Ha Ha!  I just finished my first test session and noticed my spelling on those 'leather coaches'  ... they're really not basketball trainers with a music passion wearing leather jackets and standing in the middle of my living room, they really are couches, sorry!  

Kept the furniture's original postion in place, just for comparison to last night.  I can say I don't feel I have apparent power issues as night and day behave the same (although I've not played the gear during Frank Sinatra's 'small wee hours' yet).  Everything that went ok last night behaved the same noon time.

My currenty preferred toe-out is just a few degrees out, which, if you estimate the distance traveled by a fixed point on the speaker's bottom square rim it would be close to a 5/8" displacement or so.  No details lost, a continuum of images between speakers ... just fine!

I stll miss some soundstage depth and width (as it stays within that tunnel between speakers, going back just a little for some instruments, usually bass and drums.)  This may indicate the need to displace the speakers further into the room, indeed.  That's my next test later on.

Lon, thanks for clarifying that the eventual gliders won't interfere with the vibration isolation from Herbie's feet and such.  I was about to ask that.  I thought the floor was the anchoring objective in eliminating vibrations, as spikes do on stand alone speakers?  Maybe those gliders make a better contact with the floor, I presume?

I've been considering moving the gear to a spare room.  Problem is, it is too symetrical (almost square area with same walls and a lower ceiling, and I would need to isolate everything there, including the floor.  I'm afraid it may sound somewhat 'boxy' in there.

Will wrote:

Also, since you are close to the wall, decoupling the speakers from your stands is probably a good idea.

Could you elaborate on this?  I don't have stands, just short ramps with the same footprint of the speakers.  These measure 2" up front and 1" on back and they rest on the furniture table as everything else.  Do you refer to these as stands in your statement? My concern with the back wall proximity is the bass hitting the wall too close through the back ports.  I could even dampen those ports with some material in it maybe?  Or is it also that the higher frequencies are involved in this back wall closeness problem? BTW, my bass may be improved, but so far I don't complain.

Lon, I could never bring the speakers that far into the room.  I know what you mean, but unless I buy 20" monitor stands and place the speakers among the furniture in that livingroom, moving them in and out every listening session ... besides, the wife won't buy it!     Actually, she has suggested having my gear setup in that other room (sort of out of the way   )  Seriously, though, I may want to try that if this does not improve as I'm expecting.

Will, I'll do my best to improve placement conditions, but I'm also considering Herbie's isolators as a potential added benefit.

Thanks again for your support, guys, you have been great!  I'll let you know the results on that furniture displacement test.

I see now the set up. One table, all gear, with speakers on ramps on the table. What I meant by decoupling the speakers is even more important now. Before I thought they were on their own ramped stands. But since they are on the gear table, their vibrations are effecting the amp and the tubes. So I think isolation is extra important in your setting.

Lon has a good idea... describe your gear table to Steve at Herbies and see what he recommends. The reason I thought the speakers would improve with decoupling is that the closer we are to walls and corners it seems bass can build up while vibrting the gear and speakers. I think with this setup, by isolating the speakers, the ramps, the amp, the DAC, and computer, you will likely have a big change.

It seems you can't go wrong with vibration control.

My speakers are close to the wall too in a weird kind of way...the wall has multiple levels working in and out. In a roughly 6.5w x 6.5 tall alcove, that is about 3' deep on one side and 2' deep on the other, is my gear cabinet (about 6'h x 4.5'w x 1.5'd old teak). The speakers are in front at the outer edges of the alcove. Directly behind the speakers (in the alcove) THAT wall is a bit over 3 feet behind the speaker backs. But the very close and adjacent bit of wall on the right, the speaker back is about at wall level... and on the left, the speaker is out a foot or so from that wall. Confused yet?

Of course I had problems with bass in the alcove that needed solving, for which I took several approaches, including modding the speakers by decreasing the plinth space, adding deflex panels to cut interior resonance, putting a few Marigo resonance damping dots on the bass drivers and radials, and cap rolling. This worked toward a cleaner low mid and bass.

This makes me think your thought of playing with the ports on your speakers would be interesting. If the speaker proximity causes the low mids/bass to slightly overwhelm the mids and highs, this could muddle your sound stage and give a sense of veils on lesser recordings.

Also for me, more traditional room treatments helped, but the Kemp boxes and Art Basik treatments are undoubtedly a big part of my sound and sound stage, the basiks diminishing reflections at critical points, and the EMI and Schumann Resonance boxes doing things I don't understand, but I hear them.

Anyway, I had a difficult setting to work with too, and with my MG 944s and with my HR-ONEs (at least with this room's attributes) I was able to get very real sound, and a really excellent, saturated sound stage. On big recordings the actual players can spread out 30 feet wide and 12-15 deep, beyond the walls, with ambient information going and going and going.

I go on like this because my situation that could not work theoretically, works exceptionally after a lot of experimentation.

I don't know how much vibration control will help, but I suspect a lot.

I think I would fully explore the speaker placement, with optimal vibration control, within your chosen space first. The ramps may be fine. Or you may need to level. I really would try the speakers level, and at the right height, perhaps making toe and width tweaking easier also. Or perhaps with new stands, you can find a permanent position that sounds great, even if a little close to the wall.

But here are some good things to look at:

https://www.decware.com/paper36.htm
https://www.decware.com/paper14.htm
https://www.decware.com/paper39.htm

"The room" seems like an alternative that is worth exploring. It is The Wife's hidden message to get this gear into one place.

FB,

I said the ramps MAY BE fine (with proper vibration control). And I said "within your chosen space" meaning room, not the exact location. The exact location clearly has issues. But we don't know how much of the trouble is vibration until you solve that, and you could likely decouple things pretty well while giving good vibration resolution with the right tools. I continue to speculate that the down and dirty soundstage stuff is more speaker placement and/or room though. And though I can't explain why, intuitively I have never liked the ramp concept. This is why I keep pointing to level explorations and stands.

The reason I suggested exploring within the room you are in, and with adjusting that general arrangement, is that you chose this in the first place, and that you may be invested in it for various reasons. And it may be possible to adjust this without a lot of messing around like moving the speakers each session, particularly if you can get the speakers on stands.

For myself and my wife, though we have no room for a dedicated listening room, we much prefer having the system in our main living areas because music is a big part of our day, "passive" and serious listening happening a lot. So against odds, I made our living room a dedicated listening room that sounds brilliant, and looks pretty much like a living room.

The links are all about setting up the other room, though the information can be used in your current room. That would be the obvious "audiophile" choice as RR suggests. If the gear or music is a problem where it is, and there is no downside, the dedicated room could be treated aesthetically as such...a music listening room with whatever you need for a good sound room.

I like the idea of the stands and think this is a good move no matter what, but I suspect that some decoupling from them will be good too, either spikes, or one of Herbie's decoupling dots under the speakers and/or decoupling under the stands. I have always found my speakers sound notably better on spikes than not, even with plinths.

Getting up with Herbie's and getting that thing going will be a good move no matter if the gear stays in the room it is in, or moves to a dedicated environment.

Good Luck with it...you will get there.